Defining GFE

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kitsune

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I've been meaning to start this thread for a while, and Tarrus' recent question (what does GFE mean exactly?), along with the responses it drew, gave me the final push. I'm starting a new thread as I think it is more useful for TAG'ers if the subject accurately reflects the content.

For reference, here's the original thread:

http://forum.tokyoadultguide.com/escort-service-reviews/5844-review-yuko-am.html

The question made me think of a line from a Lewis Carroll story, where Humpty Dumpty says something like "when I use a word, it means exactly what I mean it to mean, no more and no less". It also makes me think of the American judge who said that he couldn't precisely define pornography, but he knows it when he sees it.

As meiji points out, there is no standard definition, so it means different things to different people. But there must be some overlap in our definitions, or else we wouldn't be able to communicate using the term, so maybe we can tease out the overlap.

I think Tarrus hinted at the answer (at least, for me) when he said "it has always been better with the girlfriend". Why? I think it's because she is personally invested in the act, it is a shared experience, she wants to be there, and she is enjoying it. Of course, for any given couple, several of these assertions could prove to be wrong, but I think this captures the general case.

Of course, p4p providers are, by definition, different than the girlfriend we are describing here, although I think the line could blur if you were to accumulate enough history with the same provider. However, let's set that aside for now.

In a previous review, I said that a particular girl provides the quintessential GFE. What I meant is that it feels like she really likes me, and like she really enjoys what we are doing together. I've also said that it doesn't matter if this is an act, because it is indistinguishable (for me) from the real thing. To me, that defines GFE.
 
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kitsune said:
I've been meaning to start this thread for a while, and Tarrus' recent question (what does GFE mean exactly?), along with the respsonses it drew, gave me the final push. I'm starting a new thread as I think it is more useful for TAG'ers if the subject accurately reflects the content.

For reference, here's the original thread:

http://forum.tokyoadultguide.com/escort-service-reviews/5844-review-yuko-am.html

The question made me think of line from Lewis Carroll story, where Humpty Dumpty says something like "when I use a word, it means exactly what I mean it to mean, no more and no less". It also makes me think of the American judge who said that he couldn't precisely define pornography, but he knows it when he sees it.

As meiji points out, there is no standard definition, so it means different things to diffent people. But there must be some overlap in our definitions, else we wouldn't be able to communicate using the term, so maybe we can tease out the overlap.

I think Tarrus hinted at the answer (at least, for me) when he said "it has always been better with the girlfriend". Why? I think it's because she is personally invested in the act, it is a shared experience, she wants to be there, and she is enjoying it. Of course, for any given couple, several of these assertions could prove to be wrong, but I think this captures the general case.

Of course, p4p providers are, by definition, different than the girlfriend we are describing here, although I think the line could blur if you were to accumulate enough history with the same provider. However, let's set that aside for now.

In a previous review, I said that a particular girl provides the quintessential GFE. What I meant is that it feels like she really likes me, and like she really enjoys what we are doing together. I've also said that it doesn't matter if this is an act, because it is indistinguishable (for me) from the real thing. To me, that defines GFE.
Click to expand...

Thanks bro.
 
In the push and pull between hobbyists and providers, GFE has essentially become meaningless in a sense.

I think the other side of the coin from 'unable to define GFE' is that I've seen providers on different boards try to re-define it in ways that allows them to narrow the definition as much as possible (which, in itself, is non-GFE at least in spirit, right?). For example, some Korean girls in the Bay Area used to list themselves as K-GFE, which either meant that they run a 'script' (shower, short massage, playtime), or meant that they are CBJ.

Providers advertising like the cache and business that listing themselves as GFE brings, but they don't like the openendedness that it implies. There's a lot of hobbyists that demand that GFE mean a specific list of services that they get in a session, regardless of the woman's skill or attitude in providing them. Frankly, I'd much rather have a hot session with a woman that won't french kiss me than a so-so one with a girl who will. I've had plenty of "GFE" sessions with providers who use the list of services like checkboxes they have to check during a session. Thinking "Okay, 15 seconds of kissing with tongue, that's done", and then they refuse to kiss me the rest of the session. Not exactly a passionate session.
 
If I may add one - and to me maybe the most important one - criteria:The girl takes what she wants and enjoys. That's my definition of passion, the take more than the give.
 
