How To Avoid Patronizing Non-consenting Sex Workers

This is NOT intended to be a thread about the (im)morality of p4p in general. There is exactly such a thread here:

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/

In that thread a sub-thread developed about the undeniable fact that some women are coerced into sex work by horrible abuse and coercion of various sorts; some are even slaves. The main posts in that discussion include these:

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-2#post-43713
http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-3#post-43819
http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-4#post-43890
http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-4#post-43925
http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-4#post-43930
http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-4#post-43932
http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-5#post-43956
http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-6#post-44079
http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/is-p4p-immoral.9775/page-6#post-44082

A consensus (I think) that emerged from this discussion is that a monger should avoid non-consensual p4p sex if at all possible...which is both obvious (one hopes) and consistent with how most people think it right to avoid buying all sorts of products produced by exploited and/or slave labor (including child labor) to the extent possible/practical. If anyone would quarrel with that notion, I'd be quite surprised.

So, the purpose of this thread IS to discuss ways in which one might try to avoid non-consensual p4p other than by avoiding p4p altogether. In other words, it is about how mongers might want to respond to the fact that there are parts of the sex industry that involve severe mistreatment of women.

I will post some of my own ideas on this a bit later.

-Ww

To the best of my understanding, there are basically two types of measures that you can take to avoid patronizing non-consenting sex workers, those that require meeting the sex worker to make the determination and those that do not. I will discuss them in separate posts.

This post is about the latter type, those that do not require meeting the sex worker. They are based on the notion (supported by strong evidence - anecdotal, logical and statistical) that non-consenting sex workers are not equally common in all parts of the commercial sex industry and are indeed relatively rare in some parts of it. Avoid those parts of the industry, and you will avoid the large majority of the problem/immorality. This approach also has the advantage of being relatively easy and convenient but the disadvantage of being somewhat expensive.

Before finally listing my suggestions, let me add that none of these are 100% certain to be effective (what in life is) and that it is best to combine many or all of them to minimize your chances of being with a non-consenting woman.

So, here is my list:

1 - Avoid mongering in Third World countries.
2 - Avoid mongering down-market wherever you are.
3 - Avoid incall situations and, to a lesser extent, agencies. (I.e., indies are least likely to be non-consenting.)
4 - Avoid mongering with businesses that employ mostly or exclusively women from other countries, especially Third World and developing countries.
5 - Avoid mongering with unusually low profile businesses (ones only accessible by street touts, word-of-mouth reference or discreet classified ads).
6 - Avoid mongering where you don't speak the local language.
7 - Avoid mongering with businesses which appear to be dishonest with customers and/or which treat customers badly.
8 - Avoid mongering with businesses that use lurid and/or disrespectful (to women) advertising.
9 - Avoid mongering with businesses that have a high turn-over rate of sex workers.
10 - Avoid mongering with businesses which do not screen customers or do so minimally.

I can explain the reasoning behind each of these if anyone wishes, but I think most of it is pretty self-evident.

Anyway, if you have a date that is consistent with several of those guidelines, perhaps all of them, imo the chances are that you are not having sex with a non-consenting woman is very small.

-Ww

Sudsy said:

Personally, this is one of the reasons I frequent soaplands almost to the exclusion of all other services. The soaps are the cream of the P4P industry here, and they're picky employers.

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Despite violating my "guideline" #3 above, I think that upscale (Yoshiwara) soaplands (and seaplanes too, god dammit, autocorrect) are very likely to be just fine. Most of the women who work in them also have "day jobs" and are normally not present at the soapland except when they have an appointment booked in advance (or when they are called-in to see a customer who came in off the street without an appointment). They are also mostly native Japanese. They also seem to make excellent money to the limited extent I can judge. I once got to know a soapland hostess a bit "on the outside" and discovered that she drove a fancy sports car and traveled extensively around the world on holidays. Also her biggest problem in the world seemed to be that her beloved pet cat was quite old and often sick...was spending a lot of time in a vet hospital. It would be very hard to picture her being a "sex slave".

-Ww

Wwanderer said:

So, here is my list:

1 - Avoid mongering in Third World countries.
2 - Avoid mongering down-market wherever you are.
3 - Avoid incall situations and, to a lesser extent, agencies. (I.e., indies are least likely to be non-consenting.)
4 - Avoid mongering with businesses that employ mostly or exclusively women from other countries, especially Third World and developing countries.
5 - Avoid mongering with unusually low profile businesses (ones only accessible by street touts, word-of-mouth reference or discreet classified ads).
6 - Avoid mongering where you don't speak the local language.
7 - Avoid mongering with businesses which appear to be dishonest with customers and/or which treat customers badly.
8 - Avoid mongering with businesses that use lurid and/or disrespectful (to women) advertising.
9 - Avoid mongering with businesses that have a high turn-over rate of sex workers.
10 - Avoid mongering with businesses which do not screen customers or do so minimally.

