Happening Bars Are Ok, But Couple Kissas Are Better

[Solong]

Re #5, from my one HB experience (at 9259), it is certainly true that you don't have to walk around naked and few people did (though most were not fully dressed either), but the changing/locker room outside the shower is uni-sex and small. There was plenty of casual nudity there, and it would have been inconvenient/awkward to shower without being at least briefly naked in there.

There are also windows into the two "playrooms" allowing other guests to watch you in action, so to speak.

None of this bothered me at all, but it might be an issue for someone who is uncomfortable with public nudity and sexuality.

-Ww

@Ww

1) I agree with you, just will add some extra info... Each of the HBs are different, in different ways. At 9259, it's a kind of peculiarity were certain folks like walking around naked at times and outside of "designated areas" and the staff might do this as well. In fact, some ladies come to see the guys hanging loose. 9259, is a slightly different HB experience, as they have these interesting shows, and that can be more of a focus than swinging. However, as mentioned, their isn't any prerequisite for other members to be naked. It's entirely optional. And, 9259 is very safe and well managed, I just object to their ID handling policies.

2) Block Vs Non-Block

It is a HB after all, so of course members are or should be aware that they might be approached and asked to join group fun. Certainly, many women like the attention and enjoy compliments about their looks or some sexy lingerie they might be wearing for example. Many women come to HBs to feel good and enjoy, so no argument there.

What I'm referring to is "gaming" on someone else's lady. That is beyond the context of being in a HB or giving compliments, and is taking it outside. Members attempting to give or get personal information is forbidden in the rules of most HBs, to protect privacy. If a guy wants to "play", then do it IN the HB, not try to create a relationship beyond that or create unneeded issues. Anonymous fantasy play is fantastic, in that context, and that's what HB and CK are for.

Some single male members can be desperate and lack self-control, so will attempt to make moves to go beyond fantasy play in the HB, to trying to establish an affair with the lady of the couple. This will create conflict with the male of the couple and isn't how swinging is done. The proper way is to ask both members of the couple for permission, not try to "sneak" some from the lady outside the HB. And if you want to continue a relationship outside the HB or CK, the well known custom is to exchange contacts with the OTHER male member. This is to show that you mean no disrespect and are friendly. Well managed HBs also make it clear to their single male members not to cause problems or they will be kicked out.

In this same way, poorly managed HBs and certain female members can create issues by violating the privacy of other members for financial gain. That is, they attempt to abuse the male members by "gaming" on their female guests to recruit them as "club hostesses or new staff". This is a sneaky and underhanded tactic that is against the spirit of swinging. If a certain HB needs a club hostess or new staff, they should be recruiting them openly or through regular channels, not behind the back of it's male members.

 

[Wwanderer]

And, 9259 is very safe and well managed, I just object to their ID handling policies.

I can think of a variety of reasons that one might not be comfortable having an HB keep a record (photocopy) of your id but am not sure what you (or others) regard as the biggest worry. Is it that they might get busted and their records seized, resulting in legal problems for all club members, not just the ones present at the bust? Or something else?

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

2) Block Vs Non-Block

It is a HB after all, so of course members are or should be aware that they might be approached and asked to join group fun. Certainly, many women like the attention and enjoy compliments about their looks or some sexy lingerie they might be wearing for example. Many women come to HBs to feel good and enjoy, so no argument there.

What I'm referring to is "gaming" on someone else's lady. That is beyond the context of being in a HB or giving compliments, and is taking it outside. Members attempting to give or get personal information is forbidden in the rules of most HBs, to protect privacy. If a guy wants to "play", then do it IN the HB, not try to create a relationship beyond that or create unneeded issues. Anonymous fantasy play is fantastic, in that context, and that's what HB and CK are for.

Some single male members can be desperate and lack self-control, so will attempt to make moves to go beyond fantasy play in the HB, to trying to establish an affair with the lady of the couple. This will create conflict with the male of the couple and isn't how swinging is done. The proper way is to ask both members of the couple for permission, not try to "sneak" some from the lady outside the HB. And if you want to continue a relationship outside the HB or CK, the well known custom is to exchange contacts with the OTHER male member. This is to show that you mean no disrespect and are friendly. Well managed HBs also make it clear to their single male members not to cause problems or they will be kicked out.

In this same way, poorly managed HBs and certain female members can create issues by violating the privacy of other members for financial gain. That is, they attempt to abuse the male members by "gaming" on their female guests to recruit them as "club hostesses or new staff". This is a sneaky and underhanded tactic that is against the spirit of swinging. If a certain HB needs a club hostess or new staff, they should be recruiting them openly or through regular channels, not behind the back of it's male members.

@Solong

I think we are "talking past each other" on this topic. It is not that I doubt that such behaviors as you describe occur. Nor do I question your opinion that they are "beyond the context of being in a HB" or "disrespectful" or are "violating the privacy of other members" or are "sneaky and underhanded" or "against the spirit of swinging" etc etc. All of that I can easily accept/buy/imagine.

Rather I am questioning why you think it is the guy's role/right/responsibility to decide when another member or the club "crosses the line" and to take it upon himself to do something about it, to block or control or manage or rein in. More precisely, I am disagreeing with your apparent view that a guy going to an HB should be poised to detect and deal with such objectionable behavior. I'd say that it is up to the woman to decide when and if she objects to any interaction she has with other members or the club and what, if anything, to do something about it. Of course one of the things she might choose to do to deal with such problems is ask her date to get involved in blocking them, but that would be an entirely different situation, imo, from her date taking it on himself to "police" her interactions with other club members or with the club itself (to make sure that they conform to what he views as appropriate, in the spirit of swinging etc).

Do you see the distinction I'm making?

-Ww

 

[Solong]

@Ww

I've had the issue of bringing hot women to certain HBs and guys nearly bum rushing my lady or being rude. And certain staff sneakily trying to contact my lady after a visit to the HB, which my ladies did NOT want.