Interesting responses. I think Meiji is putting a finer point on something both he and I said earlier: GFE means different things to different people. It depends on your perspective, and it's not a simple matter of provider vs. client. Some providers (and some clients) view GFE as a codeword for a list of "features": DFK, BBBJ, MSOG, DATY, etc. And some providers, like any marketeer, will add buzzwords to their marketing material in an effort to increase business. But we don't all see it that way.

I searched around for definitions of GFE, and found some interesting discussions in articles, books, and on forums like TAG. The forums and boards seem to often define it in terms of other acronyms, as listed above. The articles and books, on the other hands, tend to give a higher level, more abstract assessment. I think I like those better.

For example, a wikipedia article (Girlfriend experience, at en dot wikipedia dot org) says GFE includes french kissing, hugging, talking, and eating a meal together. It says lots of other stuff, but one more subtle comment that might capture a lot is that "there is a focus on not just having sex, but also having more of a comprehensive experience."

One online book I found says, "In a sense, the customer buys a kind of relationship with an escort rather than just sex -- one that may evolve over time into a genuine emotional connection, albeit one that is paid for." And an article on GQ dot com says men today are paying for girls who are willing to kiss them, "date" them, and be their "pretend" girlfriends.

Because we know that the providers we are discussing here (and/or their agents) sometimes monitor this board, we have an interesting opportunity here: we have a chance to tell them what we want if they advertise GFE. We should take advantage of this.

I won't try to put a comprehensive definition here, but I would like to encourage others here to respond with what you consider to be essential features of GFE -- what do you want?

I was going to type up a quick list of what I want, but I realized how complicated this is, so I deleted it. I will think about it some more, and post again when I'm more clear on it.

@mawjav: I think I know what you mean with Lili, but I've never experienced Sora or Satsuki. If another girl came to you and said, "I want to make you feel like Lili, or Sora, or Satsuki do. Tell me what I need to do/learn/know.", what would you tell her?
 
kitsune said:
Interesting responses. I think Meiji is putting a finer point on something both he and I said earlier: GFE means different things to different people. It depends on your perspective, and it's not a simple matter of provider vs. client. Some providers (and some clients) view GFE as a codeword for a list of "features": DFK, BBBJ, MSOG, DATY, etc. And some providers, like any marketeer, will add buzzwords to their marketing material in an effort to increase business. But we don't all see it that way.

I searched around for definitions of GFE, and found some interesting discussions in articles, books, and on forums like TAG. The forums and boards seem to often define it in terms of other acronyms, as listed above. The articles and books, on the other hands, tend to give a higher level, more abstract assessment. I think I like those better.

For example, a wikipedia article (Girlfriend experience, at en dot wikipedia dot org) says GFE includes french kissing, hugging, talking, and eating a meal together. It says lots of other stuff, but one more subtle comment that might capture a lot is that "there is a focus on not just having sex, but also having more of a comprehensive experience."

One online book I found says, "In a sense, the customer buys a kind of relationship with an escort rather than just sex -- one that may evolve over time into a genuine emotional connection, albeit one that is paid for." And an article on GQ dot com says men today are paying for girls who are willing to kiss them, "date" them, and be their "pretend" girlfriends.

Because we know that the providers we are discussing here (and/or their agents) sometimes monitor this board, we have an interesting opportunity here: we have a chance to tell them what we want if they advertise GFE. We should take advantage of this.

I won't try to put a comprehensive definition here, but I would like to encourage others here to respond with what you consider to be essential features of GFE -- what do you want?

I was going to type up a quick list of what I want, but I realized how complicated this is, so I deleted it. I will think about it some more, and post again when I'm more clear on it.

@mawjav: I think I know what you mean with Lili, but I've never experienced Sora or Satsuki. If another girl came to you and said, "I want to make you feel like Lili, or Sora, or Satsuki do. Tell me what I need to do/learn/know.", what would you tell her?
Click to expand...

I just want to say thanks for all the inputs. It would seem that my question has sparked a great line of responses.

