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The Game

I guess a lot of PUA end up with blue balls as they seem to underestimate the intelligence of women. Or at best they snag a few sketchy hounds who can't hold their drink.
 
As if, because I don't do it or use it, then no other man should be allowed to use it. Because I'm afraid to talk to women, you should be too or don't. If you do what I don't or are afraid to do, then this upsets me...

I like this, and it reminds me of something from The Hipcrime Vocab

IMPOSSIBLE
Means: 1 I wouldn’t like it and when it happens I won’t approve; 2 I can’t be bothered; 3 God can’t be bothered. Meaning 3 may perhaps be valid but the others are 101% whaledreck.

hahaha...

I guess a lot of PUA end up with blue balls as they seem to underestimate the intelligence of women. Or at best they snag a few sketchy hounds who can't hold their drink.

Actually it is precisely because of the fine social intelligence of women that they come to guys with game to hook up since most other guys will judge them for it. As for drinking - I don't like or go after women who have had more than a drink or two - it gets annoying and counterproductive, and they are neither good conversation partners nor bed partners. I've mentioned this before, but most pulls in broad daylight involve two stone-cold sober people having a fun conversation and agreeing to go back to a private location consciously. Often just before entering a house or love hotel we get a single drink and she has maybe a sip or two so she can say to herself she was "under the influence" and not feel guilt from society thinking she's a slut. I can't tell you how many 3/4 full drinks I've dumped down my sink after the girl happily comes over, squirts all over my house, then leaves like a little hit-and-run J-girl Jackson Pollack.

Is it so hard to imagine that women just like sex with cool guys? It has to always be a 'trick' or 'alcohol' or 'stupidity'? People should stop with the judgments just because they think its "impossible" for women to like men, often very quickly into an interaction - and instead just accept that human beings like sex, and that's not a bad thing.

Sex is cheap. Free, even. And given widely to those who don't make a big deal out of it.
 
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Respectfully disagree. I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but let me tell you about a past experience.
A few years ago, when working for some large company, I and hired a guy that was really talented, had graduated from an Ivy League university, and had worked for one of those companies only hiring the top 1% of applicants. Some day I pointed to him that most people I met with backgrounds similar to his were much less social and friendly. He told me his attitude used to make him lose friends, so he bought books, talked to people, worked on it, and became much happier with his life as a result. He was the stereotypical "I'm right" type of person whose attitude simply tired people around him (most people do not appreciate debating). Working on this was a win for everyone he knew, including me (as his attitude made him a great team player).
All this to say, even friendship is something people can be helped with, and I don't think courtship and dating should be excluded of it.

Moreover, I don't consider studying PUA things merely "self-consciousnessly adopting/mimicking someone else's ways of behaving and relating to people". The few resources I've found spend more time highlighting the reasons why most men fail, and what women are usually looking for. Techniques come after, as as application of what the learner understood from the basic psychology lessons. Humans learn from imitation, and PUA resources just enlarges the pool of people to learn from.

Not to put words in your mouth, but basically, your answer to "How do I get to stop all the women I meet from rejecting me or wanting me to be "just a friend"?" probably falls between "Stay natural, and follow your intuition that has led you to failure so far, it's gonna work some day.", and "Too bad, you're not made for this".
My answer is "Well, some people have put a lot of thought in this problem, consider reading from them, you might learn something helpful".
Some men just don't have enough empathy to put themselves in women's shoes without a bit of help.

You almost got me thinking this PUA stuff ain't so bad after all. It helps that you discuss it in a logical reasonable and non fanatical way.

There are certainly some aspects of it that serial failures can learn from. Not over complimenting and adding the occasional negative jibe provided it's more humorous than rude. Light touching but not too much of it. Knowing what it actually is you want and not being afraid of failure. But these are all things a lot of guys do instinctively anyway without ever having read a PUA
manual.

On more than one occasion in the past and in unlikely places, I have chatted to a girl in night clubs who I assumed was for sale, taken her home, and discovered she wasn't a prostitute. By assuming she was a sure thing to begin with, I was relaxed and very forward. Not in Japan though.

I still draw the line at harassing women on the street though
 
I guess a lot of PUA end up with blue balls as they seem to underestimate the intelligence of women. Or at best they snag a few sketchy hounds who can't hold their drink.

That's quite interesting, in numerous ways.

1) Guys who I've seen with the most blue balls have been NON-PUAs.

A PUA, of any study, would by definition be very active with finding and dating women. Versus a man that is afraid or has given up talking to women, and/or relieves his blue balls by paying women because he doesn't know how to get dates.

2) PUAs respect how intelligent, very cunning, and discerning that women can be. Therefore seek methods that are equal to the task.

3) Drunk women are often the game of NON-PUAs.

That is, the guy doesn't know any other way of sexually approaching women, except in the context of a club or bar. A PUA would have little fear of approaching women anywhere, during the day, and with no alcohol involved whatsoever.

4) Demonizing or attributing negative things to PUA, without knowing about it.

