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Learning 日本語

NormalGuy

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I did a search on this, as I thought it would have been covered already, but the previous topic was for non-residents.

What I am looking for is some advice on how people here improve their language skills. My language hasn't really advanced as fast as I thought it would since moving here. I can hold basic conversations etc, but still struggle once we move past normal things.
I definitely find listening easier than speaking, and reading is also ok. I think for me it's structuring the sentence and saying it out loud and the fear of sounding dumb.

Any recommendations on classes, outside of the 9-5? Companies etc.

I have tried books, and studying alone doesn't really make things stick.

I'm currently looking to take N4 at the Dec schedule, but would like to breeze through it, rather than at the moment would be a struggle.

So come on all you fluent people, what's your tips?

Oh yea, I know "get a girlfriend", but that's not easy, and all of my Japanese friends stick to English despite my requests to mix it up.
 
It is a hard slog. Once you establish yourself, your Japanese friends (and girlfriends) will tend to internally smooth over your verbal mistakes.

Yokohama has a volunteer language teacher center down near Yokohama stadium. Not sure about Tokyo
 
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I did a search on this, as I thought it would have been covered already, but the previous topic was for non-residents.

What I am looking for is some advice on how people here improve their language skills. My language hasn't really advanced as fast as I thought it would since moving here. I can hold basic conversations etc, but still struggle once we move past normal things.
I definitely find listening easier than speaking, and reading is also ok. I think for me it's structuring the sentence and saying it out loud and the fear of sounding dumb.

Any recommendations on classes, outside of the 9-5? Companies etc.

I have tried books, and studying alone doesn't really make things stick.

I'm currently looking to take N4 at the Dec schedule, but would like to breeze through it, rather than at the moment would be a struggle.

So come on all you fluent people, what's your tips?

Oh yea, I know "get a girlfriend", but that's not easy, and all of my Japanese friends stick to English despite my requests to mix it up.
Japanese girlfriends will not usually help teach you Japanese, as they often want to practice their English or get very bored easily with answering questions. Instead they are usually helpful in answering a few specific questions, before they get bored, or for verbal practice of Japanese you already know.

Nihongomori

https://m.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3

http://www.nihongonomori.com/

Aedict 3 (if you have an Android)

Has example sentence notepad quiz feature. Add words or sentences.

Nihongomori and Aedict can be all you need to pass all of the JLPT tests. They also have old JLPT listening tests on Youtube as well.
 
If speaking is your main problem, you should look for a language exchange partner. There are various sites promoting this, CL has an own section etc., I think Meetup also regularly features some Japanese chat clubs too. . Private classes are the most professional and least cost conscious approach to that ;)
JLPT preparation does not necessarily help your speaking capability. I'm not sure what you mean with reading is ok, but if Kanji present no problem to you, you already passed the biggest obstacle through all JLPT levels.
 
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Japanese girlfriends will not usually help teach you Japanese,

... and even if they DO, you'll pick up feminine speaking patterns from them. Your language learning partner for Japanese should ideally be of the same gender as you.
 
From experience:
Learn first the alphabets hiragana and katakana will do.

Listen to japanese music and try to understand the lyrics by translating them.

Surround yourself with japanese speaking people, unless ur in a situation where only japanese is the language can be spoken, im sure ur learn in no time.
 
Thanks everyone for all the good advice. I now have a few more tools to start learning and can mix it up a little.
I think I get bored easily (possibly another reason I'm single) so having multiple options to learn may keep me interested.
 
Thanks everyone for all the good advice. I now have a few more tools to start learning and can mix it up a little.
I think I get bored easily (possibly another reason I'm single) so having multiple options to learn may keep me interested.
You can try Japanese AV too ya know......
 
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I've already started to scream いく when having an orgasm, so I guess the language is sinking in somehow.

Sceamed it at the top of my lungs the other day, and I was in no state to think about what I was screaming, so it's become natural. Review to come once I stop getting server errors :)
 
... and even if they DO, you'll pick up feminine speaking patterns from them. Your language learning partner for Japanese should ideally be of the same gender as you.
What you are stating is partially an old Japanese playboy myth, based on American military in Japan WAY BACK in the 1950s and after WW2. The story goes that a few male American military officers had female teachers, and came into a meeting using female speaking patterns to the laughter of Japanese military officers and government officials. This dubious story continued as you can tell who foreign playboys are, if they sound feminine in Japanese.

In actuality, Japanese women can easily teach masculine pronunciations and words. Plus any good Japanese language book has them.

And Japanese guys can be even worse language exchange partners for foreign men and there can be issues with the same gender too.

I have 2 foreign female friends, one is Czech and the other is German, who claim Japanese women were the worse for language exchange and that they preferred Japanese men (opposite gender) instead. Both claim Japanese women acted too weird, catty, and were oddly competitive. An odd uncomfortable friction and fakeness they didn't like, where they liked guys because they were more caring and fun.