Today I went to Ueno where there was a new girl named Nana in Orange Massage two block and to the left of he Okachimachi station which is between Ueno and Akahibara station. She was great,
First she introduced herself to me and said something in Korean to the manger which made me pause for a moment. She undressed me and took me to the shower room where she began to scrub my whole body on a table. Once she finished we began to talk about different things and she showed me her small breast, which btw I like and I'm in Asia. Now what made her stand out above the rest is she let me suck on one in the shower while the water was still running. After I finished with the right she offered me the left one as to say don't leave this one out of the fun. Then I began to rub her spot while sucking on on her small but I was still able to grab and play with it. I pulled her panties down and off and we began to start again. She told me to wait a moment while she went to get a condom out of the room where I was to get my massage but unlike others she didn't stick to some script she went with the flow and we did it right in the room with that water still running. Once I came she cleaned herself and me up, led me to the room and began my massage. After she finished massage my back which was good she turned me over and started to massage my shoulders. She changed into a dress because the one she was wearing before was all wet. She flirted with me and she climbed on top of me and let me play with her kitty while she played with my man stick. After awhile I motioned her to get back on the pony for a second go round where she did not seem to mind at all. She rode me for a moment reverse cow girl, then she laid back while I was still in her. From there she changed position and proceeded to ride me again. We finished up dogie style, she took me back to the shower where she cleaned me again and took me back to the room. In the room the flirting did not stop, there was kissing and stroking she got me hard a third time and seem to delight in the fact that I was so turned on by her. This in my opinion was a GFE experience.
 
I've been spending some time thinking about what GFE means to me, and I had no idea how elusive the concept is until I tried to round it up. However, I have made a little progress, so let me try to write that down.

I said several things in my first post that may well capture it for me: she is personally invested in the act, it is a shared experience, she wants to be there, and she is enjoying it.

I think hinnie001 hinted at all of this when he said she takes what she wants and enjoys. When the experience includes the elements I mention above, she is an active and enthusiastic participant. She likes what she is doing, and she wants more than just the money out the experience. She is doing what hinnie001 suggests: it is a mutual give and take exchange, and she is doing some of the taking.

There are little things that make good examples of the sort of interactions that I think make for a quality GFE:


  • When Lili and I stepped alone into an elevator, she took my arm and softly leaned against me. This small gesture really broke the ice, and inspired a reciprocal warm response. Mutual warmth is really important, and without it, I don't think GFE is possible.

  • When Aki kisses, she is sometimes a little playful with her tongue. Again, the warmth and intimacy of this little gesture has a psychological impact on both participants.

  • After numerous oral interactions with Miki, she always thanks me sincerely and profusely. Aside from the fact that she is such an enthusiastic receiver, she shows amazingly warm affection in return. This has a tremendous impact! Miki also engages in the experience in a way that implies passion: we generally take our time getting started, and when we first kiss, it is a little tentative and exploratory, but then it quickly grows more and more passionate. Her growing passion ignites mine, and we mutually work our way up to fever pitch. I've had what must be among the "hottest" showers in recorded history with this girl :), and I've already written extensively here about some of our other experiences. We can argue about whether the passion is an illusion or not, but the fact that I'm willing to argue says it all about the experience Miki delivers, and about some very important elements of GFE.

  • From the moment I met Aya, she enthusiastically engaged with me, seeming like a long lost friend. Warm, friendly, and interested are words that immediately come to mind. Of those, "interested" is the most surprising, and maybe very important. Aya seems genuinely engaged, happy to be there, a very enthusiastic co-participant who wants to know all about you (including what turns you on!). She isn't just mechanically going through the motions. It's like she's meeting a new friend (and so are you!). This feels amazingly intimate and warm, and really sets the tone for the whole experience.

I could describe other examples, but they'd probably be repeating many of the same points. Warm, friendly, passionate, engaged, giving and taking pleasure from the exchange -- these are all things that describe you both during GFE. I guess I just stumbled across the fact that GFE is as much about me as it is about her. That's right girls: looking for quality BFE? See me! Nice :)
 
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What a great thread.

Basically, GFE to me is all of those little things that a real 'girlfriend' would do. Not the systematic 'check-list' that has been mentioned before. Those little touches, walking together like gf/bf, normal chit-chat about how things have been, etc.

This really applies more to those ladies who you meet repeatedly. If you ever met Manami more than a few times, you also got that sense of 'GFE'. Miki sounds like a really good option for this kind of experience, I really appreciate the detailed experiences. It really gives a glimpse into what you can expect.

I am happy to hear that there are some good options out there. It's been ages since I could last get into the p4p scene in Tokyo!
 
