Crabs In A Barrel

[GoldenDalton]

There are a lot of successful men on here, particularly in the area of romance. The thread on friendship got me thinking.

The biggest problem in my life right now is being abandoned by my old friends. I'm talking people I've known since sixth grade. The hatred they've developed for me is just surreal.

My best friend doesn't have a degree. He doesn't even have a high school diploma. He doesn't work. He married a woman in her early 40s and lives off of her, even though she was almost twelve years older when they married. With massive fertility treatments they had a child, though the child had developmental problems.

This friend knows I've done p4p, and he has gone out of his way to let me know he dissaproves. He's a hardcore male feminist and a few months ago he sent me an email calling me a rapist and a monster, just because I was going on dates with two girls around the same time. We were in the early stages do there was no commitment. When I told him women do that all the time he freaked. And then when I befriended Nozomi Sasaki he went apeshit, even though ill never be in her league.

Sucks that I can't be supported by people I've supported for years. I bailed this guy out of jail so many times, and this is the result. That seems to be the hardest thing about success- the crabs in a barrel mentality and social isolation.

Anyone experienced this? Any thoughts on this topic?

 

[Panda989]

i may not be super successful, but i have been lucky with this. 99% of my friends have no clue, and even if they did wouldn't care. about 1% however, i try to avoid as they judge, yes they are very religious, and have lived very sheltered lives, but the people that cause the most trouble i have managed to cut out of my life. when they owe me money, they don't call anymore, and i choose to keep it that way.

one of them got into it with me one day and i made it clear that "you're not moses, jesus, or god, when you are one of them you can judge me all you want, until then shut the fuck off." solved it right there for me, but YMMV.

most of my friends who dont do as well as i do financially take small advantage at times, like they dont fight with me over a check, but they could care less that i do well for myself, its not a race to them, even when 50 bucks one way or another can mean not eating for a few days or being able to pay the bills, they dont ask for a dime from me, even though they know i would help them.

 

[GoldenDalton]

i may not be super successful, but i have been lucky with this. 99% of my friends have no clue, and even if they did wouldn't care. about 1% however, i try to avoid as they judge, yes they are very religious, and have lived very sheltered lives, but the people that cause the most trouble i have managed to cut out of my life. when they owe me money, they don't call anymore, and i choose to keep it that way.

one of them got into it with me one day and i made it clear that "you're not moses, jesus, or god, when you are one of them you can judge me all you want, until then shut the fuck off." solved it right there for me, but YMMV.

most of my friends who dont do as well as i do financially take small advantage at times, like they dont fight with me over a check, but they could care less that i do well for myself, its not a race to them, even when 50 bucks one way or another can mean not eating for a few days or being able to pay the bills, they dont ask for a dime from me, even though they know i would help them.

Sound like you are handling the social life pretty well. I have a lot of radical leftist friends who think p4p is rape and assume every provider is trafficked out of some rural village against her will.

 

[Panda989]

well we all have douchebags in our lives, best part is that you dont have to give a fuck what they say.

I have met some wonderful, confident, amazing women over the years who all have different reasons for their chosen profession.

would i go for the ottom of the barrel? no i wouldnt, as even i would rather go for a women who wants to be doing this, as opposed to being forced, which i cant rule out in every country i go to.

there are a small number and i mean very small number of guys who have any clue what i do with my "me" time, and they dont give a shit, they just want to hear some of the stories. Its the cone of silence with that crowd though.

 

[GoldenDalton]

well we all have douchebags in our lives, best part is that you dont have to give a fuck what they say.

I have met some wonderful, confident, amazing women over the years who all have different reasons for their chosen profession.

would i go for the ottom of the barrel? no i wouldnt, as even i would rather go for a women who wants to be doing this, as opposed to being forced, which i cant rule out in every country i go to.

there are a small number and i mean very small number of guys who have any clue what i do with my "me" time, and they dont give a shit, they just want to hear some of the stories. Its the cone of silence with that crowd though.

Good advice.

 

[User#3673]

Some of my friends know and some don`t. I tell the ones I think will understand. Some though are totally against P4P. I think Amsterdam and Germany will eventually be the future models of P4P in the world. But for now we have what we have.

