Is P4p Immoral?

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That is actually the easiest part in mnay ways; keeping a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term (let's call that a decade or more) is MUCH MUCH harder and failure to do so is far more common than failure to ever start relationships with women.

In other words, it still seems to me that PUA techniques are an overkill solution to a relatively minor (short-lived) challenge for most men. This is probably the reason it has remained a fringe "movement" attracting a fairly small number of adherents for decades now.

Part of the difference in our perspective may well also come from our describint the same situation differently. For example, most people probably would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, but that does not mean that their lives are unhappy or ruined just because things could have been better. You can say similar things about many other aspects of life, say, money. Most people would also perfer to make more money and for less hard work than they actually do, but again that does not imply that their financial and professional situations have caused them to have an unhappy or unsuccessful life. Very very few people's lives are so good in any way at all that they could not posssibly be better; in that sense we nearly all "settle" in almost every possible realm of life. You can call those glasses/lives half full (my perspective) or half empty (perhaps yours?).

-Ww

Maybe the reason its much harder to keep a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term is because most guys don't actually really know what they like because they've only slept with ten women (on average for a lifetime, for Gen X. Less for the millennials)? Especially if you exclude P4P (which isn't really a woman you "attracted"), most guys don't have a lot of sexual partners. If you're choosing from ten women (or less in many cases!), you don't really have any clue if you've made the right choice.. I only started to really truly realize what I wanted with women after sleeping with and dating hundreds.. and I'm still not 100% sure, but if I had married one of those first ten impulsively, I would most likely have a very hard time staying long-term with them. I cant even imagine dating a lot of my earlier girlfriends now - for many reasons. I don't regret anything, but it's easy not to know what you want if you don't have much choice.

Pickup is as big or as little of a deal as you want to make it. It ranges from just chatting to girls next to you in line at the conbini to going hardcore and spending hours and hours on the streets and in clubs and bars. Not everybody wants to do that, and that's fine. But to think of it as something that you have to either do totally and completely or not at all seems a bit of a false dichotomy to me. I guess my main source of confusion is why people would not want to talk to women wherever they are? If you don't want to carve out large blocks of time in your day to do it, I can understand that. But why not lean over and talk to the girl sitting next to you on the bus, or who is buying a cupcake when you pass her and notice something interesting about her? Just seems kinda crazy and self-restrictive to never talk to strangers.

The guys who are actually happy with the quality of girls they're able to date in my experience are a small minority. The guys who are satisfied with what they got are a much broader range, including the happy guys, but all the way down through to the guys resigned to living in comfortable mediocrity. These guys are the majority. They're the ones with an average life, average girlfriend, nothing especially wrong with settling, but meanwhile they're sharing giant bubble butt Latina pics between them over WhatsApp, fantasising about slapping that jelly instead of going out and getting it for real. Like you say, some guys would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, and yet for various reasons haven't put the effort in. Does it affect their happiness? Its easier to be satisfied with what you got for sure, maybe even they're happier not trying, not knowing. Glass half-full as you call it. But man, I could never live like that. Rather fail than just not try.

Couldn't have said it better..
 
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Maybe the reason its much harder to keep a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term is because most guys don't actually really know what they like because they've only slept with ten women (on average for a lifetime, for Gen X. Less for the millennials)? Especially if you exclude P4P (which isn't really a woman you "attracted"), most guys don't have a lot of sexual partners. If you're choosing from ten women (or less in many cases!), you don't really have any clue if you've made the right choice.. I only started to really truly realize what I wanted with women after sleeping with and dating hundreds.. and I'm still not 100% sure, but if I had married one of those first ten impulsively, I would most likely have a very hard time staying long-term with them. I cant even imagine dating a lot of my earlier girlfriends now - for many reasons. I don't regret anything, but it's easy not to know what you want if you don't have much choice.

Pickup is as big or as little of a deal as you want to make it. It ranges from just chatting to girls next to you in line at the conbini to going hardcore and spending hours and hours on the streets and in clubs and bars. Not everybody wants to do that, and that's fine. But to think of it as something that you have to either do totally and completely or not at all seems a bit of a false dichotomy to me. I guess my main source of confusion is why people would not want to talk to women wherever they are? If you don't want to carve out large blocks of time in your day to do it, I can understand that. But why not lean over and talk to the girl sitting next to you on the bus, or who is buying a cupcake when you pass her and notice something interesting about her? Just seems kinda crazy and self-restrictive to never talk to strangers.



Couldn't have said it better..

The question is if there is a scientific correlation between the number of sex partners and happiness.

The first link on google is this one http://bigthink.com/dollars-and-sex/does-sleeping-around-make-people-happier
It is based on this research paper "Money, Sex and Happiness: An Empirical Study” http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/ajoswald/finalsentscanjsex04.pdf

Some quotes from the research paper:
"The happiness-maximizing number of sexual partners in the previous year is calculated to be 1."
"people who say they have ever paid for sex are considerably less happy than others."

It seems both P4P and PUA are bad :rolleyes:
 
Maybe the reason its much harder to keep a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term is because most guys don't actually really know what they like because they've only slept with ten women (on average for a lifetime, for Gen X. Less for the millennials)? Especially if you exclude P4P (which isn't really a woman you "attracted"), most guys don't have a lot of sexual partners. If you're choosing from ten women (or less in many cases!), you don't really have any clue if you've made the right choice..

LOL! Nope; that's not it at all! Or very rarely in any case.