This strikes me as weirdest of all. Let's break down what PUA is- Pick Up Artist. So, are we saying talking to and picking up women is bad? If that isn't the objection, than is studying what is "pick up" and how women and men interact with each other bad? That's very strange. It's like if I tell someone, "Hey, you don't need to learn how to fight and any training is "bad". Just go out there and swing like a little angry girl in elementary school. You will be fine." Oh no, most men having any sense know that guys who train or develop a lot of skill by fighting, will usually be kicking other people's ass. Not saying every guy that trains will be a champ, but it certainly helps to be strong or know what what you are doing.
 
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I know the plural of anecdote is not data

I LOVE that line! If yours, hats off to you. In any case, I plan to steal it for use in (many) other contexts.

Not to put words in your mouth, but basically, your answer to "How do I get to stop all the women I meet from rejecting me or wanting me to be "just a friend"?" probably falls between "Stay natural, and follow your intuition that has led you to failure so far, it's gonna work some day.", and "Too bad, you're not made for this".
My answer is "Well, some people have put a lot of thought in this problem, consider reading from them, you might learn something helpful".
Some men just don't have enough empathy to put themselves in women's shoes without a bit of help.

Thanks for your thoughtful message. Tbh, I hear what you are saying and find it persuasive to some extent, but not entirely. We can all speak only from our own experiences and observations, and mine tell me that one is better off, at least usually, remaining "true to oneself" than trying to modify one's personality, behavior, feelings etc to achieve some purely social goal...even if you achieve that goal successfully. The benefits will be outweighed by costs, including invisible ones, imo and experience.

I am running out of new things to say on this topic. Actually I ran out a long while back in this series of threads. Now I am running out of new ways to say them. One more try:

Despite @Sinapse thinking that I am "lashing out" and @Solong talking about "demonizing" and such, I do NOT think that PUA is some horrible crime against humanity or some terrible moral depravity. There are lots of things that are worse obviously as @Sinapse frequently points out (making me think that he has some deep, possibly unconscious, doubt about PUA being an entirely good thing), and perhaps women treat men worse than men practicing PUA treat them (which brings similar thoughts to mind). I don't even think PUA is an important topic in the grand scheme of gender relations because very few guys give it more than brief passing attention as far as I can judge. Possibly it is even a good choice for guys who want to have sex with some exceptionally large number of women of some specific type (e.g., 10s or 100s per year of @Sinapse's "Category B" women as he defined them somewhere in a recent thread, complete with photo illustrations). Moreover, I don't think p4p is better than PUA in all respects or that it even has the same goal for most guys.

All that said, I do think PUA has some quite significant negatives/downsides, and it is definitely not what I would first (or second or third) suggest to some guy wanting to improve his dating/sex life (e.g., if, say, a friend or one of my sons asked me for advice). I also wouldn't put p4p high on the list, btw. There are just better options imo...and well known ones that have been discussed in these threads and many many other places.

To answer the implied question in the above quote from your post, my first advice would be to 1 - do things that you both enjoy for there own sake AND which increase your interactions with women, 2 - forget about the goal of having sex with any specific woman you meet and just enjoy interacting with them in a natural and casual way, 3 - relax and stop fearing rejection, and 4 - have faith that you can succeed in finding and attracting women with whom you, the actual you...not some persona that you have manufactured/built for the purpose, will have a successful connection...just like the huge majority of men who have ever lived. I know that some of these things (especially #2 and #3) are much easier said than done (but so is PUA for that matter), but you don't have to succeed immediately or on the first few attempts (again true of PUA also); they will get easier with practice and experience.

Finally when I say "PUA", I mostly mean "cold PUA"...what might be called "warm PUA" seems so hard to define and to have so many grey areas, it is hard to say anything specific about it. Aside from it being bad/disadvantageous for the guy, "cold PUA" has the downside that many women find it significantly annoying (they frequently say so) and some find it much worse ("panic and flee"). Note that I said "downside", not a total objection...a personal judgement call as I have agreed in other threads/posts, but my personal judgement is that I'd prefer not to bother people enough that they complain if possible. Now perhaps "true PUA" as defined and practiced by our local experts (@Sinapse and @Solong) does not bother women much at all; I'm willing to take their word for it. But what many of the guys who consider themselves to be PUAs do and what many of the women I've heard discuss PUA consider it to be, certainly does annoy many attractive young women.

In a way, I agree with @Solong that it is an option and that options are good and even that it may be the best option for a few guys, but for the large majority I think there are better ways to go...ways that will have much better outcomes for them.

-Ww
 
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It's like if I tell someone, "Hey, you don't need to learn how to fight and any training is "bad". Just go out there and swing like a little angry girl in elementary school. You will be fine." Oh no, most men having any sense know that guys who train or develop a lot of skill by fighting, will usually be kicking other people's ass. Not saying every guy that trains will be a champ, but it certainly helps to be strong or know what what you are doing.

If pick-ups, dating and seducuction were as adversarial as fighting, I'd totally agree with you. One of the major downsides to PUA imo is that it encourages an adversarial mindset/attitude in relationships.

