MossBoss
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I guess a lot of PUA end up with blue balls as they seem to underestimate the intelligence of women. Or at best they snag a few sketchy hounds who can't hold their drink.
As if, because I don't do it or use it, then no other man should be allowed to use it. Because I'm afraid to talk to women, you should be too or don't. If you do what I don't or are afraid to do, then this upsets me...
IMPOSSIBLE
Means: 1 I wouldn’t like it and when it happens I won’t approve; 2 I can’t be bothered; 3 God can’t be bothered. Meaning 3 may perhaps be valid but the others are 101% whaledreck.
I guess a lot of PUA end up with blue balls as they seem to underestimate the intelligence of women. Or at best they snag a few sketchy hounds who can't hold their drink.
Respectfully disagree. I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but let me tell you about a past experience.
A few years ago, when working for some large company, I and hired a guy that was really talented, had graduated from an Ivy League university, and had worked for one of those companies only hiring the top 1% of applicants. Some day I pointed to him that most people I met with backgrounds similar to his were much less social and friendly. He told me his attitude used to make him lose friends, so he bought books, talked to people, worked on it, and became much happier with his life as a result. He was the stereotypical "I'm right" type of person whose attitude simply tired people around him (most people do not appreciate debating). Working on this was a win for everyone he knew, including me (as his attitude made him a great team player).
All this to say, even friendship is something people can be helped with, and I don't think courtship and dating should be excluded of it.
Moreover, I don't consider studying PUA things merely "self-consciousnessly adopting/mimicking someone else's ways of behaving and relating to people". The few resources I've found spend more time highlighting the reasons why most men fail, and what women are usually looking for. Techniques come after, as as application of what the learner understood from the basic psychology lessons. Humans learn from imitation, and PUA resources just enlarges the pool of people to learn from.
Not to put words in your mouth, but basically, your answer to "How do I get to stop all the women I meet from rejecting me or wanting me to be "just a friend"?" probably falls between "Stay natural, and follow your intuition that has led you to failure so far, it's gonna work some day.", and "Too bad, you're not made for this".
My answer is "Well, some people have put a lot of thought in this problem, consider reading from them, you might learn something helpful".
Some men just don't have enough empathy to put themselves in women's shoes without a bit of help.
I guess a lot of PUA end up with blue balls as they seem to underestimate the intelligence of women. Or at best they snag a few sketchy hounds who can't hold their drink.
I know the plural of anecdote is not data
Not to put words in your mouth, but basically, your answer to "How do I get to stop all the women I meet from rejecting me or wanting me to be "just a friend"?" probably falls between "Stay natural, and follow your intuition that has led you to failure so far, it's gonna work some day.", and "Too bad, you're not made for this".
My answer is "Well, some people have put a lot of thought in this problem, consider reading from them, you might learn something helpful".
Some men just don't have enough empathy to put themselves in women's shoes without a bit of help.
It's like if I tell someone, "Hey, you don't need to learn how to fight and any training is "bad". Just go out there and swing like a little angry girl in elementary school. You will be fine." Oh no, most men having any sense know that guys who train or develop a lot of skill by fighting, will usually be kicking other people's ass. Not saying every guy that trains will be a champ, but it certainly helps to be strong or know what what you are doing.
You seem to be trying to spin things again, to pigeonhole, versus the actual point of what was stated. The point wasn't about being adverserial towards women. I gave an analogy about learning, training, and skill. So was using Boxing (or we can use any sport), as this is something most men would understand.If pick-ups, dating and seducuction were as adversarial as fighting, I'd totally agree with you. One of the major downsides to PUA imo is that it encourages an adversarial mindset/attitude in relationships.
You constantly use adversarial metaphors and language in discussing not only PUA but gender relationships in many contexts. It seems to me that this is where our many disagreements ultimately arise. I don't and never have perceived women as my adversaries in life or in relationships. At most I occasionally make jokes along those lines. I don't know if it is meaningful to say that one of us is right and the other wrong in our perspectives, but in any case, I think we have a deeply different notion of the nature of connections between men and women.
-Ww
The point wasn't about being adverserial towards women. I gave an analogy about learning, training, and skill.
Making analogies to prove ones point is usually bad logic and something populist politicians do to hoodwink suckers.
Let's not push the off-topic too far, but here it's clear that @Solong was not making analogies to prove is point, but to illustrate it. Should you have an issue with the said "bad logic", please attack the logic directly, not the illustration.
This aside, I'm not a big fan of picking up random girls on the street either, except when the situation makes it really normal or obvious (eg: something unexpected happens in front of you, and the only person next to you is a hot girl). Then again, I'm lucky enough to live a life in which meeting new women is not rare.