Sometimes the guys are just excessively excited and don't mean anything bad by it (as for staff, they should know better), but it adds to a feeling of being surrounded or overwhelmed, and can cause women to panic or become fearful.

When this happens, especially if she is new, it can ruin her experience. And that's the point of the HB, to have a good time, and not anything which isn't conducive to that.

It is customary and often expected by many women for guys to take the protective role. This is why I mentioned that it can be important for a guy to be a good people manager. Many women, if afraid or unsure, will look to their man for protection and leadership. Especially when it's her first time and she doesn't know what to expect or she has irrational fears about such places.

In the case of a woman that has been to a HB many times or is a P4P pro, she might be comfortable and can easily handle excessive attention or pushy guys. But newbie women often can't and if they have a bad experience at a place, they often will NOT return. And any intelligent managers of a HB or CK would realize this too. Therefore, if the guy wants his lady to accompany him whenever he would like to go to a HB or CK, it's important for him to help make her experience a good one.

Furthermore, Japanese women in particular, might go along with a situation of pushy guys or objectionable behavior AT THE MOMENT, but then give her man a lot of crap about it LATER or refuse to ever return. And as a swinger, that's not what we want to happen. We want to make sure she has a very enjoyable worry-free experience.

With that stated, some guys are OVERLY-protective and the woman is afraid to have fun in front of him or the guy doesn't understand swinging. This kills a woman's fun too and can create a negative experience, because she is afraid of disapproval from her man or is trying to maintain a fake image of being a "good girl". Therefore a balance between overly-protective and blocking overly pushy or sneaky people is needed.

A guy that does a good job of managing a HB situation, ENCOURAGES his woman to play and directs guys, other women, or other couples (that she likes) to play with his lady. Yes, let your woman try on lingerie or cosplay, and join group fun. But keep a protective eye on her (usally from single men and often unexpectedly single women too), to make sure she is and feels safe. Women usually appreciate that their man is encouraging them to play and is protective at the same time, as they will feel comfortable and safe at the HB. If she has a good experience, they will often return with you to the HB or CK many times.

 

[Solong]

I can think of a variety of reasons that one might not be comfortable having an HB keep a record (photocopy) of your id but am not sure what you (or others) regard as the biggest worry. Is it that they might get busted and their records seized, resulting in legal problems for all club members, not just the ones present at the bust? Or something else?

-Ww

It isn't necessary for a HB or CK to photocopy your ID. It's primarily a privacy issue. I have found out that certain places were using the information to inappropriately and sneakily contact or SPAM my ladies with unwanted offers. Also, they can sell your information to 3rd parties for spamming and mailing purposes too.

And yes, the possibility of a legal issue is there when they keep records, however I have NOT heard of any occuring yet. From the perspective of those particular HBs or CKs, they might see it as legal protection for their bar. But, in this regard, clubs/discos can have the same sexual issues, yet they don't photocopy.

Photocopying has panicked some of my ladies. They are used to clubs checking IDs for age, but photocopying and verifying their address and phone number is unexpected and scary for some. And then when they entered the bar, some did NOT want to play for that reason.

And, those HBs that DON'T photocopy IDs of women members tend to have more swinger action. Clearly the reason is directly related to keeping records. I prefer the bars that don't photocopy.

 

[Wwanderer]

It isn't necessary for a HB or CK to photocopy your ID. It's primarily a privacy issue. I have found out that certain places were using the information to inappropriately and sneakily contact or SPAM my ladies with unwanted offers. Also, they can sell your information to 3rd parties for spamming and mailing purposes too.

At 9259 they accepted (and photocopied) my passport as identification. It is a pretty fundamental/official form of identification that does not give any contact info (address, phone number, email addy etc). If the place got busted, and there were legal ramifications, the club having a copy of your passport would be as bad or worse than anything else, but it doesn't give the club or anyone to whom they might sell it much chance of contacting or harassing you in some way.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

It is customary and often expected by many women for guys to take the protective role. This is why I mentioned that it can be important for a guy to be a good people manager. Many women, if afraid or unsure, will look to their man for protection and leadership. Especially when it's her first time and she doesn't know what to expect or she has irrational fears about such places.
...
Furthermore, Japanese women in particular, might go along with a situation of pushy guys or objectionable behavior AT THE MOMENT, but then give her man a lot of crap about it LATER or refuse to ever return. And as a swinger, that's not what we want to happen. We want to make sure she has a very enjoyable worry-free experience.
...
Women usually appreciate that their man is encouraging them to play and is protective at the same time, as they will feel comfortable and safe at the HB. If she has a good experience, they will often return with you to the HB or CK many times.

I certainly agree that guys taking a "protective role" (I'd call it a policing function) is customary and often appreciated. I don't think it is a particularly good/positive custom, but as I indicated in previous posts, if the protection/policing is welcomed by the woman, it is a completely different situation imo. However, I think it is incumbent on the guy to make sure it is actually welcome and not just assume it is needed/appreciated merely because she is a woman or a Japanese woman or whatever.

At the very least I'd want to check with her in advance of taking any blocking/managing/protecting type actions, either before arriving at the HB or when some potentially objectionable situation arises at the HB.

If your date is a HB newbie, you presumably discuss what she can expect to experience at one with her in some detail in advance. I.e., you don't expect her to go into a HB completely blind and unprepared. Right? If so, why not tell her about some of the same negative possibilities you've listed here for us and ask her if she wants you to try to fend off overly aggressive single males etc for her? Or maybe you do that?

