Called a Pink Salon. They asked for my citizenship, what is the logic behind this?

[magicmodelol]

I called to make a reservation for a Pink Salon, and the guy hung up on me before I could even talk. Called him up again, he asked me for my citizenship, and before I even answered he hung up again... I really don't get this. I know Japan likes to play it safe, but aren't pink salons perfectly legitimate? I really don't understand, any answers appeciated.

 

[TAG Manager]

I called to make a reservation for a Pink Salon, and the guy hung up on me before I could even talk. Called him up again, he asked me for my citizenship, and before I even answered he hung up again... I really don't get this. I know Japan likes to play it safe, but aren't pink salons perfectly legitimate? I really don't understand, any answers appeciated.

They have their own right to reject clients based on race, nationality or whatever they like to make up on the spot.
And to be honest, Pink Salons are more of a walk-in sort of thing, I don't know of many people trying to book & reserve someone ahead of time.
It doesn't have much to do with 'playing it safe'. Some days, they just don't want your money... try somewhere else.

 

[Lars Lust]

I called to make a reservation for a Pink Salon, and the guy hung up on me before I could even talk. Called him up again, he asked me for my citizenship, and before I even answered he hung up again... I really don't get this. I know Japan likes to play it safe, but aren't pink salons perfectly legitimate? I really don't understand, any answers appeciated.

Just the no-gaijin policy. Only few pink salons in Tokyo accept non-Japanese. This has been discussed at length here before. It has nothing to do with safety. In some cases because of bad experience with foreigners in the past. In other cases probably because it’s seen as bad business, as Japanese customers are supposed to be uncomfortable seeing a foreign face on the next sofa. And probably other reasons too.

 

[magicmodelol]

Japanese customers are supposed to be uncomfortable seeing a foreign face on the next sofa. And probably other reasons too.

Sounds like small dick syndrome to me...

 

[CharlieSimms]

More so the perception that foreigners are much more likely to carry STDs, including AIDS. Not that big dicks are popular in Japan sex establishments at all - quite the opposite. Much more work - sore jaws and generally take longer to pop. That’s from the provider view - I’m sure customers could care less the dick size of the guy next to them. And the myth that foreigners on average are materially bigger on average is bullshit anyway. 1-2cm or something like that. Nothing to write home about. Lol.

 

[magicmodelol]

More so the perception that foreigners are much more likely to carry STDs, including AIDS. Not that big dicks are popular in Japan sex establishments at all - quite the opposite. Much more work - sore jaws and generally take longer to pop. That’s from the provider view - I’m sure customers could care less the dick size of the guy next to them. And the myth that foreigners on average are materially bigger on average is bullshit anyway. 1-2cm or something like that. Nothing to write home about. Lol.

Somehow naturalizing as a Japanese citizen suddenly solves all those problems... Still unsure of the logic of the "citizenship" requirement. Perhaps if they flat out refused people based on race, they could be sued for discrimination (which is illegal in Japan). Then again, the legal system does not favour foreigners at all, even if the law is on our side.

 

[MikeH]

Then again, the legal system does not favour foreigners at all, even if the law is on our side.

The thing about legal systems is they are not supposed to favour anyone. Then again I have never in my three decades in Japan found myself in a situation where I am mistreated when the law is on my side. I have heard plenty of foreign people whining about it though, most of the time without giving any concrete evidence except "I read it from the internet".

 

[CharlieSimms]

Somehow naturalizing as a Japanese citizen suddenly solves all those problems... Still unsure of the logic of the "citizenship" requirement. Perhaps if they flat out refused people based on race, they could be sued for discrimination (which is illegal in Japan). Then again, the legal system does not favour foreigners at all, even if the law is on our side.

I wonder about this. Would the average pink salon open loving arms to a clearly racially non-Japanese person just because they can produce a Japanese passport…. Some probably. Many I would think still not. I am not sure the letter of the law is all that a priority for the management of these establishments. More a question here anyway. Would be interesting to know about some real case studies indeed.

 

[Sudsy]

I wonder about this. Would the average pink salon open loving arms to a clearly racially non-Japanese person just because they can produce a Japanese passport….

There's video out there of Debito haranguing an adult establishment for refusing him entry - and the second he produces his Japanese passport, the doorman is like, "Oh, you're a citizen, very sorry, please come in!"

Of course Debito made flustered excuses and slunk away....

