Monger Personal Partner Preferences Vs. Sex Worker Personal Privacy

[Wwanderer]

However, the welfare and peace of mind of the paying customer must also be upheld, in my opinion.

Also, some men are very very straight to the point that they feel grossed out by the idea of being with a very beautiful girl who turned out to be was once a man. It is their preferrence and their choice, not to accept a trans as equal to a woman.

The preferrence and the welfare of the paying customer must be upheld at all times. How he sees is more important than how the trans sees herself.

This is not a matter of discrimination in my opinion.

I have imported the above quote from a post @Ches made in the current thread about t-women doing sex work and about their general gender status and "merit" (a weird word to use imo). I have expressed my views on that general topic in that thread but am starting a new thread on what I see as a separate and much more subtle and tricky issue, one that is important for trans sex workers but also in many other sex work (and casual sex contexts). I think it deserves its own thread.

Let me start out by saying that I disagree with what @Ches says in the above quote and particularly the part which I made bold. Imo how a people see themselves is always more important than how others see them in nearly all contexts. I might add that I am not sure what @Ches means in the above quote where she uses the word "welfare"; I do not see any sense in which the "paying customer's" welfare is in play.

However, despite my disagreement, I think that this is an issue on which rational people could disagree. The basic reason is that important human rights are coming into conflict here (like the cliché of freedom of speech being limited by the rights of others not to be harmed by "hate speech" or false information). Such situations are almost always gray areas filled with slippery slopes.

In this case we are talking about the right of personal privacy (for sex workers) versus the right of people to select their sex partners on the basis of their personal feelings.

Imo, the proper/best resolution of this conflict is in favor of the right to personal privacy, assuming that no one's health or life is being put in jeopardy. In a similar sense, I would give the freedom of speech precedence over a right not to be offended, upset or hurt by something people say, again as long as no one's health or life is being put at risk.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

To make this issue more vivid and to expand it beyond the specific issue of trans sex workers, here is a list of things I have heard (mostly in online commercial sex forums) mongers say they find unacceptable (definitely and strongly wish to avoid) in their p4p partners:

1 - Women who have had any sort of cosmetic surgery (who are not "100% natural")
2 - Women who are in serious long-term relationships (have an SO or husband or wife)
3 - Women who are lesbians or bisexual
4 - Women who are pregnant
5 - Women who are mothers
6 - Women over a certain age (I have heard as low as 23)
7 - Women who are politically very liberal or very conservative
8 - Women who are feminists
9 - Women who have or have had cancer
10 - Women who have or have had STDs (in general or specific ones)
11 - Women who are being coerced to do sex work
12 - Women who use "hard drugs" or have ever done so
13 - Women who are of certain races or have any significant "blood"/heritage from certain races
14 - Ditto re certain ethnicities or nationalities or religions
15 - Women who are vegetarians
16 - Women who like Star Trek better than Star Wars
17 - Women who are too educated or not educated enough
18 - Women who masturbate (ok, that is an odd one which I only heard once and is presumably unusual)
19 - Women who dye their hair
20 - Women with tattoos and/or body piercings
21 - Women who are post-op trans (the case that got all this started)

Btw, the above list is in no particular order, just the order in which I recalled them.

Just to give this bare bones list a bit of color and specificity, re items 13 and 14 above, there was a monger on a board in the US, self-identified as a Texan, who frequently insisted that he would never want to be with any woman who was not a 100% native born Caucasian Protestant (no Jews or Catholics for him) and either politically conservative or apolitical. I suspect that he was/is a KKK member.

So, I invite all to consider whether or not a monger has the unlimited right to know all such personal information about a sex worker that would be required for him to make sure that his "welfare and peace of mind" is "upheld" (using @Ches 's words). Or is he only entitled to know some of those things? Or none of them? Is a sex worker obligated to disclose all such information that *might* be of importance to a potential customer? Or only if asked? Can she decline to answer? Can she lie? (Fwiiw, you'd be hard pressed to find a sex worker who has a SO who has not lied about it to customers, i.e., #2. And of course lying about age, #6, is pretty much the default assumption.)