My take on this may be odd/unusual. (My take on a lot of things seems to be so, in truth.) For one thing I seem to be most often attractive to and attracted by women with strong, self-confident and independent personalities…women who value (adore even) the support and love of a man but who don't feel like they can't handle life and its challenges without male help/protection. Perhaps these are atypical women. However, I'd think that women with precisely such personalities/outlooks are exactly the sort that would be most willing to try the HB experience…so maybe not so atypical in that context.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

At 9259 they accepted (and photocopied) my passport as identification. It is a pretty fundamental/official form of identification that does not give any contact info (address, phone number, email addy etc). If the place got busted, and there were legal ramifications, the club having a copy of your passport would be as bad or worse than anything else, but it doesn't give the club or anyone to whom they might sell it much chance of contacting or harassing you in some way.

-Ww

Photocopying ID

As a foreigner, you have a loophole, where you can use your passport. A foreigner can play it off like they are a tourist and give false address information and act like you don't have a Japanese phone. Japanese, however, can't. BUT, if you use your Alien Registration ID, they then would be photocopying excessive information. Furthermore, even for the passport, it's unknown which pages they are photocopying. They could be photocopying your VISA info too.

They were also verifying phone numbers and addresses before. And this was in October and around Halloween time. They would call right there on the spot to check and have asked lady friends that I brought for proof of their address. And Japanese, who are trained to obey any authority figures, will often outright tell them their exact address.

List of HBs that photocopy and keep records:

. Sleeping Beauty in Shibuya
. Retreat in Shinjuku
. 9259 (Wakuwaku) in East Shinjuku
. Colors Bar (new and in Shinjuku) is doing the same at this time.

The registration process and photocopying SCARES many single women in those HBs and they may not want to play in the bar. In fact, and this is a revealed secret of 9259, some women go there to meet guys and then actually have sex with them at a hotel or at some other HB or CK (that doesn't photocopy). Of course there are married or living together couples that are not worried and some women that have the "don't give a damn" type personality and are not bothered.

Even more, they keep track of women who register as single or as a couple, and will block them from coming with other men. This is to make sure that the man PAYS the FULL entrance fee. This is some stupid irrational short-sighted greedy HB bullshit. Because if the woman is bringing men to your bar, you are making money from couple fees. I found this out when bringing ladies to 9259 and Retreat. They had registered YEARS ago (one was 2 years ago and the other 1 year ago) as single women. They pulled up their records, YEP after ALL THAT TIME. They then informed me that I couldn't pay the couple fee and needed to pay the full single male fee. Both of those times, I said "FU", and we went elsewhere.

The only loophole for Japanese women is if you have a member's card for another woman (your own or borrowed from a friend) and use it for the woman that you are with. However, the member card must be within a year old. If older than a year, 9259 and Sleeping Beauty will try to make you re-register and check your ID again.

List of recommended HBs that DON'T do photocopying and DON'T keep records:

. Bliss-out (doesn't bother male members bringing female guests)
. Arabesque
. Olive-21

* Olive-21, being a Couple KIssa, also doesn't have any of the problems with single men or women, hostesses, etc... So Olive-21 is the most recommended of the group.


Certain HBs That Photocopy/Keep Records And Contact Your Lady, Behind Your Back...

Those HBs that keep detailed records, can use them to contact your Japanese ladies. They are NOT interested in most foreign men (however exceptions are made for very good looking foreigners of a certain type or clearly rich ones), married couples, couples living at the same address, or old/fat/ugly women.

The management or staff however, can be particularly interested in single women, especially if they are young and good looking. Managers try to have single women present, because that PULLS in guys and is good for their business (so they think). Paying women as hostesses and staff cost them money. P4P pro women can PULL customers out of their bar, causing them to lose money. However, they will pay hostesses whenever it suits their purpose and depending on the management style of the bar. Have female staff that can also play with customers, is another possibility. Often, such "play OK" female staff used to be a single female that came to that or another HB.

SO, getting in some single regular women (that they semi-control) for free is helpful. They look through their detailed records of customers and pull out prospective women and contact them. They have various ways. It might be by an advertisement e-mail (for upcoming events) or a direct call. Direct calls come about after establishing rapport with your lady at the bar. Suppose you go to the bathroom. They have a conversation and exchange contact info, give their personal business card, or ask if it's alright to contact later or tell her to call them. You come back from the bathroom and they smile in your face. They may also check how much Japanese you speak and if you are living with the Japanese woman you have brought. If you don't speak Japanese, they can smile in your face, while making advances or offers to your lady in Japanese.

The staff interacting with your lady could be male or female. With female staff or hostess pretending to be free single women being the least likely to be detected and sneakiest. Most guys think nothing of women approaching and talking to their lady, where they would get defensive if a guy did. The ladies are given offers or asked to come to the bar by themselves, without their guy/boyfriend, or in some cases can be asked to become staff or hostesses for the bar.

The bar also tracks well paying Japanese male customers. They then try to HOOK UP their good Japanese male customers with women. They might introduce your ex-girlfriend to their male customers. This is where the exception comes in. If a foreign guy is very good looking, where many Japanese women are attracted to him and based on seeing this happen with him a few times, then certain HBs might try to use this to their advantage (not so much 9259, but others). They will call Japanese women (to include married ones) to meet him AT their bar. The women they call, are from their detailed records and include women who came previously as couples (thus screwing those male customers behind their backs). This brings women to the bar, which in turns makes it exciting for the other male customers. And the women, if they are in the mood, might play with several guys (it's a HB afterall).

 

[Solong]

I certainly agree that guys taking a "protective role" (I'd call it a policing function) is customary and often appreciated. I don't think it is a particularly good/positive custom, but as I indicated in previous posts, if the protection/policing is welcomed by the woman, it is a completely different situation imo. However, I think it is incumbent on the guy to make sure it is actually welcome and not just assume it is needed/appreciated merely because she is a woman or a Japanese woman or whatever....