Even though PUA means pick-up artist, the material I consider the most valuable in this domain is ironically not related to "pick-up", but more to any sort of encounter. There are many places where meeting women could be deemed as normal, and I usually not consider the street to be one of those.
One of the major downsides to PUA imo is that it encourages an adversarial mindset/attitude in relationships.
I think we have a deeply different notion of the nature of connections between men and women.
The basic arguments are:
-It doesn't work.
Actually, it does. It is very repeatable and possible, should you put in the effort. It almost always has some iteration like "I saw a dude outside of a station talk to a few girls and they all rejected him! HAHAHA what a loser" *goes home and cries into his pillow while masturbating, happy in his moral sense of superiority over that fool in Shinjuku*
By definition, you WON'T SEE GOOD PICKUP. Good pickup is invisible because a guy who can actually do it well simply walks along with her talking as if he's known her for years. To the untrained eye, it just looks like two friends who decide to walk into a bar or a hotel together, it seems as if they were together the whole time. Not to mention, the ones who are bad at pickup are the ones who are still stuck on the street since they haven't pulled yet. Saturday night I spent all day writing, and went out at around 11pm to walk my friend back to the station. On the way back, I talked to a single girl, and she ended up coming back to my house. It doesn't always happen that quickly, but if you had been at that station watching the "pickup dudes" talk to a bunch of girls and get rejected, you wouldn't have seen me at all, pulling the only girl I talked to home.
The only pickup you will see is bad pickup, and the only nanpa you hear complained about is bad nanpa. By definition the good ones don't get discussed or seen.
Now I know for sure you were educated at the Sorbonne ( then MBA at MITI or Harvard ). This already puts you on a higher intellectual plain than everyone else here.
" prove" and " illustrate " a point are used loosely in English but in strict terms you are absolument correct.
Only an idiot would try arguing philosophy with a product from un Grand Ecole and sorry for the lack of accent acute they don't have them here
As much as I respect the views of Ww Skipper and Solong, they have a tendency to waffle or overstate which makes it harder to convince the skeptical. I often have to reread their posts to grasp their intended meaning
Not to say that my posts are any better but makes a welcome distraction from cleaning the latrines
Like feminism, PUA is a very complex subject so I'll try and keep it as simple as my grasp of English will allows. Also, I will try not to use analogique to épreuver or illustrer n e points.
Did anybody notice that contained in the above post was a very important PUA technique? It's what we call " Assumption Building " in the game
Imagine you just done your cold calling Stop ' n' Shock routine on da street, come out with a great original one liner like " Jeez you're so cute I just had to tell you in case you'd forgotten ", got the attention of the target, and struck up a conversation with a hot chick. You notice a buncha text books in her bag so you say " you're a student DEZ NE ". In the unlikely event you guess right she will assume you are a true prophet blessed with intuition and interested in her as a person rather than just a piece of ass. She will say ”よく知ってるね" or ”お前天才だ". Anything else and you're fucked if you don't understand Japanese. If you're wrong, it's still more interesting than just asking
"So what do you do then or don't you wanna tell me? "
" Non, va te faire foûtre you saddo you loser you douchebag pile a shit"
You will soon get used to rejection because you'll get rejected a lot. It's just part of a woman's bitch's shield and nothing to do with you so don't let it bother you or take it personally. Remember, rejection is her problem not yours.
Another example and one of my favorite goes like this
" So you're from the US of A then? What state? "
" No I'm from Canada? "
" Canada? How long you had that problem? "
Notice the next PUA technique in the third line which we call " negging " in the game. It's designed to subtly attack her self esteem and put you in a commanding position. The chick will find you intriguing and a challenge. You may also find out her age without asking directly. If she's under 18 then run which is why I always recommend my clients to wear a flashy but comfortable pair of sneakers.
Some PUA experts call this methodology push-pull with push being your negging and pull saying something nice to build up her confidence you just took down. This technique was used by interrogators in Vietnam but some historians trace it back as far as the Spanish Civil War where the Dead Sea scrolls were unearthed.
The gig with PUA techniques is that they are all based on psychology research conducted on mice by Richard Head and Bates, two legendary PUA therapists. If these techniques didn't work the movement wouldn't have become the widespread phenomena sorry phenomenum it is today
All I can advise right now is that you get out on da streets and start honing your PUA skills.
Japan is so great place for PUA because
1) It's new here
2) J chicks don't used to it coz it's new here
3) J chicks don't yet developed strategy to counter the power of PUA
4) ask Solong
5) ask Espanish
6) Some J girls feel bad about turning a guy down
As Moss Boss said, you might end up with blue balls but the tissue will regenerate and you won't have much use for them anyway.