 

[requiemmorrow]

Life is just easier when you accept that there are people who can live peacefully that don't want to be involved with you. As a non-white living in white USA, I got over that almost three decades ago, when in 1st grade some kid said to me that "I don't want to sit next to the African turd" in class. The teacher shrugged and excused him as just joking. About a decade later he and I found some common ground (watching anime) and he became one of my closest friends. We still talk today.
Nowadays, his entire family and that teacher would be crucified if that sort of language were to transpire.

Thus when I came to Japan and was sternly refuted for being foreign, I never threw a tantrum. You can't make people do what they don't want to do. I suspect, though, that as soaplands are starting to warm up here in Kawasaki, pink salons might hop on in a little bit, too. I give it another 5-10 years.

I'm probably being ridiculously optimistic, but I try to see it this way: Be kind and happy even if they hate you. Because it is a lot easier to shake an open hand than pry open a closed one.

 

[magicmodelol]

The thing about legal systems is they are not supposed to favour anyone. Then again I have never in my three decades in Japan found myself in a situation where I am mistreated when the law is on my side. I have heard plenty of foreign people whining about it though, most of the time without giving any concrete evidence except "I read it from the internet".

Except it is not what "I read from the internet", it is the words of an actual practicing lawyer I know in Japan.

 

[magicmodelol]

Life is just easier when you accept that there are people who can live peacefully that don't want to be involved with you. As a non-white living in white USA, I got over that almost three decades ago, when in 1st grade some kid said to me that "I don't want to sit next to the African turd" in class. The teacher shrugged and excused him as just joking. About a decade later he and I found some common ground (watching anime) and he became one of my closest friends. We still talk today.
Nowadays, his entire family and that teacher would be crucified if that sort of language were to transpire.

Thus when I came to Japan and was sternly refuted for being foreign, I never threw a tantrum. You can't make people do what they don't want to do. I suspect, though, that as soaplands are starting to warm up here in Kawasaki, pink salons might hop on in a little bit, too. I give it another 5-10 years.

I'm probably being ridiculously optimistic, but I try to see it this way: Be kind and happy even if they hate you. Because it is a lot easier to shake an open hand than pry open a closed one.

Thanks for the nice reply.- yeah I am non-white, and I agree with you about privilege back home vs here. Racism does not shock me, from my own personal experience. It just disappoints me more than anything. But Japan is changing, ever so slowly. They are primarily a risk-adverse country, they stick with what they know and what they are comfortable with. They very rarely like dipping their feet in something new. Japanese can be very stubborn too. They stick to their principles, even if it ends up costing them. All of those adds to my frustrations, as at the end of the day, just wanted to get my dick wet. But my only option are chinese obaasans, or nampa at bars, which I have better luck at.

 

[requiemmorrow]

Thanks.- yeah I am non-white, and I agree with you about privilege back home vs here. Racism does not shock me, from my own personal experience. It just disappoints me more than anything. But Japan is changing, ever so slowly. They are primarily a risk-adverse country, they stick with what they know and what they are comfortable with. They very rarely like getting their feet in something new. Japanese can be very stubborn too. They stick to their principles, even if it ends up costing them.

People have said this country would be going under for decades, but the Japanese still seem to be hanging on by the final notches on their fingernails. Though I can agree with your sentiments, rather than criticizing them, I have to kind of admire their bushido-grade persistence to stay afloat. In my opinion with all the soothsaying circling the media and politics, Japan is going to change the way it wants; stick along for the ride long enough and you might be first in line for new things to come.

All of those adds to my frustrations, as at the end of the day, just wanted to get my dick wet. But my only option are chinese obaasans, or nampa at bars, which I have better luck at.

Or Neo Flamingo. (Same quality girls you might nanpa! You need to speak Japanese really well though and gotta drag your butt to Kawasaki.)
Or Jan Jan. (Japanese obaa-sans. English isn't required as much as a vivid imagination of your favorite JAV.)
Or Golden King Sugamo. (If you win the crapshoot to not be discriminated against.)
Many pink salons in Osaka are open to foreigners, too.

There's still tons of options, so I would say have more choices than you realize.

 

[CharlieSimms]

There's video out there of Debito haranguing an adult establishment for refusing him entry - and the second he produces his Japanese passport, the doorman is like, "Oh, you're a citizen, very sorry, please come in!"