-Ww

I totally agree with the 1st part. The "protective role" has to be expected or welcomed by the woman. I agree that some woman are very independent or strong-willed and don't need it as much (but you need to keep an eye on them too, as they may overestimate their ability to control situations) When it comes to HBs, some guys get it wrong. Their woman WANTS to PLAY and have fun at the HB, but the guy is blocking out of jealousy and selfishness. Worse, he may want to play, but wants to block her. This shows a lack of understanding about swinging or HBs.

Irregardless of the guy taking the "protective role", if he is a swinger or wants to enjoy the HB, he should be encouraging his lady to enjoy herself. Some guys don't understand why they can't enjoy the fruits of the swinger lifestyle, but it's their mentality and selfishness that is holding them back. Blocking is for overzealous and pushy guys or people trying to extract personal information. The point of the HB is to have a great experience, make fantasies become reality, and fun.

 

[Wwanderer]

Photocopying ID

As a foreigner, you have a loophole, where you can use your passport. A foreigner can play it off like they are a tourist and give false address information and act like you don't have a Japanese phone. Japanese, however, can't. BUT, if you use your Alien Registration ID, they then would be photocopying excessive information. Furthermore, even for the passport, it's unknown which pages they are photocopying. They could be photocopying your VISA info too.

They were also verifying phone numbers and addresses before. And this was in October and around Halloween time.

I was at 9259 on Friday night, Oct 18th. My date called ahead to make sure that they would take a gaijin guy of my age…no problem. They told her to ask me to bring my passport. She asked if I could use my gaijin (Alien Registration) card, and they told her they preferred that I bring my passport and were fairly insistent about it. She felt that they might not let me in if I showed up with just a gaijin card (despite the fact that it contains more info), so she reminded me (about 15 times!) to be sure to have my passport with me.

I don't understand what difference it makes if they copy the front/photo/id page only or the visa page; neither has any direct contact info, and both have info that would identify you to LE or immigration authorities. What's the difference?

Even more, they keep track of women who register as single or as a couple, and will block them from coming with other men. This is to make sure that the man PAYS the FULL entrance fee. This is some stupid irrational short-sighted greedy HB bullshit. Because if the woman is bringing men to your bar, you are making money from couple fees. I found this out when bringing ladies to 9259 and Retreat. They had registered YEARS ago (one was 2 years ago and the other 1 year ago) as single women. They pulled up their records, YEP after ALL THAT TIME. They then informed me that I couldn't pay the couple fee and needed to pay the full single male fee.

My date had been to 9259 once before, about 5-6 months earlier, with a different guy, so we were in that sort of situation. But I don't recall how much they charged me/us, but it wasn't anything that struck me as remarkable or unreasonable at the time, especially considering that it appeared to include nomihodai for as long as we wanted to stay. I'm pretty sure it was less, probably well less, than ¥20,000.

I suppose what they do, e.g., re IDs, could depend who is working that night, which manager is on duty or something of that sort.

The only complaint I can come up with, and it is a minor one, is that they apparently have some rule that a couple that enters the bar together (we were given color coded wrist bands to show that we were a couple) must stay together all the time, and they lightly enforced that rule on my date and me even when we were just randomly socializing out in the main room. Since we kept getting into conversations with different people who were wandering (but not wwandering!) around, it was mildly inconvenient.

Anyway, I strongly recommend giving an HB a try if you have any curiosity about such things and going with the attitude that it is an opportunity for a novel experience, if nothing more.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Certain HBs That Photocopy/Keep Records And Contact Your Lady, Behind Your Back...

Suppose you go to the bathroom. They have a conversation and exchange contact info, give their personal business card, or ask if it's alright to contact later or tell her to call them. You come back from the bathroom and they smile in your face. They may also check how much Japanese you speak and if you are living with the Japanese woman you have brought. If you don't speak Japanese, they can smile in your face, while making advances or offers to your lady in Japanese.

The ladies are given offers or asked to come to the bar by themselves, without their guy/boyfriend, or in some cases can be asked to become staff or hostesses for the bar.

I don't see the problem here. If she wants to tell me that they approached her, she can tell me; if she doesn't, why shouldn't she be entitled to have a private conversation? If she decides to come back without me or to take a job at the HB or meet some other dude outside the HB or whatever, she can. Am I supposed to prevent her from hearing her options (offers from the HB or other guys) or from exercising the one(s) she wishes? This sounds a lot more like trying to control her than protect her to me.

If a woman is going to stick with me in whatever sense, including anything form being my wife to just being my HB "partner", I want it to be because it is her preference to do so…and definitely NOT because she was prevented from finding out that she had other choices or made to feel that exercising them was betraying me in some way or not having other options for whatever reason.

I also don't see any problem with the club "stocking the pond", so to speak, by doing whatever it can to have a larger number of attractive women (and men) who are willing to play in the place…seems like that just makes for a better party to me. Good business and good for the customers… ("What, me worry?" )

-Ww

 

[Solong]

@Ww

What 9259 is good at is very interesting shows and events, and I will give them that. Some shows and events are quite enjoyable. It's less about swinging action, though it occurs, but more about watching their shows. For newbie couples or couples just lightly into swinging, 9259 can be good option. Especially if you are married or living together, as you will likely not have any worries about the ID registration or the staff trying to game on your lady.

For single guys, 9259 can be a hook up spot (though entrance fee is a bit expensive) to meet sexually liberated women and to include "test driving" right at the "showroom". For single women, it's all nearly free fun, minus their ID registration.

 

[Solong]

I don't see the problem here. If she wants to tell me that they approached her, she can tell me; if she doesn't, why shouldn't she be entitled to have a private conversation? If she decides to come back without me or to take a job at the HB or meet some other dude outside the HB or whatever, she can. Am I supposed to prevent her from hearing her options (offers from the HB or other guys) or from exercising the one(s) she wishes? This sounds a lot more like trying to control her than protect her to me.

