Things You Would Change About Japan

just4fun said:

Hi Lisa.....I usually sick back and read and throw a comment here and there......anything for a chuckle......
I know, I know.....there's surely to be several more important items involved.......but it made you snicker......mission accomplished

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Making me laugh is one of the other factors.
I really like intelligent, funny men.
It's looking really good so far.

..........Pretty much all that's left is being able to go down for hours and fuck like a stallion

Well, 2 out of 3 isn't bad is it?

just4fun said:

Well, 2 out of 3 isn't bad is it?

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It depends which 2 out of the 3 it is

There are a couple that are non-negotiable

The sense of humor is indispensable, and I'll take either of the other 2.




Wait....
Well one of the other 2 - and it's not the second

(Whinnies)

just4fun said:

(Whinnies)

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Damn!

I think the TheDutchElm has a serious case of othering and projection. Some of those comments are at best patronising, at worse racist. The idea that Japanese are inhibited and ignorant of sex is simply wrong. I haven't discussed much of my own experiences but they parallel Solong's. Many foreigners in Japan have similar superficial views because they cannot penetrate the culture.

I've penetrated the culture here pretty good if I say so myself

Wasn't me! I'd rather give a pearl necklace instead of responsibilities and a drastic change in lifestyle.

just4fun said:

I've penetrated the culture here pretty good if I say so myself

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Perhaps this should be the motto for the site?

When you arrange your regular FWB tryst with multiple Japanese women who all know each other and are ok with it, you let me know, @psd.

I stand by my position that Japan is still largely a conservative sexual environment. Whatever elements of deviance and alternative lifestyle exist are buried in a culture of turning a blind eye and feigned ignorance. This is not a bad thing when your standing in social groups is so heavily scrutinized. But it is not sexual liberty.

@TheDutchElm It might clarify matters if you, or others, gave some examples of cultures that manifest "sexual liberty". It is not that I disagree with you, but I am not sure what you mean.

My personal take on it is that there are subcultures within Japan in which there is great sexual liberty and others in which there is little, similar to the situation in numerous other countries with which I am familiar.

-Ww

So an example of what I mean by sexual liberty is arrangements other than serial monogamy and serial infidelity that at least have some presence and partial acceptance in collective cultural conscience. The idea of polyfidelity or open relationships for example. I feel like in my home country, while these arrangements are still unusual, there is at least an understanding that they exist and really aren't anyone else's business: at least in more liberal and alternative circles. More importantly, when others suggest that it IS their business, there's usually another voice that invokes personal liberty and privacy as a counterpoint. In Japan, if I ever dare discuss such an arrangement with a Japanese person, even one who's lived overseas, I'm likely to get a look in return like I've sprouted a second head. There is a pretty rigid expectation of "how relationship things are done" on this side of the pond.

The consequence of this is we can have incidents like the happening bar raid that Solong posted about this last week and nobody in the Japanese public bats an eye.

TheDutchElm said:

When you arrange your regular FWB tryst with multiple Japanese women who all know each other and are ok with it, you let me know, @psd.

I stand by my position that Japan is still largely a conservative sexual environment. Whatever elements of deviance and alternative lifestyle exist are buried in a culture of turning a blind eye and feigned ignorance. This is not a bad thing when your standing in social groups is so heavily scrutinized. But it is not sexual liberty.

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I have done such, where my Japanese girlfriends even actively arranged sexual encounters with other women . But there is a kind of trick to it:

1) Honne and Tatemae Revisited

Because women fear being negatively judged and condemned, many actively or subconsciously hide their sexuality.

The women can pretend to be other than what she really is OR wants to do. Unless the guy pulls this out from the woman, she can actively and verbally DENY that's how she is or what she really wants to try.

2) The Guy Needs To Encourage & Be Non-Judgmental

The guy can "trap her" or create situations where her true sexuality comes out. He must show he's non-judgmental for this to work. And many guys FAIL and I mean FAIL horribly at doing this.

Even if not with his words, which by itself can be destructive enough and to include negative comments about other women, but with his attitude and negative looks.

What I try to do is trap women with 3rd party stories about sex. My "Verbal Sexual Escalation" trick that I talk about in PUA topics.

My swinger friends and I create verbal sexual scenarios (usually indirect at first) and monitor her verbal, facial, and body language reactions. I show that I'm accepting and trusting. We give her inner sexuality a positive route that it can follow.

That's partially how we find women who can or encourage women to swing and enjoy the lifestyle.