You constantly use adversarial metaphors and language in discussing not only PUA but gender relationships in many contexts. It seems to me that this is where our many disagreements ultimately arise. I don't and never have perceived women as my adversaries in life or in relationships. At most I occasionally make jokes along those lines. I don't know if it is meaningful to say that one of us is right and the other wrong in our perspectives, but in any case, I think we have a deeply different notion of the nature of connections between men and women.

-Ww
 
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If pick-ups, dating and seducuction were as adversarial as fighting, I'd totally agree with you. One of the major downsides to PUA imo is that it encourages an adversarial mindset/attitude in relationships.

You constantly use adversarial metaphors and language in discussing not only PUA but gender relationships in many contexts. It seems to me that this is where our many disagreements ultimately arise. I don't and never have perceived women as my adversaries in life or in relationships. At most I occasionally make jokes along those lines. I don't know if it is meaningful to say that one of us is right and the other wrong in our perspectives, but in any case, I think we have a deeply different notion of the nature of connections between men and women.

-Ww
You seem to be trying to spin things again, to pigeonhole, versus the actual point of what was stated. The point wasn't about being adverserial towards women. I gave an analogy about learning, training, and skill. So was using Boxing (or we can use any sport), as this is something most men would understand.

It is absolutely ludicrous to tell a Boxer to be "natural" and that he need not learn, train, or develop any skill at what he chooses to do. If you like, we can use a female gymnast. Tell her she need not train or develop any skill, besides be "natural" and do whatever.

You know this, but avoid acknowledging it. If a man is failing at getting dates or seeks to know more about the seduction process between men and women, there is nothing wrong with him studying it or wanting to get good at it.
 
The point wasn't about being adverserial towards women. I gave an analogy about learning, training, and skill.

Yes, I understand that you were headed somewhere else with that analogy, but I was addressing a different, and I thnk deeper, point.

I can give an alternative example. You often mention that changes in bc technology, economic factors, cultural values etc have given women an increasing advantage or men a disadvantage in some way. This whole rhetoric is incoherent for me. How can something (in gender relations) be an advantage for women without also being an advantage for men? It simply doesn't make sense in my view of the world because it clearly carries such adversarial presumptions. It would be as if you said to me, X is an advantage for your children; that automatically makes it an advantage for me too.

Do you see how profoundly that little transformation changes the picture?

-Ww
 
The Battle of the Sexes

Where did this phrase come from I wonder

Relationship are only a battle if you choice to make it so. OK, you get the occasional argument but a successful couple resolve it easily. A lesser couple don't talk for a week.

Making analogies to prove ones point is usually bad logic and something populist politicians do to hoodwink suckers.

I see no connection between a female gymnast and a jerk in Shibuya who harasses women on the street
 
Making analogies to prove ones point is usually bad logic and something populist politicians do to hoodwink suckers.

Let's not push the off-topic too far, but here it's clear that @Solong was not making analogies to prove is point, but to illustrate it. Should you have an issue with the said "bad logic", please attack the logic directly, not the illustration.

This aside, I'm not a big fan of picking up random girls on the street either, except when the situation makes it really normal or obvious (eg: something unexpected happens in front of you, and the only person next to you is a hot girl). Then again, I'm lucky enough to live a life in which meeting new women is not rare.
Even though PUA means pick-up artist, the material I consider the most valuable in this domain is ironically not related to "pick-up", but more to any sort of encounter. There are many places where meeting women could be deemed as normal, and I usually not consider the street to be one of those.
 
Let's not push the off-topic too far, but here it's clear that @Solong was not making analogies to prove is point, but to illustrate it. Should you have an issue with the said "bad logic", please attack the logic directly, not the illustration.

This aside, I'm not a big fan of picking up random girls on the street either, except when the situation makes it really normal or obvious (eg: something unexpected happens in front of you, and the only person next to you is a hot girl). Then again, I'm lucky enough to live a life in which meeting new women is not rare.
Even though PUA means pick-up artist, the material I consider the most valuable in this domain is ironically not related to "pick-up", but more to any sort of encounter. There are many places where meeting women could be deemed as normal, and I usually not consider the street to be one of those.

Now I know for sure you were educated at the Sorbonne ( then MBA at MITI or Harvard ). This already puts you on a higher intellectual plain than everyone else here.:vulcan::pigeon:

" prove" and " illustrate " a point are used loosely in English but in strict terms you are absolument correct.

Only an idiot would try arguing philosophy with a product from un Grand Ecole and sorry for the lack of accent acute they don't have them here :smug::android:

As much as I respect the views of Ww Skipper and Solong, they have a tendency to waffle or overstate which makes it harder to convince the skeptical. I often have to reread their posts to grasp their intended meaning

Not to say that my posts are any better but makes a welcome distraction from cleaning the latrines :poop:
 
One of the major downsides to PUA imo is that it encourages an adversarial mindset/attitude in relationships.

No it doesn't.

I think we have a deeply different notion of the nature of connections between men and women.

You and Solong do have different notions, or frames. You and "PUA" are not as drastically different as you'd like to believe or make out.