If a woman is going to stick with me in whatever sense, including anything form being my wife to just being my HB "partner", I want it to be because it is her preference to do so…and definitely NOT because she was prevented from finding out that she had other choices or made to feel that exercising them was betraying me in some way or not having other options for whatever reason.

I also don't see any problem with the club "stocking the pond", so to speak, by doing whatever it can to have a larger number of attractive women (and men) who are willing to play in the place…seems like that just makes for a better party to me. Good business and good for the customers… ("What, me worry?" )

-Ww

It's not about control, though I can see where you might think it is. I'm not sure of how much swinging that you have done, but it's more about respect and consideration for the feeling of those that you are with, and for couples in general.

In the context of what you stated, it doesn't sound like you have a serious relationship with the woman. A married guy or guy living with a woman, would VERY much be concerned about her working at a HB or meeting some other dude at the HB behind his back or without him. Even if they are swingers.

For boyfriend/girlfriend couples, lovers, and P4P the level of closeness in the relationship varies. I very much agree that a light or sex only relationships would create a more "care free" attitude about the situation. But, that depends on the relationship. It's not for random customers or staff to decide how relaxed the relationship is, but for the couple to tell them. Until then, other customers and staff should be respectful and never pushy or "gaming". It's always smart not to cause trouble.

In my case and those of my other swinger friends, it's a matter of principle and respect when coming as a couple. If the woman or man wants to play independently and unattached, then she or he can go by themselves or doesn't need to be in a relationship. As a single woman, she is free to do what she likes, and if she needs any protection then the bar managers and staff will do the honors. But, if we come as a couple, we are there to share the experience together. We respect each other feelings when interacting with others and play together.

With swingers, even if the man allows (and that refers to a close relationship, not control) his woman to play with other guys, he is often excited to watch her. It's not like she goes off by herself without him. She often knows that he is watching, and it's part of the fun. Often, couples are swapping with other couples, so it's an even exchange. It it's a 3 way, where another woman joins or another guy, this would still be the couple playing together.

Girlfriends and lady friends that me and my friends bring, feel the same way as we do. The ladies don't expect us to go off on our own to play with other women as if she wasn't there. That's disrespect to them. We play together or ask each other for permission.

And in that context, this extends to how the staff and bar interacts with couples. It's disrespectful for the staff or other customers to "game" on females who are part of a couple. They can "game" or make all the offers they want on single women or single men. Giving your business card or offering your phone number to a single woman is clearly different than doing that to a married woman or a girlfriend, with her man present, and is clearly a sign of disrespect. Any guy or staff doing such actions, deserves to be blocked or admonished. There is nearly never any need for staff at a HB to have a secret conversation. Anything that needs to be said, can be said openly and to both members of the couple.

Japanese managers, if they need single women, can comb Mixi and many other online sources to invite women. And when single women come, they can ask the woman to refer them to girlfriends. Furthermore, they can encourage their single male members to bring ladies and couples to bring other couples. It's unnecessary and bad business to "game" on the women that are part of couples and brought by male members to the club.

 

[sambali]

hi Luna. im sam from bali. ill be in tokyo 27 dec till 5 jan..wud love to be ur companion to a happening/couple kissa bar

 

[Solong]

I don't understand what difference it makes if they copy the front/photo/id page only or the visa page; neither has any direct contact info, and both have info that would identify you to LE or immigration authorities. What's the difference?

My date had been to 9259 once before, about 5-6 months earlier, with a different guy, so we were in that sort of situation. But I don't recall how much they charged me/us, but it wasn't anything that struck me as remarkable or unreasonable at the time, especially considering that it appeared to include nomihodai for as long as we wanted to stay. I'm pretty sure it was less, probably well less, than ¥20,000.

I suppose what they do, e.g., re IDs, could depend who is working that night, which manager is on duty or something of that sort.

The only complaint I can come up with, and it is a minor one, is that they apparently have some rule that a couple that enters the bar together (we were given color coded wrist bands to show that we were a couple) must stay together all the time, and they lightly enforced that rule on my date and me even when we were just randomly socializing out in the main room. Since we kept getting into conversations with different people who were wandering (but not wwandering!) around, it was mildly inconvenient.

Anyway, I strongly recommend giving an HB a try if you have any curiosity about such things and going with the attitude that it is an opportunity for a novel experience, if nothing more.

-Ww

1) Passport VS Alien ID

The difference is the address, company, and other info. The difference can make you susceptible to staff doing some bad things (blackmail, blacklisting, etc...). But yes, to authorities, they can find you either way. However, I know of no instance in which bar records were given to authorities. Address, phone, e-mail, etc... Records (like a sales database) appear important for the staff to target well paying male customers and women for recruitment, offers, and invitations as singles.

2) Couples pay between 5,000 to 7,000 yen and not 20,000 yen

It looks like you were charged full single male fee, plus charged to pay for your lady as a single too. Now, there might have been the possibility of some special event, so an extra charge, but it wouldn't not be near 20,000 yen for a couple. Another possibility was you were charged a new member fee.

9259 and Retreat are irrationally obsessed with getting guys to pay the full single male fee whenever they can. Furthermore, they act like they own any single women that has been to their bar (thus their record keeping), and will usually not allow them to enter as a couple, once they join as a single woman. Again, irrational and bad business, as the women bringing men to their bar will make them more money overall and increase popularity. In some other HBs, women get a commission for bringing in new male customers.

3) All the staff and managers are suppose to adhere to the bar's rules and policies.

You usually have to be a really good friend of the staff or know the owner to get exceptions.

4) Couple Rule at 9259

This rule is peculiar and I've only ever seen it at 9259. The issue is that sometimes guys would have a female friend join with them just to get a couple discount. It should not matter, as you paid, but evidently it matters to some HB managers. Once inside the bar, the guy would act single and try to hook up with as many women as possible. This is an issue at other HBs, in which managers and policies deal with it in different ways from 9259. In your case, it doesn't make sense if you paid the single guy fee. The other possible reason is to "restrict men in couples", since he didn't pay the full fee. It's to make it seem like paying the full single male fee is a benefit. They usually bother the guy, not the lady. I've directed my lady to invite others and they didn't bother her.