Learning PUA skills is no different from reading up on management and corporate politics or how to become a female gymnast.
You don't got no excuse for failure.
I'm luvin' it!
The point I'd like to make here is that "PUA" is used in these conversations as a canon, in much the same way that something is either written in the Bible or not. If it is in the Bible, it is part of literal Christianity, if it's not (like the dead sea scrolls and apocrypha), it's not. Somehow, even with the "canon" people still understand from the beginning that Christians believe all sorts of different things, and that you might conceivably get along very well with one and not at all with another. This is NOT THE CASE when we are talking about 'PUA' where some people on this board seem to think that all PUAs are the same and that all PUA tactics are tricky and manipulative without ever actually talking about specifics. This is surface level, emotionally-laden value judgments and relates little to the reality of what we do. Even @Wwanderer who for the most part I think is legitimately trying to engage here without just throwing out vague judgments and negative qualifiers without backing them up also seems to often paint PUA in broad strokes where no such monolithic body of practitioners or material exist. There is no "PUA board" or exam, instead you have a huge variety of different people teaching and doing different things, with varying degrees of success and methods. The blatant refusal of participants in these debates to accept the plurality of ideas and schools of thought within the umbrella term of "PUA" makes it very difficult to have intelligent, nuanced debate. To be fair here, @Wwanderer mentioned the plurality at times, but then comes back with quotes like the above "PUA encourages adversarial mindset", which is patently false and only reflects a single trend or line of thinking within some, not all or even most PUA literature.
SO: I'm going to try not to even use the acronym "PUA" from here on out since it seems to be an easy target for value-based judgments of little factual substance, and instead use the much wider term 'success with women' and the much less ambiguous term 'cold approach'.
There is much in the (excellent) post above to which I would like to respond and might even be able to do so at some point (when time permits), but for now, I'd just like to point out that while you identify a very real problem in discussing PUA...the facts that the term is used to refer to many different things by different people (lots of whom seem to believe that *they* "own" its one and only true/correct meaning) and that for many people it seems to come loaded with pre-judgements (positive as well as negative), it is also true that
1 - Lots of other things have the same problem. Examples would include feminism, science, astrology, libertarianism (or socialism if you wish), Buddhism (or Christianity as you mention)...one could go on almost indefinitely. We/people routinely talk about many such things and sort of implicitly understand that whatever is being said about X, be it good or bad or indifferent, doesn't apply universally to to everything that anyone calls X but is intended to apply to somethings that are called X by many people. It would be too clumsy to always repeat those caveats in nearly every sentence in a discussion. So, if I say something like "PUA encourages an adversarial mindset", what I mean and what any reasonable reader should understand is something like "some versions of what quite a few people call PUA encourages an adversarial mindset". If someone said, "feminism encourages hostility toward males", many feminist could legitimately object that what they consider feminism, the feminism they embrace, does not; yet it might still be true that a lot of what is called feminism does encourage hostility toward males". One solution is the one you suggest; just drop use of a term that is too vague and has too many meanings to be useful. However, that quickly becomes awkward and rarely catches on.
2 - The knife cuts in both directions. If PUA is "to be an easy target for value-based judgments of little factual substance" (which I could easily believe), this makes not only its criticism vacuous/shallow but also its praise.
-Ww
2 - The knife cuts in both directions. If PUA is "to be an easy target for value-based judgments of little factual substance" (which I could easily believe), this makes not only its criticism vacuous/shallow but also its praise.
So, if I say something like "PUA encourages an adversarial mindset", what I mean and what any reasonable reader should understand is something like "some versions of what quite a few people call PUA encourages an adversarial mindset"
The PUA founding fathers Mystery, Lovedrop or Matador.
The consequences are too horrific to contemplate. There will be more PUA practitioners outside Ebisu station than punters getting trains. Turf wars between white and Hispanic, Indian and Chinese, Japanese and Haitians. The Yakuza and police will get involved and a nationwide clampdown on PUA announced. Not even the best analogique in the world will save our sorry asses, Dead Sea scrolls n all. It will be the Armageddon of stop n shock, assumption building, kino, negging and closing
This is a real question, believe it or not, and I realize that it has nothing to do with the value or nature of PUA, but why do these PUA leaders/teachers take silly pseudonyms that sound like they belong to some comic book superheroes? Or, for that matter, why do they use pseudonyms at all? To my ears it makes them sound like adolescents, but that is not my point. Why do they do it at all? Are they hiding something for some reason or do they think it sounds cool or ...?
-Ww
Why do you use a pseudonym on this site? Why does User#16452?
Mate that would be funny if it actually happened. Reminds me of something a drunk man wondered out loud to me once - whether civilizations are built and destroyed purely out of Man's sexual frustration