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How about you write your posts more clearly and succinctly so I understand them and then you won’t need to ask me to reread them. Sorry I am so stupid as to not understand you on the first reading.

Nobody said you were stupid.

Anyway, if you ask a question,

"What makes a square"

and I answer,

"A square has four equal sides"

And you say

"So you're telling me that SOMETHING WITH SIDES IS A SQUARE"

Then... I don't really know what to tell you. I answered your specific question. You made some false equivalences. I don't think anybody is smarter than anybody else but perhaps something got lost in the mix.
 
Nobody said you were stupid.

Anyway, if you ask a question,

"What makes a square"

and I answer,

"A square has four equal sides"

And you say

"So you're telling me that SOMETHING WITH SIDES IS A SQUARE"

Then... I don't really know what to tell you. I answered your specific question. You made some false equivalences. I don't think anybody is smarter than anybody else but perhaps something got lost in the mix.
When’s someone tells you to reread their post, the ONLY response is to tell them to rewrite theirs. And what is true, false or equivalent is not yours to decide.
 
When’s someone tells you to reread their post, the ONLY response is to tell them to rewrite theirs. And what is true, false or equivalent is not yours to decide.

I'm done here... If you can't read and refuse to try or take a basic University level logic course there's no point. Merry pigness to you enjoy your life
 
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Yes you are done here. But the record will remain: Synapse to the OP: “take the easy way out” and get a ho.ker. Or do it the hard and pure way, like Gandhi, MLK, Jesus...and wait a minute, just like Synapse too!
 
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I'm done here... If you can't read and refuse to try or take a basic University level logic course there's no point. Merry pigness to you enjoy your life

Should've have ignored him from the start. Some people just want to argue for the sake of argueing. They often link different things together to create a mess. Their moto: if you can't convince them, confuse them.
 
Psychosis is a very real risk, even if i.e. LSD-induced psychosis is fairly unusual and usually short-term. However, for someone who carries genes associated with schizophrenia, psychadelics may induce the onset of this disorder. Other personality disorders and/or mental health conditions may also be further exacerbated by using psychadelics irresponsibly.

Source?

This certainly was the popular belief due to a lot of fearmongering in the 60s. Haven't seen anything convincing that it is actually the case, however. (I also find it ironic given the comparatively massive history of human use with little to no negative effects, in stark comparison to a large percentage of pharmaceuticals which are doled out by the bucketful to nearly everyone in the US these days). Aspirin, in its relatively short history of human use, has killed far more people than psilocybin ever will.
 
LSD works by reducing your sense of self (or ego, if you will).

This works by the drug interfering with the functional connectivity in the brain, which increases communication between brain regions (including those which typically are not very well-connected) (Liechti, 2017). In particular, the serotonin receptors 5-HT2A and 5-HT2BR show abnormal activation by LSD, thus causing visual hallucinations (Schmidt et al., 2018; Wacker et al., 2017). Neuroimaging studies have shown that the brains on LSD mimic brains of those with psychiatric disorders, such as schizophrenia. These findings are in fact so similar, that researchers are currently using these models in order to treat schizophrenia. This is done by using a 5-HT2A receptor antagonist, with the antagonist preventing the patient's hallucinations. (Preller et al., 2016; Halberstadt, 2017).

Psilocybin (mushrooms) also alter your sense of self and causes visual hallucinations by increasing activation of the same serotonin receptor 5-HT2A.

Does this mean LSD or other psychedelics cause disorders such as schizophrenia?


No.



But it means that anyone with a real risk of developing a psychiatric disorder (or is already diagnosed with one) such as schizophrenia should approach psychedelics cautiously as these drugs activate the very receptor(s) (5-HT2A) which appear to cause their hallucinations!

I am well aware of the fear-mongering and false information that was all the rage in the 60s and onwards.

Unfortunately, it has meant that scientific endeavours to research these substances (LSD, MDMA, psilocybin, cannabis etc) has been incredibly difficult. Only in the last few years have researchers been allowed to study the effect these drugs have on the brain. Hence, it is also difficult to give definite answers on their properties as there is simply a lack of replicated studies.

I suggest you take a look at the studies done by researchers at the Imperial Psychedelic Research Group, if you haven’t already.