 

[Wwanderer]

It's not about control, though I can see where you might think it is. I'm not sure of how much swinging that you have done, but it's more about respect and consideration for the feeling of those that you are with, and for couples in general.

In the context of what you stated, it doesn't sound like you have a serious relationship with the woman. A married guy or guy living with a woman, would VERY much be concerned about her working at a HB or meeting some other dude at the HB behind his back or without him. Even if they are swingers.

For boyfriend/girlfriend couples, lovers, and P4P the level of closeness in the relationship varies. I very much agree that a light or sex only relationships would create a more "care free" attitude about the situation. But, that depends on the relationship. It's not for random customers or staff to decide how relaxed the relationship is, but for the couple to tell them. Until then, other customers and staff should be respectful and never pushy or "gaming". It's always smart not to cause trouble. ...

I continue to enjoy this exchange; the contrast between how we perceive the same reality is interesting. But it does seem to me that you are either not seeing my point or are simply not responding to it.

Just as I agreed with you above about various points of possible bad behavior by other members and the club etc, I certainly agree with you that the implications for me of the woman's choices about seeing other guys or working in the HB are VERY different depending on the nature of our relationship. They might mean virtually nothing to me, for example if she is a pro-escort that I hired for the evening in order to have a partner at the HB, to having fundamental and long-term implications for the most important and personal parts of my life, for example if she were my wife of many years.

HOWEVER, and here is the part you *appear* to not be hearing, they are still HER choices and NOT MINE no matter what the implications are for me, and I have no right to prevent her from deciding for herself and even less right prevent her from even knowing there is a choice to be made, in order to protect my own interests, imo. Again and as already discussed, unless she clearly indicates that she wants me to police her interactions with other customers and club staff.

Now, depending on the nature of our relationship and the explicit and implicit understandings we have between us, she may be obligated to get my input on her choices or even to allow me to make them for her or to veto them. Right. But again it is up to her whether to honor those obligations to me and up to us to deal with any failure to keep those obligations, but again imo, I should not try to unilaterally enforce them on her.

You mentioned my level of experience as a swinger; I have some but not a huge amount. I have more experience in open relationships. And it seems to me that that may go to the heart of our divergence of views. Swinging and open relationships are very very different things. Swinging is still embedded in our standard cultural view of romantic/sexual relationships as involving something akin to property rights. (Notice that in English we use the same possessive pronouns for SOs that we do for material objects - "my wife", "your girlfriend", "her lover" etc.) Swinging is like sharing something you own, sometimes by swapping ("I'll give you half my sandwich if you give me half of yours.") or just loaning out property, like letting your neighbor borrow a tool he needs for an hour or two. An open relationship is about not owning the other person, a relationship in which they retain full "agency" in the language of moral philosophy…full rights to make their own decisions and full responsibility for their consequences. See the distinction?

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

But, if we come as a couple, we are there to share the experience together. We respect each other feelings when interacting with others and play together.

With swingers, even if the man allows (and that refers to a close relationship, not control) his woman to play with other guys, he is often excited to watch her. It's not like she goes off by herself without him. She often knows that he is watching, and it's part of the fun. Often, couples are swapping with other couples, so it's an even exchange. It it's a 3 way, where another woman joins or another guy, this would still be the couple playing together.

Girlfriends and lady friends that me and my friends bring, feel the same way as we do. The ladies don't expect us to go off on our own to play with other women as if she wasn't there. That's disrespect to them. We play together or ask each other for permission.

I ran out of time in making my last post and just wanted to amplify a couple of its points wrt the above quote from your post.

First of all, I again have no problem at all with the ideas of sharing the experience, respecting each other, playing and enjoying together, asking permission (which is exactly what my date and I did in my one HB experience as I mentioned above) etc etc. That all sounds great, a wise way to go. The only thing I have trouble with is the *appearance* that you are not comfortable relying on your date to voluntarily behave in those ways but feel some need to make sure that she does so, to prevent her from even having the option or temptation of doing otherwise.

Second, note in the quote from your post how clearly the property-like nature of swinging comes through: "even exchange", "swapping" etc. To be clear I'm not disputing that this is how swingers look at things; it definitely is as far as I can tell. I just want to emphasize the distinction with an open relationship in which both partners retain their independence and right to make their own decisions, in which there is no notion that either "belongs" to the other in some (usually vaguely defined) sense.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

@Ww

I think our views are very likely compatible with each other overall. We might have some fine detail differences, which in the greater scheme of things and in comparison to other views, are very minor.

Swinging VS Open-Relationship

I don't see a conflict here because the 2 often go together. In fact, swingers often define their relationships as open-relationships, though there can be some distinctions. Open-relationships may not have swinging involved. Swingers might not have any interaction with other people outside of a swinging party or meeting.

I will avoid the language part of the argument, because many aspects of it is built into the grammatical structure of English.

The very essence of swinging is to go beyond selfishness, jealousy, and physical ownership. The connection between swinging couples is beyond physical, but mental, and is closer to unconditional love for each other. Love isn't defined by physical control or ownership, which is why sexual exchanges with others is possible.

Swingers share a mental connection or love beyond the physical or sexual ownership, and sharing and swapping with others is also a way of demonstrating this.

Swingers acknowledge and embrace the reality of human sexuality, where we can seek and can be sexually gratified by many others. However, they maintain strong mental bonds which reinforces the strength of their relationship. They don't try to use sex or withhold sex to manipulate each other as conventional couples do. Swingers don't define their relationships by physically controlling their significant other, particularly via selfishness or jealousy, like many conventional couples do.

