Is Japan becoming an even more uptight place?

[warubuta]

Lately I have been getting the feeling that Japan is becoming an even more uptight place than it has always been. People seem to get very bent out of shape when the don't get exactly what they think they were promised. The monster customer syndrome has everyone who provides any kind of service on the defence to the point where it is having a negative effect on customer service. Human relations between customers and merchants/service providers lacks any empathy or understanding. The goal these days seems to be to not ever make even the smallest mistake. It used to be to provide great service. There is a huge difference. People can't talk to each other anymore in a relaxed way. Everybody wants to do everything on their phones and avoid real contact. Its safer this way. So now we have a whole country full of people who are afraid to talk to strangers. The whole thing about personal data protection and privacy is way overboard. Who cares if someone knows your address? Why do you need to shred everything? Why so defensive? Too much! I love this place. It runs like a Swiss watch and contrasts nicely with my mellow Buta vibe, but lately I am wondering wtf. MAybe need to head south for a few weeks. Bali or Chaing Mai. 35 minutes for my pad Thai to come. I love it! Who cares?

 

[MikeH]

Yes, but I don't think it's only Japan. Service used to be bad in Europe, now it's worse. Everything needs to be in the net or on self service machines. Hell, even if there is someone working there his job is just to see you operate the machine properly, not to serve you.

 

[psd]

A French waiter fired for being “aggressive, rude and disrespectful” says his behaviour wasn’t out of line – he’s just French.

Guillaume Rey, who worked at a Vancouver restaurant on Canada’s Pacific coast, filed a complaint with British Columbia’s Human Rights Tribunal against his former employer, claiming “discrimination against my culture”.

The restaurant, operated by Cara Operations, accused Rey of violating its code of conduct and said he persisted in his behavior despite verbal and written performance reviews.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ness-is-discrimination-against-my-culture#top

 

[Frenchy]

A French waiter fired for being “aggressive, rude and disrespectful” says his behaviour wasn’t out of line – he’s just French.

Guillaume Rey, who worked at a Vancouver restaurant on Canada’s Pacific coast, filed a complaint with British Columbia’s Human Rights Tribunal against his former employer, claiming “discrimination against my culture”.

The restaurant, operated by Cara Operations, accused Rey of violating its code of conduct and said he persisted in his behavior despite verbal and written performance reviews.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ness-is-discrimination-against-my-culture#top

I agree French waiters are often rude, but what does this have to do with the Buta’s thread?

Personnally I think its not as black and white: what he said was often true (but yes, not specific to Japan), however in some ways I find them less uptight than 20 or even 10 years ago. More work/like balance for instance.

 

[joeking]

I actually don’t know how they stay so calm. The economy has been in the shitter for 20+ years, they’ve become the cheap tourist destination for Taiwan, Korea and China, I’m surprised they aren’t stivking heads on pikes…

 

[Frenchy]

I actually don’t know how they stay so calm. The economy has been in the shitter for 20+ years, they’ve become the cheap tourist destination for Taiwan, Korea and China, I’m surprised they aren’t stivking heads on pikes…

You must be joking , Joeking...
The unemployment rate has never been so low, and yes they didnt have much growth but are still the 3rd economic power , with a declining population , so even 1 or 2% growth is not bad at all. Many countries would envy Japan’s overall economic situation. And is it really such a « cheap tourist destination » for Chinese?! Come on...

 

[warubuta]

I actually don’t know how they stay so calm. The economy has been in the shitter for 20+ years, they’ve become the cheap tourist destination for Taiwan, Korea and China, I’m surprised they aren’t stivking heads on pikes…

The economy has not been in the shitter. Growth has slowed. But otherwise things are comparatively good. And finally we are getting tourists. I think it’s great.

 

[joeking]

The number of people getting the traditional lifetime jobs is at an all time low, and almost everyone who gets a job is pushed to karoshi at slave wages. Google ブラック企業 and you'll see that the low unemployment rate is not really a good measure for the health of the job seeking population. Hang out with nurses and see how work that was once an enviable opportunity has turned into a job that requires a huge amount of effort for slave wages. I also tend to think that 引き籠り are canaries in the coal mine.