Tarrus said:
I just want to say thanks for all the inputs. It would seem that my question has sparked a great line of responses.

Today I went to Ueno where there was a new girl named Nana in Orange Massage two block and to the left of he Okachimachi station which is between Ueno and Akahibara station. She was great,
First she introduced herself to me and said something in Korean to the manger which made me pause for a moment. She undressed me and took me to the shower room where she began to scrub my whole body on a table. Once she finished we began to talk about different things and she showed me her small breast, which btw I like and I'm in Asia. Now what made her stand out above the rest is she let me suck on one in the shower while the water was still running. After I finished with the right she offered me the left one as to say don't leave this one out of the fun. Then I began to rub her spot while sucking on on her small but I was still able to grab and play with it. I pulled her panties down and off and we began to start again. She told me to wait a moment while she went to get a condom out of the room where I was to get my massage but unlike others she didn't stick to some script she went with the flow and we did it right in the room with that water still running. Once I came she cleaned herself and me up, led me to the room and began my massage. After she finished massage my back which was good she turned me over and started to massage my shoulders. She changed into a dress because the one she was wearing before was all wet. She flirted with me and she climbed on top of me and let me play with her kitty while she played with my man stick. After awhile I motioned her to get back on the pony for a second go round where she did not seem to mind at all. She rode me for a moment reverse cow girl, then she laid back while I was still in her. From there she changed position and proceeded to ride me again. We finished up dogie style, she took me back to the shower where she cleaned me again and took me back to the room. In the room the flirting did not stop, there was kissing and stroking she got me hard a third time and seem to delight in the fact that I was so turned on by her. This in my opinion was a GFE experience.
Click to expand...

Good day Can you give exact walking directions or an address to Orange Massage that you speak of above about Nana? Thank you for your assistance.
 
This is a very good thread.

To try to answer Kitsune’s very good question:

Another girl says, ‘I want to make you feel like Lili, or Sora, or Satsuki do. Tell me what I need to learn/know/do.’ What would I tell her?

Firstly, the girl herself:

Physically, she would have to be petite, slender, with small breasts, shaved below, not a stunner or head-turner, but just like the girl next-door, simple, even plain, with Sora’s flawed skin, Lili’s crooked smile, Satsuki’s adorable overbite, beautiful in that everyday way.

Because the mind, the attitude, the approach, that I find so attractive in these women, in part flows from their physical imperfections. Nature has a way of compensating, balancing a shortfall here with an add-on there. These girls know that (by Japanese standards) they are average looking, and so they have learnt to compensate simply by being nice. This is what makes them beautiful, far more so than a stunner who has learnt only that she can afford to be lazy.

So I need to edit Kitsune’s question before I can answer it.

Another EXTRAORDINARY ORDINARY girl says…..

‘I want to make you feel like Lili, or Sora, or Satsuki do. Tell me what I need to learn/know/do.’ What would I tell her?

“What you need to learn you already have. Be nice. Just be who you are. And, for a couple of hours, I will fall in love with you. Sure, hide what you need to hide, but similarly, show what you need to show. And I will then be able to follow.”

“What you need to know is that I am a man, with the prerequisite two brains. One wants to be caressed by you, teased by you, suffocated by your beauty, mastered by your teachings. The other wants to fuck you, take you, control you, master you as my student.”

“Bringing us to what you need to do. First, let me get it out of my system. Be passive for a while. Don’t do anything, except what I tell you. Just allow me to indulge myself. I’ll lead, you just respond. Let me do what I want. I won’t hurt you, because I don’t want to hurt you. I just want to fuck you, my way. Then, later, you can show me what you like, and I will be more than happy to pleasure you until you soak the sheets (Sora), your back flushes red (Lili), and you squirt (Satsuki). There's no need for the 'imitation of pleasure', when it turns me on to turn you on.”

“GFE.”

“So, shall we begin? Put on this schoolgirl costume. Tie your hair up in pigtails. Sit on the side of the bed in front of me, with your knees together and your feet apart. That’s it. Now, suck it, gently, with lots of saliva. It’s OK, we’re both consenting adults, and this is fun!”

Well, Kitsune, you did ask.

;-)

PS. I'm meeting Miki tomorrow for the first time. Sailor suit......
 
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Testing my profile picture.

Hmmm. Didn't work.

