Do You Guys Mention That You Are Expecting Intimacy When You Are Talking To A Potential Sugar Bb

[Wwanderer]

Do you turn down arrangements where sex is not going to happen?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes after a few sexless dates, sometimes not after even years of platonic dating, sometimes the definition of sex or lack thereof varies for me from one relationship to another, sometimes I'd have to think twice to even recall if there was sex involved if it is someone I was seeing years ago. It all depends on her and me and our interaction and their circumstances etc. Basically ever sugar arrangement is separate and distinct from the others, and I try (and largely succeed I think) in dealing with each one as though it were my first or only one. Spontaneously and in the moment, as they say...without patterns, rules, plans, systems etc. Just reactions and impulses specific to each case. Put more simply, I just do whatever I want to do or whatever feels right to me in each situation.

I realize that this attitude or style probably seems really weird and alien, maybe almost incomprehensible, to those whose interactions with women are so deliberate, systematic, learned, controlled by rules, rely on "tools" such as escalation ladders etc. However, I'd suggest giving it a try. It seems to me much more interesting and enjoyable...more unpredictable and more exciting.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Probably a good idea to also try to just meet women normally, like online / at bars / etc and build a social circle. That way you don't have to worry if it's a waste of your money or not. Can try both out and see which you like

Excellent advice, imo. Try out both and p4p and anything else that you can.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Like almost everything that has to do with women... it depends on the girl ...

Precisely so...and on you and on your interaction with the girl, right?

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

Spontaneously and in the moment, as they say...without patterns, rules, plans, systems etc. Just reactions and impulses specific to each case. Put more simply, I just do whatever I want to do or whatever feels right to me in each situation.

I realize that this attitude or style probably seems really weird and alien, maybe almost incomprehensible, to those whose interactions with women are so deliberate, systematic, learned, controlled by rules, rely on "tools" such as escalation ladders etc. However, I'd suggest giving it a try. It seems to me much more interesting and enjoyable...more unpredictable and more exciting.

Ah now you've brought pickup into this conversation again (thought you liked keeping them separate?). Once again we are talking about "no technique" which is the end point of the path of pickup. I too evaluate each woman totally individually without rules or system. I suspect we interact with women in a way that's more similar than you perhaps imagine. Much like a painter learns the rules (which colors go with which, how to mix them, spacing on the canvas) in order to be able to break them, so too with pickup.

 

[Wwanderer]

So, you are going to pay a sugar-baby around 1,500 dollars (150,000 yen) for 3 dates (or whatever) to her for FREE and the privilege of her rejecting you? Or, wasting your time, when it could have been spent on someone else, on let's say 3 dinner dates totally at your expense?

So, what are you paying approximately for these sugar-baby dinner dates? And around how many hours per date?

I understand better of where you are coming from. However, no matter how stunning the woman is, I personally wouldn't go beyond the 1st date if a "sexual deal" can't or isn't worked out. Because the woman is likely confused or engaging in time wasting or attention-whoring antics.

Even if no sex on the 1st date, the logistics and outline of the sugar relationship is possible to be worked out. And the point of the 1st date is to ask any questions and get a sense of the other person. On at least the 2nd date, especially in a p4p situation, sex should arguably happen if the guy (who's paying) wants it so. 1st date too, unless there is some type of time constraint in effect by either party.

If my concept of sugar dating were along the above lines, namely that the money and sex elements dominate all other aspects of an arrangement/relationship, and that nothing else matters unless the sex/yen ratio is competitive, then the sugar bowl would be of very little interest to me. No doubt I would have tried it (I try most things I can try), but it is unlikely I'd have pursued it much or for long.

Fortunately the sugar world offers a lot more to those open to its complexities, and for me personally, that is exactly why it is so engaging.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

If my concept of sugar dating were along the above lines, namely that the money and sex elements dominate all other aspects of an arrangement/relationship, and that nothing else matters unless the sex/yen ratio is competitive, then the sugar bowl would be of very little interest to me. No doubt I would have tried it (I try most things I can try), but it is unlikely I'd have pursued it much or for long.

