Nampa baby steps questions

Discussion in 'Nampa/PUA' started by tokyosteven77, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Over the past week or so I have made a concerted effort to set aside some time and properly try some nampa, including a few dedicated loitering 'sessions' around stations, and a few cafe incidents.

    Probably made like 10 or so approaches overall. No actual results yet, but in a couple cases I was pleased to engage in conversation with full eye-contact and smiles. Probably could have got a Line in those cases if I was a bit more experienced. I'm coming from zero really so that was quite encouraging, as I kind of expected 75% of girls to just blank me, but that never actually happened (and only one girl seemed irritated).

    Of the other cases, there were a few where I can see clearly where my approach was poor, and I am trying to learn from those incidents, so that's ok too. But there were also a few cases where I don't really know how to interpret what happened. Was hoping I might get some feedback from some more experienced guys on those...


    Case 1: The full-on Blowout... or was it?

    I think this was my first effort. I specifically walked into a club by myself to give it a go. Was not a lot of girls I was interested in, but was one really cute girl who was conveniently standing next to me chatting with her friend. I noticed she wasn't drinking, and i think i just said 'hi, would you like a drink' (I know, a terrible line), and then kind of raised my bottle shaking it a little to make it clear. She responded by looking kinda irritated, briskly shaking her head, and then avoiding eye contact. Ouch I thought, but fair enough as it was a lame approach. So I moved on.

    However... a bit later, when I was the other side of the dance floor I had this weird thing where I felt like she was looking at me, but i really couldn't actually tell if she was looking at me or not. She was definitely staring across somewhere in my vicinity, just genuinely couldn't work out if she was looking at me, or something/someone to the side of me. This happened several times. Anywhere else in the world I would not think she might have been looking at me, but is this possible a Japanese thing? Some kind of 'diffuse stare' / slightly off angle stare phenomena?


    Case 2: Initial signs, but then just one-word answers, gave up

    Actually there were a few cases like this, but I will just explain one.

    Was in a Starbucks/Tsutaya, sat next to a cute girl who was reading. Did notice one glance from her when she got up to get another book. Wanted to strike up a conversation, but didn't have the balls so resorted to an excuse (asked her if she could watch my stuff while I went and got another drink). Was fairly encouraged as I made her giggle/smile with my funny Japanese, and when I came back I said thanks and we exchanged smiles again. Then a moment later, I tried to start conversation by asking her if it was her day off. She just replied 'hai' and kind of looked away. So that was that.

    So in these situations I basically never persist, just figure that anything further would come across creepy. For sure, if she was western I would absolutely take it as a clear 'not interested', but is this maybe a cultural issue? Should I have persisted, at least asked another question? Is there more of a tendency amongst Japanese girls to give one word answers at least for the first few questions?


    Other general observations and other questions

    I watched Sinapse's long intro video and it actually gave me a lot of helpful tips and the confidence to give this a go, so thanks if you are reading this.

    I'm finding stations a good place to lurk (as opposed to cafes), as there are a lot of girls often standing around by themselves waiting for someone, and you can approach them before their friend comes along. In contrast, with cafes you have to wait for ages for someone to sit near you (as Sinapse pointed out), and you cant just move on if it goes nowhere, plus I actually feel more self-conscious as other people might be listening. I could also imagine (I didn't yet) approaching someone waiting next to me at a crossing, but I'm definitely not confident enough to actually approach someone just walking down the street. Even in incidents where I got very clear eye contact / multiple glances when walking head-on down the street, I just couldn't think how to react. (Actually not just in the last days, I never in my life had the balls to ever do anything in these situations). Any suggestions? I know its a stupid question but I really struggle with this situation, even though it feels like the most clear sign you can get, I just never know what to do, and always regret it after. Which believe me at my age is a lot of regret.

    With bars and clubs its definitely fairly easy to make an approach, but on the other hand the girls are rarely by themselves, and there's usually a bad ratio of girls. Plus I don't have a wing-man (friends all in relationships etc) and not massively happy about going out by myself.