-Ww

 

[Soapysoap66]

Paying for sex and having these kind of standards you list seem to not go so well together.
Having preferences is fine but if you are going out of your way to find a sex worker who absolutely must not be vegetarian and she must not be a feminist and not have tattoos you are over-complicating things in my opinion. You aren't marrying them, you are having sex for x amount of minutes and in many cases will never see them again. Unless it's a super expensive service where you more or less can demand stuff because there's an obscene amount of money involved.

I don't think a monger is entitled to know most of the things you list. I think they are certainly entitled to ask, but in most situations by the time you have the opportunity to ask, you will have already payed for the service.

Generally it's up to the monger to select a service/provider that seems most likely to fit with their preferences, and then hope that the provider has enough smarts to not work when pregnant/sick with STD etc.

I feel that trans gender should be disclosed though as that is a big deal for many people. If a monger who does not want to have sex with a trans gender pays for service without disclosure and then somehow finds out during play that could be traumatizing and possibly turn violent under certain circumstances.

 

[Sudsy]

The only one on that list that's seriously troubling for me is #11 - if a woman is being coerced, I want no part of the situation.

#10 only applies if the STD is active - disclosure of active STDs really should be a legal requirement, which of course would only be possible in an environment where prostitution was fully legalised, regulated, and sex workers afforded the protection of the law..

 

[Ches]

By post above, I didn't mean all the details about the SW's life. I was refering to the sex/gender of the SW. I believe that she is ought to disclose wether she is naturally born female or a trans.

Some men find it traumatic to have fun and learn afterwards that they have had a session with a trans. I believe that their preferrence must be upheld and the trans must be very honest, after all there is and will always be a market for them.

 

[User#6541]

By post above, I didn't mean all the details about the SW's life. I was refering to the sex/gender of the SW. I believe that she is ought to disclose wether she is naturally born female or a trans.

Some men find it traumatic to have fun and learn afterwards that they have had a session with a trans. I believe that their preferrence must be upheld and the trans must be very honest, after all there is and will always be a market for them.

im not sure i 100% agree with either of you, but i do have a question:

why do you think a man would find traumatic such experience ?

Im usually on the lurker's side (unless tagged) , but this particular topic is of a personal interest.

 

[Wwanderer]

By post above, I didn't mean all the details about the SW's life. I was refering to the sex/gender of the SW. I believe that she is ought to disclose wether she is naturally born female or a trans.

To be clear, I did not mean to attribute ANY opinion to you other than the one you explicitly stated in that post which I quoted at the top of the thread, and I don't mean to suggest that anyone at all does or should regard all of the things I listed (and others) as equivalent. One could have all sorts of different opinions of different ones of them. Rather I quoted you both as a segue from one thread to another and to put the trans issue in the broader context of what a sex worker should or should not feel obligated to reveal.

For example,

Some men find it traumatic to have fun and learn afterwards that they have had a session with a trans. I believe that their preferrence must be upheld and the trans must be very honest, after all there is and will always be a market for them.

There are definitely men who would find it traumatic to "learn afterwards" that their p4p partner was Jewish (some extreme anti-semites regard them as disgusting sub-humans) or pregnant (badly weirds out some squeamish guys) or are lesbians (which some consider disgusting), just to name three examples. Do you/we take their trauma equally seriously? Do you/we feel that a Jewish or pregnant or lesbian escort is equally obligated to be "very honest" etc? If not, why not? After all their will also always be a market for Jewish or pregnant or lesbian sex workers too.

My point is not so much that one view or another is right but that it is a very complex issue. My personal opinion is that sex workers have no obligation to reveal any of those three things to their customers.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

The only one on that list that's seriously troubling for me is #11 - if a woman is being coerced, I want no part of the situation.