The problems which cause long term couples to break up or be unhappy with their relationships are not primarily sexual incompatibility or dissatisfaction at all...well less than 10% of the time according to multiple sources I found in a few minutes of googling as well as my overwhelming anecdotal impression/experience. Of course, problems arising in other areas of a relationship often cause problems in the couple's sex life...or simply end it, but those are not the root causes. Typically problems arise due to control issues ("power struggles"), conflicting life goals, disagreements on financial decisions, poor communications (usually cited as the #1 reason), incompatible approaches to child rearing, dealing with in-laws, bad/unpleasant habits of one or both partners, physical or emotional abusiveness, low self esteem issues, infidelities, growing apart (people change naturally and deeply over periods of years and decades) and so forth.

In fact, my guess is that the truth is just the opposite of what you suggest. I don't know of any evidence, but it seems plausible and very likely to me that a lot of PUA (or p4p) activity when one is young actually makes long term relationships less likely to be successful for multiple reasons. One of them is that sex is a "lower brain" driven activity/motivation and is thus *very* subject to forming set patterns that are difficult or impossible to change later in life. This is the origin of fetishes; one or a few early sexual experiences that somehow involve a specific stimulus (e.g., women's feet) become a life long necessity for sexual stimulation. Thus, someone who has a constant stream of different and short-term sexual partners when young may well have difficulty ever giving up that pattern of sexuality. Another is that if a person is confident that they can easily find a new partner, it reduces their motivations to solve problems in an ongoing relationship.

-Ww
 
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LOL! Nope; that's not it at all! Or very rarely in any case.

The problems which cause long term couples to break up or be unhappy with their relationships are not primarily sexual incompatibility

Well that was a pretty wild misunderstanding! Where did you imagine I was talking about sexual incompatibility from?

Another is that if a person is confident that they can easily find a new partner, it reduces their motivations to solve problems in an ongoing relationship.

My impression is that you value monogamy highly. Except... I thought you weren't married?

I personally am not sure I will get married. So probably best not to assume everybody IS searching for one life partner or that this is the natural ideal
 
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I personally am not sure I will get married. So probably best not to assume everybody IS searching for one life partner or that this is the natural ideal

I wonder if Berzerk-PUA has changed you up to a point you can't commit to a main relationship ?
While having numerous increasingly satisfying relationships, you distance yourself from a different level only possible with a life partner.

I feel it's the same as in sports : would you say it's better to practice multiple ones, or commit to a single one ? It seems most high level athletes have a much stronger dedication on only one sport, and it's doing them some good. They also don't need to have practiced hundreds before to find satisfaction.
OK, I know athletes have some side sports that help them complete their skills, entertain them, etc., only to be better at their main sport (or switch later).
Maybe PUA is the Decathlete of romance.

Also, with whom will you have kids as a PUA ? Not saying the relationship with the/a mother of your children can't start with a pick-up, but how will it go on the long term ? Do you shutdown PUA for a while ? Or similarly would you rather take care of hundreds of kids (like as a teacher) than having a few special ones ?
 
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The question is if there is a scientific correlation between the number of sex partners and happiness.

The first link on google is this one http://bigthink.com/dollars-and-sex/does-sleeping-around-make-people-happier
It is based on this research paper "Money, Sex and Happiness: An Empirical Study” http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/ajoswald/finalsentscanjsex04.pdf

Some quotes from the research paper:
"The happiness-maximizing number of sexual partners in the previous year is calculated to be 1."
"people who say they have ever paid for sex are considerably less happy than others."

It seems both P4P and PUA are bad :rolleyes:

I think different things work for different people.
I personally really get a happy kick from having sex (chemical reactions in brain) and p4p activities are usually a big turn on for me, the money really ads another demension.
 
Well that was a pretty wild misunderstanding! Where did you imagine I was talking about sexual incompatibility from?

Uhhhh...it was because you wrote this:

Maybe the reason its much harder to keep a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term is because most guys don't actually really know what they like because they've only slept with ten women (on average for a lifetime, for Gen X. Less for the millennials)? Especially if you exclude P4P (which isn't really a woman you "attracted"), most guys don't have a lot of sexual partners. If you're choosing from ten women (or less in many cases!), you don't really have any clue if you've made the right choice..

Your comment referred *only* to the sexual part of relationships and to experience with women only in terms of having slept with them. So, I got the "pretty wild" impression that you were thinking about sex. :rolleyes: Basically you said that a guy needs to sleep with many more than 10 women to know what he "really" likes. Was I jumping to conclusions to imagine that you meant you meant what he really likes in terms of sex with women? I mean does sleeping with women help you decide what sort of woman you'd like in terms of making financial decisions or rearing children or dealing with in-laws or...

My impression is that you value monogamy highly. Except... I thought you weren't married?

And speaking of "wild misunderstanding", I have no idea where you got the impression that I'm not married. I am, very married and for not that much less than 50 years. And even stranger is the idea that I value monogamy highly; I have never practiced it in my life...or at least not for more than a few months at a time.

I am always a bit puzzled when these discussions veer into considering our individual personal lives, as though they were somehow relevant to the general issues we are debating, but since you have raised such questions about me, perhaps I could in turn ask you how long your longest continuous relationship to date lasted and what's the longest period you have ever lived with a woman continuously?