----------------------

The point I'd like to make here is that "PUA" is used in these conversations as a canon, in much the same way that something is either written in the Bible or not. If it is in the Bible, it is part of literal Christianity, if it's not (like the dead sea scrolls and apocrypha), it's not. Somehow, even with the "canon" people still understand from the beginning that Christians believe all sorts of different things, and that you might conceivably get along very well with one and not at all with another. This is NOT THE CASE when we are talking about 'PUA' where some people on this board seem to think that all PUAs are the same and that all PUA tactics are tricky and manipulative without ever actually talking about specifics. This is surface level, emotionally-laden value judgments and relates little to the reality of what we do. Even @Wwanderer who for the most part I think is legitimately trying to engage here without just throwing out vague judgments and negative qualifiers without backing them up also seems to often paint PUA in broad strokes where no such monolithic body of practitioners or material exist. There is no "PUA board" or exam, instead you have a huge variety of different people teaching and doing different things, with varying degrees of success and methods. The blatant refusal of participants in these debates to accept the plurality of ideas and schools of thought within the umbrella term of "PUA" makes it very difficult to have intelligent, nuanced debate. To be fair here, @Wwanderer mentioned the plurality at times, but then comes back with quotes like the above "PUA encourages adversarial mindset", which is patently false and only reflects a single trend or line of thinking within some, not all or even most PUA literature.

SO: I'm going to try not to even use the acronym "PUA" from here on out since it seems to be an easy target for value-based judgments of little factual substance, and instead use the much wider term 'success with women' and the much less ambiguous term 'cold approach'.

I think people will agree when I say that putting conscious effort and time into 'success with women' is something worthwhile and possible. Furthermore 'success with women' relates to not only cold approach, but online dating, social circle, hobbies and introductions from friends, body language, intonation, language fluency, communication, etc.

I think that in actuality, most people don't have a problem with spending time improving one's success with women, but rather, with the particular method of cold approach (particularly on the street).

The basic arguments are:

-It doesn't work.
Actually, it does. It is very repeatable and possible, should you put in the effort. It almost always has some iteration like "I saw a dude outside of a station talk to a few girls and they all rejected him! HAHAHA what a loser" *goes home and cries into his pillow while masturbating, happy in his moral sense of superiority over that fool in Shinjuku*

By definition, you WON'T SEE GOOD PICKUP. Good pickup is invisible because a guy who can actually do it well simply walks along with her talking as if he's known her for years. To the untrained eye, it just looks like two friends who decide to walk into a bar or a hotel together, it seems as if they were together the whole time. Not to mention, the ones who are bad at pickup are the ones who are still stuck on the street since they haven't pulled yet. Saturday night I spent all day writing, and went out at around 11pm to walk my friend back to the station. On the way back, I talked to a single girl, and she ended up coming back to my house. It doesn't always happen that quickly, but if you had been at that station watching the "pickup dudes" talk to a bunch of girls and get rejected, you wouldn't have seen me at all, pulling the only girl I talked to home.

The only pickup you will see is bad pickup, and the only nanpa you hear complained about is bad nanpa. By definition the good ones don't get discussed or seen.

In short, tl;dr, sampling bias. I'm not really going to spend more time on this objection since it is just pure mental denial without any basis in fact.

-It's a waste of time.
If you don't enjoy it, yes it probably is a waste of time. If you don't like the chase, the dance of courtship, and you just want to insert as fast as possible, you should probably just do p4p! It's much more simple and you certainly do know what you're going to get! But, if you love just talking to women, like I do, I think it definitely IS worth it. Once you get this handled, you will never have to worry about it the rest of your life. Spend a while thinking about it and getting good at all phases of the interaction, and then you can throw everything away since you've become natural with it. You can simply walk through life being natural and women will gravitate towards you. BUT you do need to go through the process first. Failure to do so will result in minimal results and lots of emotional pain and feelings of inadequacy.

-It is harassment.
This has been talked about at length. Some people think talking to someone you don't know is harassment, but I really disagree. I would hate to live in a world where it was illegal or highly unpleasant to talk to strangers - and I love public performace art, random encounters like someone running up to me and giving me a flower for no reason, street performers, and the ability to bend the rules of society. A world without these kinds of things - pure social freedom within reason - is a world I don't want to live in.

Without getting into too much detail, Japan Lair (the main area for guys learning game in Japan) had a series of run-ins and bad experiences with promoting for pickup companies which ended up being scams and horribly culturally irrelevant and massive flops. Now, they promote for no pickup company and have banned nearly all of them - from RSD to PickupAsia (again, a plurality of people, techniques, and ideas within the umbrella of "PUA"). The ONLY people sanctioned by that site are myself and long-time gamer and instructor Dorian Gray. Dorian Gray always talked about how his approach was heavily influenced by situationism. I'm sure he could explain this better than I, but (from Wikipedia):

"The situationists believed that the shift from individual expression through directly lived experiences, or the first-hand fulfillment of authentic desires, to individual expression by proxy through the exchange or consumption of commodities, or passive second-hand alienation, inflicted significant and far-reaching damage to the quality of human life for both individuals and society.[1] Another important concept of situationist theory was the primary means of counteracting the spectacle; the construction of situations, moments of life deliberately constructed for the purpose of reawakening and pursuing authentic desires, experiencing the feeling of life and adventure, and the liberation of everyday life.[1][2]"

God forbid we refuse to accept the modern rules and means of courtship and instead take our love lives into our own hands by directly and proactively seeking out our authentic desires! Must we have "individual expression by proxy through the exchange or consumption of commodities?" One could even read situationism as a MASSIVE indictment not only of capitalism, but prostitution as an industry as well! In other words: capitalism has MADE sexuality a commodity, something which CAN be bought and sold, rather than something to be done only for its own sake. Animals don't pay for sex - it wouldn't even make sense for them. They just do it, with whom they want, where they want, how they want, and they don't care about whoever is judging them for it.