I am similar. I take #11 and #16 seriously. When I was younger, less experienced and not as opened minded as I am now, I considered #16 non-negotiable but now, although I still have preferences, I can take a live and let live attitude towards Trekies with whom I share a bed.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I feel that trans gender should be disclosed though as that is a big deal for many people. If a monger who does not want to have sex with a trans gender pays for service without disclosure and then somehow finds out during play that could be traumatizing and possibly turn violent under certain circumstances.

I agree with most of what you wrote in the post I quote and think that the large majority of mongers take a moderate perspective on many of the things I listed; they may prefer women without (or with), say, tattoos, but it is not a deal breaker for them and certainly not something that would traumatize them...but a few mongers might and more than a few have strong feelings about some of the other items I listed.

So, let me ask you; if (as per your quote above) you feel that trans gender is such a big deal for many people that it ought to be disclosed, is there anything else on the list that you also think ought to be disclosed? Or is it in a special category all by itself in your opinion?

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

why do you think a man would find traumatic such experience ?

Imo this is a quite important question, and I hope that those who would find the realization that they had been with a trans partner traumatic will give us their answer(s)? I have a hypothesis, but I will keep it to myself for now.

-Ww

 

[Anna Summer]

I don't really know how to express it right or put my thoughts into words, sorry for the confusion...

If a transgender woman has done the adjustment operation and everything else such as hormones, breasts etc, she is a women and not trans anymore imo. Why is it such a big deal? These days, the adjustment operations are done in such a way, that the vagina looks real enough. She is a woman and not a man(she wasn't even in the beginning).

 

[Wwanderer]

I don't really know how to express it right or put my thoughts into words, sorry for the confusion...

If a transgender woman has done the adjustment operation and everything else such as hormones, breasts etc, she is a women and not trans anymore imo. Why is it such a big deal? These days, the adjustment operations are done in such a way, that the vagina looks real enough. She is a woman and not a man(she wasn't even in the beginning).

I disagree *only* with the part of your post I made bold; it seems to me that you expressed it in words very well.

-Ww

 

[namae]

Hard to see how Ches' initial comment sidetracked the discussion here.

Isn't she is just making some very practical points that: (a) a person who has undergone full sex reassignment surgery isn't going to be as functional as someone born a woman or man; and (b) rightly or wrongly, some customers have prejudices/preferences.

Look at the same issue from a different perspective, should a FTM Shinjuku host disclose his "status" before he takes the customers money at the love hotel?

 

[Wwanderer]

Hard to see how Ches' initial comment sidetracked the discussion here.

Who said anything about her sidetracking the discussion? The reason I created a new thread was for the discussion of a related but different topic, namely the general issue of the conflict between a sex worker's privacy rights and a p4p customer's rights to know things about his sex partners. Thus the title of the thread, which doesn't even mention trans gender.

(a) a person who has undergone full sex reassignment surgery isn't going to be as functional as someone born a woman or man

A tangential point, but this isn't necessarily true. Ciswomen, say, can be born without or lose some sexual "functions", as @User#8628 pointed out in the other thread.

-Ww

 

[Ches]

why would a man would find traumatic such experience ?

I believe the best people to answer that are the men who have experienced it for themselves.

However, there has previously been a big issue in the Philippines about it. It has been very very famous that it has been all over the new for months and threatened the exercises for US soldiers in the phil.

The death of Jennifer Laude occurred on October 11, 2014 in Olongapo, Philippines, when the 26-year-old Filipino transwoman was killed by 19-year-old Private First Class Joseph Scott Pemberton, who had been unaware that Laude was transgender.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jennifer_Laude
-wikipedia

This is not a P4P scenario. This is just a normal bar pick-up/hook-up scenario. If only the trans has admitted outright her "secret", then it wouldn't have led into something as brutal as this. The guy isn't even paying. How much more if this is a P4P where men are paying for services. And hence, service must be regarded in highest possible means. Full specifications and everything coz the man is paying.

A little bit of honesty would have prevented this death.

 

[User#16452]

.