    The other tip I really got a lot from in Sinapse's video was the 'assumed conversation' thing, rather than the fake excuse approach, and generally keeping it very light, not too direct, and not making things intense by complimenting early. I never actually complimented anyone yet, but if I do I think I will more go for 'I like your style/fashion' rather than 'you are so cute/hot' whatever, as I feel that can come across too creepy or sexual if you do that too early.

    Tried around Hachiko a few times, but found it surprisingly unproductive compared to a couple of other places I went. Not sure why, but one reason was that the girls seemed too young. I almost talked to one girl before noticing she had a Disney Little Mermaid bag and was probably like 16, and in one case I actually talked to a girl who turned out to be 14!

    Apologies for the long post. Would definitely appreciate any (brutally honest) feedback if anyone has any thoughts or pointers.
     
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  2. Lukes

    Lukes TAG Member

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    I'm not an expert at all but have experimented a little just for the hell of it. I think on case #2 you screwed yourself a little by asking a yes or no question. If you're going to ask something, make it something that requires a more substantial answer and opens the door for follow on questions.
     
  3. Garcian

    Garcian TAG Member

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    Steve! First of all major kudos for going out there, and even more for sharing your experience.

    For case #2, it sounds like you were a bit too direct, but hard to say without being in your shoes. Going for a more open question might have been the way, like Lukes also said.

    Please keep it up and keep sharing your experiences.
     
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  4. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Thanks, that makes sense. It's just bit hard to get my head around such thinking, as I'm sure if it was a western girl (at least a Brit or an American) and had any interest of all I would have got a bit more than a 'yes'. (In fact even if she wasn't interested, she probably would have said more than that out of politeness). Just hate to feel like im trapping/forcing a girl into a conversation, but I guess I just need to get used to be being a bit more crafty and dominant here.

    Actually now im over thinking it (which I know is stupid and dangerous) but in hindsight actually I figure she was just not interested. The fact that she just immediately went back to her book and carried on reading I can only interpret as a big red 'don't talk to me again'.
     
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  5. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Thanks man, it's definitely not the easiest thing I have ever done!

    Ok interesting... you think asking if it was her day off could have been taken as 'are you free to hang out today'? Shit, yeah... well thats definitely not what I meant, just intended it to be a totally unloaded conversation starter. Hmm, this might be harder than I thought!
     
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  6. Garcian

    Garcian TAG Member

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    Exactly. But I am by no means an expert at this. The only thing I have learned is that it is always good to be a bit vague.

    It is definitely not easy, but rewarding :)
     
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  7. Lukes

    Lukes TAG Member

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    Yeah, I know it's hard to make snap decisions like that. I think you're right about the way western girls would react by comparison. I've found the same to be the case most of the time. As far as "trapping" the girl into a conversation, that's almost what you're wanting to do for a brief moment but at the same time letting them have an out afterwards if they're really not interested.
     
  8. Sinapse

    Sinapse On the streets

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    Just talk to her if you like her. Doesn't really matter if she's looking at you or just near you..

    Seems you're looking for signs from the girl. Much of the time, you won't get any. Instead, focus on your own desire and interest. If you're interested, go up and start talking to them regardless of where they're looking and what they're doing. Most girls aren't going to pay much attention to you until you make contact with them & capture it!

    Yes.
    But, resist just barraging girls with questions. Use more statements and talk about yourself as well. A girl who doesn't know you often won't feel comfortable answering a bunch of questions. She will, however, be more comfortable if you're just being light hearted and talking about yourself, her, the environment, etc

    Yes. Just keep talking, don't expect much from them for the first minute or so
     
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  9. User#8628

    User#8628 TAG Member

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    This is a really good point. Its uncomfortable and boring to get always the same questions from strangers but if you tell about yourself she feels like she's getting to know you.

    About the sign thing, i will definitely shamelessly stare at a guy if i'm interested, but if i haven't noticed him yet i obviously can't do that.
    Also it doesn't always mean anything of course, sometimes i look at someone i'm not interested in because my eyes are wandering around and they mistake it as a sign.
    Japanese girls might just stare at a foreigner because they are not that common, not because they like him per se.
     
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  10. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Thanks for the advice!

    Yeah totally. I really need to unlearn that. Just have so much less anxiety when there seems to be some kind of hint or sign, but I guess this is one of the key differences between game and 'standard' approach, so I really need to get past this.

