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Paying For Dinner Scam By Older Japanese Women

Solong

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This has happened to friends and myself a number of times, to the point that it looks to be a pattern. Wanted to warn other foreign guys about it, so they are more informed, and can better decide what to do about it. Now, before I continue, I want to make it clear that I have no problem paying for dinners when I have a romantic interest in the woman, I'm significantly older than the woman (like 10 years or so), or she doesn't have a job. However, what I do object to is being conned or scammed on. Where the woman is playing guys for fools or for free drinks and dinners, and she has no romantic interest whatsoever.

It appears various older Japanese women from mid 30s on up (and who have jobs or are older than the guy on the date), and often from online dating sites, will come to dates with no money. She will order as much food and drinks as she can. When the bill arrives, and if the guy looks to them to pay their half, she will claim that she has no money, only a credit card. This is to get the guy to pay. Basically, guys are used for free dinners.

Counters to such tactics:

1. Do not take an online or arguably 1st date to an expensive restaurant.

If it's not clear she has a romantic interest in you, then the guy might want to save his money. A woman that really likes you, doesn't mind going to an ordinary place or even just having coffee. And there are many nice restaurants that are inexpensive.

2. The guy should attempt to test the woman in some way, to determine if she authentically likes him or is receptive to sex.

This can be through touch testing, having a non-vulgar talk about a sexual topic (often requires the guy be a skilled/good conversationalist to pull this off correctly), or doing things like talking about bikinis and showing her pictures of such to gauge her reaction (pulling that is risky, as can offend).

3. Have her pay with her credit card

If she claims not to have any cash, then you give her X amount of cash (that you think fair) and then have her use her credit card to pay.
 
This has happened to friends and myself a number of times, to the point that it looks to be a pattern. Wanted to warn other foreign guys about it, so they are more informed, and can better decide what to do about it. Now, before I continue, I want to make it clear that I have no problem paying for dinners when I have a romantic interest in the woman, I'm significantly older than the woman (like 10 years or so), or she doesn't have a job. However, what I do object to is being conned or scammed on. Where the woman is playing guys for fools or for free drinks and dinners, and she has no romantic interest whatsoever.

It appears various older Japanese women from mid 30s on up (and who have jobs or are older than the guy on the date), and often from online dating sites, will come to dates with no money. She will order as much food and drinks as she can. When the bill arrives, and if the guy looks to them to pay their half, she will claim that she has no money, only a credit card. This is to get the guy to pay. Basically, guys are used for free dinners.

Counters to such tactics:

1. Do not take an online or arguably 1st date to an expensive restaurant.

If it's not clear she has a romantic interest in you, then the guy might want to save his money. A woman that really likes you, doesn't mind going to an ordinary place or even just having coffee. And there are many nice restaurants that are inexpensive.

2. The guy should attempt to test the woman in some way, to determine if she authentically likes him or is receptive to sex.

This can be through touch testing, having a non-vulgar talk about a sexual topic (often requires the guy be a skilled/good conversationalist to pull this off correctly), or doing things like talking about bikinis and showing her pictures of such to gauge her reaction (pulling that is risky, as can offend).

3. Have her pay with her credit card

If she claims not to have any cash, then you give her X amount of cash (that you think fair) and then have her use her credit card to pay.

Interesting situations Solong and sorry to hear that you and your friends have had some bad experiences.

I have a few questions that may help to clarify and/or enhance the potential discussion that your post brings up.

This first question is directed at anyone with anthropology/sociology degrees/experience: What constitutes a 'pattern" of behaviour? Is it merely similar circumstances as Solong states above or do patterns have to have some kind of connection between those committing the pattern in order to be considered scientifically valid in sociological/anthropological terms? I'm asking this because I truely do not know. It just seems that when any kind of cultural behaviour is analyzed, there is usually a link between the members who have similar behaviour that is not just 'age', 'sex' or 'nationality'.

The second question is for Solong and his friends: What overall percentage of older women have done this to you? What percentage on online dates have done this to you? and what percentage of online older dates have done this to you? These kinds of clearer breakdowns I think would help clarify how strong a pattern and likelihood this situation is to occur.

All in all tho, potentially very interesting.
 
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While this does seem to be the best idea, I can't help but think that if you invite someone on a first date to an expensive restaurant that it is kind of implied that you will pay. Again, I would opt for coffee to avoid this. You can always extend the date to include dinner if things are going well.