I am not denying that psychedelics or other substances may have therapeutic use. However, it is irresponsible to only promote their potentially positive effects while ignoring the risks that they pose. This is particularly true for those who have a risk of, or already have, very real and life-changing psychiatric disorders.


Off-topic

Although I release this topic is not about drug interactions, I thought it might be useful to leave a note on MDMA, psychadelics, and anti-depressants. I imagine there may be a few of you who on here who are on medication and are thinking about trying to give psychadelics or MDMA a go.

MDMA work differently by affecting your serotonin. Simply speaking, serotonin is the ’happy’ chemical your body produces in order to keep your mood stable. MDMA reduces your sense of fear and increases empathy. It does this by releasing all the serotonin that are currently held in your cells. MDMA should not be taken together with MAOI medications (used for depression) as they may cause serotonin syndrome, in which the person presents with symptoms such as tremors and high body temperature.

Furthermore, excessive use of MDMA can severely deplete the body of its serotonin reserves. On studies on monkeys, this depletion has shown to take a year or several years before the body is once more able to produce sufficient levels of serotonin (Taffe et al., 2002; Ma et al., 2016).

Anyone on SSRIs (anti-depressants such as prozac or zoloft) is pretty much unable to feel any effects of psychadelics or MDMA, although it is not considered dangerous to take them together. This is because the SSRIs distribute serotonin in your body, which is then absorbed by your cells . SSRIs also further inhibit your cells' ability to reabsorb, stabilizing your mood. Hence, psychadelics and MDMA which rely on affecting the serotonin receptors (5-HT) in your cells are blocked by the SSRIs.

TL;DR: Don't waste your money on psychadelics or MDMA if you're on anti-depressants. If you have a family history of psychiatric disorders, i.e. schizophrenia, stay away from psychadelics.


References

_____Halberstadt, A. L. (2017). Hallucinogenic drugs: A new study answers old questions about LSD. Current Biology, 27(4), R156-R158.
_____Ma, K. H., Liu, T. T., Weng, S. J., Chen, C. F. F., Huang, Y. S., Chueh, S. H., ... & Huang, W. S. (2016). Effects of dextromethorphan on MDMA-induced serotonergic aberration in the brains of non-human primates using [123 I]-ADAM/SPECT. Scientific reports, 6, 38695.
_____Preller, K. H., Herdener, M., Pokorny, T., Planzer, A., Kraehenmann, R., Stämpfli, P., ... & Vollenweider, F. X. (2016). The role of the serotonin 2A receptor in the fabric and modulation of personal meaning in lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD)-induced states. European Neuropsychopharmacology, 2(26), S299-S300.
_____Schmidt, A., Müller, F., Lenz, C., Dolder, P. C., Schmid, Y., Zanchi, D., ... & Borgwardt, S. (2018). Acute LSD effects on response inhibition neural networks. Psychological medicine, 48(9), 1464-1473.
_____Taffe, M. A., Davis, S. A., Yuan, J., Schroeder, R., Hatzidimitriou, G., Parsons, L. H., ... & Gold, L. H. (2002). Cognitive performance of MDMA-treated rhesus monkeys: sensitivity to serotonergic challenge. Neuropsychopharmacology, 27(6), 993.
_____Wacker, D., Wang, S., McCorvy, J. D., Betz, R. M., Venkatakrishnan, A. J., Levit, A., ... & Shoichet, B. K. (2017). Crystal structure of an LSD-bound human serotonin receptor. Cell, 168(3), 377-389.

If I may offer my own anecdotal experience to what looks like a very solid piece of scientific reportage by Emma: When the Buta was a young man, he took acid several times. The best experience he had was with something called orange sunshine which he took at a Grateful Dead concert. He also ate mushrooms and he snorted a crystalline form of mescaline. He smoked massive amounts of marijuana and sticky black hashish from Afghanistan. He did not do much cocaine and he stayed away from opioids and amphetamines of all kinds. He drank lots of beer. None of this made him even remotely psychotic. But he is sure, that if he had not used his brain like a drug testing laboratory for those few fateful years long ago, he would be ever smarter and sharper than he is today. And he would not be sitting here in the toilet of a middling company writing this drivel. Rather, he would be someplace else. Someplace better. He would be a Captain of The Universe.....someplace.
 