People in open-relationships can have a very similar outlook as swingers, but they can have a wide range, with very different styles. You have "don't ask, don't tell" type open-relationship where they allow sex with others but not around them, and they don't want to know with who else or any details. They let their SO out to play, but don't want to hear or know about it once they come home. Other open-relationships can be almost polyamorous, where the people involved very much know each other or they may have group sex together (like swingers).

Case by case

How a couple in a swinger relationship or in a open-relationship interact with each other and define their relationship has a lot of variation. We should expect couples to interact differently, even if they are swingers or in open-relationships too.

Control VS Ownership VS Concern VS Freedom

This can be a matter of perspective. For instance, I do consider my girlfriends or lady friends to have full agency and to do what they like, to include responsibility for their actions.

They also don't have to be in the bar with me or I with them. We could have came independently, especially if we want to act a certain way in a place or think being with the other is inconvenient.

That we came together, is itself defining the nature of our interaction. We are not going to pretend we don't know each other. We are there to share the experience together. And it's the same for when we go to a movie or dinner together. Therefore we interact as a team.

Many people, when new to a situation, expect the more experienced or knowledgeable person to take the lead. To explain, to show, to guide, etc... This isn't gender specific and happens with 2 women or 2 men going some place.

Your lady had already been to that happening bar and had experience. If anything, she might be mentoring or guiding you, or at least, doesn't need any help. On the flip, in various cases, I'm bringing women (or friends of mine) who have never been to a HB or CK. They are looking to me for guidance, advice, protection, explanations, etc....

I also want to make sure they have a good experience. The complaints that I present here, were from women and friends that had issues at a HB. The ladies themselves, can object to pushy guys or conniving staff, and want us to handle it. My girlfriends have told on staff that gave out business cards or made offers behind my back, contacted them by e-mail or phone, and they were upset. They have come to me about pushy guys and needed me to deal with them. This isn't control of a woman, this is providing assistance or guidance. This thread is also a guide to help people.

As a swinger, we want our ladies to enjoy themselves and to enjoy coming back again. We want to go the bars and places that are the most fun.

 

[Wwanderer]

@Solong

In this post I'm going to pick up a few loose ends in the discussion, not particularly related to each other or to the main topic we have been discussing (about policing/protecting etc):

First, I did not mean to say that I paid ¥20,000 or close to it but only that I think I would remember if it had been in that range because it would have seemed a bit high to me. Also if it had been much less than the ¥10,000 range I would probably recall because it would have seemed rather cheap to me. Whatever it was seemed fair/sensible enough to me that it didn't make any impression that lasted. But I was more focused on being allowed to enter (as a gaijin and an old guy) than on the cost. Anyway, in terms of jollies per yen, I definitely felt that I got my money's worth.

Interesting that the couples-must-stay-together rule is unique to 9259. It felt a little odd and awkward to me, as I mentioned. Thanks for clarifying that.

About my relationship with the woman who took me to the HB back in October, I'm not going to describe/discuss it here because 1 - it seems too much of an invasion of her privacy (even given that it would be on an anonymous basis) to put it out on a public internet forum, and 2 - our connection is a bit unusual/complicated and is definitely "evolving". Also it is largely irrelevant to the main topic of our discussion from my perspective.

On the photocopying of visas, the blackmail issue through one's employer/visa-sponsor had not really occurred to me but seems very far fetched. Trying to blackmail a customer sounds like a terrific way to get the place closed down by LE (who would probably love any excuse to do so). I suppose it depends on how sensitive one's position/employment is. In my case, exposing that I had been to an HB would be rather embarrassing but wouldn't cost me my job. Anyway, "what me worry?" I guess I'd prefer that they not photocopy my ID, but it does have a positive side too…in that it means that the other customers have had their identities verified too…which would presumably make them less likely to behave badly in some way. In other words if I were going to an HB for some nefarious purpose, I'd probably pick one that didn't photocopy IDs.

On the privacy issue, it did occur to me while I was there that with modern tiny digi-cam (webcam) technology, it would be VERY easy for one of the other customers or the HB to video taping anything and everything that happened. If I were inclined to be paranoid, I'd be more worried on that front I think.

About respect and disrespect - I got virtually no respect from my peers and many adults too when I was growing up (for reasons that needn't concern us here), and one of the things I learned was that if people don't respect you, then your only choices are to give up being yourself or endure the disrespect. In some circumstances you can force people to hide their disrespect, but it is still there. Imo and experience, the best approach is to work hard to earn you own (self-)respect and otherwise ignore the whole issue. For the most part the respect/disrespect of others ends up having no more consequence than you give it. Life is full of such things it often seems to me, things that cause people no end of stress, worry, anxiety etc but which can be ignored without causing any problems if one simply does so.

Finally re the "stocking the pond" with attractive and sex-positive women, if there are indeed easier and better ways to do it as you state, then the HB bars who offend and drive away business from couples by trying to recruit their female halves are indeed behaving foolishly from a business perspective. The market will presumably punish them to the extent that it is a major issue.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Many people, when new to a situation, expect the more experienced or knowledgeable person to take the lead. To explain, to show, to guide, etc... This isn't gender specific and happens with 2 women or 2 men going some place.

Your lady had already been to that happening bar and had experience. If anything, she might be mentoring or guiding you, or at least, doesn't need any help. On the flip, in various cases, I'm bringing women (or friends of mine) who have never been to a HB or CK. They are looking to me for guidance, advice, protection, explanations, etc....