I agree with this to an extent, which is why I suggest guys don't take women to such very expensive restaurants on 1st dates. In this way, if mutual interest isn't demonstrated, then no hard feelings.

Also, online dating is a bit tricky. It's often that the man and woman are agreeing to meet and men are usually put in the situation where they must ask, otherwise nothing happens.

I think women can contribute, when they have mutually agreed to meet, or make their expectations that they like men to pay or be traditional in that way clear. Often, a woman saying thank you and a smile or some token contribution is greatly appreciated, versus the arrogant expectation of he should always pay, in a NP4P setting.

I'm not an advocate of coffee only type dates, because this tends to limit good places to have conversations at, and can create a very un-romantic vibe that negatively affects the outcome. Taking her to Starbucks or a donut shop, can give women a bad impression too. There are nice inexpensive restaurants all around Tokyo, that are also good for conversations and where the impression is "neutral". And from there, if any chemistry, can go to another place.
 
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Interesting situations Solong and sorry to hear that you and your friends have had some bad experiences.

I have a few questions that may help to clarify and/or enhance the potential discussion that your post brings up.

This first question is directed at anyone with anthropology/sociology degrees/experience: What constitutes a 'pattern" of behaviour? Is it merely similar circumstances as Solong states above or do patterns have to have some kind of connection between those committing the pattern in order to be considered scientifically valid in sociological/anthropological terms? I'm asking this because I truely do not know. It just seems that when any kind of cultural behaviour is analyzed, there is usually a link between the members who have similar behaviour that is not just 'age', 'sex' or 'nationality'.

The second question is for Solong and his friends: What overall percentage of older women have done this to you? What percentage on online dates have done this to you? and what percentage of online older dates have done this to you? These kinds of clearer breakdowns I think would help clarify how strong a pattern and likelihood this situation is to occur.

All in all tho, potentially very interesting.
Keep in mind I have been in Japan for many years and actively do dating, so have been on a high hundreds (if not more) of dates. So have my friends... Thus years of experience make patterns a bit more obvious. It's of course more anecdotal and observational, than percise scientific study.
I'm stating it's a pattern, because on dates, younger Japanese women don't usually do such or it's clear they are in college or not working. And this appears to happen more on online dates with older Japanese women, versus say those met by direct approach/pickup.
 
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Personally I never suggest or agree to a restaurant for a first date where the check is likely to be more than I am willing and able to pay...anything else just strikes me as asking for an awkward situation that could easily derail a nice budding connection and set of first impressions.

A first meeting for coffee/tea/drinks only is very unsatisfactory for me. It just doesn't allow enough time for the initial nervousness and awkwardnesses to dissipate and permit usefully accurate first impressions and "chemical" reactions to take place. (Or, @User#16452 , maybe it simply isn't enough time for my voice to have its desired effect!? :D <<== inside joke/reference) I cannot recall a single time that such a short first meeting even led to a second meeting off the top of my head. So, for me at least, it is important to start with a meal and, ideally, an even more extended first date...like doing some shared activity after the meal.

-Ww
 
There could be many reasons for this, but one of them could just boil down to the fact that perhaps the women don't want to pay anything because they basically didn't have that great a time, and don't want a second date. Perhaps the reason you and your friends are seeing a pattern that other people are not, says more about your behaviour than it does about the women.

The fact you are seeing the pattern in older women, may be because they are more aware of the scams that guys are playing.
They may be looking for relationships whereas you are playing the "I'm not prepared to go past 2 dates without getting laid".
Your sex talk may not be as subtle as you and your friends would like to believe, and they believe that if you are going to treat them like a phone sex line, that you may as well pay the premium.
They may pick up on the feeling that some of you debate whether women are actually capable of love, so are a little disgusted to be on a date with you.
Maybe there's a website where a "large number" of women go to discuss how men are incapable of having a serious relationship so they may as well get you to pay for dinner.
Maybe they are picking up on the fact that you believe everything negative about them is because they are Japanese.

All in all, I wouldn't claim there is a scam because you and your friends are seeing a pattern, perhaps you are causing the pattern yourselves.
 