Fortunately the sugar world offers a lot more to those open to its complexities, and for me personally, that is exactly why it is so engaging.

-Ww

What does the sugar world offer outside of a way to meet women who want money? Money is the fundamental pretense, therefore it seems inherently MORE constrained than normal forms of dating/friendship

 

[Wwanderer]

Ah now you've brought pickup into this conversation again (thought you liked keeping them separate?).

Did I say that?!
OK, your point on that one.

Once again we are talking about "no technique" which is the end point of the path of pickup. I too evaluate each woman totally individually without rules or system. I suspect we interact with women in a way that's more similar than you perhaps imagine. Much like a painter learns the rules (which colors go with which, how to mix them, spacing on the canvas) in order to be able to break them, so too with pickup.

You've said this before, and it may be true...I have little basis for judging. Certainly what I have seen of PUA material on this site seems to me antithetical or irrelevant to what I'm trying to describe. It sounds more like trying to learn to swim by reading a book about swimming or analyzing the physical properties of liquid water. Like maybe it could help...a little, but just feels a bit misguided to me and ineffective to me.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

What does the sugar world offer outside of a way to meet women who want money? Money is the fundamental pretense, therefore it seems inherently MORE constrained than normal forms of dating/friendship

I'd say it introduces a new dimension which can come into play in all sorts of different ways, and they need not be dominant ones; in that sense the relationship are more complex, or at least different, from conventional ones that don't involve money. You will have a much more interesting and better time in the sugar bowl if neither you nor your partner are so in awe (or worshipful) of money that it looms over everything else. In most conventional forms of dating there is some gift giving at least on special occasions and some doing of favors and some looking out for the other person's well being and some trying to make sure the other person is having fun etc. Why should exchanging a bit of money be any more important than or any different from those aspects of a relationship.

In other words, money need not be the "fundamental pretense" and often is not. (Is "pretense" actually the word you wanted there? I sense autocorrect at work!)

A bit less abstractly and more personally, the role money plays in sugar arrangements I have enjoyed varies widely in its importance and role. I have had sugar arrangements in which the SB and I fight/disagree about the financial arrangement with me pushing her to accept some or more money and she resisting or refusing to take any or too much. It can be a lot more complex and interesting than going into a store and buying something, the image many seem to have in mind.

@Solong often says that it is important to remember that sugar dating is just a professional business transaction like any other; imo, that is exactly backwards. It is critically important not to see it as a commercial transaction at all. The difference is precisely what separates some sugar dating from conventional prostitution, which is a profession.

-Ww

 

[gaijinsan]

I'd say it introduces a new dimension which can come into play in all sorts of different ways, and they need not be dominant ones; in that sense the relationship are more complex, or at least different, from conventional ones that don't involve money.

Ww, would you mind going into any more detail on this point?

I have to admit that my mind was completely blown when you said you've engaged in prolonged arrangements in which there was no sex. From what I gather on here, you are successful, wealthy, highly intelligent, and socially adept. I would guess you have no trouble making and maintaining dynamic, enriching friendships with women. So, with all due respect, why would you pay a woman for a platonic relationship?

Hope these aren't dumb questions. Sugar dating is incredibly fascinating, and I've considered taking a dip myself, but sometimes it seems like an impenetrable mystery.

 

[gaijinsan]

And to be clear, I am not at all disagreeing with the idea of exchanging money directly in the context of a platonic relationship. I strongly believe in your philosophy of (paraphrasing here) "if it exists, I'll try it", but hopefully you can imagine why that concept is a tough one for a n00b.

 

[User#8628]

Ww, would you mind going into any more detail on this point?

I have to admit that my mind was completely blown when you said you've engaged in prolonged arrangements in which there was no sex. From what I gather on here, you are successful, wealthy, highly intelligent, and socially adept. I would guess you have no trouble making and maintaining dynamic, enriching friendships with women. So, with all due respect, why would you pay a woman for a platonic relationship?

