Is P4p Immoral?

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Everything I get with her you can never get with the best of GFE through p4p. The experience with a real girlfriend is a whole new level of satisfaction.

I get it.
Everything is perfect with the new girlfriend. It always is that way in the beginning. The excitement, the lust.

Hopefully, the sex will still be great after 10 years. The problem with men, especially men having done p4p before is that we want variety. It's not that hard finding a girlfriend, but extremely hard to stay excited after a few years.

I don't know. I find it hard to change habits after having done p4p.

Look at supermodels. I'm pretty sure all of the men married to supermodels have cheated behind their backs. Every single one of them. Why? Because we all want variety, excitement, new experience, etc.
 
The stricter a society is about sexuality the more aggression, frustration and misunderstandings it causes.

You can see this in action - in any major city, when there is a large crackdown on street prostitution, it's generally accompanied by a spike in sexual assaults.
 
I get it. Everything is perfect with the new girlfriend. It always is that way in the beginning. The excitement, the lust.

Hopefully, the sex will still be great after 10 years. The problem with men, especially men having done p4p before is that we want variety. It's not that hard finding a girlfriend, but extremely hard to stay excited after a few years.

I don't know. I find it hard to change habits after having done p4p.

Look at supermodels. I'm pretty sure all of the men married to supermodels have cheated behind their backs. Every single one of them. Why? Because we all want variety, excitement, new experience, etc.

I already had more variety than I could ever want. I already did what I set out to do. I need the emotional aspect at my age.

I am burned out by p4p and blew a wad load of dough on it. will I go back to it? I don't know. Girlfriend or no girlfriend, I was planning on taking a break from p4p or flat out "retire."

I did p4p for too long and I just needed something it couldn't offer me after achieving more than what I could ask for. I've had enough partners to know what I want. Will temptations be there? Undeniably but I can resist.

I did p4p in the prime of my life and I've just gotten "too old." Yes, I want a new variety and experience and I need something intimate and emotional
 
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The problem with men, especially men having done p4p before is that we want variety. It's not that hard finding a girlfriend, but extremely hard to stay excited after a few years.

I don't know. I find it hard to change habits after having done p4p.

I already had more variety than I could ever want. I already did what I set out to do. I need the emotional aspect at my age.

I am burned out by p4p and blew a wad load of dough on it. will I go back to it? I don't know. Girlfriend or no girlfriend, I was planning on taking a break from p4p or flat out "retire."

I did p4p for too long and I just needed something it couldn't offer me after achieving more than what I could ask for. I've had enough partners to know what I want. Will temptations be there? Undeniably but I can resist.

I did p4p in the prime of my life and I've just gotten "too old." Yes, I want a new variety and experience and I need something intimate and emotional

Interesting how some guys think that p4p is something you get into later in life, when you're married.. or something you can't escape from once you've tasted the forbidden fruit, and other guys feel like they need to graduate or "retire" from it..
 
Interesting how some guys think that p4p is something you get into later in life, when you're married.. or something you can't escape from once you've tasted the forbidden fruit, and other guys feel like they need to graduate or "retire" from it..

It's quite rich in various sensations actually :
- the first time you try
- the moment you choose to repeat
- the choice of doing this regularly
- the secrecy, contadictions and all sorts of denials
- the moment you think you get real good at it, and you could make it work on a long term

- the first scam
- the unusually good deal
- the moments you make all sorts of crazy plans to make something unusual happen
- the moment you get over your head
- the moment you change your view on money and economy
- the moment you blow up your cover and hope for the best, or almost get busted...or get caught
- the moment you discover organized crime pulling strings
- the moment you fear for your own safety

- the moments you understand sex workers from a closer perspective
- the moment when you respect people you hadn't thought you would
- the moments it helps other aspects in your life...or quite the contrary
- etc.

It's nothing artificial to consider P4P as many life changing experiences, individually and in general : you _feel_ all this, deep down your core.
Now that you master PUA, you should give it a try ;)
 
Interesting how some guys think that p4p is something you get into later in life, when you're married.. or something you can't escape from once you've tasted the forbidden fruit, and other guys feel like they need to graduate or "retire" from it..

I did what I wanted to do and more.

p4p just simply has nothing to offer me anymore.

Maybe humans were not meant to be monogamous, but does that mean we were meant to wear condoms, too? I like the sensation of cumming inside a woman and that is strongly a no no in p4p (not to say that it happens). I like it when my girlfriend tells me the next day that cum is still oozing out.
 