I personally am not sure I will get married. So probably best not to assume everybody IS searching for one life partner or that this is the natural ideal

Obviously some people are not, but most people are. However, it matters little either way since that wasn't what brought this topic up. Rather it was my claim that the hard/challenging parts of relationships are not meeting and initial seduction but are actually all of the many complex issues that arise in long term relationships, when a couple tries to make a life together. People that don't want or have long term partners (which is not necessarily the same as "one life partner" btw) obviously don't have to face those other issues. People who don't have children don't have to deal with the challenges of raising children as well, but it doesn't make those challenges any easier for those who have them.

-Ww
 
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I wonder if Berzerk-PUA has changed you up to a point you can't commit to a main relationship ?
While having numerous increasingly satisfying relationships, you distance yourself from a different level only possible with a life partner.

I feel it's the same as in sports : would you say it's better to practice multiple ones, or commit to a single one ? It seems most high level athletes have a much stronger dedication on only one sport, and it's doing them some good. They also don't need to have practiced hundreds before to find satisfaction.
OK, I know athletes have some side sports that help them complete their skills, entertain them, etc., only to be better at their main sport (or switch later).
Maybe PUA is the Decathlete of romance.

Also, with whom will you have kids as a PUA ? Not saying the relationship with the/a mother of your children can't start with a pick-up, but how will it go on the long term ? Do you shutdown PUA for a while ? Or similarly would you rather take care of hundreds of kids (like as a teacher) than having a few special ones ?

These are very good questions indeed, ones I don't necessarily have all the answers to. I'm open to having a committed, long-term relationship in order to raise kids, but I know that's not now for me. As for your sports analogy, I think that "love" is all the same sport, and with falling in love or at least trying it out with a bunch of people you get a better idea of who you like.

As for kids, its a pretty personal question.. I love kids and would love some some day. I've had girls (after I tell them I'm not ready for marriage and kids yet) just tell me to impregnate them and I don't have to worry about the kid at all - they just really wanted kids. I thought about it, but it really doesn't sit well with me and I don't think it's really fair to the kid or the mom. This was actually the reason I broke up with my girlfriend of three years (which, to answer @Wwanderer is tied for my longest relationship) - it was in some ways against her will. She very much wanted to keep on dating - even if I slept with other girls, but I sensed that she really wanted someone who would seriously commit to her, so despite her protests I decided to cut it off and set her free to find someone who would do that for her.

I think that love is not about possession but about creation and unity, and in that sense the modern ideal of love which is the foundation of monogamous relationships is a bit messed up, which is basically one of the points I was trying to get at. If people can do it and enjoy it, I support it, but I don't think its necessarily the end-point of the "love" axis in your life. In other words, I don't believe that when you get married, you have succeeded in your love life and you are on the highest plane of existence. A marriage could be right or wrong for a ton of different reasons.

Your comment referred *only* to the sexual part of relationships and to experience with women only in terms of having slept with them. So, I got the "pretty wild" impression that you were thinking about sex. :rolleyes: Basically you said that a guy needs to sleep with many more than 10 women to know what he "really" likes. Was I jumping to conclusions to imagine that you meant you meant what he really likes in terms of sex with women? I mean does sleeping with women help you decide what sort of woman you'd like in terms of making financial decisions or rearing children or dealing with in-laws or...

My point was that generally, people choose from their sex partners who they would like to continue their relationship with. In other words, sex is kind of a funnel point after which you decide longer-term. If your funnel only lets through ten women, that's not a very large sample size from which to ensure you've made the best decision for life. So actually, I meant nothing about the act of sex itself, but rather the fact that it serves as a pool from which we choose. On top of that, if we only have had sex with 10 women (again these are just averages, some guys are more some are less), how are we to know if it is really the woman we love, or just the fact that we are finally getting laid? Sex, after all, is powerfully wired in the brain, and evolution has conditioned us to place high value on having it and continuing to have it.

What I'm getting at here is that I (personally) think that men and women both should experiment a lot, have sex with a bunch of people and a wide variety of them. You should date starving artists and CEOs, models and janitors, stylists and accountants, flight attendants and fighters. Learn what you value and don't value in a partner. And when you know for sure, then maybe, if you like, get settled down! The mistake I think is when people get married to one of the first people they date.

In many ways it's similar to travel. People run through "tunnels" their whole life and everything is planned out and expected by society. Go to school, K-12, go to college/University, get an internship, join a company, work until about 40 or 50 and then realize your youth is gone and you've traveled half as much as you'd have liked (if that) and that the whole time you were working for somebody else in exchange for money which gets you what? You can live, yes, and provide for whoever you want, but is that happiness? Traveling and trying your hand at many different things is valuable, at least to me. I don't deny that having a stable career that you progress in is also valuable - my point is that there is a period before you commit too hard to things where it's nice to play around and explore the options. It's much easier before you commit then after you commit, and I hear story after story of people who commit (either in marriage or in career) and have massive regrets later on about not trying more things when they were younger.

FWIW, it sounds like a lot of guys on this forum have had a wealth of experience, and I think that's the right way to do it. For me in my life, I'm much more interested in experiences than in things, so whatever lifestyle and choices open me up to the broadest range of experiences (and that of course includes women), count me in. Going back to @DJV 's question, I'm not going to be running around on the streets forever - nor do I think anyone needs to do this. But, I think pickup is a skill that if you put just a year or two into it like a hobby (or longer if you do it more casually), it will give you dividends your whole life and you won't have to worry about attracting the level of women you'd like for the rest of your life. Once you get your dating life sorted so that it's very "wealthy" with women you really dig, you don't have to worry about it anymore and can focus on other things. But if you skip this step, I think you're always going to wonder what it would be like to date the girls every guy looks at walking down the street. If and when I'm ready to have kids I'd like to know exactly what kind of woman I want it to be (physically, mentally, spiritually), be able to find her, attract her, and keep her.