If I may offer my own anecdotal experience to what looks like a very solid piece of scientific reportage by Emma: When the Buta was a young man, he took acid several times. The best experience he had was with something called orange sunshine which he took at a Grateful Dead concert. He also ate mushrooms and he snorted a crystalline form of mescaline. He smoked massive amounts of marijuana and sticky black hashish from Afghanistan. He did not do much cocaine and he stayed away from opioids and amphetamines of all kinds. He drank lots of beer. None of this made him even remotely psychotic. But he is sure, that if he had not used his brain like a drug testing laboratory for those few fateful years long ago, he would be ever smarter and sharper than he is today. And he would not be sitting here in the toilet of a middling company writing this drivel. Rather, he would be someplace else. Someplace better. He would be a Captain of The Universe.....someplace.
... or, maybe to be that , you should have taken MORE?
Pourquoi faire dans la demi-mesure, mon ami ? :D
 
... or, maybe to be that , you should have taken MORE?
Pourquoi faire dans la demi-mesure, mon ami ? :D
True. Maybe I just kinda got bored of it. And I would probably be just exactly right where I am drugs, booze or not. This notion that LSD gives you higher awareness is just a bunch of malarkey made up by jokers trying to sell books to freshmen potheads at mediocre colleges who take everything, including themselves, too seriously.
 

That's well established medical research, the link was known back when I was in med school, and that's a long time ago. Latent schizophrenics can be triggered into an episode by LSD and some other psychedelics.

People with a history of schizophrenia in the family should be cautious with usage of these sorts of drugs. People known to have shizophrenia should not use them at all.
 
That's well established medical research, the link was known back when I was in med school, and that's a long time ago. Latent schizophrenics can be triggered into an episode by LSD and some other psychedelics.

People with a history of schizophrenia in the family should be cautious with usage of these sorts of drugs. People known to have shizophrenia should not use them at all.
It’s hard to be cautious with psychedelics. That’s the problem. You can’t just have one puff, glass or line. Either you are dosed or you are not.
 
It’s hard to be cautious with psychedelics. That’s the problem. You can’t just have one puff, glass or line. Either you are dosed or you are not.

Well, in this case "cautious" means "don't touch 'em with a bargepole".
 
That's well established medical research, the link was known back when I was in med school, and that's a long time ago. Latent schizophrenics can be triggered into an episode by LSD and some other psychedelics.

People with a history of schizophrenia in the family should be cautious with usage of these sorts of drugs. People known to have shizophrenia should not use them at all.

Sorry, but no. This is not "established research." (please link if you have some support to disprove me)

What was "established" (or perhaps what people wanted to believe, as some people once wanted to believe that the sun orbited the Earth) was that psychedelics cause "schizophrenia-like psychosis" (if you look at the research you will see many similar terms) which is about as useful of an analysis as saying drinking alcohol causes "psychopathic-like anger". In other words, it's entirely ideological and non scientific to describe things this way. People could easily also say sleeping with escorts causes moral degradation. I'm sure most parties reading this would chuckle at the ideology contained within that statement as well.

I'm also guessing "back when you were in med school" was also some time in the past, aka before current medical research and theory (hell, "hysteria" and even "homosexuality" or at the very least "gender identity disorder" were probably still in the DSM when you were in med school, am I right?) and also exactly around when the massive fear campaign regarding LSD existed.

Let's go back and take a look at the actual history of both human use and research for everybody who didn't gargle their professors' nutsack unquestioningly.

"Psychosis" itself has been linked to a large variety of drugs, receptors, and neurotransmitters, including but not limited to, serotonin, dopamine, glutamate, and cannabinol receptors. The fact of the matter at the end of the day is that scientists have basically NO idea what causes schizophrenia, nor what causes a "trip." Ironically, of all these cannabis has the largest actual research data which suggests a correlation. Are people in here carrying the sword for cannabis illegalization? Or is it just hallucinogens which get the hate?