As far as being a 'cheap' tourist destination, if just 1% of the Chinese have enough money to come over here, it becomes a cheap tourist destination. And while getting economic boost from tourists seems like easy money (and look at the debates about casino, whenever you do get something, it isn't free. TANSTAAFL.

Of course, it is interesting to have this discussion here, my understanding is a lot of the lower end establishments discussed here have a lot of Chinese customers and are dealing with problems from that influx. Japan cushions the blow by 'omotenashi', which is advertised as going the extra mile for the customer, but is really a way to make the customer indebted to you and flip the power relationship.

All this isn't mentioning 3-11 and the Kumamoto earthquakes.

And yes, many countries would envy Japan's economic situation, but would they want to trade places if they had to take on _everything_ that Japan has, including a population that is skewed so much to the elderly and a negative birth rate that makes maintaining the tax base and the ability to pay pensions increasingly difficult, along with the inability to accept immigrants to actually deal with those issues. I think they would say 'no, we are good'. A lot of this is masked by the vibrancy of the main population centers in Japan, but go out into the boonies and you'll see that things are really unsustainable.

 

[MikeH]

Hang out with nurses and see how work that was once an enviable opportunity has turned into a job that requires a huge amount of effort for slave wages.

I have been hanging out with nurses all over the globe for decades and that job has always been mired with inhuman work load, crazy shift times and laughable pay.

As far as being a 'cheap' tourist destination, if just 1% of the Chinese have enough money to come over here, it becomes a cheap tourist destination.

I really don't follow your logic here, but if 1% of Chinese will bring their monies in Japan it actually don't lower the prices but raises them. And we get to keep the monies in the end anyway.

 

[joeking]

Frenchy said that Japan wasn't a cheap tourist destination for Chinese, and I just pointed out that all you needed was 1% of the Chinese population to consider Japan a cheap destination and it would be 'a cheap destination'.

 

[e-smile]

As far as being a 'cheap' tourist destination, if just 1% of the Chinese have enough money to come over here, it becomes a cheap tourist destination.

if the rich Chinese have enough money to come here they have enough money to go anywhere.

 

[Frenchy]

Frenchy said that Japan wasn't a cheap tourist destination for Chinese, and I just pointed out that all you needed was 1% of the Chinese population to consider Japan a cheap destination and it would be 'a cheap destination'.

Come on , it’s not a « cheap destination » like, say, the Philippines or Thailand etc. By any stretch of imagination. It’s the Chinese who (for the upper crust) became richer, and also can now get visas more easily than in the past, because the Japanese government want to promote tourism. Yes it increased a lot , but still lagging behind (in number of visitors or % of GDP etc... ) many more touristic countries.

 

[warubuta]

I see tourists these days from all over the world. In Kamakura there are alot of Europeans. In Akihabara, I see a huge number of Chinese, but also other Asians and many Europeans too. It is plainly obvious that the tourists are breathing new life into these places. Probably not going to have much of an effect on the economy overall, but it is a good turn of events in my opinion. Think about it this way. Japan has always had a huge amount to offer as a tourist destination, but for a variety of reasons, there have been very few tourists. Almost none in fact. Now we are finally get back to what it naturally should be. I dont think we have to worry about Japan becoming a cheap backpacker desitination. The high cost of living & the strong yen will never let that happen. The cost of a JApan vacation will never be less expensive that a vacation in other developed couuntries like the US, Germany etc.

The busiest airport in Japan these days? Shizuoka. They are pumping in cheap package Chinese tourists for 3 days of riding around in a bus, eating Australian beef shabu shabu and taking pictures of Fuji-san. For alot of these middle class Chinese it is the first and only time they will ever leave mainland China.

 

[joeking]

In some ways, I like it, and in some ways, I think it is unavoidable, so I'm not bitching about it. But your original question was why Japanese are getting so uptight. Don't you think that would make you uptight? People coming around looking at you like a zoo exhibit, asking you stupid questions. You wait to get off the bus and you've got a family of 5 paying 17 yen each and the driver is having to explain that the 0 is dropped off. Go into your local drug store and see all the Tax Free! signs.