I am always a bit puzzled when these discussions veer into considering our individual personal lives, as though they were somehow relevant to the general issues we are debating, but since you have raised such questions about me, perhaps I could in turn ask you how long your longest continuous relationship to date lasted and what's the longest period you have ever lived with a woman continuously?

I think personal lives heavily inform our values and opinions so I think they're always relevant. I just dropped a ton of very personal opinions up here. I think it helps people understand where we are all coming from.

As for my longest relationship, I answered it above. As for cohabilitation.. I have avoided living with women my whole life because I lived with too many in my childhood! I'm not interested in living with a woman long-term right now as it would massively cramp my style, but I can respect how taxing and difficult it can be. I once "saved" a Taiwanese princess from her abusive ex (long story) and her prized rabbit and dog lived in my apartment for about 5 months and it was dreadful and I never fully got the rabbit poop out of my closet. Some poor real estate agent got an unpleasant surprise when I moved out. For the record, I'm not claiming to be an expert in living with women or having very long relationships! Once you get past the one-year mark, you can ignore anything I say if you like ^^
 
My point was that generally, people choose from their sex partners who they would like to continue their relationship with. In other words, sex is kind of a funnel point after which you decide longer-term. If your funnel only lets through ten women, that's not a very large sample size from which to ensure you've made the best decision for life. So actually, I meant nothing about the act of sex itself, but rather the fact that it serves as a pool from which we choose. On top of that, if we only have had sex with 10 women (again these are just averages, some guys are more some are less), how are we to know if it is really the woman we love, or just the fact that we are finally getting laid? Sex, after all, is powerfully wired in the brain, and evolution has conditioned us to place high value on having it and continuing to have it.

Thank you for your answers and your time writing it, it's really nice to get a glimpse of your working this out, and I think it makes sense altogether.

What I'm not sure is your sentence above : while I think it's common to find/select long-term(s) partner(s) in the pool of one's sex partners, it might not be as general and obvious than that.
A huge number of people start a romance, and it takes tremendous time and build-up, you kiss each other at the n-th date or interaction, and at the point you have sex with this person you're already in a long term relationship.
So it's not that some people don't have too much choice because of their lack of experience and partners, it's because they have a different way to start and build a relationship, and it's much more time-consuming and (supposedly) exclusive. Pretty much contradictory with PUA, because it relies on things going slowly....even as slow as they can.
To continue on sports analogies, talk about spints vs marathons.
There's still hope for these people who engaged their relationships this way : they can find afterwards other partners and access to this wide diversity you talk about, without too much pressure on the results. They just find themselves in a situation/lifestyle that lots of people call immoral..
 
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Part of p4p for some people such as myself is also about the exploration. I knew I was never going to find a long term relationship through p4p so I thought I could use it for my own personal benefit. Ask for advice with relationships themselves with Japanese girls. Request (and pay) for certain services such as swallowing and facials. Seeing girls cosplay in the school uniform and stripping them down pretending like I'm a sick man with a lolita complex hah hah. Improve my technique. Get it on with some porn stars like Emiri Yoshikawa, Izawa Miharu, Megumi Kei, and Nanao Madoka. Find a comfort zone, etc. p4p allows certain freedoms you might not get from certain relationships so I figure I get those out of the way if I find a girlfriend who won't let me do some of those things. And I got most thrills I could ask for and have my "raw justice" with some of these girls (in reference to a shitty Pamela Anderson movie where her sex scene in an alley alone was worth watching as a pre-teen in the 1990s).

I'm not exactly what you called "burned out." I had more than my share of fun through p4p and I am using what I learned from those experiences with my present and forever girlfriend. She enjoys the sex I give her and always wants more. I love it when she tells me the sight of my erection turns her on. I also love how wet her pussy gets. She has an excellent figure, with slightly bigger than average breasts (an e cup) with a very cute face she lets me cum on. And she has a great ass that's perfect for doggy style and that gets her fired up. Thankfully Izawa Miharu (or Umi at pururngang) gave me the confidence and praise in my technique with that.

She will be 31 next month (and I will be 32 in June) and you could swear she's still 20. We have an excellent relationship so far and we have found ways of openly communicating to one another to avoid any problems, issues or arguments and we have shared nothing but the best of success. Everything I get with her you can never get with the best of GFE through p4p. The experience with a real girlfriend is a whole new level of satisfaction. All of the sex we had together has always been unprotected and I love the feeling of cumming inside a woman and how she tells me she loves it when my cock pulses inside of her with every shot and how warm my cum is. You don't get that in p4p (nor is it encouraged). But with a real girlfriend, it is a whole new level of thrills. If she gets pregnant, we don't mind. In fact, we already talked about having children and if or when it happens, we accept that and are willing to start a family whether it was planned or not. We are responsible adults who knew what we are doing. So when it happens, we will be more than ready. In fact, I plan on proposing to her on her birthday and already bought an engagement ring.