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Damn! I forgot one:

11 - Avoid mongering in places where organized crime is known to be particularly active in commercial sex or in general.

If any kind and helpful sys admin (I'm sorry I called you "oppressors" in another thread! ) wants to erase this post and add point #11 to the list in the post after the OP, that would be cool.

-Ww

Tom Clumsy said:

@Wwanderer your guidelines are silly and illogical

you're merely ranting about third world countries and affordable establishments. I have a feeling you don't like Chinese and Korean esute, Thai massage with happy ending, Asian feeling, pink salons and all kinds of affordable service in Japan. And you didn't have the "online balls" to refer to them. I mean, c'mon man, this is just an online forum.

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Nah; none of it has anything to do with what I do and don't like. The numbered points in the OP are mostly just factors that make it easier for perps to get away with forcing women to be sex workers and/or are indications of illegal activities in general being common.

Also, I think you're insinuating that upscale escorts are the only way you can avoid "non-consenting sws"

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Nope, definitely not the only way nor a sure way. In fact I'm going to post about another approach to avoiding non-consenting SWs that is basically unrelated to those I list above.

if you disagree to that last statement, I challenge you to name ten specific establishments that fit your criteria.

I'll be waiting

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I don't even understand the question; you want ten p4p options that you should or should not avoid according to the listed criteria? In either case, no thanks. I leave applying the criteria as an exercise for the reader (if he is so inclined).

-Ww

User#8628 said:

I'd say check if she looks uncomfortable or scared or has any bruises but even that doesn't say anything

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Exactly. Looking for indications of unwillingness and/or of coercion and abuse are prime example of a measure of the second type I mentioned , ones that you can only employ after meeting the sex worker. Imo, any substantial such evidence is a good enough reason to take a pass if a monger wants to err on the side of caution.

-Ww

User#8628 said:

i've gotten bruises from other things then violence on many occassions..

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With skin like yours, I suppose a brisk wind could give you bruises! It is so flawless, glowing, pale, sensitive and soft with a texture and taste that is just...uh...mmm. Oops! I think I lost my train of thought there fore some reason. What were we talking about again?

-Ww

Randy Jinx said:

WW, Good list. Glad that this topic is being broached with some intelligence and depth. As someone who has seen a myriad of establishments and their 'advertising' here and abroad, I can say that for the most part, establishments seem to be legit here. I always try to chat with the girls I'm with and they seem to do it for the money or pleasure, of their own free will.

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Thanks! My experience is similar to yours (although most of it not recent), and my impressions of p4p in Japan are the same. Compared to other places I think non-consensual p4p is *relatively* rare in Japan. It is one reason I prefer the mongering environment here to that in many other countries despite the fact that it is on the expensive side and often hard to access for gaijin mongers.

-Ww

User#8628 said:

Yes, i always have random bruises, especially around my knees... Hmmm i wonder why...

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Just like @User#16452 I bet...tripping over all those guys who throw themselves at your feet!

-Ww

DJV said:

I agree with all OP's rules, except in some cases I would replace "avoid" with "think twice and cross-check".

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I should clarify. Despite my wording I did not intend the guidelines/suggestions I listed in my second post of the thread (or #11 posted later) as ironclad rules that every monger should always follow or anything close to being that prescriptive. Indeed, I have violated most or all of them myself more than once. Rather I meant something like, "In order to reduce the chance of patronizing a non-consenting sex-worker, *avoid* ..."

Imo it is best to pay attention to as many of these factors as is practical in a given situation and for you personal circumstances, financial and otherwise. Moreover, when you violate them, you should take particular care to use the second type of techniques after you meet her, i.e., seeing if there are any indications physical or otherwise that she is not doing the work willingly.

In the end, as with most things in life, there is no perfect formula; you have to use your own best judgment...as you are doing with the touring Russian escorts you mention I guess.

-Ww

jacqueh said:

The simplest would be to stick to porn stars and active forum users.

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This would make it less likely that the woman is being forced into sex work, but it also is not a perfect system, as @User#8628 points out:

User#8628 said:

Japanese or women from rich western countries are not likely to be forced by mafia but there is a chance they could be forced by a bad boyfriend. Take Linda Lovelace's story for example.

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More on this later, I think.

-Ww