While I thoroughly reject the notion that the act of sex is even a commodity which can be bought in the first place, I still will defend people's liberty to do what they will - so long as they aren't hurting anybody. In a practical, real-world sense, I think prostitution is therapeutic and helps guys who need it, so I'm 100% for it sticking around and becoming legalized and regulated for health and crime reasons. As for approaching women you find attractive - this is what human men have been doing for millenia, and to deny someone who wants to do that is to deny your impulse under the banner of "shame" and "guilt" for something which is natural. Let people talk to who they like in public, lest we slip into fascism.
 
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The basic arguments are:

-It doesn't work.
Actually, it does. It is very repeatable and possible, should you put in the effort. It almost always has some iteration like "I saw a dude outside of a station talk to a few girls and they all rejected him! HAHAHA what a loser" *goes home and cries into his pillow while masturbating, happy in his moral sense of superiority over that fool in Shinjuku*

By definition, you WON'T SEE GOOD PICKUP. Good pickup is invisible because a guy who can actually do it well simply walks along with her talking as if he's known her for years. To the untrained eye, it just looks like two friends who decide to walk into a bar or a hotel together, it seems as if they were together the whole time. Not to mention, the ones who are bad at pickup are the ones who are still stuck on the street since they haven't pulled yet. Saturday night I spent all day writing, and went out at around 11pm to walk my friend back to the station. On the way back, I talked to a single girl, and she ended up coming back to my house. It doesn't always happen that quickly, but if you had been at that station watching the "pickup dudes" talk to a bunch of girls and get rejected, you wouldn't have seen me at all, pulling the only girl I talked to home.

The only pickup you will see is bad pickup, and the only nanpa you hear complained about is bad nanpa. By definition the good ones don't get discussed or seen.

You brought up an excellent point. I think those who don't know PUA or understand pick up, can be convinced it doesn't work because they have seen instances of it failing or it has failed when they tried.

The guy who SCORED by successfully picking up a woman is often totally ignored or unseen. It's often assumed he KNEW her. Success doesn't catch their attention, only the failures, and failure is all they focus on.

This is common when guys don't understand the "math" associated with "cold approaching". This relates to not only the PUA realm, but being a salesman or even Baseball. There is NO such a thing as a 100% sucess rate. No Baseball player that has ever lived was able to bat a 1000. In fact, a batting average of .300 and getting a hit less than 1/3 of the time is excellent.

If a guy approaches 9 women, gets 3 phone numbers, and goes out on a date with 1 of the 3 women that gave a phone number, is he a success or failure?

You can approach 9 women in 1 hour. So for 1 hour of your time and effort, you could secure a date for say Saturday night.

The guy that makes no effort and is afraid of failure has 0 dates for Saturday. His excuse is he saw the other guy fail 6 times or a few times, so has convinced himself it doesn't work. He has focused only on the possibility of failure, not the possibility of success. He isn't understanding that the true source of failure is lack of effort and not trying.

If you swing, you have a chance of hitting a homerun. If you never swing, you have 0 chance. Making excuses for never taking a swing, is continually destroying any chance of success, by keeping it at 0.
 
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Going from the mindset 'I saw him fail 6 times' to 'I saw him get 3 numbers'... or along the same lines: 'I'm bothering the girl, this is unnatural, let's just let life happen etc' to 'I'm gonna go make her day, this could be the beginning of something great, I'm taking responsibility for my own destiny etc' - this shift in perspective seems like one of the biggest hurdles to get over for skeptics. I bet it's after your mind makes this shift that cold approaching really starts getting results too.
 
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Now I know for sure you were educated at the Sorbonne ( then MBA at MITI or Harvard ). This already puts you on a higher intellectual plain than everyone else here.:vulcan::pigeon:

" prove" and " illustrate " a point are used loosely in English but in strict terms you are absolument correct.

Only an idiot would try arguing philosophy with a product from un Grand Ecole and sorry for the lack of accent acute they don't have them here :smug::android:

As much as I respect the views of Ww Skipper and Solong, they have a tendency to waffle or overstate which makes it harder to convince the skeptical. I often have to reread their posts to grasp their intended meaning

Not to say that my posts are any better but makes a welcome distraction from cleaning the latrines :poop:

Like feminism, PUA is a very complex subject so I'll try and keep it as simple as my grasp of English will allows. Also, I will try not to use analogique to épreuver or illustrer n e points.