 

[Curacao]

Personally I think it is fine if a buyer has particular foibles to ask a provider about them and I think providers have a (moral?) Responsibility to answer honestly. sexuality is weird and everyone has different hangups. If someone doesnt like having sex with people who have the letter f in their middle name its fair for that person to ask a provider if they have an f in their middle name. On the particular issue of post op transgendered providers clearly some people might have a hang up with having sex with a provider who might have been born with a dick. They can still be non-judgemental in ordinary life but if they are buying sex I think it is fair to ask politely and get an honest answer

On the issue of whether I think it is weird for someone to find someone else attractive enough to want to have sex with them but tonot want to have sex with them if tthat were born with a dick, yeah I think that is well weird. But given that my predilections are 100% weird (I like new halves and cross dressers but not, generally, men; I like women of all types - young, old, thin, fat, pretty, not so pretty, hairy, not hairy - but especially women who like having sex with other men; and I like sloppy seconds and snowballs), I apportion no blame to people who have weird sexual tastes.

Edit: as usual mobile interface as garbled the above but hopefully it is someway intelligible...

 

[User#6541]

I believe the best people to answer that are the men who have experienced it for themselves.

However, there has previously been a big issue in the Philippines about it. It has been very very famous that it has been all over the new for months and threatened the exercises for US soldiers in the phil.

The death of Jennifer Laude occurred on October 11, 2014 in Olongapo, Philippines, when the 26-year-old Filipino transwoman was killed by 19-year-old Private First Class Joseph Scott Pemberton, who had been unaware that Laude was transgender.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jennifer_Laude
-wikipedia

This is not a P4P scenario. This is just a normal bar pick-up/hook-up scenario. If only the trans has admitted outright her "secret", then it wouldn't have led into something as brutal as this. The guy isn't even paying. How much more if this is a P4P where men are paying for services. And hence, service must be regarded in highest possible means. Full specifications and everything coz the man is paying.

A little bit of honesty would have prevented this death.

Fair enough, i guess ill have to wait for the brave man's answer then.

Regarding the news article, did not know about that.
Maybe honesty would've saved her...maybe not. Thats a very extreme case you are linking.
Horribly as it sounds, people kills people (don't freak out just yet, people also loves people).

If honesty would've saved her, what would've saved the 48 girls from the green river killer's case?.

I can think of several historical examples for when being different meant death,
which i wont mention , some things are not to be discussed in an online forum.


Said that, i still partially agree with your point of view.

 

[User#8628]

I think if it's a disease that can be contracted it should be told.
Also if they have sexual organs or big scars or tattoos on their body that are unexpected and might shock a client.

Something that happened in a long ago past and that doesn't effect the clients if they don't find out... No. I think workers have all right to keep that to themselves!

In a serious relationship i'd like my partner to tell me such a things as a matter of trust (i wanna know all the big things they went through in their past) but it wouldn't make any difference in how i feel about them.

 

[User#8628]

I don't think providers would have to disclose to everyone but i think if someone specifically asks them they should not lie.

Lying gives other people an unrealistic view about the world and it's not a good thing. Keeping things you don't wanna shout out private as long as nobody's digging into it is a different matter.

 

[Anna Summer]

I don't think providers would have to disclose to everyone but i think if someone specifically asks them they should not lie.

Lying gives other people an unrealistic view about the world and it's not a good thing. Keeping things you don't wanna shout out private as long as nobody's digging into it is a different matter.

I 100% agree with that!
Now let's hope all you guys don't ask us providers if we were 'trans' or so haha. That would be awkward.

 

[User#8628]

I don't know the details of this case beyond what you have linked here but I do find the use of "admitted" and "honesty" to be interesting. Did the woman lie outright about her birth gender? Or was it that the man made an assumption?

While it is perhaps not an unfair assumption to make that someone appears female that they were born female, I do think that if someone has a particular "dislike" in bed then it is upon themselves to ensure that they do not willingly enter into a situation involving that, asking outright if need be.