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2011.00001/full

Psychedelics also are inversely correlated with suicidality and mental health problems in general. "A recent large population study of 130,000 adults in the United States failed to find evidence for a link between psychedelic use (lysergic acid diethylamide, psilocybin or mescaline) and mental health problems."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881114568039?journalCode=jopa

Not only is there no recorded relation between LSD/psychedelics and mental issues, but there is actually a negative correlation. "Lifetime classic psychedelic use was associated with a significantly reduced odds of past month psychological distress (weighted odds ratio (OR)=0.81 (0.72–0.91)), past year suicidal thinking (weighted OR=0.86 (0.78–0.94)), past year suicidal planning (weighted OR=0.71 (0.54–0.94)), and past year suicide attempt (weighted OR=0.64 (0.46–0.89)), whereas lifetime illicit use of other drugs was largely associated with an increased likelihood of these outcomes."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881114565653?journalCode=jopa

Ultimately, if anyone had any POSITIVE evidence of the "LSD/psychedelic causes schizophrenia" hypothesis this would be rather easy to prove. There would be a HUGE register of individual case-studies of people who took LSD/psychedelics and immediately became schizophrenic. But is there? No. Saying that "LSD activates the same receptor as X and also CAUSES HALLUCINATIONS OH MY GOD" does not constitute evidence of causality. Snake venom also activates the "same receptors as muscle movement"

But it means that anyone with a real risk of developing a psychiatric disorder (or is already diagnosed with one) such as schizophrenia should approach psychedelics cautiously as these drugs activate the very receptor(s) (5-HT2A) which appear to cause their hallucinations!

This is also a bit of a dishonest... or perhaps just misguided way of phrasing things. Anti-psychotic (second-gen) medication also "activates the very receptors (5-HT2A) which appear to cause their hallucinations" and I'm sure you wouldn't advocate that a medicine for treating schizophrenic symptoms be abandoned by patients simply because it activates a certain receptor? At best, your wording as poor. At worst, it's dishonest and/or ideological.

I didn't try to invoke any "argument from authority" as you did previously, but I have both studied and been published in academic journals for both neuroscience and psychology. I have spent a lot of time thinking about, and with my proverbial white lab coat on, researching these things. And I know the tendency is to over-focus on specific receptors and neurotransmitters and think that it paints a clear picture. We used to say "X activates the same area of the brain as Y" and that was equally flawed logic (I'm sure some still say this). The fact of the matter is the brain is far more complex than this and LSD/psychedelics act of FAR more receptors than just 5-HT2A (and so does schizophrenia) and affects far more than just serotonin.

But it's important to take a step back and understand when the beliefs that academia bakes into its students are actually the result of ideology rather than legitimate hard facts and data-based science.

IF there is a direct, undeniable correlation... EVEN ONE CASE of someone who took acid and turned schizophrenic, I would love to hear it. It would be interesting at the very least.

But the fact of the matter is, there is NO, ZERO, ZILCH, conclusive evidence that LSD or hallucinogens *cause* persistent schizophrenia even in those predisposed to it.

THAT SAID what is my position of people of various states of mental health taking hallucinogens?

Be careful. Not because you are going to have some sort of epic lifelong schizophrenic meltdown. No. Again, and as I have laid out above, this belief is due to ideology and a lack of attention to the actual data. But instead, because it will be quite uncomfortable for you. It WILL end, but it may be (if you are not prepared for some serious mental introspection and jostling, to say the least) the worst experience of your life. In fact, anyone with even a decent level of persistent anxiety should NOT, I repeat *NOT* take a large dose of psychedelics.

BUT

BUT

A small dose for many people, and a large dose for most mentally stable humans, I contend, as a NON-MEDICAL CITIZEN, is harmless. And, as Tim Leary best stated, "LSD is a psychedelic drug which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who have NOT taken it.”

Ultimately, I wish that these drugs were legalized so that people could take them in a safe, controlled setting with a medical professional in the room if they so wished.
 
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Sorry, but no. This is not "established research." (please link if you have some support to disprove me)

You don't appear to understand what I was saying, or what latent schizophrenia is.

Latent does not refer to undiagnosed or asymptomatic schizophrenia, which is what you appear to think I mean.

Latent shizophrenia is a a form of schizophrenia marked by hallucinations and delusions, and marked difficulty with concentration. It does not present with the outbursts and episodes typical of more severe types of schizophrenia. Latent schizophrenics are also the most likely to be undiagnosed.