Hope these aren't dumb questions. Sugar dating is incredibly fascinating, and I've considered taking a dip myself, but sometimes it seems like an impenetrable mystery.

Maybe because sex is not the main goal for many guys engaging in p4p?
There are quite a few guys for who talking to an escort is more fun than sex.
And especially in Japan hostess bars and paying girls (from deai cafe or otherwise) just to have dinner, karaoke, teatime or take a walk together are very common and popular.

 

[gaijinsan]

Maybe because sex is not the main goal for many guys engaging in p4p?
There are quite a few guys for who talking to an escort is more fun than sex.

I agree with these points and indeed, my best p4p experiences have been on dates where conversation is just as satisfying, or even more so, than sex. So, I totally get what you're saying. I'm just curious why a man who presumably has other outlets for strong platonic relationships with women would introduce money into the equation on a persistent basis.

And again, I'm not criticizing the practice, but I feel there is more to the story about the benefits of that particular flavor of sugar dating. Perhaps it is something I would very much enjoy; I'd just like to know more.

 

[User#8628]

I agree with these points and indeed, my best p4p experiences have been on dates where conversation is just as satisfying, or even more so, than sex. So, I totally get what you're saying. I'm just curious why a man who presumably has other outlets for strong platonic relationships with women would introduce money into the equation on a persistent basis.

And again, I'm not criticizing the practice, but I feel there is more to the story about the benefits of that particular flavor of sugar dating. Perhaps it is something I would very much enjoy; I'd just like to know more.

As far as i know in sugar dating, its mainly unexperienced girls with an interesting reason to try out sugar dating who get money for not (immediately) doing sexual acts.
And you can never have enough platonic relationships of course, as long as they are interesting on other fronts.
Like mentioned before, if you do sugar dating you should just contact the girls that catch your interest and see if you can arrange something with them (with or without sex) that seems interesting, fun and satisfying to you.

 

[apolyon171]

in my case i chose sugar dating because

1) i wont be in Tokyo very long and dont feel like hitting the bars and or clubs by myself. not that i cant but im not sure it would be the best use of my time. besides japanese girls are very different from what im used to back home (from what i have read) so it would take me time to "calibrate myself" in order to pick up here

2) im not super fluent in japanese so it can be a problem when chatting someone up

3) not knowing if you are going to get intimate with the girl can be quite erogenous as well "the thrill of the hunt" kind of thing and to see if you can pull it off is quite rewording in and on itself.

 

[Ches]

I think, with your very short stay in japan SD relationship may not work. It usually varies but more commonly takes more than a month or so to find the right SB with right connection. In Sugar Dating , you gotta find the right chemistry in order to be successful.

In my experience, I have been into seriously A LOT of fail POT date. And I heard from men here that it is same with them. Dipping in sugar lake and striking out.

My suggestion is, given the limited time you have in japan and you definitely seek for FS, then go to p4p directions instead. It is less hassle. If you prefer girl friend experience, I am sure a lot of providers here provide nice GFE.

However, sugar dating can also be successful. Just depends on planning and setting things up. Sugar babies are not hard to deal with. They are usually very easy to talk to and loves having fun. You just have to be on the same page on arrangement. Everything clear, and honestly, that is easier said that done.

 

[Wwanderer]

I will/can reply in more detail later, but I often give people money because 1 - they legitimately need it, 2 - I have it, and 3 - I care about them. In such cases I am not purchasing anything at all from them - not sex, not their time and certainly not their friendship.

I hope that is helpful in terms of explaining...

-Ww

 

[Ches]

Ww, would you mind going into any more detail on this point?

If you wouldn't mind. I'll try to explain in from the point of view of SB and contrast it to the the POV of SD.

Life is more than just sex. Most of the time, too much sex could be boring. Expecially when it is so readily available. But sex coupled with some nice experiences and right chemistry could be mind blowingly satisfying especially when you know and atleast have some care for the person you are doing it with.