These comments reminded me of a question I asked, at least implicitly, earlier but which you didn't answer. Namely, when you are introducing a newbie to a HB, I assume you let them know something about what they should expect before you arrive. Right? If so, does this include telling them about the sorts of objectionable behavior of single males or the bar itself that they might encounter and discussing with them how it might be handled and by whom (her or you)? Since you have mentioned wanting to do as much as possible to make sure that she enjoys the experience and isn't put off by something unpleasant, it seems natural that you would do so. If that is correct and if you get her explicit or strong implicit encouragement to help protect her from such advances, then we really disagree on very little if anything.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

@Ww

It occurred to me that addressing your question makes for an interesting topic, so I generalized it and started a thread called-
"How To Bring Women To A Happening Bar Or Swinger Party"
( http://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/how-to-bring-women-to-a-happening-bar-or-swinger-party.6673/ )
On specifics about that, let's discuss there...

Newbie Women To A HB or CK

Unless she is experienced with a HB or does some type of work where going to a HB would not be shocking at all, like P4P or a stripper, you have to talk and prepare them.

1) The first part is to get an understanding about her views on sex in general.

This can be done in 1 conversation or it might take several conversations. Depends on the woman, situation, relationship, etc...

You talk about being open-minded about sex, conservativeness, body complexes, kinky, likes or doesn't like lingerie, jealousy, etc...

Such a general talk about sex and views on sex forms a blueprint of how to move forward about going to a HB and how far away or close she naturally is from the possibility of going.

2) Agreeing to try a HB, but in general principle.

This next step can be at the same meeting of the general talk, as that went so well, or some days or weeks later.

You describe the bar, but in general terms and not specifically yet, and the intention to go to such a place sometime soon.

You don't want to get into specifics, as that can be information overload for a newbie, she can't imagine how it really is as she has no experience, or you may unnecessarily scare her or she is scaring herself with irrational paranoia.

You are at first seeing if she agrees in principle and in generally with trying it out. You would leverage any sexual fantasies she told you about it in the general talk. Like my present lady friend told me about her fantasies to have sex outside and to do a 3-way. Clearly, this can show interest in trying out a HB or CK.

For some women, like say a stripper or some sexually liberated women, the general talk and general intention to go to a bar, can progress very rapidly and within that same night or even within a 30min conversation. Even, it pops into her mind to ask you, because she already may have went to a HB, she is kinky, or done group sex in the past (though she may or may not tell you specifics about her past). But with other women, it's best to go step by step and it could take days or weeks to reach step 2, as they may need to warm up to the idea (or may never do so). It's her prerogative.

3) Going to the HB

On the day you agree to go or on the way, you break down various scenarios and things to avoid.

Again, many newbies may have no clue what you are talking about and have no similar past experiences to relate in her mind about what you are saying to her. So often, it will come down to her following your lead and her trust in you to make sure things go well.

4) In the HB

The best place to continue the explanation is actually IN the HB or CK. Now she can see exactly how things go with her own eyes. You then explain those things to avoid and if possible, show her around the place. Even introduce her to friends or acquaintances, if they happen to be there. It is also best if the guy explains about a place and not only the staff. Hopefully, the guy has come there before as a single or couple and understands the flow of things. This is because the club staff or other customers may have their own agenda. As you are a couple, it's best for the both of you to decide how you feel and what you want to do.

At the point she feels comfortable, you can proceed or not. It all depends on her comfort level (and yours), your relationship, and the situation.

 

[Wwanderer]

Photocopying ID

List of HBs that photocopy and keep records:

. Sleeping Beauty in Shibuya
. Retreat in Shinjuku
. 9259 (Wakuwaku) in East Shinjuku
. Colors Bar (new and in Shinjuku) is doing the same at this time.

I don't know whether their policy has changed or if their practice is simply inconsistent (the former is more likely since this is Japan), but I was at Retreat on Thursday evening, and they did not photocopy our passports. In fact they barely glanced at them, only took one of the three for a moment before returning it and just waved the other two away when we offered them. I think one of my companions never even got hers open, so it could have been anyone's passport...or perhaps any vaguely passport shaped and sized object. Moreover, although asked/required to sign some form, no address or phone number info was even requested.

If the club wants to contact either of my dates to try to get her to come back as a single, they will have to resort to mental telepathy.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

@Wwanderer

It does look like various clubs are changing their policy. Retreat used to photocopy, but might have listened to customer complaints and changed their policy. Also, many guys were using retreat cards that they had for a previous lady to escort different ladies in, so that might have been a factor too.

However, that the ladies were foreign women, might have been a reason. They might have seen no value in photocopying a tourist's information, who may be leaving soon. Sending them ads and invitations in Japanese, wouldn't be effective.

A simple ID check of the women who are part of a couple is all that is necessary. As usually, the woman is a guest of the man. And if the other way, woman is a member and guy is her guest, the same rule can apply.

 

[Wwanderer]

However, that the ladies were foreign women, might have been a reason.

Both of my companions that night were (and still are! ) Japanese and greater Tokyo residents.

I was surprised that they would ask for passports from Japanese customers since having one isn't required, or even likely, for people who have not traveled internationally. Nevertheless, I was told by one of my lady friends that the website asked for passports even for Japanese…if I understood her correctly. I was (again) the only gaijin in the place that night…or at least the only Westerner.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Both of my companions that night were (and still are! ) Japanese and greater Tokyo residents.

I was surprised that they would ask for passports from Japanese customers since having one isn't required, or even likely, for people who have not traveled internationally. Nevertheless, I was told by one of my lady friends that the website asked for passports even for Japanese…if I understood her correctly. I was (again) the only gaijin in the place that night…or at least the only Westerner.

-Ww

That is very weird. They never asked for passports from any of my Japanese guests and this isn't asked for from Japanese at other bars.

However, as I mentioned, you can use membership cards from your friends (who had female guests) or previous lady guests to bypass their bullshit. So I haven't had to sign anybody up recently. Just show membership cards and go in.

I find the Retreat staff to be a bit nutty at times, especially how they administer that "back room" area and the door to it. So they aren't at the top of my list, though I do like how the interior looks for such a club.