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It's quite rich in various sensations actually :
- the first time you try
- the moment you choose to repeat
- the choice of doing this regularly
- the secrecy, contadictions and all sorts of denials
- the moment you think you get real good at it, and you could make it work on a long term

- the first scam
- the unusually good deal
- the moments you make all sorts of crazy plans to make something unusual happen
- the moment you get over your head
- the moment you change your view on money and economy
- the moment you blow up your cover and hope for the best, or almost get busted...or get caught
- the moment you discover organized crime pulling strings
- the moment you fear for your own safety

- the moments you understand sex workers from a closer perspective
- the moment when you respect people you hadn't thought you would
- the moments it helps other aspects in your life...or quite the contrary
- etc.

It's nothing artificial to consider P4P as many life changing experiences, individually and in general : you _feel_ all this, deep down your core.
Now that you master PUA, you should give it a try ;)
If someone has mastered PUA, then they likely already have access to plenty of sex and sexual variety.

P4P from the perspective of such a person, would then be likely for something unusual or an unusual circumstance. Some type of particular fetish, a famous actress or female athlete he had a childhood crush on that's "for sale", traveling in a different country, some type of sexual fantasy, etc...
 
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i have parkinson.so not many women would go out with me.

Thank you for raising this point. It is well known and often acknowledged in US commercial sex communities (online) that sex workers provide the only sex life available to many people with relatively serious physical handicaps.

Anyone who looks down on sex workers or their moral character or their contributions to society should think about that fact and its implications very carefully, imo.

-Ww
 
i think the reason men pay for sex is after years with the same person you get bored. its like have chicken every night.after a few years chicken is bland.ok thats bullshit we just like fucking
 
Just starting a new thread, I'll add my own opinion later but for now just wanted things to be neat

If this is in the wrong place, please move it.. Wasn't sure where to put it

@Wwanderer @just4fun @Dorian Gray

I dont think it is immoral. p4p has its uses, a lot of people rather spend the time that others chase women and chase money instead. or chase happiness. If guys can do that by using their money then thats up to them.

Some people want to use their energy directly i.e. picking up girls.

A lot of guys have just Extreme mental blocks that pretty much stop them from doing this, (i.e. Aproach Anxiety), getting over that is just way too dificult for some people

and even if they dont have trouble talking to women, they amount of work you need to put in just to have sex at timescan makes the whole chase not worth it.

I used to be one of those guys who would approach everything, in the street, in the bar, in the book store, record store, shibuya 109 etc etc everything, and yes while I did get some success. . .I just realized that it was really draining.

AND I was still poor(not that Im rich now but yeah) I was spending all of my free time chasing girls out here, after a while I just grew tired of that, ever had that post nut regret? Yeah I had that one night after having sex with a girl who was just acting silly, took me hours to have sex with her, she was BAD in bed as well! Thats when I stopped trying to pick up women actively, I mean I still do like online stuff here and there or hit up a bar every once in a while and sometimes Ill find something but at this point in my life I have things that I want to do to get my life in a better place. I love it when having sex with a fairly attractive girl is just easy, not a struggle, or a second/third job. Right now I am in the middle of just building myself up so that I can attract women to me and have fun and easy experiences with women (mainly body, and living location) Thing is; this takes time, and since I`m spending all of my time on trying to improve myself, I simply just dont have time to chase women, try to get them on dates, deal with flakes, changed minds, dead end conversations, dead end attempts at getting a one night stand with a girl, contact information and correspondence that goes no where etc etc. . .I realized that it was a huge time sink doing somethign that I hate. Why not just spend that time on doing the things that I love? Then Pay whatever I need to pay to get some decent companionship when I need it?

There may be a time when I wont need it, and women will just flock to me without having to hustle like I did in my early 20`s. We all just want to be happy, Men want sex and companion ship with multiple women, women want resources/money, and security. Both have something the other wants so why would an exchange be immoral?

Just because you trade your resources for sex (pick up is the same thing in my opinion you just trade time you could be spending doing things you love) doesnt mean you are `less of a person` because you didnt `grow` in the arts of picking up women. You can grow through other things as well. There is no one `Right` way to live and we as humans are never going to agree on that one way, ever. what Dorain Gray said is just his own opinion. He wanted to Row against the current to get what he wanted, and it worked for him! A lot of people dont want to spend their lives that way, they DONT love or even like the `challenge` the grind etc.



Everyone wants a piece of their own happiness, and they dont want to have to climb the Mt. Everest of their lives to do it.


The whole trafficking thing is not really a cause to stop p4p really, I mean if that were an issue then you might as well just not wear clothes, as pretty much everything you wear is either made through slave labor or in sweat shops in India/africa/china(yes this still happens) Hell just look at the world cup in Quatar, its pretty much being built by slaves with many dying every day! Yet pretty much every one is still going to watch the world cup.

The world isnt always going to be peaches and roses, we just live the best we know how. Our desires cant really be denied, as men(sexual side), and as humans in general, so its just easier for a lot of men to go the path of least resistance. Thing is, there`s NOTHING wrong with that.
 