For an SB, sugar dating is more than just monetary transactions (If I want to have more money, I'd go into P4P route). It is the experiences. It is the adventure. SB meets and get to know the POT through first date (that is not confined on bedroom) and has the capacity to reject POT is she doesnt like to do it with him. The thrill of meeting a person that you could possibly connect with is awesome. Talking about yourself, who you are and what you do, and learning about the other person's personality sets Sugar Dating apart from conventional P4P.

Sugar dating has provided experiences for me that I could never afford or would be too boring to do alone, while being with a company of an amazing intelligent professional guy who actually cares about my welfare.

With sugar dating, you actually know and care for each other. There is concern. You love being with the person in and out of the bedroom.

Now, from the POV of a sugar daddy, I'm just making assumptions, but I think they spend because they CAN. Sugar babies need/wants money, so sugar daddy gives him not as payment for sex but to help her in her expenses/ for savings. (Remember: sugar babies can do P4P and earn a lot if they want to earn money through that professionally) Sugar Daddies in turn feel a sense of being a good provider (which is innate in men, evolutionary stuffs and all those), and gets to be with a nice company. Sometimes, when you have money at your disposal, it doesn't make you happy anymore. You gotta find ways to make money work for you to make you happy. Giving is one of the best things. When you see people happy through your generosity, consequently, you become happier.

So, sugar daddies are in it not just for sex but for companionship, experiences and actual care for their sugar babies.

 

[Solong]

Maybe because sex is not the main goal for many guys engaging in p4p?
There are quite a few guys for who talking to an escort is more fun than sex.
And especially in Japan hostess bars and paying girls (from deai cafe or otherwise) just to have dinner, karaoke, teatime or take a walk together are very common and popular.

But, there is controversy about guys doing such. Though it can be uncomfortable to bring this out to the surface, we shouldn't avoid the reality of different situations.

1) A guy doesn't need to pay to talk to women

If a guys feels compelled to, it can be that he's highly insecure or very afraid to approach women. Feeling unable to approach women informally, he would then only do so through formal introductions, formal gathering, or by paying.

The guy can also feel that a woman wouldn't ordinarily listen to him and his problems or respond to him in the way that he wishes, so paying a woman is a way of getting the behavior and fantasy that he wants.

2) Male Erectile Dysfunction, Sexual Performance Anxiety, Sexual Dysfunction, & Low Testosterone

These can create massive physical and mental issues in males, in which they seek to disguise or mask in multiple ways by being more "charming", acting "too good", generous with money, etc...

Over the years, I've had numerous sex friends, where I was the "other guy" to sexually satisfy women that were in relationships with sexually problematic or dysfunction guys. This situation is also seen in swinger circles as well.

Had a lady sex-friend last year, who told me about how frustrated she was with her boyfriend. When they met, he was the perfect charming gentleman. He is good looking, good job, seems to understand her, etc... though a bit feminine (her description and she showed me his picture- skinny type guy). Anyway, he treated her like a perfect lady...

However, sex was a massive problem with him. He either didn't want sex or it was over very quickly. She was in a dilemma, because her parents liked him and she had introduced him to all her friends. They all liked him, but she felt that she can't tolerate the sexual situation with him.

It always amazed me, how women put themselves into such situations. Where they act or claim sex isn't important. Then get a guy who can't sexually perform. Then sex becomes or they suddenly realize sex is very important. Often such situations, it's like the woman wanted to control whenever sex happens. They do sex whenever they want, but not when he wants. But a sexually dysfunctional man can mean sex isn't available from him, whenever she wants. She can't control his dysfunction.

She is also very sexually strong, tall, and an athletic build and type female. I would put her sexual score, as above average. So, that's how I came into the picture. The sex-friend.

But what intrigued me about the situation, is how "perfect" she claimed the behavior of her boyfriend was. It appeared he strongly compensated for his sexual inadequacies. And apparently, so do a lot of guys in that situation.

 

[Wwanderer]

I will/can reply in more detail later, but I often give people money because 1 - they legitimately need it, 2 - I have it, and 3 - I care about them. In such cases I am not purchasing anything at all from them - not sex, not their time and certainly not their friendship.