    Will crack on...
     
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  11. raoxi

    raoxi TAG Member

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    Did you do it in english or jp?
     
  12. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    A mix, but mainly Japanese. I only speak basic Japanese though, but needless to say the conversations were not long enough to get into any deep topics...
     
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  13. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Ok, figure I might as well continue documenting my nampa 'journey'. Maybe it provides some learnings, inspiration or possibly just entertainment. Any feedback more than welcome.

    Approaches 11-12

    (I didn't count the first 10 exactly, but will round it to 10, and will try to keep count from here)

    The next session (Thursday) I had a total nightmare, seemed to take a big backwards step. Blew an opening I created in Starbucks (approach #11), she seemed interested, but I didn't follow up quick enough and she walked. Then later on just hung around a couple stations but got total paralysis and failed to make any approaches. Was really overthinking everything, and lost the 'fuck it' mentality that I had before.

    Friday took a 'rest' day, deliberately didn't think about making approaches. Had been going at it a bit hard and really beat myself up about Thursday.

    Saturday night, spent about an hour between 10-11pm at a pretty busy station area, rich pickings I figure. But again, my dithering causes me to blow several opportunities. So lame. First, a girl really eyeballs me despite talking to some guy, who I assumed was her BF... but he walks off, so now I'm like 'ok, go go go', but instead I dither again ('composing myself'), and before I do anything her friends appear.

    Then see a girl on a bench, looking really busy with a pen and notepad (great, I even have a conversation topic), but decide to take a few laps to 'compose myself', get back, and boom... two guys are now sitting next to her and talking and she is giggling. A third approach opportunity is also wasted, and then out of desperation I start following a girl who walks out of the station and down the street, but after just walking behind her for a while and not having the balls to go up beside her (to be fair she was walking super fast), I start feeling like a perv and pull back. At this point I'm really feeling shit and having a big existential 'what the fuck are you doing' moment.

    But then wander around some side streets. Nothing around but maybe after 10 mins spot a very attractive girl going into a small street, not an empty street but not packed either. After my pathetic dithering I am determined to try this, and go straight in. Will spare you the suspense though - there is no happy ending here - but I did at least have the balls to walk up beside her and start talking (#12).

    She was a 9.0 and kinda bitchy because of it, but I could also imagine that she might have just been having a bad day In any case, she was rather frosty. I asked her what shes doing and shes like 'kairu'. We walk a bit more, can't remember what I said but she's basically still like 'kairu'. So then I'm like 'is it bad I'm talking to you' with some charming smile etc and at this point she lowers her barrier and actually seems to give me a little opportunity, we're now stopped at a crossing, full eye contact and she's like 'what do you want to talk about?', but I can't put the right Japanese together, say something in English which clearly annoys her, and then try to express in terrible Japanese 'just friendly conversation'. Her barrier goes back up again, and I receive a very final sounding 'kairu'. Defeated, I end it with 'hai wakarimashita'. If my Japanese was better and I was less panicked, I would have / should have teased her about her frostiness / scary-bitch thing and I actually think in a parallel universe I could have got something there, definitely had her attention for a moment.

    But the reality of this universe, is that I'm very, very far off getting anything in such a situation, due to my Japanese level and high anxiety before approach, which makes smooth talking / quick thinking really difficult, especially in a second language. At least with a frosty 9.0. Guess I need to stick with nice 7's, like the ones before who gave me much more time and encouragement.

    Overall though, I felt pleased with myself for approaching a girl while walking, and the night did not feel like a total failure. But still, the harsh reality is that after ~12 approaches I got nothing.

    Started studying Japanese for the first time in years... at least I finally have some motivation.
     
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  14. Lukes

    Lukes TAG Member

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    Thanks for sharing your continuing journey (not sure what to call it). Improving your Japanese language skills is probably one of the most important things you can do if you want to up your chances. The perfect example of why it's important is when that girl gave you the opportunity to talk but you couldn't. Good on you for trying though.
     
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  15. Garcian

    Garcian TAG Member

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    Thanks again for sharing your experiences/progress. It think it is important that you regard all of it as progress, as it will give you more approaches, a better feeling, etc.