 

[GoldenDalton]

Some of my friends know and some don`t. I tell the ones I think will understand. Some though are totally against P4P. I think Amsterdam and Germany will eventually be the future models of P4P in the world. But for now we have what we have.

What the hell could these guys' problem with p4p really be? Are they mad they can't afford it? Or is it some deeper psychological issue?

 

[Hamerare]

What the hell could these guys' problem with p4p really be? Are they mad they can't afford it? Or is it some deeper psychological issue?

They think they are too good for it and that only losers pay for sex. If only they knew what they was missing

As a monger, I believe u have to behave like some of our gay bros. Keep it in the closet. Most dudes will think we r scum, even good m8s

 

[Solong]

Sound like you are handling the social life pretty well. I have a lot of radical leftist friends who think p4p is rape and assume every provider is trafficked out of some rural village against her will.

Good point. The feminist anti-male agenda loves to twist reality and where women blame men for even their own actions. MOST women are into prostitution of their own free will and PERSONAL GAIN. If anything, many are very materialistic women that abuse men.

The feminist game has always been to create FAKE victimization, so they can gain sympathy and special privileges at the expense of men. Claiming to be victims out one side of the mouth (despite evidence to the contrary) and applauding abusing and taking advantage of men out the other side. And there is this long line of SIMPs and beta males that have been conned by them.

 

[GoldenDalton]

Good point. The feminist anti-male agenda loves to twist reality and where women blame men for even their own actions. MOST women are into prostitution of their own free will and PERSONAL GAIN. If anything, many are very materialistic women that abuse men.

The feminist game has always been to create FAKE victimization, so they can gain sympathy and special privileges at the expense of men. Claiming to be victims out one side of the mouth (despite evidence to the contrary) and applauding abusing and taking advantage of men out the other side. And there is this long line of SIMPs and beta males that have been conned by them.

Damn if that isn't the truth. I really envy you guys living 24/7 in Japan. Yes the chicks are mercenary and there is racism but you never have to deal with the male feminists. These US manginas are coming at me big time. I put a picture up of me and some Venezuelan girls(non p4p) on facebook recently and they were itching to get at me. We don't have to put up with shitty fat Anglo women if we have some money lol. And I think that's what they hate.


I could be wrong, but having people turn on me like this; I've never experienced that before.

 

[GoldenDalton]

They think they are too good for it and that only losers pay for sex. If only they knew what they was missing

As a monger, I believe u have to behave like some of our gay bros. Keep it in the closet. Most dudes will think we r scum, even good m8s

True that. They have it in their heads that these girls were taken at gunpoint from some rural village in Thailand. There's no convincing them otherwise.

And you can't just say, " you are just saying that because you can't afford it."

But all in all it's still a pretty good life. I love giving pretty girls my time, money, and affection. And I really do feel like they deserve it. Better than begging some American obese girl to just look at me lol.

And they don't even know. I go to Italy Spain, Venezuela, Columbia, Paraguay for my work and it blows my mind how fit the people are. We Americans have to be the fattest folks on the planet lmao.

 

[meiji]

I definitely understand the social isolation perspective. I'm not particularly afraid of being judged for what I do, but on the other hand I don't want it to change the relationships I have with friends and family. I've told a handful of very good friends, who aside from occasionally giving me some good natured shit about it, don't really care. My decision to not tell more people basically comes down to "it's none of their business". I don't ask them about their sex lives, and they don't ask me about mine.

As far as the morality of it all, I'm of two minds. Yes, there are women sold into sexual slavery, and yes, a large number of pros out there are doing so out of economic necessity, and then there are a number of women that go to Japan, or to America, or wherever because they had a friend that told them its a great way to make a ton of money quickly -- this is actually more of a spectrum than anything, because how do you define economic necessity? That makes at least 3 general classes of women crossing borders for the purposes of providing sexual services, but many anti-prostitution types collapse all three of those classes into on one, where all women doing this are doing it against their will. It's certainly to their benefit to blur these difficult distinctions, because it makes their message simpler and raises the number of affected women -- the number of women sold into sexual slavery is pretty small, after all, so why not throw in all the women that cross borders for the purposes of prostitution?