Has p4p changed my perceptions and expectations of sex? Yes, it has but not in a negative way as some people would suggest. I knew it could have gone that way so I just did all I could to direct my experiences in a more positive and developmental manner and it paid off. As I stated, it gave me confidence and comfort. Being in the presence of some porn stars and how they praised me and enjoyed my company played a part in it. Granted getting repeat customers is a part of the job but these women do have the freedom of choice to refuse customers on the spot or for future service so the fact I could repeat with some of them and eventually ask for their advice on communicating with women has been a tremendous benefit. Kurumi and Izawa Miharu made me feel secure with myself. I may have blew a lot of money in my 20s on p4p but p4p in Japan is something you can't get anywhere else. If I could do it again and not change a thing, I would! So get it while you're young and while it's hot. Or if you're an older timer and still enjoy it, as Doc Brown would say, what the hell. People enjoy it and do it for many reasons. To me, it was the most therapeutic experience in my life after my failures in relationships and when I did not have any confidence in myself.

I'm in a situation in my life I want to make work and p4p no longer has a part in it. I had my time and overall it was epic. It's time for the next phase of my life to begin and whatever I did in p4p, I will take it to the grave and if there is a whole new plane of existence, that is between me and the whoever is in charge.
 
You gotta be running with an elite crowd or something mate, or yeah a generation gap thing cuz it's just not what I see out there. It's a toughie though, you describe satisfaction and happiness as the same or similar things, but I don't see it that way. In that case you're right about our difference in perspective, which I appreciate you explaining yours.

The guys who are actually happy with the quality of girls they're able to date in my experience are a small minority. The guys who are satisfied with what they got are a much broader range, including the happy guys, but all the way down through to the guys resigned to living in comfortable mediocrity. These guys are the majority. They're the ones with an average life, average girlfriend, nothing especially wrong with settling, but meanwhile they're sharing giant bubble butt Latina pics between them over WhatsApp, fantasising about slapping that jelly instead of going out and getting it for real. Like you say, some guys would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, and yet for various reasons haven't put the effort in. Does it affect their happiness? Its easier to be satisfied with what you got for sure, maybe even they're happier not trying, not knowing. Glass half-full as you call it. But man, I could never live like that. Rather fail than just not try.

Yo, I get it though, it's not the mentality of the average person. Call it glass half-empty if you like, I just call it exploring the limits of my potential. Win or lose, for me it's a catalyst to a life truly glass-full.

Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful reply. After reading it, I don't think we are actually very far apart on all these issues of "happiness" vs "settling" and "comfortable mediocrity" and "mentality of the average person" etc. It is much the way I see it too. Note, of course, that there *must* be a lot of people near and below average in any reasonable distribution.

What most PUAs and many in the p4p community seem to misunderstand or forget is that most people simply aren't that strongly motivated by sex as long as they are getting their basic needs met regularly.

A horny young person who does not yet/currently have a regular and dependable partner may well devote huge resources and effort to getting laid as may someone who (like most of us on TAG) is obsessed with sex. But a typical middle aged man living with an SO and having a regular sex-life with her may well be more motivated by his enjoyment of golf or his career or his kids etc. By this I mean that he may well put more time, energy, effort, money and resources in general into them and may derive greater pleasure from them. He will enjoy looking at (in real life or in images) super-hot younger women, may even fantasize about them a lot, talk about them to other guys and would be delighted to have one (or more) if they were easily available to him, but it is not enough of a motivation to make him do anything much about it. A lot of mongers are like this, btw; they occasionally (maybe one or a few times per year) see an escort to fulfill some fantasy about a partner's body or to do activities that aren't acceptable to his partner, but it is not a major part of his sex life or life in general.

Again, it is not so different with money. Most people are not that motivated to really put huge effort into earning more as long as they have enough income to meet their basic needs and their family's. They'd be glad to have it if they could get it easily, but they aren't going to bend their lives seriously to try to get it. They settle and maybe buy a lottery ticket occasionally and fantasize about what they would do if they won. (If I win the current US$1.5 billion Powerball lottery, there are going to be a bunch of VERY HAPPY SBs and escorts in Tokyo!)

-Ww
 
My point was that generally, people choose from their sex partners who they would like to continue their relationship with. In other words, sex is kind of a funnel point after which you decide longer-term. If your funnel only lets through ten women, that's not a very large sample size from which to ensure you've made the best decision for life. So actually, I meant nothing about the act of sex itself, but rather the fact that it serves as a pool from which we choose.

Well...thanks for explaining. I would have never guessed that is what you meant!

The reason it wasn't clear to me and probably wouldn't have been to most people (imo) has already been identified by @DJV in his post above, and it points to how deeply influenced by the "cold" PUA/gaming perspective on relationships you are...for good or ill. In other words, most relationships and most sex and most "selection" of long term partners that happens in the world is NOT based on cold pick-ups, nor do they *start* with sex. What we have been calling warm or social circle pick-ups are how most people get started, and in those circumstances people don't even start going out or spending large amounts of social time with each other in modes other than dating, much less having sex, until after they have a substantial impression of the other person. In other words, most people are finding potential long-term partners in the reverse order from you or what you had in mind in your post. Their "funnel point" is not sex partners but social acquaintenances and friends.

You have mentioned, if I recall correctly, that you rarely take a woman out for a thrid date if there was no sex during the first two. I am not criticizing that practice for you, but it would be extremely unwise for most people imo and would produce a lot fewer successful/stable/happy long term relationships. If you talk to couples who have been together for decades about how they met, you will very often hear that they knew each other for quite a long time, often years, before they "got interested in each other" or "started dating". It is as common as dirt and probably the most common way people meet their long term mates.

What I'm getting at here is that I (personally) think that men and women both should experiment a lot, have sex with a bunch of people and a wide variety of them. You should date starving artists and CEOs, models and janitors, stylists and accountants, flight attendants and fighters. Learn what you value and don't value in a partner. And when you know for sure, then maybe, if you like, get settled down! The mistake I think is when people get married to one of the first people they date.