Did anybody notice that contained in the above post was a very important PUA technique? It's what we call " Assumption Building " in the game

Imagine you just done your cold calling Stop ' n' Shock routine on da street, come out with a great original one liner like " Jeez you're so cute I just had to tell you in case you'd forgotten ", got the attention of the target, and struck up a conversation with a hot chick. You notice a buncha text books in her bag so you say " you're a student DEZ NE ". In the unlikely event you guess right she will assume you are a true prophet blessed with intuition and interested in her as a person rather than just a piece of ass. She will say ”よく知ってるね" or ”お前天才だ". Anything else and you're fucked if you don't understand Japanese. If you're wrong, it's still more interesting than just asking
"So what do you do then or don't you wanna tell me? "
" Non, va te faire foûtre you saddo you loser you douchebag pile a shit"

You will soon get used to rejection because you'll get rejected a lot. It's just part of a woman's bitch's shield and nothing to do with you so don't let it bother you or take it personally. Remember, rejection is her problem not yours.

Another example and one of my favorite goes like this

" So you're from the US of A then? What state? "
" No I'm from Canada? "
" Canada? How long you had that problem? "

Notice the next PUA technique in the third line which we call " negging " in the game. It's designed to subtly attack her self esteem and put you in a commanding position. The chick will find you intriguing and a challenge. You may also find out her age without asking directly. If she's under 18 then run which is why I always recommend my clients to wear a flashy but comfortable pair of sneakers.

Some PUA experts call this methodology push-pull with push being your negging and pull saying something nice to build up her confidence you just took down. This technique was used by interrogators in Vietnam but some historians trace it back as far as the Spanish Civil War where the Dead Sea scrolls were unearthed.

The gig with PUA techniques is that they are all based on psychology research conducted on mice by Richard Head and Bates, two legendary PUA therapists. If these techniques didn't work the movement wouldn't have become the widespread phenomena sorry phenomenum it is today :stinkyfeet::playful:

All I can advise right now is that you get out on da streets and start honing your PUA skills.

Japan is so great place for PUA because
1) It's new here
2) J chicks don't used to it coz it's new here
3) J chicks don't yet developed strategy to counter the power of PUA
4) ask Solong
5) ask Espanish
6) Some J girls feel bad about turning a guy down

As Moss Boss said, you might end up with blue balls but the tissue will regenerate and you won't have much use for them anyway.

Learning PUA skills is no different from reading up on management and corporate politics or how to become a female gymnast.

You don't got no excuse for failure.

I'm luvin' it!
 
Like feminism, PUA is a very complex subject so I'll try and keep it as simple as my grasp of English will allows. Also, I will try not to use analogique to épreuver or illustrer n e points.

Did anybody notice that contained in the above post was a very important PUA technique? It's what we call " Assumption Building " in the game

Imagine you just done your cold calling Stop ' n' Shock routine on da street, come out with a great original one liner like " Jeez you're so cute I just had to tell you in case you'd forgotten ", got the attention of the target, and struck up a conversation with a hot chick. You notice a buncha text books in her bag so you say " you're a student DEZ NE ". In the unlikely event you guess right she will assume you are a true prophet blessed with intuition and interested in her as a person rather than just a piece of ass. She will say ”よく知ってるね" or ”お前天才だ". Anything else and you're fucked if you don't understand Japanese. If you're wrong, it's still more interesting than just asking
"So what do you do then or don't you wanna tell me? "
" Non, va te faire foûtre you saddo you loser you douchebag pile a shit"

You will soon get used to rejection because you'll get rejected a lot. It's just part of a woman's bitch's shield and nothing to do with you so don't let it bother you or take it personally. Remember, rejection is her problem not yours.

Another example and one of my favorite goes like this

" So you're from the US of A then? What state? "
" No I'm from Canada? "
" Canada? How long you had that problem? "

Notice the next PUA technique in the third line which we call " negging " in the game. It's designed to subtly attack her self esteem and put you in a commanding position. The chick will find you intriguing and a challenge. You may also find out her age without asking directly. If she's under 18 then run which is why I always recommend my clients to wear a flashy but comfortable pair of sneakers.

Some PUA experts call this methodology push-pull with push being your negging and pull saying something nice to build up her confidence you just took down. This technique was used by interrogators in Vietnam but some historians trace it back as far as the Spanish Civil War where the Dead Sea scrolls were unearthed.

The gig with PUA techniques is that they are all based on psychology research conducted on mice by Richard Head and Bates, two legendary PUA therapists. If these techniques didn't work the movement wouldn't have become the widespread phenomena sorry phenomenum it is today :stinkyfeet::playful:

All I can advise right now is that you get out on da streets and start honing your PUA skills.

Japan is so great place for PUA because
1) It's new here
2) J chicks don't used to it coz it's new here
3) J chicks don't yet developed strategy to counter the power of PUA
4) ask Solong
5) ask Espanish
6) Some J girls feel bad about turning a guy down

As Moss Boss said, you might end up with blue balls but the tissue will regenerate and you won't have much use for them anyway.

Learning PUA skills is no different from reading up on management and corporate politics or how to become a female gymnast.

You don't got no excuse for failure.