3) Better Find Out If A Prude Or Not Early

But there is a double twist on this too. She might be showing you she is a prude, because that is EXACTLY what she is.

A guy better find out which she is VERY EARLY in the relationship. Within having sex with her 5X or less or within 2 weeks or so of an active sexual relationship.

This is because many women will form a pattern or habit. A woman might have great potential that is never realized. Many women will define you or sexual relationships with you to only go a certain way. The more time that passes, the more set and rigid many women become in her sexual interactions with you. And it can be specifically with you, while she can behave very DIFFERENTLY with OTHER men.

TheDutchElm said:

When you arrange your regular FWB tryst with multiple Japanese women who all know each other and are ok with it, you let me know, @psd.

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This is what I meant by projecting. You have your own standard of what sexual liberty means and are judging by that standard. I'm also pretty sure that you are largely ignorant of what really goes on in Japan.

For instance, have you head of Ni Chome? An entire area of Shinjuku that is known as the gay area. Quite sometime ago, I bumped into the guy that sits opposite me at work and he told me he was off to a (gay) particular club and ask me to join him. I told him I wasn't gay but had friends that visited the club and I've been to other clubs with them. So yes, he doesn't discuss it in the office but so what? It's his sex life and no one else's business. I also know of another gay man in the office and one of my closest friends at work is lesbian.

There are entire communities of people with alternate lifestyles, they are open with in those communities but keep it quiet. I would like to elaborate but I don't want to hint at my own situation. I will say that I've been in a triangle relationship with two Japanese women.

There are pros and cons of this but in many ways they are freer than in many Western countries.

really aren't anyone else's business

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Which is what Solong was discussing above. And this suits me particularly well because of my own situation.

TheDutchElm said:

So an example of what I mean by sexual liberty is arrangements other than serial monogamy and serial infidelity that at least have some presence and partial acceptance in collective cultural conscience. The idea of polyfidelity or open relationships for example. I feel like in my home country, while these arrangements are still unusual, there is at least an understanding that they exist and really aren't anyone else's business: at least in more liberal and alternative circles.

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Fwiiw, with the caveat that I have underlined in the above quote and in my experience, I'd describe the situation in much the same way in Japan as well as the US and most other First World countries. I definitely agree with meiji that the Japan is more sexually open/liberal than the US. It may well be less so than the Netherlands (which I assuming to be your home country based on your screen name) and a few other European countries, but elsewhere in the world I'd be hard pressed to name places where people enjoy more sexual liberty than the Japanese, again based on my experiences and impressions...no real data.

It is true, as you say, that in Japan there is a greater tendency to simply ignore ("turning a blind eye and feigned ignorance") what is perceived as "bad behavior" (as long as it is reasonably discreet) and to refrain from openly criticizing those in authority (i.e., the police in this case), but these are very general features of Japanese culture and not specific to standards of sexual behavior.

It is also important, very important I would say, that unconventional sexual behavior in Japan is usually not seen as a profound moral issue (as a matter of "sin"), as Western sexual conservatives normally see it, but only as a matter of appropriate/decorous social behavior.

Finally and fwiiw, in the past 5 years I have had two extended (very) open relationships with Japanese women who had no problem at all with either talking the talk or walking the walk.

-Ww

Ladylisa said:

Wait....
Well one of the other 2 - and it's not the second

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I thought the second was the condition for the pornstar job offers?

psd said:

This is what I meant by projecting. You have your own standard of what sexual liberty means and are judging by that standard. I'm also pretty sure that you are largely ignorant of what really goes on in Japan.

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First off, that's not what projection means. Projection is criticizing someone else for something you subconsciously recognize as a failing in yourself. If you mean "applying my own standards" then yes- I am doing that. Which is why this was relevant to a thread entitled "things you would change about Japan". Second, I'm pretty sure you don't know me or what I know goes on in Japan, so kindly keep accusations of ignorance to yourself unless you have hard evidence to the contrary. The fact that @Solong has to play an elaborate mind game to tease out sexually liberated behavior (and then I assume with only occasional success) shows how uncommon and unconventional this is in Japan. But good on him for making it happen.

meiji said:

I'd say that's more reflective of your home country being very liberal in terms of sexual relationships than Japan being conservative, don't you? Given that there's countries where people are put to death for adultery? I mean, I consider the US to be more conservative sexually than Japan is.