@gaijinsan - Sorry that I did not directly quote or reference the post containing your question

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/thre...-a-potential-sugar-bb.10267/page-2#post-52180

when I gave my "short form" answer above. I was in a hurry, on an unsteady US commuter train and using an iOS device.

Anyway, here a bit more in response:

There is a very strong convention or pattern in most/all of our minds that if A is giving B money, then A is buying something from B...getting something in return. @Solong seems to routinely assume even more, namely that A wouldn't be buying something from B unless A had "no other options" for getting whatever B is selling, as though money should always be the last resort, the most precious resource. But that it an aside, in any case, the standard pattern is not universal. There are exceptions. For example, when parents give their children, even adult children, money, one does not automatically assume that they are buying something from them.

Imo, that is the ideal role of money in sugar dating. The guy is not purchasing sex or anything else from the woman; he is giving it to her because he wants her to have it. And she is not having sex with him for money; she is doing it because she wants to give him pleasure. @Ches explained the nature of this sort of sugar arrangement in her post above so incredibly clearly and well that I won't even try to elaborate on it. But in that sort of arrangement, money is not purchasing anything.

Tbh, things don't always work out that way. Often sugar arrangements are fundamentally commercial or transactional in nature, even though that aspect of the relationship is in stealth mode. But not always.

Anyway, in these murky and complex waters, neither money nor sex is a dominant element of all the things that both people are putting into the relationship. In fact one or both may not be essential.

One way to look at it - No one thinks it is odd if a relationship involves sex but not money; why then is it so difficult to imagine one that involves money but not sex?

Probably this post is no clearer than the one I quote above, but maybe it helps answer your question a little?

There is also a sort of answer in this old post of mine:

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/thre...lity-to-pay-for-dates.10136/page-2#post-48706

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

I will/can reply in more detail later, but I often give people money because 1 - they legitimately need it, 2 - I have it, and 3 - I care about them. In such cases I am not purchasing anything at all from them - not sex, not their time and certainly not their friendship.

I hope that is helpful in terms of explaining...

-Ww

Hey Dad.....I need a new GoPro.....

 

[User#8628]

1) A guy doesn't need to pay to talk to women

A guy doesn't need to pay to have sex with a woman either.

A good conversation can be harder to find than loose sex for some people.

 

[Wwanderer]

Hey Dad.....I need a new GoPro.....

While you are joking (maybe??! ), your jest is relevant in that I do see the sort of situations described in my post (which you quote) as having a sort of parental feeling to them. When I give money to or spend money on my children or my parents (my parents' care, actually), my feelings about it are nothing at all like I was purchasing something from them. Using my money that way feels good/satisfying to me, and a cynic or money worshipper (not that there are any of either on TAG ) could argue that I am actually purchasing those positive feeling. However, that is wrong imo, because my children and parents are not giving me the nice feelings (my parents aren't even aware that I am doing it in fact).

Btw, this is a further attempt to respond to @gaijinsan 's question and blown mind:

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/thre...-a-potential-sugar-bb.10267/page-2#post-52180

Does this make it any clearer?

-Ww

 

[gaijinsan]

While you are joking (maybe??! ), your jest is relevant in that I do see the sort of situations described in my post (which you quote) as having a sort of parental feeling to them. When I give money to or spend money on my children or my parents (my parents' care, actually), my feelings about it are nothing at all like I was purchasing something from them. Using my money that way feels good/satisfying to me, and a cynic or money worshipper (not that there are any of either on TAG ) could argue that I am actually purchasing those positive feeling. However, that is wrong imo, because my children and parents are not giving me the nice feelings (my parents aren't even aware that I am doing it in fact).

Btw, this is a further attempt to respond to @gaijinsan 's question and blown mind:

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/thre...-a-potential-sugar-bb.10267/page-2#post-52180

Does this make it any clearer?

-Ww

Thanks for your more detailed responses (and @Ches for hers--very well said!). Life has been crazy since I returned from Japan, and I've just been able to read all this.

It seems like sugar relationships should develop first from strong interpersonal chemistry and understanding, and then those feelings of care and generosity develop naturally.