I'm luvin' it!

jwdrp.gif
 
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The point I'd like to make here is that "PUA" is used in these conversations as a canon, in much the same way that something is either written in the Bible or not. If it is in the Bible, it is part of literal Christianity, if it's not (like the dead sea scrolls and apocrypha), it's not. Somehow, even with the "canon" people still understand from the beginning that Christians believe all sorts of different things, and that you might conceivably get along very well with one and not at all with another. This is NOT THE CASE when we are talking about 'PUA' where some people on this board seem to think that all PUAs are the same and that all PUA tactics are tricky and manipulative without ever actually talking about specifics. This is surface level, emotionally-laden value judgments and relates little to the reality of what we do. Even @Wwanderer who for the most part I think is legitimately trying to engage here without just throwing out vague judgments and negative qualifiers without backing them up also seems to often paint PUA in broad strokes where no such monolithic body of practitioners or material exist. There is no "PUA board" or exam, instead you have a huge variety of different people teaching and doing different things, with varying degrees of success and methods. The blatant refusal of participants in these debates to accept the plurality of ideas and schools of thought within the umbrella term of "PUA" makes it very difficult to have intelligent, nuanced debate. To be fair here, @Wwanderer mentioned the plurality at times, but then comes back with quotes like the above "PUA encourages adversarial mindset", which is patently false and only reflects a single trend or line of thinking within some, not all or even most PUA literature.

SO: I'm going to try not to even use the acronym "PUA" from here on out since it seems to be an easy target for value-based judgments of little factual substance, and instead use the much wider term 'success with women' and the much less ambiguous term 'cold approach'.

There is much in the (excellent) post above to which I would like to respond and might even be able to do so at some point (when time permits), but for now, I'd just like to point out that while you identify a very real problem in discussing PUA...the facts that the term is used to refer to many different things by different people (lots of whom seem to believe that *they* "own" its one and only true/correct meaning) and that for many people it seems to come loaded with pre-judgements (positive as well as negative), it is also true that

1 - Lots of other things have the same problem. Examples would include feminism, science, astrology, libertarianism (or socialism if you wish), Buddhism (or Christianity as you mention)...one could go on almost indefinitely. We/people routinely talk about many such things and sort of implicitly understand that whatever is being said about X, be it good or bad or indifferent, doesn't apply universally to to everything that anyone calls X but is intended to apply to somethings that are called X by many people. It would be too clumsy to always repeat those caveats in nearly every sentence in a discussion. So, if I say something like "PUA encourages an adversarial mindset", what I mean and what any reasonable reader should understand is something like "some versions of what quite a few people call PUA encourages an adversarial mindset". If someone said, "feminism encourages hostility toward males", many feminist could legitimately object that what they consider feminism, the feminism they embrace, does not; yet it might still be true that a lot of what is called feminism does encourage hostility toward males". One solution is the one you suggest; just drop use of a term that is too vague and has too many meanings to be useful. However, that quickly becomes awkward and rarely catches on.

2 - The knife cuts in both directions. If PUA is "to be an easy target for value-based judgments of little factual substance" (which I could easily believe), this makes not only its criticism vacuous/shallow but also its praise.

-Ww
 
There is much in the (excellent) post above to which I would like to respond and might even be able to do so at some point (when time permits), but for now, I'd just like to point out that while you identify a very real problem in discussing PUA...the facts that the term is used to refer to many different things by different people (lots of whom seem to believe that *they* "own" its one and only true/correct meaning) and that for many people it seems to come loaded with pre-judgements (positive as well as negative), it is also true that

1 - Lots of other things have the same problem. Examples would include feminism, science, astrology, libertarianism (or socialism if you wish), Buddhism (or Christianity as you mention)...one could go on almost indefinitely. We/people routinely talk about many such things and sort of implicitly understand that whatever is being said about X, be it good or bad or indifferent, doesn't apply universally to to everything that anyone calls X but is intended to apply to somethings that are called X by many people. It would be too clumsy to always repeat those caveats in nearly every sentence in a discussion. So, if I say something like "PUA encourages an adversarial mindset", what I mean and what any reasonable reader should understand is something like "some versions of what quite a few people call PUA encourages an adversarial mindset". If someone said, "feminism encourages hostility toward males", many feminist could legitimately object that what they consider feminism, the feminism they embrace, does not; yet it might still be true that a lot of what is called feminism does encourage hostility toward males". One solution is the one you suggest; just drop use of a term that is too vague and has too many meanings to be useful. However, that quickly becomes awkward and rarely catches on.

2 - The knife cuts in both directions. If PUA is "to be an easy target for value-based judgments of little factual substance" (which I could easily believe), this makes not only its criticism vacuous/shallow but also its praise.

-Ww

The reason y you dont got time is that you wasted it reading that post!

The longer the attempt to convince, the less convincing it becomes. No matter how much you pad it out with analogique containing feminists, kick boxers or Dead Sea trolls.

As they say in my country,

"L'analogique, c'est l'escroquerie!"
 
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2 - The knife cuts in both directions. If PUA is "to be an easy target for value-based judgments of little factual substance" (which I could easily believe), this makes not only its criticism vacuous/shallow but also its praise.