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I dont think it is immoral. p4p has its uses, a lot of people rather spend the time that others chase women and chase money instead. or chase happiness. If guys can do that by using their money then thats up to them.

Some people want to use their energy directly i.e. picking up girls.

A lot of guys have just Extreme mental blocks that pretty much stop them from doing this, (i.e. Aproach Anxiety), getting over that is just way too dificult for some people

and even if they dont have trouble talking to women, they amount of work you need to put in just to have sex at timescan makes the whole chase not worth it.

I used to be one of those guys who would approach everything, in the street, in the bar, in the book store, record store, shibuya 109 etc etc everything, and yes while I did get some success. . .I just realized that it was really draining.

AND I was still poor(not that Im rich now but yeah) I was spending all of my free time chasing girls out here, after a while I just grew tired of that, ever had that post nut regret? Yeah I had that one night after having sex with a girl who was just acting silly, took me hours to have sex with her, she was BAD in bed as well! Thats when I stopped trying to pick up women actively, I mean I still do like online stuff here and there or hit up a bar every once in a while and sometimes Ill find something but at this point in my life I have things that I want to do to get my life in a better place. I love it when having sex with a fairly attractive girl is just easy, not a struggle, or a second/third job. Right now I am in the middle of just building myself up so that I can attract women to me and have fun and easy experiences with women (mainly body, and living location) Thing is; this takes time, and since I`m spending all of my time on trying to improve myself, I simply just dont have time to chase women, try to get them on dates, deal with flakes, changed minds, dead end conversations, dead end attempts at getting a one night stand with a girl, contact information and correspondence that goes no where etc etc. . .I realized that it was a huge time sink doing somethign that I hate. Why not just spend that time on doing the things that I love? Then Pay whatever I need to pay to get some decent companionship when I need it?

There may be a time when I wont need it, and women will just flock to me without having to hustle like I did in my early 20`s. We all just want to be happy, Men want sex and companion ship with multiple women, women want resources/money, and security. Both have something the other wants so why would an exchange be immoral?

Just because you trade your resources for sex (pick up is the same thing in my opinion you just trade time you could be spending doing things you love) doesnt mean you are `less of a person` because you didnt `grow` in the arts of picking up women. You can grow through other things as well. There is no one `Right` way to live and we as humans are never going to agree on that one way, ever. what Dorain Gray said is just his own opinion. He wanted to Row against the current to get what he wanted, and it worked for him! A lot of people dont want to spend their lives that way, they DONT love or even like the `challenge` the grind etc.



Everyone wants a piece of their own happiness, and they dont want to have to climb the Mt. Everest of their lives to do it.


The whole trafficking thing is not really a cause to stop p4p really, I mean if that were an issue then you might as well just not wear clothes, as pretty much everything you wear is either made through slave labor or in sweat shops in India/africa/china(yes this still happens) Hell just look at the world cup in Quatar, its pretty much being built by slaves with many dying every day! Yet pretty much every one is still going to watch the world cup.

The world isnt always going to be peaches and roses, we just live the best we know how. Our desires cant really be denied, as men(sexual side), and as humans in general, so its just easier for a lot of men to go the path of least resistance. Thing is, there`s NOTHING wrong with that.
I think this is a great way to view it.
 
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@Dorian Gray mentioned several pages back about a guy who was into p4p and was negatively influenced by it, and is currently slated to be married. That was me. =P

Back when I was in college, I couldn't get laid to save my life. I lost my virginity somewhat against my will, and p4p became the only way I could have sex. At the time, it did indeed negatively affect my opinions about women, sex, etc. It became a shameful thing I couldn't give up and left me feeling like complete and utter crap. My personality and confidence were completely screwed.

Then I learned about game and dove into it head first because I was tired of my life situation. I was tired of striking out with girls I was crazy about, tired of feeling lonely and empty, and then feeling even worse going to p4p places, especially getting turned away in Japan for being a foreigner. Now, my view on it has changed about p4p massively. To me, escorts, clubs, etc all provide a much needed social service, especially in a country like Japan where in relationships it's somewhat acceptable. My wife doesn't want to dress up in a school girl outfit, yet I've got the fantasy. P4P is a good solution. Life is about experiences and if your partner isn't willing to provide an experience you're jonesing for, then there are legal, safe(ish?) methods for you to explore. I think that's an amazing part of it. One of the last things on my "to do" list is a reverse gangbang, and I am nowhere near talented enough in game to arrange that. P4P is probably my only option with that.