The last time I was in Hamamatsu, I went out in the evening and all the Brazilian Japanese were in front of the station drinking, singing, while the Japanese walking by were glaring at them. Go to those places and you'll get a good dose of uptightness. Or maybe not, if you identify yourself in a way that makes it so you aren't one of "them".

While it is great for lifers who can speak Japanese (Sugoi! Nihongo shaberimasu!!), if we don't have a chance to relay that we are 'alright', we are going to get tarred with the same brush and people are going to get uptight around us. And I assume you've been here long enough to sense when people are not comfortable and, like sympathetic vibrations, you are not comfortable (I envy those for whom this never occurs).

AirBNB, capsule hotels, Japan rail passes, I think you are going to get more and more Chinese backpackers and they are going to more clueless than the European and American ones. Fortunately, I'll be dead and gone by the time it gets really bad...

 

[warubuta]

In some ways, I like it, and in some ways, I think it is unavoidable, so I'm not bitching about it. But your original question was why Japanese are getting so uptight. Don't you think that would make you uptight? People coming around looking at you like a zoo exhibit, asking you stupid questions. You wait to get off the bus and you've got a family of 5 paying 17 yen each and the driver is having to explain that the 0 is dropped off. Go into your local drug store and see all the Tax Free! signs.

The last time I was in Hamamatsu, I went out in the evening and all the Brazilian Japanese were in front of the station drinking, singing, while the Japanese walking by were glaring at them. Go to those places and you'll get a good dose of uptightness. Or maybe not, if you identify yourself in a way that makes it so you aren't one of "them".

While it is great for lifers who can speak Japanese (Sugoi! Nihongo shaberimasu!!), if we don't have a chance to relay that we are 'alright', we are going to get tarred with the same brush and people are going to get uptight around us. And I assume you've been here long enough to sense when people are not comfortable and, like sympathetic vibrations, you are not comfortable (I envy those for whom this never occurs).

AirBNB, capsule hotels, Japan rail passes, I think you are going to get more and more Chinese backpackers and they are going to more clueless than the European and American ones. Fortunately, I'll be dead and gone by the time it gets really bad...

The people who are uptight about tourists having a good time need to fucking get over it or move to a place where there are no tourists. There have been too few tourists in the last 20 years or so, and it has had a negative effect. Japanese people need to learn to deal with tourists and foreigners in general. They need to let people with tattoos in the sento. They need to learn at least a few words of English. They need to learn to be flexible about some things and they need to know how to politely tell tourists when they are fucking up and they need to stop. I hate when I see the USMC walking though the coastal town where I have a weekend house with no shirt and a beer in there hand. This is OK in SoCal or Pattaya but not in Shonan. So I politely tell them that it is uncool. Japanese people don’t know how to communicate so the they just put up with it. Things need to change. Globalism for better or worse means that if the Japanese want to continue to sell Toyotas and Sonys to the global markets, they need to join the global community.

 

[Frenchy]

The people who are uptight about tourists having a good time need to fucking get over it or move to a place where there are no tourists. There have been too few tourists in the last 20 years or so, and it has had a negative effect. Japanese people need to learn to deal with tourists and foreigners in general. They need to let people with tattoos in the sento. They need to learn at least a few words of English. They need to learn to be flexible about some things and they need to know how to politely tell tourists when they are fucking up and they need to stop. I hate when I see the USMC walking though the coastal town where I have a weekend house with no shirt and a beer in there hand. This is OK in SoCal or Pattaya but not in Shonan. So I politely tell them that it is uncool. Japanese people don’t know how to communicate so the they just put up with it. Things need to change. Globalism for better or worse means that if the Japanese want to continue to sell Toyotas and Sonys to the global markets, they need to join the global community.

Agreed. I think the bad effects of « mass tourism » are still relatively limited in Japan. Compared to , say, some beaches towns in south Spain for example , the number and behaviour of the douches here is still manageable.

 

[warubuta]

Agreed. I think the bad effects of « mass tourism » are still relatively limited in Japan. Compared to , say, some beaches towns in south Spain for example , the number and behaviour of the douches here is still manageable.