Of course Debito made flustered excuses and slunk away....

yah, I think I remember that one. I seem to recall it was a Philippine pub tho. And he was especially baffled by the Japanese only policy when the staff itself was not Japanese. Or some such. I sometimes do wonder who on TAG is Debito. Maybe only TAG Boss knows. Nazonazo.

 

[Sudsy]

I sometimes do wonder who on TAG is Debito.

Honestly, I don't think anyone here is miserable or confrontational enough to be him.

 

[MikeH]

Life is just easier when you accept that there are people who can live peacefully that don't want to be involved with you.

That is the true source of happier life. Also I think the word racist is thrown around way too easily nowadays. Not everyone who treats me bad is a racist, he might just be a normal conventional asshole.

 

[MikeH]

Except it is not what "I read from the internet", it is the words of an actual practicing lawyer I know in Japan.

I think you need to get a better lawyer. I communicate with Japanese lawyers pretty much in weekly basis and never has any of them even hinted we should avoid taking any actions because "the law doesn't favour you".

 

[Sudsy]

Then again, the legal system does not favour foreigners at all

Except it is not what "I read from the internet", it is the words of an actual practicing lawyer I know in Japan.

As written, your lawyer acquaintance is correct - the law does not favour foreign residents. The law also doesn't discriminate against foreign residents other than a few instances where rights or abilities to hold certain offices require citizenship.

There is, of course, immigration law which by its nature applies almost entirely to foreign residents, but this isn't particularly onerous in Japan when compared to other countries.

SInce you seem to believe the system is discriminatory, you may want to ask this lawyer you know to point out specific examples of the law discriminating against foreign residents.

There are occasional instances where a judge may let their personal biases show through, but these are surprisingly rare - and generally overturned in a higher court, which is why most judges are careful not to let their biases show through in the first case.

The only thing working against foreign residents for the most part is language barrier and a lack of understanding as to how the legal system works.

 

[magicmodelol]

As written, your lawyer acquaintance is correct - the law does not favour foreign residents. The law also doesn't discriminate against foreign residents other than a few instances where rights or abilities to hold certain offices require citizenship.

There is, of course, immigration law which by its nature applies almost entirely to foreign residents, but this isn't particularly onerous in Japan when compared to other countries.

SInce you seem to believe the system is discriminatory, you may want to ask this lawyer you know to point out specific examples of the law discriminating against foreign residents.

There are occasional instances where a judge may let their personal biases show through, but these are surprisingly rare - and generally overturned in a higher court, which is why most judges are careful not to let their biases show through in the first case.

The only thing working against foreign residents for the most part is language barrier and a lack of understanding as to how the legal system works.

I did not even make the claim that Japanese law is discriminatory, those are your words. I just said it does not favour foreigners, as this is what the lawyer correctly told me. What is clearly discriminatory, is these "Japanese only" establishments.

 

[MikeH]

I just said it does not favour foreigners, as this is what the lawyer correctly told me. What is clearly discriminatory, is these "Japanese only" establishments.

If your lawyer thinks law is supposed to favour one group over another then I would not walk but run.

Private businesses are allowed to select their customers, if that bothers you then you could open a place that is "foreigners only", the laws will not stop you.

 

[magicmodelol]

If your lawyer thinks law is supposed to favour one group over another then I would not walk but run.

Private businesses are allowed to select their customers, if that bothers you then you could open a place that is "foreigners only", the laws will not stop you.

Let me make this clear to you: Discrimination bothers me, yes. No matter how much you attempt to dress it up, it is discrimination. I am sure they "selected" customers in white neighbourhoods in 50s America too.

The entire pretence is that foreigners are unclean and carry diseases. Give it a rest and stop defending the indefensible.

 

[requiemmorrow]

Hmm...

The entire pretence is that foreigners are unclean and carry diseases. Give it a rest and stop defending the indefensible.

And well...

just wanted to get my dick wet.

Think about the industry you are complaining about:
This is not a restaurant; if it was I can share your concerns.
This is not a government office; if it was I would be equally be as concerned as you. I am sure @MikeH would be, too.

This is a sex shop. You are demanding a woman to utilize her orifices to please you. There are girls who don't like our smells, our dick sizes, and our cultural insensitivities.
If she finds it unpleasant, she can quit. If she quits, her employers lose a fuckton of money. There is a lot more to this story than you think.