Ingestion of pschoactive alkaloids or synthesised psychoactive compounds such as LSD can trigger schizophrenic episodes (psychotic episodes) in otherwise latent patients. Nowhere did I state that this was a permanent effect.

I did not state that LSD causes schizophrenia - I stated that it exacerbates mild forms of the illness in people already suffering from it.
 
If you are going to argue about the phrasing of one sentence, ignore or willfully misunderstand the main body of my text, and then repeat the very argument (’be cautious’) that I have been repeating all along...


I think your ego is in need of another LSD dose.

Hahaha, you may just be right. Not sure clarity of ego helps reading comprehension specifically though... Would need to see some studies on this :eek:

My point was basically -
1. I agree with you on the basic idea that people with family history of mental illness should be careful when taking ANY medicine/psychoactive substance or any stressful situation.

But
2. I don't see the evidence of a strict correlation between schizophrenia and LSD or any research which actually suggests a serious link specifically
 
I did not state that LSD causes schizophrenia - I stated that it exacerbates mild forms of the illness in people already suffering from it.

Sure. We agree then. There's also a large list of other activities and pharmacological agents these people should stay away from. In fact, these kinds of people should probably avoid all stressful situations in general, of which taking a hallucinogen and doing street pickup are two great examples
 
OK OK! Hallucinogens don't cause schizophrenia! You win already! But, and it is a big but, we know for a fact that they cause some people to make questionable lifestyle decisions. For example: quit their jobs, stop shaving and bathing regulary (both men and women alike), live in old school buses and eat way too much granola, garbanzo beans and peanut butter sandwiches. On this basis alone they should be discouraged. Peace. Oh and just FYI, I think this thread is making me schizophrenic.
 
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OK OK! Hallucinogens don't cause schizophrenia! You win already! But, and it is a big but, we know for a fact that they cause some people to make questionable lifestyle decisions. For example: quit their jobs, stop shaving and bathing regulary (both men and women alike), live in old school buses and eat way too much granola, garbanzo beans and peanut butter sandwiches. On this basis alone they should be discouraged. Peace. Oh and just FYI, I think this thread is making me schizophrenic.

Yup I agree 100%. People who take hallucinogens more than once or twice a year are overdoing it and liable to fall off the bearded grungy garbanzo beans cliff. I also don't think that they enable you to talk with plants, meet aliens, connect with each other psychically, or many of the other common claims of psychedelic devotees.

For people who don't want to touch hallucinogens but still want to stretch their human experience, you can achieve a very similar experience by doing a float tank for an hour plus, ideally once a month or semi regularly as it can take some time to get used to it and quiet your mind sufficiently

-A heavy dose of psychedelics once a year
 
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Yup I agree 100%. People who take hallucinogens more than once or twice a year are overdoing it and liable to fall off the bearded grungy garbanzo beans cliff. I also don't think that they enable you to talk with plants, meet aliens, connect with each other psychically, or many of the other common claims of psychedelic devotees.

For people who don't want to touch hallucinogens but still want to stretch their human experience, you can achieve a very similar experience by doing a float tank for an hour plus, ideally once a month or semi regularly as it can take some time to get used to it and quiet your mind sufficiently
Alot of the stereotypes of drugs and their users are true for the most part. Thats why theyre stereotypes:

1. Beer - fat working class guy who gets drunk and beats his wife.
2. Pot - lazy teenage underacheiver
3. Coke - overpaid, yuppy, superficial, arrogant idiot
4. Acid - spaced out hippy who has lost the plot along with his self respect
5. Meth - violent gangbanger
6. Crack - weak idiot who couldnt stop himself
7. Opiates - same as crack
 
Alot of the stereotypes of drugs and their users are true for the most part. Thats why theyre stereotypes:

1. Beer - fat working class guy who gets drunk and beats his wife.
2. Pot - lazy teenage underacheiver
3. Coke - overpaid, yuppy, superficial, arrogant idiot
4. Acid - spaced out hippy who has lost the plot along with his self respect
5. Meth - violent gangbanger
6. Crack - weak idiot who couldnt stop himself
7. Opiates - same as crack

But what about the truly dedicated reprobate?