But I've known a number of smart Asian women that go into the business because despite how their culture treats them, as a pro they often get to choose their customers, choose their prices, and then they have money to choose their own path in later life. I've seen a Korean girl a number of times in the States that has done the equivalent of market research on me to ask whether taking English as a Second Language classes would be worth it to improve her customer base (I think I told her no, because I like a woman with an accent . That doesn't sound to me like someone who is forced to do her job.

When we look at the big flows of sex workers, there's really two things in play here, and neither of them are "men that want to fuck hot, willing women" -- that's a constant that will never go away. One of them is gender inequality, especially in Asia where the family unit is more important than the individual. Men have been the workers, and women have been the breeders and caretakers. When there's no work to be had, women have been sold or otherwise told that they have to contribute. If women got the same education and had the same opportunity as men, this would be less of an issue. The bigger issue is economic inequality. And I'm not just talking about Westerners being able to find cheap sex in Thailand because the dollar and the Euro are worth so much more in Bangkok, although that's a part of it.

Most girls working in Bangkok aren't from that area, and you could say the same about most sex tourist destinations -- the FKKs in Germany don't have a lot of Germans working there. They come from rural or other economically depressed areas, where there are no jobs, to the city where there are jobs (in the brothels anyway). But why are there no jobs at home? Most of those rural places lost the economic battle against more productive developed countries. With globalization, its strangely cheaper to grow, harvest, and ship grain across the world than it is to grow it in a rural area of the same country looking to consume it. So you end up with not enough income for the family, and women coming down from the north in Thailand and Laos to work in BKK (or insert your sex tourism location here).

I'm not trying to argue the merits of globalization here, just the reality. Many might say either 'hey, we won and they lost' or 'the cheaper the pussy the better', and you are welcome to your opinion. As I've hinted to above, I certainly believe that seeing indie providers or girls working for well-known agencies is in many ways helping those women to gain more independence in their lives, not less. My point in the economic discourse above is that globalization is a giant factor in the world, much larger than the morality of men who want sex or even gender inequality, but for all the yelling about banning prostitution and punishing traffickers from the morality police, you never hear reducing economic inequality as a solution from them.

This is something I feel pretty passionate about (obviously), and that's why it's tough to even bring this up with family and friends. Whenever there's been a discussion about prostitution or trafficking, I've found the best policy is just to shrug and say 'I dunno', aside from maybe hinting I think prostitution should be decriminalized for the protection of women. It would be far too easy to go down a path where others may wonder where I obtained my special knowledge of this world.

 

[Panda989]

i am happy to say that i agree, it isn't their business, and i am also happy to say i am glad conversations about global sex trafficking don't come up at my family's dinner table. I would agree though, anyone that labels the sex trade with a broad brush is doing with to justify their own position, and has little if any real understanding of the actualities of the trade. I too have been asked (mainly by independents) about ways to improve business, and it was a fun chat, and even a way to connect, i think i even got som free time as thanks for the banter.

Every punter has a choice, and some choose different ends of the barrel, as look as some one demands, someone will supply. I will say this though, given the right circumstances, i bet even the most opposed man or women can and will sell their ass.

 

[GoldenDalton]

I definitely understand the social isolation perspective. I'm not particularly afraid of being judged for what I do, but on the other hand I don't want it to change the relationships I have with friends and family. I've told a handful of very good friends, who aside from occasionally giving me some good natured shit about it, don't really care. My decision to not tell more people basically comes down to "it's none of their business". I don't ask them about their sex lives, and they don't ask me about mine.

As far as the morality of it all, I'm of two minds. Yes, there are women sold into sexual slavery, and yes, a large number of pros out there are doing so out of economic necessity, and then there are a number of women that go to Japan, or to America, or wherever because they had a friend that told them its a great way to make a ton of money quickly -- this is actually more of a spectrum than anything, because how do you define economic necessity? That makes at least 3 general classes of women crossing borders for the purposes of providing sexual services, but many anti-prostitution types collapse all three of those classes into on one, where all women doing this are doing it against their will. It's certainly to their benefit to blur these difficult distinctions, because it makes their message simpler and raises the number of affected women -- the number of women sold into sexual slavery is pretty small, after all, so why not throw in all the women that cross borders for the purposes of prostitution?