In many ways it's similar to travel. People run through "tunnels" their whole life and everything is planned out and expected by society. Go to school, K-12, go to college/University, get an internship, join a company, work until about 40 or 50 and then realize your youth is gone and you've traveled half as much as you'd have liked (if that) and that the whole time you were working for somebody else in exchange for money which gets you what? You can live, yes, and provide for whoever you want, but is that happiness? Traveling and trying your hand at many different things is valuable, at least to me. I don't deny that having a stable career that you progress in is also valuable - my point is that there is a period before you commit too hard to things where it's nice to play around and explore the options. It's much easier before you commit then after you commit, and I hear story after story of people who commit (either in marriage or in career) and have massive regrets later on about not trying more things when they were younger.

Fwiiw, I couldn't possibly agree more with what you say in the above quote, and I have tried to live my life very much along the lines you suggest and with a lot of satisfying successes imo. (Although I would have said "get to know a bunch..." instead of "have sex with a bunch...".) I wouldn't change it for the world. However, I also know that this is not how most people want to make their life-choices and probably shouldn't be. To people who seek such broad and "free" lives, it is hard to understand how anyone could prefer the "tunnels"; it often seems incomprehensible to me too, but I can tell you from experience that it makes it much easier to deal with the world when you understand that the tunnels exist because most/many people want/need them.

As for cohabilitation.. I have avoided living with women my whole life because I lived with too many in my childhood! I'm not interested in living with a woman long-term right now as it would massively cramp my style, but I can respect how taxing and difficult it can be.

I do NOT mean this to sound patronizing, disrespectful or critical (it sounds like you may well be doing the right thing for you), but in all honesty, until you have lived with a mate/partner day-to-day for substantial periods of time (at least many months but really more like years or longer), you have only just dipped your toes (well, maybe one whole foot) in the ocean that is the reality of relationships between men and women. This is why I mentioned that PUA/gaming seems to me to put far too much emphasis on the very first (and relatively easy) steps toward finding the sort of sexual/romantic lives most people seek. I increasingly think that however good it might be for a few guys, maybe even a significant sized minority, it probably isn't necessary or even wise for the majority of men.

-Ww
 
So it's not that some people don't have too much choice because of their lack of experience and partners, it's because they have a different way to start and build a relationship, and it's much more time-consuming and (supposedly) exclusive. Pretty much contradictory with PUA, because it relies on things going slowly....even as slow as they can.

Sure.. thats great! ......IF people in your social circle are attractive and attracted to you, and IF you don't mind ONLY choosing from your social circle.

most people are finding potential long-term partners in the reverse order from you or what you had in mind in your post. Their "funnel point" is not sex partners but social acquaintenances and friends.

I see what you're saying (and I knew as I typed the last post that this was the obvious counterpoint that would come up). But I see a lot of guys who turn to game because they

1. Have no social circle because they are in Japan / somewhere not their home town
2. Their social circle doesn't provide enough attractive women for them to choose a decent partner
3. They aren't able to start relationships with the women in their social circle they like, or they get turned down (a la "friend zone")
4. You can't really "rack up numbers" in a social circle unless you're very good at being discreet and managing expectations or you have many separate circles. And many men want to "spread their oats" more than possible there.
5. Once they have one relationship in a social circle it can poison the circle or make it difficult to have another, you may be stepping on someone's toes, or the girl may start rumors or interfere when you turn to another girl in the social circle

In addition to those points, the notable fact you seem to be excluding is that game works wonders on warm approaches / people you already know. What attracts women you don't know attracts women you do and are comfortable with tenfold. It's like sharpening a blade so it can cut a tough cut of frozen beef, then turning and cutting a warm pad of butter. Believe it or not, some guys get into game to spice things up with their wives/partners - to great effect. Once again, there's a reason in my definitions I separated cold approach (a practice of approaching strangers) from game (talking to women with intention) from PUA/gamer (practitioner, student of the game). Getting good at cold approach is merely one aspect of learning game. The gamer, rather than the robotic master of a superficial skillset useful only for one specific situation (cold approach), is instead a social chameleon, aware of conversation patterns and how to pursue his own desires and help others achieve theirs as well - whether that person is a total stranger or a group of best friends.

You have mentioned, if I recall correctly, that you rarely take a woman out for a thrid date if there was no sex during the first two. I am not criticizing that practice for you, but it would be extremely unwise for most people imo and would produce a lot fewer successful/stable/happy long term relationships. If you talk to couples who have been together for decades about how they met, you will very often hear that they knew each other for quite a long time, often years, before they "got interested in each other" or "started dating". It is as common as dirt and probably the most common way people meet their long term mates.

If I was unable to adapt, a horrible gamer I would be! I am not some cold-approach robot with no friends or social circle. I, too, have social circle, and I dip into it for hookups or girlfriends (rarely and with tact, and only if I'm very sure the girl is worth it). I am familiar with both ways of meeting women and starting relationships and I don't really see them as oppositional as you seem to be making them out to be.