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How is that not the flip side of the same thing? It's something I would change and it would only improve people's attitudes about sex. And yes, there are areas in the world where you can be killed for any number of indiscretions. But when we talk about Japan, we're talking about the first world, not Afghanistan. I don't think "it's worse somewhere else" is a counter to wishing for change for the better. Largely, yes: the US is very sexually conservative. But elements of alternative sex culture have their own communities that are vocal, out, and nowadays expect to be more than quietly, grudgingly tolerated by the mainstream.

psd said:

For instance, have you head of Ni Chome? An entire area of Shinjuku that is known as the gay area.

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I have a number of gay friends and go with them to Ni-Chome frequently, so there's no need to patronize me. The western ones (and they're from all over the world) do complain about how insular, small, and hushed up the gay scene is here compared to other first world countries. It's simply the culture that you keep your off-standard relationship dynamics a secret, and I think that's damaging if it's done out of fear or mainstream pressure. @Solong hit the nail on the head with the application of honne and tatemae. So if you like, the actual thing I'd change is that two-facedness that is an everyday part of Japanese culture. In regards to sex, it's more than the fact that your friend "doesn't talk about it in the office". It's that he CAN'T EVER talk about it in the office or anywhere else. In a first world metropolis of tens of millions.

And that's all I have to say about that. If you want to continue, we can move to another thread.

TheDutchElm said:

First off, that's not what projection means. Projection is criticizing someone else for something you subconsciously recognize as a failing in yourself. If you mean "applying my own standards" then yes- I am doing that.

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That was Freud's original definition but he's been dead for 75(?) years and there's been a lot of work since.

I assume you concede the allegation of othering.

...I think that's damaging if it's done out of fear or mainstream pressure. @@Solong hit the nail on the head with the application of honne and tatemae. So if you like, the actual thing I'd change is that two-facedness that is an everyday part of Japanese culture. In regards to sex, it's more than the fact that your friend "doesn't talk about it in the office". It's that he CAN'T EVER talk about it in the office or anywhere else.

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This shows a complete lack of understanding of Japan.

I don't know know about my manager's personal life. I don't know where he lives, if he's married, has kids, where he lives, what his political views are. The same goes for all the others around me except the guy next to me and the OL who are long term and dear friends of mine. Why, because it's none of my business. Honne and tatemae can only be understood within a greater understanding of Japanese culture such as uchi/soto.

TheDutchElm said:

Which is why this was relevant to a thread entitled "things you would change about Japan".

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Agree.

TheDutchElm said:

The fact that @Solong has to play an elaborate mind game to tease out sexually liberated behavior (and then I assume with only occasional success) shows how uncommon and unconventional this is in Japan. But good on him for making it happen.

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I understand your argument and think there is nothing wrong with bringing up this cultural point. I have debated if this is something I would like to see changed about Japanese culture. But my problem with such, is wouldn't it be changing the very nature and character of what it is to be Japanese?

And my mind game works equally well with American and European women. Which may speak to it being female/feminine nature or at least something not specific to Japanese culture.

Realistically, I don't see feminine coyness and cultural suppression of female sexuality as something that could be changed, until more technological advances in birth control forces changes. Where the convenience and easy access to male and female birth control pills makes the reproductive consequences of sex no longer relevant.

TheDutchElm said:

How is that not the flip side of the same thing? It's something I would change and it would only improve people's attitudes about sex. And yes, there are areas in the world where you can be killed for any number of indiscretions. But when we talk about Japan, we're talking about the first world, not Afghanistan. I don't think "it's worse somewhere else" is a counter to wishing for change for the better. Largely, yes: the US is very sexually conservative. But elements of alternative sex culture have their own communities that are vocal, out, and nowadays expect to be more than quietly, grudgingly tolerated by the mainstream.

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Good point. There is a range of flexibility in regards to attitudes about sex in Japan. The overall atttude in Japan hasn't always been the same, and the needle has moved a bit between liberal and conservative.

TheDutchElm said:

...It's simply the culture that you keep your off-standard relationship dynamics a secret, and I think that's damaging if it's done out of fear or mainstream pressure. @Solong hit the nail on the head with the application of honne and tatemae. So if you like, the actual thing I'd change is that two-facedness that is an everyday part of Japanese culture...

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Perfectly legitimate as a wish, for the two-facedness of Japanese to change, but isn't that a distinct core Japanese cultural character trait? Would a change of certain core characteristics of the culture be turning Japanese into non-Japanese?

A thread on what those core Japanese characteristics are or something related could be quite interesting.

psd said:

I assume you concede the allegation of othering.

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You assume a lot.