Let me rephrase what I said earlier:
Be kind and happy even if they hate you. Because it is a lot more fun to fuck an open mouth than wiggle it around a closed one.

 

[jatriami]

Hmm...



And well...



Think about the industry you are complaining about:
This is not a restaurant; if it was I can share your concerns.
This is not a government office; if it was I would be equally be as concerned as you. I am sure @MikeH would be, too.

This is a sex shop. You are demanding a woman to utilize her orifices to please you. There are girls who don't like our smells, our dick sizes, and our cultural insensitivities.
If she finds it unpleasant, she can quit. If she quits, her employers lose a fuckton of money. There is a lot more to this story than you think.

Let me rephrase what I said earlier:
Be kind and happy even if they hate you. Because it is a lot more fun to fuck an open mouth than wiggle it around a closed one.

I agree with you that the girl's choice should be respected as she is actually providing the service.

However, what seems often the case is that foreigners are usually refused on the shop level, either because the shop owners don't like foreigners or because they are afraid that their other Japanese customers would complain if they saw foreigners. The first case is just obvious bald-faced discrimination. The second economic argument that the shop would lose business unless they completely refused foreigners seems reasonable, but notice how this could essentially be applied to justify any form of discrimination. You could say allowing blacks at lunch counters in the 1950s South was bad for business, and it would probably have been true and also quite discriminatory.

Of course, as an individual business owner, you could say you reluctantly pursue discriminatory practices out of pragmatism, but it doesn't take away from the overarching moral argument that discrimination is bad. This is the kind of thing that should be banned on the level of law though because you can't really depend on businesses to naturally want to do it for themselves.

 

[requiemmorrow]

I agree with you that the girl's choice should be respected as she is actually providing the service.

However, what seems often the case is that foreigners are usually refused on the shop level, either because the shop owners don't like foreigners or because they are afraid that their other Japanese customers would complain if they saw foreigners. The first case is just obvious bald-faced discrimination. The second economic argument that the shop would lose business unless they completely refused foreigners seems reasonable, but notice how this could essentially be applied to justify any form of discrimination. You could say allowing blacks at lunch counters in the 1950s South was bad for business, and it would probably have been true and also quite discriminatory.

Of course, as an individual business owner, you could say you reluctantly pursue discriminatory practices out of pragmatism, but it doesn't take away from the overarching moral argument that discrimination is bad. This is the kind of thing that should be banned on the level of law though because you can't really depend on businesses to naturally want to do it for themselves.

Understood...and we need to go back to my point about sexual preferences. Discrimination is bad, and so is the impracticality of creating a business to make money where your own employees will refuse to comply with the service because the conditions aren't acceptable for them.

A couple of years ago I went to pink salon in Shiga and emptied a massive load in the oral cavity of an unsuspecting gyaru. It was far more than she anticipated and she was visibly pissed. I apologized for feeling so good and walked out very much refreshed with an awkward, jarring feeling of regret that I couldn't cum less for her.

After that one load, she decided to stop servicing ALL foreigners. The tencho told me it was literally my fault. From that point on it was Japanese guys only. It was her fucking decision, and as stupid as I think it was, I have to try and see things from her end (ugh), because this is not as cut and dry as my folks sitting at lunch counters: At the end of the 50 minute session, they are not jizzing in the chef's mouth.

 

[MikeH]

Let me make this clear to you: Discrimination bothers me, yes. No matter how much you attempt to dress it up, it is discrimination.

Dude, you are getting so agitated that you are getting your own message all tangled up. I was talking about the law being on your side and you are now talking about not getting your dick wet in the first shop you want to enter. The law says private businesses can select their customer, so you can prohibit whatever you want.

Is it discrimination? Hell yeah. Does it bother me? Not that much, I will just take my monies to someone willing to take it. Can I change it? Well, let's start with world peace and then come back to this.

What I am saying this is not a hill you want to die on. Do you know what happens when you get angry because a p4p shop doesn't let you in or because some random dude in an anonymous internet board picks on you? Yeah, what happens is you feel miserable while everyone else continues their lives as before. No matter how bad you feel the shop won't let you in nor the guy will stop picking on your logic mistakes.

If you continue you can become the Debito of TAG and will have four loyal anonymous dudes cheering you on on your hopeless crusade. Meanwhile the rest of us continue to share information on the places they let us in and enjoy life as best as we can.