But I've known a number of smart Asian women that go into the business because despite how their culture treats them, as a pro they often get to choose their customers, choose their prices, and then they have money to choose their own path in later life. I've seen a Korean girl a number of times in the States that has done the equivalent of market research on me to ask whether taking English as a Second Language classes would be worth it to improve her customer base (I think I told her no, because I like a woman with an accent . That doesn't sound to me like someone who is forced to do her job.

When we look at the big flows of sex workers, there's really two things in play here, and neither of them are "men that want to fuck hot, willing women" -- that's a constant that will never go away. One of them is gender inequality, especially in Asia where the family unit is more important than the individual. Men have been the workers, and women have been the breeders and caretakers. When there's no work to be had, women have been sold or otherwise told that they have to contribute. If women got the same education and had the same opportunity as men, this would be less of an issue. The bigger issue is economic inequality. And I'm not just talking about Westerners being able to find cheap sex in Thailand because the dollar and the Euro are worth so much more in Bangkok, although that's a part of it.

Most girls working in Bangkok aren't from that area, and you could say the same about most sex tourist destinations -- the FKKs in Germany don't have a lot of Germans working there. They come from rural or other economically depressed areas, where there are no jobs, to the city where there are jobs (in the brothels anyway). But why are there no jobs at home? Most of those rural places lost the economic battle against more productive developed countries. With globalization, its strangely cheaper to grow, harvest, and ship grain across the world than it is to grow it in a rural area of the same country looking to consume it. So you end up with not enough income for the family, and women coming down from the north in Thailand and Laos to work in BKK (or insert your sex tourism location here).

I'm not trying to argue the merits of globalization here, just the reality. Many might say either 'hey, we won and they lost' or 'the cheaper the pussy the better', and you are welcome to your opinion. As I've hinted to above, I certainly believe that seeing indie providers or girls working for well-known agencies is in many ways helping those women to gain more independence in their lives, not less. My point in the economic discourse above is that globalization is a giant factor in the world, much larger than the morality of men who want sex or even gender inequality, but for all the yelling about banning prostitution and punishing traffickers from the morality police, you never hear reducing economic inequality as a solution from them.

This is something I feel pretty passionate about (obviously), and that's why it's tough to even bring this up with family and friends. Whenever there's been a discussion about prostitution or trafficking, I've found the best policy is just to shrug and say 'I dunno', aside from maybe hinting I think prostitution should be decriminalized for the protection of women. It would be far too easy to go down a path where others may wonder where I obtained my special knowledge of this world.

That's one of the best takes on this issue I've ever heard.

There is a huge chasm between a 12 year old third world girl forced into it, and a pretty, priveleged, Japanese girl at a top- notch university, who wants nee Gucci constantly. I wish they could see that.

I'd never support any kind of coercion, though. And that goes for folks doing it out of desperation. And I think as buyers we know the difference. On this forum it seems like guys are shelling out big bucks, not picking up steetwalkers in ghettos.

 

[Solong]

@meiji

I respectfully disagree about "economic necessity".

A woman doesn't have to choose prostitution because they are poor. There are many other forms of work.

Those women are making a conscious decision to attempt to exploit men for money. They see selling themselves as easy money, and go for it. Sex is an easy way to a good life for many women. Greed, plain and simple.

The difference in economies between countries isn't a conspiracy by men against women, but well... Economics. That a woman travels to another country to make MORE money for herself is indicative of her greed.

We shouldn't sugar coat, but call it what is and be clear about what women are doing. The majority of women in prostitution are using sex to get money, due to GREED and attempting to expoit the natural sexual urges of men.

Since the 1960s, women in
many industrialized countries have had numerous advantages over men. That is using cultural chivalry, affirmative action, court bias, and their traditional sexual advantages to obtain special privileges that men don't have.

To hide their actions and to not be held accountable for exploiting and abusing men for money and personal gain, many women will throw up flimsy excuses. But let's be clear about these bad excuses. A gangster holding a gun or knife to someone's head, isn't the same as materialistic and greedy women trying to get paid. Nothing wrong with capitalism, but let's call a spade, a spade. Especially with the extremely high prices in Tokyo, and where many female prostitutes make more in 1 day, than many hard working men and women make in 1 week or 1 month. Feeling sorry for such women or buying into their excuses, is like feeling sorry for drug dealers getting rich from selling dope.