Yup, and I'm always happy to discuss specific cases and behaviors taught by specific people. I'm just trying to avoid blanket statements from other people that are trying to tell ME what I teach or believe. The general logic is "Mystery taught negging which means insulting to men, so Sinapse and all other people who are even remotely related to PUA as a whole must also teach and believe that insulting women is good." I trust I've already explained the multiple logical fallacies and misunderstandings in these arguments that I don't have to do this again. The point is, most often these are wrong and misrepresenting what I do, so thats why I'm pushing back against them.

So, if I say something like "PUA encourages an adversarial mindset", what I mean and what any reasonable reader should understand is something like "some versions of what quite a few people call PUA encourages an adversarial mindset"

It certainly would be nice if everybody engaged as diplomatically and with as much nuance and attempt to understand as you do. Alas, this is not the case
 
Speaking as one of the original pioneer of PUA, what worries me about you chappies is that you spend so much time thinking and writing that you are missing out on valuable day game, assuming that is when you do your writing. If u write at nite, ur missing out on nite game. The PUA founding fathers Mystery, Lovedrop or Matador would have some strong words to say to you and these are household names who knows what they've talking about.

Seems like our Espanish is having difficulty trying to épreuver ou illustrer that he is différent (meilleur ) than all the experts. I'd gladly offer some tips but at the end of the day, every PUA technician has to pick and choose and adapt from the tools disposable in approved PUA manuals and do what works best for yourself. For example, you mite want to cut down on the negging and build up the kino, or concentrate your efforts solely on your assumption building. It may sound difficult but a PUA expert can identify his type of target and act accordingly.

Despite the plurality inherent in PUA philosophy, the conceptual reality is very much a hands on physicaly based approach despite what some renegade PUA pundits may assert to the contrary.Dont listen to those dudes.

The main problem with PUA is its complexity. Like feminism or dialects of Chinese , it means many different things to many different people. The result is confusion so that 2 PUA consultants, meeting for the first time, could conceivably not recognize what the other is talking about.

Probably best to stick to the model developed by the current undisputed masters in the field, Cunningham, Head and Bates. The critics unanimous choice as the opus magnum or masterpiece of all PUA literature is Matt Bates' wonderful work entitled " Optimizing Your Dick : The Ins and Outs of PUA . "

It has already sold over one million copies in the USA alone and been translated into 20 languages. Thankfully Japanese is not one of them but herein lies the danger. When rather than if that time comes, the cat will be out of the bag, not to mean wave of feminist literature exposing our sacrosanct tactics.

The consequences are too horrific to contemplate. There will be more PUA practitioners outside Ebisu station than punters getting trains. Turf wars between white and Hispanic, Indian and Chinese, Japanese and Haitians. The Yakuza and police will get involved and a nationwide clampdown on PUA announced. Not even the best analogique in the world will save our sorry asses, Dead Sea scrolls n all. It will be the Armageddon of stop n shock, assumption building, kino, negging and closing.

These are the golden days of PUA and therefore a crime not to maximize them b4 it's 2 l8. So get your lazy fat butts to Gakugei Daigaku station and find some fine pieces of ass to neg.
 
The PUA founding fathers Mystery, Lovedrop or Matador.

This is a real question, believe it or not, and I realize that it has nothing to do with the value or nature of PUA, but why do these PUA leaders/teachers take silly pseudonyms that sound like they belong to some comic book superheroes? Or, for that matter, why do they use pseudonyms at all? To my ears it makes them sound like adolescents, but that is not my point. Why do they do it at all? Are they hiding something for some reason or do they think it sounds cool or ...?

-Ww
 
The consequences are too horrific to contemplate. There will be more PUA practitioners outside Ebisu station than punters getting trains. Turf wars between white and Hispanic, Indian and Chinese, Japanese and Haitians. The Yakuza and police will get involved and a nationwide clampdown on PUA announced. Not even the best analogique in the world will save our sorry asses, Dead Sea scrolls n all. It will be the Armageddon of stop n shock, assumption building, kino, negging and closing

Mate that would be funny if it actually happened. Reminds me of something a drunk man wondered out loud to me once - whether civilizations are built and destroyed purely out of Man's sexual frustration
 
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Don't feed the trolls..

This is a real question, believe it or not, and I realize that it has nothing to do with the value or nature of PUA, but why do these PUA leaders/teachers take silly pseudonyms that sound like they belong to some comic book superheroes? Or, for that matter, why do they use pseudonyms at all? To my ears it makes them sound like adolescents, but that is not my point. Why do they do it at all? Are they hiding something for some reason or do they think it sounds cool or ...?

-Ww

Why do you use a pseudonym on this site? Why does User#16452?
 
Why do you use a pseudonym on this site? Why does User#16452?

I do it to hide my real identity and thus separate my p4p and extra-marital np4p life from my conventional family and professional lives. Duh!

But why would PUA guys need to do that? What consequences do they fear if their PUA activities were linked to their real identities and why? It surprises me. Seriously.

-Ww
 
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Mate that would be funny if it actually happened. Reminds me of something a drunk man wondered out loud to me once - whether civilizations are built and destroyed purely out of Man's sexual frustration

They laughed at Dean Martin but history proved them wrong
 
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