PUA/gaming seems to me to put far too much emphasis on the very first (and relatively easy) steps toward finding the sort of sexual/romantic lives most people seek

If its easy for you, lucky you are! But I wouldn't assume every guy has such an easy time finding sexual partners! I hear it all the time from guys who can't really get laid here. Even those that do - just walk around Tokyo. It's easy to see nearly every foreign man-Japanese woman couple walking hand in hand is horribly unbalanced. Even tall, good-looking guys are walking around with dumpy usui-faced trolls and busted older women. I've seen foreigners with actually attractive Japanese women a minute percentage of times.. I remember once I saw a guy with an actually attractive Japanese woman and I was so shocked I went up and had a chat with the guy! He was a cool dude (with great Japanese - no surprise there)! But the reality of the situation here - most male foreigners I see (and I'm out on the streets a TON as you know) are punching well below their weight. By comparison our female foreigner counterparts are doing quite well for themselves!
 
Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful reply. After reading it, I don't think we are actually very far apart on all these issues of "happiness" vs "settling" and "comfortable mediocrity" and "mentality of the average person" etc. It is much the way I see it too. Note, of course, that there *must* be a lot of people near and below average in any reasonable distribution.

What most PUAs and many in the p4p community seem to misunderstand or forget is that most people simply aren't that strongly motivated by sex as long as they are getting their basic needs met regularly.

A horny young person who does not yet/currently have a regular and dependable partner may well devote huge resources and effort to getting laid as may someone who (like most of us on TAG) is obsessed with sex. But a typical middle aged man living with an SO and having a regular sex-life with her may well be more motivated by his enjoyment of golf or his career or his kids etc. By this I mean that he may well put more time, energy, effort, money and resources in general into them and may derive greater pleasure from them. He will enjoy looking at (in real life or in images) super-hot younger women, may even fantasize about them a lot, talk about them to other guys and would be delighted to have one (or more) if they were easily available to him, but it is not enough of a motivation to make him do anything much about it. A lot of mongers are like this, btw; they occasionally (maybe one or a few times per year) see an escort to fulfill some fantasy about a partner's body or to do activities that aren't acceptable to his partner, but it is not a major part of his sex life or life in general.

Again, it is not so different with money. Most people are not that motivated to really put huge effort into earning more as long as they have enough income to meet their basic needs and their family's. They'd be glad to have it if they could get it easily, but they aren't going to bend their lives seriously to try to get it. They settle and maybe buy a lottery ticket occasionally and fantasize about what they would do if they won. (If I win the current US$1.5 billion Powerball lottery, there are going to be a bunch of VERY HAPPY SBs and escorts in Tokyo!)

-Ww
Yeah man that's cool. It just comes down to being honest with yourself about why you do what you do, and being able to live with that answer, cuz I reckon a lot of people bullshit and short-change the one person they should treat the best and respect the most: themselves.
Nothing wrong with the guy who's got the basic girlfriend with the vanilla sex, the office job, the 4-door saloon and meatloaf on Tuesdays. As long as he's being honest with himself when he says this is what he wants, not what he's settling for cuz he's scared or lazy or whatever. Or, even if hes honest about being scared or not being motivated enough to seek out what he wants, is he really okay with that.
 
Sure.. thats great! ......IF people in your social circle are attractive and attracted to you, and IF you don't mind ONLY choosing from your social circle.

I see what you're saying (and I knew as I typed the last post that this was the obvious counterpoint that would come up). But I see a lot of guys who turn to game because they...

To clarify, I wasn't saying that social circle dating (relationship hunting) is ideal or perfect or even the best choice; I was just pointing out that far more people find mates and form long term relationships that way than via cold PUA/gaming, and they seem by-and-large ok with it.

In addition to those points, the notable fact you seem to be excluding is that game works wonders on warm approaches / people you already know. What attracts women you don't know attracts women you do and are comfortable with tenfold.

As far as I can see that is irrelevant to the point we were discussing....which is the/your idea that a typical guy chooses a mate from a sample of just ten (the number of sexual partners he has on average). The point @DJV made and I echoed was that guys who find women via warm or social circle dating have a much larger number of women for which they choose their sex partners. At an extreme, a guy can easily have interacted with hundreds of women he knows/met in various ways over a period of years, and he is selecting from those, not just the one's he has sex with...indeed, in some cases, he may not have sex with any of them before making a commitment to one of them.

If its easy for you, lucky you are! But I wouldn't assume every guy has such an easy time finding sexual partners! I hear it all the time from guys who can't really get laid here. Even those that do - just walk around Tokyo.

Fwiiw, I don't really think about dating or relationships for gaijin in Japan any differently than I think of them in general. Maybe PUA/gaming is more needed here for gaijin males than elsewhere, however little or much that is. I have no particular opinion on that point.

By comparison our female foreigner counterparts are doing quite well for themselves!

Uhhh...you do realize that this is absolutely contrary to conventional wisdom in the gaijin community, and even in the popular media? There were a bunch of articles on how dismally difficult it is for a foreign woman to date Japanese men a few years back. It is the reason that mixed couples in Japan are about 10x more likely to be a J-female with a Western-male than vice versa.

-Ww
 
Yeah man that's cool. It just comes down to being honest with yourself about why you do what you do, and being able to live with that answer, cuz I reckon a lot of people bullshit and short-change the one person they should treat the best and respect the most: themselves.
Nothing wrong with the guy who's got the basic girlfriend with the vanilla sex, the office job, the 4-door saloon and meatloaf on Tuesdays. As long as he's being honest with himself when he says this is what he wants, not what he's settling for cuz he's scared or lazy or whatever. Or, even if hes honest about being scared or not being motivated enough to seek out what he wants, is he really okay with that.