Lying of course would still not be a justification for such an action. It is clear that the man here had some mental issues and if the woman had been to his "preference" he might have just as easily found something else to his disliking and murdered her still.

I very much agree with this

 

[dreams]

Personal experience: Once in Singapore, I went to a bar in the infamous "orchid Towers", without knowledge of the different bars' specificities. I ended in a "trans" bar, but did nor realise it, I was young and horny, and got mesmerized by the women there, and their big breasts. and let myself be hooked, went up to my hotel room with one of them,. I did the deal, but realized half way that through ,that she was a trans. What did I do? Scream, run away, call the police?? No, finished the deal, exchanged a few kind words, pay her, and sent her back. The following day, I inquired about which bar I should go to, and went to Ipanema, where I found nice no trans Vietnamese lovely young and slim women.

What conclusions:
1) Sorry to say, but there are differences between trans and real (= born) women, even given the progress of medicine and surgery. The attitude, also is different, I definitively found out that she was a trans, so there must have been a reason for me to find these differences. .No judgment, nor right or worng, but just stating my facts.
2) Was I "disturbed" ? Not at all, just realizing that I just preferred "real" women. My choice, again, not a judgment. Like when I say " I like Japanese women more than Chinese", for instance. Or that I prefer BMW to Mercedes. (Both are good cars).

So to the initial question whether the provider should proactively disclose: No, not in my opinion. Up to the monger to make his own checks, and if this is important to him, just ask. If I want a woman with big breast at a brothel, I ask the mama-san for it. Similarly I can say, not a trans please. Not a big deal.
And last, when asked, should the provider lie: No, no more than when asked if she does this or that. At the end a monger-provider deal is a business deal, and each party has the right to know what it gets from the deal.

And last, to comment of Wv list, yes, No 16 of course, and I think we should add underage people, whichever gender...

 

[Soapysoap66]

I agree with most of what you wrote in the post I quote and think that the large majority of mongers take a moderate perspective on many of the things I listed; they may prefer women without (or with), say, tattoos, but it is not a deal breaker for them and certainly not something that would traumatize them...but a few mongers might and more than a few have strong feelings about some of the other items I listed.

So, let me ask you; if (as per your quote above) you feel that trans gender is such a big deal for many people that it ought to be disclosed, is there anything else on the list that you also think ought to be disclosed? Or is it in a special category all by itself in your opinion?

-Ww

I do sort of think it falls into a more special category, at least if compared against the other things you listed. I'm not sure I can express why though.
It just feels like it would have the most potential negative impact if you find out the wrong way so to speak.
Being coerced is a big deal too of course, but that's not really something you can ask, because if you ask the place where they work you are most likely to be thrown out or worse,
and if you ask the provider they would probably not admit it. And of course no establishment would ever be forthcoming with that.

 

[Wwanderer]

I do think that if someone has a particular "dislike" in bed then it is upon themselves to ensure that they do not willingly enter into a situation involving that, asking outright if need be.

Should the word "willingly" in the above quote be something like "unknowingly"?

In any case, I very much agree with your point here. Preferences are one thing, but if a guy has really strong feelings against having a p4p partner of some particular sort, so strong that he will be really freaked out or furious or traumatized, then it is up to him to find out in advance and/or warn the sex worker before money changes hands or any action starts. E.g., he at least needs to say something like, "I'd go nuts and flip out if I found out that you are pregnant (or Jewish or a lesbian or whatever) after having sex with you." It is absurd imo for anyone to expect sex workers to guess how a given customer feels about one of the factors I listed (and many others I didn't) and even more absurd and unjust to hold her responsible if he has made an incorrect assumption about her.

This would be my answer to someone who feels like @roots reggae expressed in the other thread. If you feel that mistaking a transwoman for a ciswoman would be horrible or traumatic for you, you should at least mention the fact to any potential partners and probably should ask them outright. Why should the burden be on them to guess that you might care and proactively inform you?

-Ww