And as long as the cost of coming here remains high, and there is no reason it shouldn't, the quality of tourists will also be OK. I think that the cheap Chinese tourists are a problem. Some of them dont seem to know how to behave. They dont know how to line up. They are a bit messy. But the interesting thing is, they are being managed and constrained by the tour company guides such that they dont get many chances to cause trouble. On the bus. Off the bus. Buy a t shirt. Eat takoyaki. Back on the bus.

 

[MossBoss]

And yes, many countries would envy Japan's economic situation, but would they want to trade places if they had to take on _everything_ that Japan has, including a population that is skewed so much to the elderly and a negative birth rate that makes maintaining the tax base and the ability to pay pensions increasingly difficult, along with the inability to accept immigrants to actually deal with those issues. I think they would say 'no, we are good'.

The Japanese are clever. They have been watching the disaster of Europe. The mass immigration has created unprecedented social issues.

The Japanese look after the interests of themselves and so have avoided many of the problems faced by Europe. Ask almost any Japanese person which model they favor. Hint: it is not the European one.

 

[MikeH]

Fortunately, I'll be dead and gone by the time it gets really bad...

It's going to get better with time, not worse. Those mainland Chinese who now are travelling abroad for the first time are the ones whose behaviour even the people in Hong Kong hate but they will learn to little by little. And their kids will know even better. It's not that long ago when Europeans flooded the Asian tourist destinations and they were equally clueless.

 

[warubuta]

It's going to get better with time, not worse. Those mainland Chinese who now are travelling abroad for the first time are the ones whose behaviour even the people in Hong Kong hate but they will learn to little by little. And their kids will know even better. It's not that long ago when Europeans flooded the Asian tourist destinations and they were equally clueless.

I agree. The Japanese will get ruder and the Chinese will get more polite. In the end we will be one big happy Asia.

 

[bergmann]

Yes, but I don't think it's only Japan. Service used to be bad in Europe, now it's worse. Everything needs to be in the net or on self service machines. Hell, even if there is someone working there his job is just to see you operate the machine properly, not to serve you.

DAMN I HATE SELF-SERVICE MACHINES I spend all day thinking about technical stuff and the last thing I want to do is THINK ABOUT HOW TO OPERATE YOUR DAMN MACHINE BECAUSE IT CUTS YOUR COSTS. Nearly threw a wobbly at Changi's new T4 the other week as they have a new-fangled automatic baggage drop system which didn't want to accept my case as I'd put the label on wrong because the DAMN CHECKIN MACHINE GAVE ME LIKE 5 SECONDS TO READ THE INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO DO IT.

 

[MikeH]

DAMN I HATE SELF-SERVICE MACHINES I spend all day thinking about technical stuff and the last thing I want to do is THINK ABOUT HOW TO OPERATE YOUR DAMN MACHINE BECAUSE IT CUTS YOUR COSTS. Nearly threw a wobbly at Changi's new T4 the other week as they have a new-fangled automatic baggage drop system which didn't want to accept my case as I'd put the label on wrong because the DAMN CHECKIN MACHINE GAVE ME LIKE 5 SECONDS TO READ THE INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO DO IT.

I dislike self service machines but in airports I do hate them. I mean I used to be able to chat myself to an upgrade about fifty percent of the time when the person behind the desk was a cute girl but even my sweet talk does nothing to those damn machines.

 

[chaztagster]

Sugoi! Nihongo shaberimasu!!

Beto beto desu ne! (Or was it bera bera? Whatever. Same difference).

if we don't have a chance to relay that we are 'alright

We always have a chance to say "DAIJOBI!!"

 

[ShowaJidai]

I have a problem - specific to my personal situation I understand - with Japanese service by phone.

After years of firing mortars and machine-guns in the military I am missing hearing in big chunks of high frequency sound. With modern phone technology being digital, basically being transmitted in 8 bands of which I seem to be missing 3 of the higher end. So way too often when some Japanese woman gets on the line with that high-pitched pretend voice all I can hear is something akin to a mosquito near my ear. Then, of course, they see my name in their records and assume it's a language issue.

 

[Frenchy]

I dislike self service machines but in airports I do hate them. I mean I used to be able to chat myself to an upgrade about fifty percent of the time when the person behind the desk was a cute girl but even my sweet talk does nothing to those damn machines.

Then you’re probably the reason why they installed them!