Note- notice there is never any claim that foreign women sound masculine if they have Japanese male teachers. The reason why is the reverse is a derogatory story aimed at making Japanese women scared and suspicious of foreign men.

In the same way, as between women, language exchange between foreign men and Japanese guys can be problematic. Too formal, arguments over politics, petty jealous about women, geek vs cool or muscular type guys, etc..

Which gender one is comfortable talking to is a personal preference or can be irrelevant.
 
I know of 2 recent cases of foreign guys getting joked about their feminine japanese so it's not an old wives take from the 50's
 
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@Solong
I think you are missing the main point here. This has nothing to do with your WW2 conspiracy theories. Most people doing language exchange are NOT teachers in any sense, but just trying to explain to the best of their abilities. Moreover, even if you start out quite focused on some books etc., language exchange over time often transforms more into chat, especially if there is some mutual sympathy.
That's why there is some tendency to pick up the pattern of the other gender. Has nothing to do with active teaching. That being said, I still prefer a female partner, even with the risk of potentially picking up a few not so masculine expressions ;)
If you have a good language exchange partner, he/she will point it out to you, when you use some strange expressions, but that may not always be the case.
 
I've already started to scream いく when having an orgasm...

I think the ladies say いく
It just me maybe but it just sounds funny to hear [enter your country here] guyjean say いくいく

May I suggest でる or でっちゃう(even more manly)
Girls rarely use でる. Only when they squirt then yeah maybe they say that.
 
If speaking is your main problem, you should look for a language exchange partner. There are various sites promoting this, CL has an own section etc., I think Meetup also regularly features some Japanese chat clubs too. . Private classes are the most professional and least cost conscious approach to that ;)
JLPT preparation does not necessarily help your speaking capability. I'm not sure what you mean with reading is ok, but if Kanji present no problem to you, you already passed the biggest obstacle through all JLPT levels.
I'm in total agreement with language exchange partners, but you will need specific practice and need to get used to the style and format of the JLPT test. That usually comes from DIRECT practice tests, not random conversations. The exceptions being a language school prep for the JLPT directly or you grew up in Japan as a kid.

@Solong
I think you are missing the main point here. This has nothing to do with your WW2 conspiracy theories. Most people doing language exchange are NOT teachers in any sense, but just trying to explain to the best of their abilities. Moreover, even if you start out quite focused on some books etc., language exchange over time often transforms more into chat, especially if there is some mutual sympathy.
That's why there is some tendency to pick up the pattern of the other gender. Has nothing to do with active teaching. That being said, I still prefer a female partner, even with the risk of potentially picking up a few not so masculine expressions ;)
If you have a good language exchange partner, he/she will point it out to you, when you use some strange expressions, but that may not always be the case.

Not conspiracy theory, but VERY well known story among American military (old timers at least) in Japan.

As for the rest, I agree. It depends who is helping you learn Japanese.

The point I made, is various Japanese women can correct feminine speech patterns to masculine, just like various Japanese guys can teach foreign women how to use Japanese female speech patterns.
 
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I know of 2 recent cases of foreign guys getting joked about their feminine japanese so it's not an old wives take from the 50's
It originates and has been talked about since the 1950s. The story has been perpetrated in Japan for that very long. I gave you the origin of where it comes from.

Now it can be true (a foreign male with feminine speech patterns), but there is another side and purpose of the story. Notice there isn't a version of foreign females with masculine speech patterns, and there is a reason for this.
 
It originates and has been talked about since the 1950s. The story has been perpetrated in Japan for that very long. I gave you the origin of where it comes from.

Now it can be true (a foreign male with feminine speech patterns), but there is another side and purpose of the story. Notice there isn't a version of foreign females with masculine speech patterns, and there is a reason for this.
I'm waiting for the punchline......
 
In actuality, Japanese women can easily teach masculine pronunciations and words. Plus any good Japanese language book has them.

Except they don't. Probably my entire first year and a half of taking Japanese classes we'd use 私 because more informal Japanese wasn't really covered. Sure, people can learn proper Japanese for their gender, but often times your main language practice for an expat is going to be with the girl you are fucking and people can learn bad habits that way.

notice there is never any claim that foreign women sound masculine if they have Japanese male teachers.

How many male Japanese language instructors have you met? I think I've met 2 men vs 10+ women teaching Japanese.
 
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How many male Japanese language instructors have you met? I think I've met 2 men vs 10+ women teaching Japanese.

You appear to be pulling this out of context a bit. A language exchange partner or boyfriend/girlfriend scenario was mainly being referred to, not only language teacher or school, where there are plenty of Japanese men doing this.

If you go to a language instructor or language school and they don't teach you male and female speaking patterns, that appears sad and unusual.