 

[KeithOP]

Maybe you don't intend to come off this way, but the way you're using "greed" and making comparisons to drug dealers is coming off like you still have that internalized Judeo-Christian complex about women making money off of sex.

If you don't patronize their services, that's fine, but you don't have to swallow the Christian propaganda and treat them like they're subhuman. Do you live some sort of monastic existence where you never do anything for money?

In fact, if a woman is working of her own free will and no one's being hurt or negatively affected, then what's it matter what she does with what she earns? Whether she's using the money to pay the rent or get a Gucci purse, how is that anyone's business but her own?

 

[Solong]

@KeithOP

I'm totally not a Christian or religious. The comparison of prostitutes and drug dealers is valid in the sense, that they are supplying an addiction. Yes, sex is very natural, but when it's sold then it has become a commodity or product for money like drugs. And like drug dealers, many prostitutes are all about getting paid. They are not doing you any favors, otherwise, they would have sex for free and just for pleasure.

Also, like drug dealers, prostitutes will tell you every excuse imaginable to justify exploiting people and their greed for money.

Unfortunately, due to feminist indoctrination, many men have been taught not to question women, to assume women are always right, or that women are all innocent fragile flowers. This mindset allows women to deceive, exploit, be arrogant, and well...(can't think of a better term) greedy for money.

My point isn't about what prostitutes or drug dealers spend their money on, but to reply to the argument that prostitutes have sex because of economic necessity. That same argument is given by drug dealers who say they grew up poor, but most people don't accept this and do argue that they could have done something else.

A woman having sex for money is NOT necessary, except for the rarest and most extreme of cases. Most prostitutes have sex for money of their own free will. I just think that sugar coating it isn't necessary. I know many guys prefer the white knight cinderella fantasy or girlfriend experience to make it more bearable, but some guys like to address the reality of the situation. It's also my belief that when men do this, they have better choices.

Because if sex is a product worth X, then you now can calculate how to get the best return on investment (ROI). And a man has the mindset to treat women, as they treat him.

 

[GoldenDalton]

From my perspective, I don't really get the whole " paying for it" shame. Yes I enjoy and take advantage of " civilian" dates when work allows, but no woman truly likes " me for me." We all have to have something to bring to the table: looks, money, personality, status. If these women weren't beautiful, we'd not be half as interested. We like beauty, they like resources. Makes perfect sense to me. And for what you get it can often be worth the money.

In my opinion there's little that's shameful about p4p. I work hard. As a result of my work ethic and intellect I have funds. I use those funds to spend time with an absolute 10. I have that 10 because I'm a success. And so is she, since men are willing to pay big bucks to be with her. It's not like everyone can afford to blow 120,000 yen on a few nights with a female who looks like a model.

These are just my thoughts. This isn't directed at anyone or any post, though. I was reading another blog when this popped into my mind so I decided to post it here and see what other guys thought.

 

[Keiji]

the crabs in a barrel mentality and social isolation.

As a non native English speaker I have trouble to picture this.

 

[Keiji]

YMMV.

What is this?

 

[GoldenDalton]

As a non native English speaker I have trouble to picture this.

Imagine that there is a barrel full of crabs. The crabs are stuck in a tight, uncomfortable place. Each crab could climb out on its own, but they remain in the barrel because any time a crab makes it near the top, another crab pulls him back down.

Basically, it's jealousy over the success of others and a desire to see them ruined rather than taking risks and improving one's own self.

 

[GoldenDalton]

What is this?

" Your mileage may very."

Basically- Your experience may be different.

 

[k1234k]

I'm sorry to hear that people you thought of as a good friends have up and bailed on you.

It really bothers me that they view your partaking of p4p so severely, especially since relatively speaking, there are many other types of exploitation that are widespread and have great negative impact in society. For example, I would guess worldwide that the number of people exploited for cheap labor in sweatshops and factories is hugely greater than the number of women who become sexual slaves.

I'm not downplaying the severity of the evils of the illegal sex trade, but those people calling you a 'rapist' need a reality check. Plus, you could legitimately call them hypocrites in regards to their abhorrence for exploitation with one glance of the brand of shoes they wear, the smartphone they carry, or a quick check of the manufacturers tag in their t-shirt.