Kias, how do I get a picture to appear on the left of my posts, under my handle, like you've got?

Cheers all.
 
bichan2 said:
Good day Can you give exact walking directions or an address to Orange Massage that you speak of above about Nana? Thank you for your assistance.
Click to expand...

You are going to want to take the Ueno-Okachimachi station. Once you exit the station you want to look across the street and see a street market and a lot of people. Cross street at the crosswalk on the left side of the bridge. Turn left and walk until you see an alley to your right the sign is green. Go upstairs to the third floor when you enter the stairway you'll see Orange massage on the stairs.

https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&q=35.708037,139.774241+(Orange+massage)

Once again this place if foreigner friendly so please don't mess it up for the rest of us. Enjoy and treat her nicely, I know it's not common but she deserved the tip I gave her. You may want to bring your own condoms because they use the small Japanese ones.
 
mawjav said:
Well, Kitsune, you did ask.

;-)
Click to expand...

Yes, I did ask. I think this is a prime example of "be careful what you ask/wish for, you might just get it." :)

More seriously, I think you hit on some very important points. The girl brings her own psychology to the exchange, and it's really difficult to feel warm and relaxed with someone who is full of herself, with someone who lacks awareness of her own imperfections. I think the self awareness you refer to might make some girls more accepting of *our* imperfections. And this makes it easier for them to be warm and giving, to relax and let go, and to accept what we might offer to them.

I also liked the part about her being herself, being nice, and about falling in love for a few hours. I think GFE is about making love, mutually, and while it's important to be realistic and not get carried away emotionally, it is possible to generate amazing feelings of tenderness, lust, and intense, warm affection, given the right interpersonal chemistry. And with the right girl, this is two-way, which makes all the difference.

I also liked the part about wanting to be "mastered by [her] teachings", as well as wanting to take charge. This is an example of the give/take exchange, I think. I feel similarly, though maybe a little less confident: I think some of these girls could teach me far more than I can teach them, but I relish the opportunity to learn enough to tip the balance :) Oshiete kudasai, girls!

You and I are quite different, stylistically, but that is to be expected. I wonder, though: I don't want to read too much into one post, but the scenario you described seems almost scripted, with role-playing, etc. Do you see this as an important element of GFE?

My initial reaction was that this seems to cross over into "professional" behavior rather than GFE, but then it struck me that sometimes girlfriends/boyfriends do engage in just these sorts of activities, so maybe the line is blurry here.

Anyway, thanks for responding. I intensely envy you your upcoming session with Miki, and I only wish I could be in Tokyo right now! I hope you both are better for the experience :)
 
mawjav said:
Testing my profile picture.

Hmmm. Didn't work.

Kias, how do I get a picture to appear on the left of my posts, under my handle, like you've got?

Cheers all.
Click to expand...

You just need to pick an image that's either a .JPG or .GIF and use the Avatar tool to add it to your profile (here)

Note the size and dimension requirements:
Avatar Settings said:
Note: The maximum size of your custom image is 80 by 80 pixels or 19.5 KB
Click to expand...

I'd recommend using the upload method as links can become broken later. (depending on where the image is hosted)

Let us know if you need more help.
 
Tarrus said:
You are going to want to take the Ueno-Okachimachi station. Once you exit the station you want to look across the street and see a street market and a lot of people. Cross street at the crosswalk on the left side of the bridge. Turn left and walk until you see an alley to your right the sign is green. Go upstairs to the third floor when you enter the stairway you'll see Orange massage on the stairs.

https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&q=35.708037,139.774241+(Orange+massage)

Once again this place if foreigner friendly so please don't mess it up for the rest of us. Enjoy and treat her nicely, I know it's not common but she deserved the tip I gave her. You may want to bring your own condoms because they use the small Japanese ones.
Click to expand...


Thanks Tarrus. Do you know their operational hours?
 
One of the tale tale sign are the little touch that a provider would not
do. Snuggling, sharing some insight and let you know what she likes and how she likes to be touched (not the initial question what do you like, but the I am moving toward you so you can touch me here where I like it)

I put Satsuki in a separate category, this is the only girl that could actually sleep during on overnight, and that does show a great amount of trust and confort with the person. (who would like to sleep next to a stranger, fucking is easy compare to it).


mawjav said:
This is a very good thread.

To try to answer Kitsune
Click to expand...
 
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