I'm not an advocate of coffee only type dates, because this tends to limit good places to have conversations at, and can create a very un-romantic vibe that negatively affects the outcome. Taking her to Starbucks or a donut shop, can give women a bad impression too.

Coffee dates can go very well if you choose your venue well - as you say, Starbucks is going to leave a bad impression (not to mention the taste in your mouth... ugh!), but there are still plenty of high-end kissaten (think 1,000-1,500 yen per cup) around Tokyo, usually with a lovely ambiance on top of serving excellent coffee. If you're scouting a neighbourhood, look for shops with a row of coffee siphons at the counter, or a large brass and copper Belle Epoque espresso machine that's clearly well cared for.

(I may take my coffee seriously...)
 
This conversation made me think that perhaps I am a bit old fashioned, or perhaps old in the general sense?

I have never allowed a woman to pay for me in the restaurant, etc. I would be embarrassed if that happened, to be quite frank.

Also, most of the time when I have dinner with someone I fancy in a way of another, the other party would not (you get used to it, eventually), alas I still like to pay for the two of us.

But then again, I am an old fashioned European, not very up-to-date with today's dating and mating rituals :( It's been a while since I was on a date, let alone date in Japan.

Black.
 
Much like the dogs that shit in the living room every day see a pattern of being put outside when their owners return from work. Or should we clarify "their Japanese owners".
 
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Recently I go on relatively few dates. It's almost always just an SNL or SDL, and then if she's really REALLY amazing then I'll get her number and take her on a date and be ready to pay for everything. Otherwise maybe I'll invite her to some event or party with other friends of mine as well so it's not so much pressure and if she cancels or isn't interesting, I can just be with them.

And there's an easy way to avoid this "scam".... Date only women under 25! Yum.
 
Recently I go on relatively few dates. It's almost always just an SNL or SDL,

I had no idea what he was talking about so I checked the Interweb.

SNL: Saturday Night Live.

About SDL

Simple DirectMedia Layer is a cross-platform development library designed to provide low level access to audio, keyboard, mouse, joystick, and graphics hardware via OpenGL and Direct3D. It is used by video playback software, emulators, and popular games including Valve's award winning catalog and many Humble Bundle games.

SDL officially supports Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, iOS, and Android. Support for other platforms may be found in the source code.

SDL is written in C, works natively with C++, and there are bindings available for several other languages, including C# and Python.

SDL 2.0 is distributed under the zlib license. This license allows you to use SDL freely in any software.
 
There could be many reasons for this, but one of them could just boil down to the fact that perhaps the women don't want to pay anything because they basically didn't have that great a time, and don't want a second date.

I understand your scenarios, but they look like negative projection or what you might want to be the case, versus what was actually typed. Allow me to clarify.

The future of possibly dating each other isn't the sole choice of the woman, as if she is queen of all existence, but also the man's choice. It's a combination of if we BOTH want to see each other.

The scam-like behavior is divorced from outcome. Meaning my friends and I were both unsuccessful and successful at having sex or 2nd dates with such women. We've been on dates where women DID pay half or contributed, but didn't have sex. And where she DIDN'T pay half or contributed, and we did have sex.

Perhaps the reason you and your friends are seeing a pattern that other people are not, says more about your behaviour than it does about the women.

Such women claimed they didn't have cash, and some showed their wallet to prove such. Therefore, not having cash isn't dependent on male behavior, but her own.

The fact you are seeing the pattern in older women, may be because they are more aware of the scams that guys are playing.
They may be looking for relationships whereas you are playing the "I'm not prepared to go past 2 dates without getting laid".

This is negative projection on your part, and divorced from the reality of what the women may have been thinking or what my friends and I think.

Also, the woman doesn't know in advance what my friends or I are thinking about how many dates before sex. Nor can we read her mind. So what is clear is the behavior. That is to show up on dates with no cash and try to avoid paying half or contributing any money.

Your sex talk may not be as subtle as you and your friends would like to believe, and they believe that if you are going to treat them like a phone sex line, that you may as well pay the premium.

I don't talk about sex directly, or anything vulgar or graphic, unless she does (and only in direct response to her questions). It's indirect sexual topic talk, and starts in a very socially acceptable way. Like for instance woman's open-toe shoes. The conversation progresses no further than the type of input and response the woman gives. I don't expect someone not familiar with such to completely understand, but keep in mind I have done such many HUNDREDS of times on different dates. Consequently, I have a very strong grasp on how to do it and where the "lines" are of what's acceptable or how to rapidly change topics.