Is there gender exploitation? You betcha, and the strongest component is actually against men. I remember basking in the afterglow of some outstanding p4p action, looking at the beautiful woman next to me and smiling. I was smiling about the power she, and any attractive woman for that matter, could have over me. How I and many other men throughout all time have paid huge sums of money, risked public shaming, disease, arrest, and even jeopardized our own livelihoods time and time again. All this for ultimately, 8 seconds of messy involuntary muscle spasms that any man could elicit himself for free in the safety of his own house.

The plain fact is that almost every heterosexual man can be coaxed to lie, cheat and steal for ANY prospect of pussy. Women have that power over men, and can exploit men for their weakness time and time again, and the men are willing participants in the madness.

So how can we be 'responsible' mongers? It's the same as being a responsible consumer: buy your goods from reputable dealers, and spend some time talking to the provider, too.

I'll never go to a p4p shop that has negative reviews related to the girl's unhappiness with her job, because if there is a chance that some form of exploitation is going on, it's probably more likely happening there, instead of at a place with girls happy to be of service.

If I was a victim of Judeo-Christian dogma, I'd probably make myself feel guilty for p4p. But I am an atheist and a libertarian, so I say 'Sweetie-that felt fantastic! I'll gladly see you again in a couple of weeks! Here's a tip, and long live capitalism!'

 

[GoldenDalton]

I'm sorry to hear that people you thought of as a good friends have up and bailed on you.

It really bothers me that they view your partaking of p4p so severely, especially since relatively speaking, there are many other types of exploitation that are widespread and have great negative impact in society. For example, I would guess worldwide that the number of people exploited for cheap labor in sweatshops and factories is hugely greater than the number of women who become sexual slaves.

I'm not downplaying the severity of the evils of the illegal sex trade, but those people calling you a 'rapist' need a reality check. Plus, you could legitimately call them hypocrites in regards to their abhorrence for exploitation with one glance of the brand of shoes they wear, the smartphone they carry, or a quick check of the manufacturers tag in their t-shirt.

Is there gender exploitation? You betcha, and the strongest component is actually against men. I remember basking in the afterglow of some outstanding p4p action, looking at the beautiful woman next to me and smiling. I was smiling about the power she, and any attractive woman for that matter, could have over me. How I and many other men throughout all time have paid huge sums of money, risked public shaming, disease, arrest, and even jeopardized our own livelihoods time and time again. All this for ultimately, 8 seconds of messy involuntary muscle spasms that any man could elicit himself for free in the safety of his own house.

The plain fact is that almost every heterosexual man can be coaxed to lie, cheat and steal for ANY prospect of pussy. Women have that power over men, and can exploit men for their weakness time and time again, and the men are willing participants in the madness.

So how can we be 'responsible' mongers? It's the same as being a responsible consumer: buy your goods from reputable dealers, and spend some time talking to the provider, too.

I'll never go to a p4p shop that has negative reviews related to the girl's
unhappiness with her job, because if there is a chance that some form of exploitation is going on, it's probably more likely happening there, instead of at a place with girls happy to be of service.

If I was a victim of Judeo-Christian dogma, I'd probably make myself feel guilty for p4p. But I am an atheist and a libertarian, so I say 'Sweetie-that felt fantastic! I'll gladly see you again in a couple of weeks! Here's a tip, and long live capitalism!'

I really like bringing in the discussion of sweatshops and third world labor into it, as it does reveal a lot of hypocrisy.

For some reason my old " friends" would just dismiss your argument about women's sexual power. I don't understand how they can do that. My friend would just say , "there are much more important things in life than sex."
These men are totally sexually repressed and seen to have no desire to get our of it.

P4P participation I can keep to myself. The thing I can't stand are the damn feminist status updates and bs like that. My " friend" recently got his panties in a bunch because I refused to denounce my " privelege." It evidently pains him that the shitty decisions he's made have come back to bite him in the ass and now he's trying to take it out on me.

I'm not saying all male feminists are like this, but in my social circle, these make feminists are abject losers who are repressed as hell. And for some reason just can't let a dude be.

I know it sounds like I'm the asshole here because I'm name calling, but you'll just have to trust me that I put up with a ton of bs for a couple of years before it got to this point.

Anyway sorry for the confessional lol.

 

[Panda989]

What is this?

Your mileage may vary