Like with anything else in life, it depends entirely on the individual whether or not it's "moral." If you're using P4P because it's the only thing you can possibly get, IMO it can be extremely damaging to the individual. I wouldn't call it immoral, I'd call it unhealthy more than anything. Then there are guys who can develop a twisted view of healthy sex with their partners, which can also cause issues in future (or current) relationships, similar to the effect that too much porn can have on an individual (premature ejaculation, unrealistic expectations, etc). However, if you're a guy with a perfectly healthy sex life, and you want to use P4P to explore new things, I'd say that's exactly what they're there for. Recently I went to a Soapland for the first time and it was a new and exciting experience for me. Likely wouldn't repeat any time soon, but that's a memory that's gonna stick with me for awhile. Personally I wish a cross between an onsen and soapland existed complete with board certified masseuses, fruit smoothies, sadly I think I have to keep dreaming on that one... :(
 
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depending on which definition is chosen, even the masturbation can be seen as immoral. "moral" is an ambiguous word with various definition depending on the cultural background.

so I say anyone is free to define his own morality as long as he doesn't force anyone else to stick to his personnal definition of "moral".
 
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The premise of this post makes me shake my head so violently that it induces vertigo.

If someone would ask me whether he should invest 80,000 JPY into a @Sinapse bootcamp, or 2 hours with @User#8628, I would always recommend the latter, simply because success would be guaranteed, and because it would result in more sex than many will get after the seminar. And why in the world is a straightforward transaction - I give you money, you give me sex – supposed to be immoral? Why then is exploiting young boys – you give me money, I tell you how you might get sex – supposed to be an act of stellar morals?

I know of a pioneer pick-up artist (think Usenet and alt.seduction.fast) who had no such moral qualms, and who rented out the girls he picked up. He was an inexhaustible writer also. Be careful, @Sinapse, in your manuals, you might be (I am pretty sure you are, it's unavoidable) quoting, paraphrasing, or simply copying the words of a prolific pimp. This is all I will say to this topic, no follow-ups will be entertained.
 
If someone would ask me whether he should invest 80,000 JPY into a @Sinapse bootcamp, or 2 hours with @User#8628, I would always recommend the latter, simply because success would be guaranteed, and because it would result in more sex than many will get after the seminar.

Having gamed with most of the guys who have taken the DG/Sinapse bootcamp, I can tell you're either lying or ignorant. All of the guys who have taken a bootcamp with @Sinapse have/do eventually get a healthy sex life, even the hard cases due to the post bootcamp support group that comes with it, with many of them having sex at least once on the boot camp. Furthermore, the concepts taught are not just aimed at getting girls, but improving everyone's personal life for the better. I can't imagine why something like this makes you so angry.

We're discussing the morality of p4p, not whether or not Sinapse's bootcamp is worth attending.

More on point, sex is a wonderful thing for many reasons, beyond just physical pleasure. There is nothing better than having a night of passionate sex with a lover, falling asleep in each other's arms, waking up the next day and sharing a sweet kiss and going for round n+1. It really depends on the provider I think, but I've had some p4p events that were pretty bad. I don't mean in terms of physical pleasure, but motivation and emotional connection on the girl's part. The sex was just a transaction and the girl acted as if though she was just a hole for me to cum into. IMO, this is a really depressing view of sex. Even incredibly inexperienced girls I've slept with were more into it and were more fulfilling to me because emotionally and motivationally, we were on the same page. At the same time, I've had some amazing providers that opened my world to new adventures and experiences that made the sex a wonderful and amazing experience, yet still can't hold a candle to sex with a girl I'm emotionally invested to.

Thing is though, the PUAs who actually get decent in game view sex as more than just pleasure, it's a form of expression: when words aren't enough and sex is the next natural progression of how you express your feelings to a girl. Most guys get into PUA to get laid, but along the way, there's a paradigm shift that occurs to where sex is no longer a goal, it's an evolution into the next phase. The fact that @Babaram is talking about guaranteed sex vs a bootcamp kind of illustrates to me that he doesn't differentiate the difference between sleeping with an escort and sleeping with a girl he likes, which I think is a pretty toxic place to be in. It's a little sad that a lot of people (here) equate paying for dinner/movie/coffee with just paying for an escort.

I don't think it's immoral, but in some ways, it can cheapen the value of sex if you're just hanging out with girls who behave like it's a transaction (having never been with any of the providers on TAG, this comment is not directed towards them, but rather a subset of girls who are less than enthusiastic and in the adult industry).

I know of a pioneer pick-up artist (think Usenet and alt.seduction.fast) who had no such moral qualms, and who rented out the girls he picked up.

PUA/Nanpa/Game, whatever you wanna call it is just a tool in the same way a knife is a tool. If the user is an immoral douche, then the tool gets used for immoral things. However, saying things like this implies that PUA is no more immoral than P4P is disingenuous as best.
 
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