There are plenty of opportunities to speak to both Japanese men and women, if one chooses to, outside the context of a girlfriend or boyfriend. The co-workers at my jobs in Japan, have mostly been male, and plenty of Japanese guys at the bar or pub are willing to have a conversation or answer language questions.
 
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What you are stating is partially an old Japanese playboy myth, based on American military in Japan WAY BACK in the 1950s and after WW2. The story goes that a few male American military officers had female teachers, and came into a meeting using female speaking patterns to the laughter of Japanese military officers and government officials. This dubious story continued as you can tell who foreign playboys are, if they sound feminine in Japanese.

In actuality, Japanese women can easily teach masculine pronunciations and words. Plus any good Japanese language book has them.

The phenomenon was quite thoroughly explored in David Graddol and Joan Swan's Gender Voices from Blackwell, and is exhaustively documented in a variety of linguistics journals - not just for Japanese, but for other languages in which gendered roles are used. Also note that I was referring to language learning partners, not instructors. Properly trained Japanese language instructors are aware of this issue - it's covered in the teacher training texts - and good ones actively work to avoid its influence.

The "myth" component that you refer to is that feminine speech patterns are a reliable way to tell if a man is a "playboy" or not - it's merely an indicator that he acquired his Japanese in large part from untrained or poorly trained female sources.

Notice there isn't a version of foreign females with masculine speech patterns, and there is a reason for this.

Actually there is - it's also referenced in the sources I mention above - and I have seen some women in corporate settings embarrass themselves quite badly by referring to themselves as "boku" or "ore". It's less common here, however, in large part because the majority of Japanese language instructors are female.
 
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If you go to a language instructor or language school and they don't teach you male and female speaking patterns, that appears sad and unusual.

They teach polite speaking patterns, which in many cases lean female, given that women use 私 a lot more than men do in the real world. I'd be interested to hear what your Japanese language school experience was, since this appears 'unusual' to you.

There are plenty of opportunities to speak to both Japanese men and women, if one chooses to, outside the context of a girlfriend or boyfriend. The co-workers at my jobs in Japan, have mostly been male, and plenty of Japanese guys at the bar or pub are willing to have a conversation or answer language questions.

You seem to be looking at your personal anecdotal experience and saying that every other man has the same experience. Men that aren't in Japan, but are dating Japanese women don't have your same experience. Men in Japan that are dating Japanese women but don't work in Japanese workplaces don't have your same experience. Yes, there's plenty of opportunities for language practice if one chooses to. That's not the same thing as your previous comment, which is that it's a myth that lots of foreign men pick up feminine speaking patterns from the Japanese women they are with.

Many men don't choose to. Or don't have the opportunity to.
 
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I have/had many foreign friends and girlfriends, from everywhere around the world in Tokyo. My opinion is based not just on my personal experience.

Where I have seen foreigners isolated in a bubble, is mostly American military, and particularly Navy. They mostly stay on the base or on ship, so they can be limited to mostly interacting with only a Japanese girlfriend (for example). That's also the primary source of speaking Japanese femininely, then that supposedly means the foreign guy is a "playboy" (even if he's not and has no chance to be).

Working in Tokyo, there is usually a lot of access to talking to many different Japanese, if you choose not to isolate yourself. When I first came to Tokyo, I had Japanese correct my speaking patterns or answer my language questions even drinking at the HUB, drinking in Roppongi, or at work.
 
Well, I think will wade in to this conversation and hope I don't regret it, lol. I think everyone has brought up great points so far. I do think there are more women teaching a language schools. I my experience it has been 80 to 90 percent women. I never deep dived the reason, but I think it would probably have to do with some cultural issues but probably mostly with salary. If is very difficult to be a bread-winner working at NOVA or the like. So it stands to reason you would find more women instruction than men.

Also, I wouldn't lump all gaijin together, most on this board chose to live in Japan for the challenge of living another culture. Living in Kanagawa and knowing some American military (Navy), I would cut them some slack. Some want to be in Japan, some don't and their job is not to adapt to Japan outside of abiding by Japanese law.

Their job for the two to three years they are here is to provide regional security while furthering United States national interests in the area. Which means keep the ships moving and the their leadership would like them to that without incident. If you read the Kanagawa shinbun the US military does nothing else but get drunk, kill people and break things. So, 'they' make the base as comfortable and enticing as possible in the hopes of limit these types of incidents.

Also, the guys I met told me if they are not on ship they work 12-14 hours a day at the base, in English, then maybe 1 or 2 hours speaking with their girlfriend/wife. If they are on ship they are gone for about 6 months out of the year working 14-18 hours day. That sounds to me like an environment not conducive to learning a language.

The rest of us should be learning and adapting our lives in Japan, but that is just my opinion.
 
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