Furthermore, "sexual" talk is not my only technique to determine attraction, and I may not even use such. I might just use KINO.

They may pick up on the feeling that some of you debate whether women are actually capable of love, so are a little disgusted to be on a date with you.

This argument is outright ludicrous. You are posting a scenario as if ALL Japanese women my friends and I date are reading our threads on TAG in advance. Specifically know our views and that all women are against them. And then you added your "disgust" projection/wish. You are not debating honestly nor are you slick. I see what you did there
:-(

Maybe there's a website where a "large number" of women go to discuss how men are incapable of having a serious relationship so they may as well get you to pay for dinner.
Maybe they are picking up on the fact that you believe everything negative about them is because they are Japanese.

Then your arguments and negative mind-reading projections got even crazier. The women are deciding to go out on the dates. If they felt that way, then they would never go out on dates with men.

Not all women have the intent to scam on men, just some particular women do. Scamming men, is a reflection of that particular woman's thinking, not that of men. It's like you are blaming the victim of a robbery, instead of the robber.

I'm NOT racist against Japanese women. I in fact adore them and Japan. Because a Porsche owner has a minor complaint about his car doesn't mean he hates it. Think about it.


All in all, I wouldn't claim there is a scam because you and your friends are seeing a pattern, perhaps you are causing the pattern yourselves.

1) Your conclusion is illogical, not supported by any evidence, and is just playing the game of trying to twist everything backwards.

2) A man has an EQUAL right to decide if he wants to pay for a woman or not. Somehow that has escaped you.

3) If a man went on a date and claimed: he had no cash, ran to and stayed in the bathroom when the check came, or pretended he couldn't find his wallet then would that be OK? I think not.
 
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Recently I go on relatively few dates. It's almost always just an SNL or SDL, and then if she's really REALLY amazing then I'll get her number and take her on a date and be ready to pay for everything. Otherwise maybe I'll invite her to some event or party with other friends of mine as well so it's not so much pressure and if she cancels or isn't interesting, I can just be with them.

And there's an easy way to avoid this "scam".... Date only women under 25! Yum.
Actually, 30 and under seem to do this infrequently, and there is much more openness about job, financial situation, seniority, or on how to pay the bill. Even some ask on how we should split it, and I usually reward such openness. Consequently, it's usually not an issue.

No problem whatsoever paying for college girls, women that don't have jobs, or women who are significantly younger than me.
[emoji3]
 
I think if you invite someone to meet you at a restaurant without discussing who is paying you should be prepared to pay - whether it's a platonic friend, a business acquaintance or a potential romantic partner. If I am inviting someone to an expensive restaurant and I am expecting them to pay I usually check that the price range won't cause them any problems.
 
I think if you invite someone to meet you at a restaurant without discussing who is paying you should be prepared to pay - whether it's a platonic friend, a business acquaintance or a potential romantic partner. If I am inviting someone to an expensive restaurant and I am expecting them to pay I usually check that the price range won't cause them any problems.
That's a decent argument. My response was for guys to go someplace inexpensive, therefore the price is low.

If the man and woman really like each other, then they can go someplace better/expensive on the 2nd date.

Also, Online dates are a bit trickier than traditional dating. The woman can have "liked", "picked", messaged the guy first, or suggest they meet up (but not specify anything and leave that to the guy).
 
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1) Your conclusion is illogical, not supported by any evidence, and is just playing the game of trying to twist everything backwards.
And what "evidence" is your conclusion reached by, the "feeling" that you and your friends have? My evidence, based on my large sample size (i.e. Just me) is that women are just human beings that have no hidden agenda to scam men once they go past their 30th birthday.
I've never once had a woman turn up to a date without any cash, and I've dated a few over 30's from Internet sites. I did once have a woman lose her purse though on a date, but I guess she was a master scammer, as crying and trekking us back to the restaurant, bar and JR lost property certainly earned her the 2,000 yen I gave her so she could get home and to work the next day (and I offered her 10 but she would only take 2)

It's certainly enlightening the things that only seem to happen to you and your friends, but of course just playing the numbers game the way you do means you'll get to see a much broader scope of people than the non PUA do. (Thankfully)