Well...maybe so, but it is very hard for anyone to know what is in another's heart and inner thoughts; it is often hard for people to know even about themselves in any clear way. But you can infer motivation from behavior. A guy might not rush out of his house to help a neighbor whose house is on fire, but he probably will rush out of his house if it is the one in flames. From this you can deduce what matters to him more.

My point is that while most adult men would like having more and more attractive sex partners and love to talk about such women, in reality they expend much more effort on their work, their families and even their hobbies. This too implies strength of motivation.

Anyway, I think that many TAG discussions are somewhat untethered from reality because we imagine that we are fairly normal people. For the most part we are not.

-Ww
 
while most adult men would like having more and more attractive sex partners and love to talk about such women, in reality they expend much more effort on their work, their families and even their hobbies. This too implies strength of motivation.

Honestly, I think most people's main motivation is comfort, which is kind of the opposite of going and talking to a woman who's gonna lay the smackdown on your ego. Meditation is a similarly hard hobby to maintain because it isn't really "comfortable" in the way most people like and also confronts your ego. 30 minutes of meditation seems like torture for most, whereas 30 minutes on your phone or watching tv breezes by
 
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Uhhh...you do realize that this is absolutely contrary to conventional wisdom in the gaijin community, and even in the popular media? There were a bunch of articles on how dismally difficult it is for a foreign woman to date Japanese men a few years back. It is the reason that mixed couples in Japan are about 10x more likely to be a J-female with a Western-male than vice versa.

I'm just describing what I see.. Which doesn't have anything to do with longevity. Maybe the relationships are very unstable and unhappy, but at least foreign women walk around with very nice looking dudes! Conversely, maybe the relationships are very happy and long term, but the foreign men I see by and large aren't walking around with Japanese stunners

At an extreme, a guy can easily have interacted with hundreds of women he knows/met in various ways over a period of years, and he is selecting from those, not just the one's he has sex with

True!

Having sex with only ten people in my life just sounds boring to me!
 
Honestly, I think most people's main motivation is comfort, ...

Basically agree, though fear seems to be an increasingly important motivator in modern First World societies, which is quite sadly ironic when you consider how much vastly safer those who live in those cultures are than people who live elsewhere and/or in the past.

-Ww
 
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I'm just describing what I see.. Which doesn't have anything to do with longevity. Maybe the relationships are very unstable and unhappy, but at least foreign women walk around with very nice looking dudes! Conversely, maybe the relationships are very happy and long term, but the foreign men I see by and large aren't walking around with Japanese stunners

I think the indication of how well foreign women do dating Japanese men is not the couples you see; it's the couples you don't see. In other words, the usual complaint is that most foreign women who live in Japan have great difficulty getting any dates at all with Japanese men, and when they do get one, it doesn't last long and/or involves only very infrequent dates. So, most of the time, these women are either in a couple with a foreign man or are not dating anyone at all. That's what they say at least.

Having sex with only ten people in my life just sounds boring to me!

Me too. (y)

-Ww
 
Having sex with only ten people in my life just sounds boring to me!

In my previous (looong term) phase, when I was sexually 'normal', I would never had thought that. My goal was to find one life partner, and be happy with her, including sex and everything. I never felt bored (maybe I should have, if this does make any sense).
As @Wwanderer says, there's also hobbies, and some people including me have lots of them. I'm glad I spent so much time on those. Somehow I managed to include P4P in them, which makes sense along some of my border-line hobbies.
For some of my friends, P4P was something they saw coming and were not entirely surprised about.

Basically agree, though fear seems to be an increasingly important motivator in modern First World societies, which is quite sadly ironic when you consider how much vastly safer those who live in those cultures are than people who live elsewhere and/or in the past.

-Ww

What works well in 1st world countries is Irrational fear, and it's much more difficult to deal with than the fear of a real danger. In unstable countries, you cannot solve your fears by shutting down the TV.
 
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In my view, p4p is necessary. I don't have hard statictics but almost all the countries i have heard of rape being alarming high don't have decent legal or tolerated prostitution.
I'm not saying legal prostitution could stop all rape cases or something or that guys have to react their frustrations on sex workers or that guys who do p4p would rape girls if they couldn't.
But the thing is, if you relieve yourself with a positive experience with a nice provider on time (so well before being frustrated) it could have positive inpacts on your whole life.

The stricter a society is about sexuality the more aggression, frustration and misunderstandings it causes.
We should really drop the whole "sex is immoral" thing and provide the best sex ed, easy to get birth control and entaustiatic, willing sexworkers.
 
In my view, p4p is necessary. I don't have hard statictics but almost all the countries i have heard of rape being alarming high don't have decent legal or tolerated prostitution.
I'm not saying legal prostitution could stop all rape cases or something or that guys have to react their frustrations on sex workers or that guys who do p4p would rape girls if they couldn't.
But the thing is, if you relieve yourself with a positive experience with a nice provider on time (so well before being frustrated) it could have positive inpacts on your whole life.

The stricter a society is about sexuality the more aggression, frustration and misunderstandings it causes.
We should really drop the whole "sex is immoral" thing and provide the best sex ed, easy to get birth control and entaustiatic, willing sexworkers.
I agree that P4P has it's place and should be legalized. If cuts down on the mafia and underage issues, plus lowers STD rates due to testing. If anything, governments should TAX it (money for school, infrastructure, health care...), not trying the impossible of eliminating it.

If a person thinks it's immoral, then don't partake of it. It should be an individual decision, not forcibly decided by a repressive government.

In general, many societies are unnecessary sexually repressed, to the point of creating human suffering. It's time to be more enlightened about sex and human sexuality.
 
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