    As for the first two, yes, timing is an issue. Don't go too hard on yourself though. If you don't feel ready, then you don't feel ready. There is no magic behind this, just right timing and chemistry.

    Regarding the #12: Actually, I have had that experience too. I walked up to a girl at night (I was walking home from a bar, pretty loaded, and she was walking home as well). I managed to slow her down, but I also made the mistake (at least I think it was a mistake) to tell her that I just want a friendly conversation. That got her guard up, as in your story.
    I think that if a girl decides to talk to you, she wants you to have a plan. Go drink, go eat, talk about [topic], go to a love hotel, at least something.

    Actually, in general, I don't even think a lack of Japanese is always a big problem. The best-looking girl I ever managed to pull out of a bar directly into my house after a few drinks responded very well to my introduction "Hey, do you speak English?". I can hold a conversation in Japanese, no problem, but on that particular day I decided to try something else. After all, many many many girls here, especially those that are not limited to Japanese men, are really interested in English, practicing their English, etc.

    But on the street, full Japanese might be better.
     
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  16. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Yeah this seems to be the case. Actually, although I havent gotten any real results yet, I do actually feel I've achieved something kinda huge on a personal level with the fact I can just go up to girls now, pretty much anywhere. (Tried #13 by talking to a girl passing by me in Shibuya 109 yesterday). That I think is the biggest hurdle crossed, I probably couldnt have even imagined doing this even just a couple years ago.

    Definitely not saying I'm gonna be the next Sinapse or anything, but I'm decent looking and I like to think I can be very charming if I'm in the mood, so I think I can make this work and will find my own way, but only if I really improve my Japanese .
     
    #16 tokyosteven77, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
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  17. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    I think thats true, I mean the chemistry thing. For now I'm kinda backing away from the numbers-game type approach and instead more just looking for 'targets' who genuinely have something about them which captivates me, otherwise I know there probably won't be chemistry and I won't turn on the charm. That actually results in surprisingly low numbers, like only 2 girls in 1 hour in Shiubuya yesterday (one I approached but the other was on the phone). But I guess I wasn't particularly horny yesterday, if I was the net probably would have been wider.

    That's interesting. I think I have a mental barrier here. I'm very much raised/trained to be very polite/respectful, and I'm totally uncomfortable with suggesting outright 'hey lets have some drinks and then maybe go to a hotel', and I feel like everything I've been taught so far is that (attractive) women just won't respond to that, and are never intentionally looking for casual sex. I don't think I got it fundamentally wrong (or have I?) but from reading about pickup I've definitely had my eyes opened to what is possible, and I do somehow need to recalibrate my thinking. But I'm honestly kinda struggling to even to identify what I should be aiming at here.

    I think it depends on the girl. If its a girl who is interested in foreigners, probably has some small English ability, possibly studied abroad etc, then definitely its not an issue. And theres a lot of girls in this category in Tokyo for sure, and even some very attractive ones too (although I agree with Sinapse to some extent, that they would tend to less good looking). But #12 was definitely not this type, she actually got annoyed when I spoke English. Frankly its no real loss, we probably would not have got on, but still ultimately, I want to have control in situations like that and have me doing the deciding, not her :)
     
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  18. Sinapse

    Sinapse On the streets

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    I 100% agree with finding something which captivates you. Relationships can't very well work out without that initial spark or affinity. I can't help but wonder, however, if you're placing too much thought and emphasis on finding that captivating thing or affinity before the approach. How reliable do you think you can determine someone's personality from just something they are wearing or doing? I am consistently surprised when I talk to people who I think are a certain way, and who actually have quite a few interesting things about them I would never have guessed. Some of the best and strongest relationships I've had have been with girls I at first thought I'd never like or get along with but uncovered and unearthed rather unique and exciting aspects of them.

    In some ways, I think this part of game is incredibly important. Building and fostering the conversational space which both allows and inspires women to open up and share those peculiarities, curiosities, vulnerabilities, quirks, and generally fun aspects faster than they normally do.

    For myself, an approach is cheap. I'll approach constantly. However, I won't always get the contact information, invite her on a date, or sleep with them. That all comes down to the chemistry - can I find something exciting about her? An approach is a test for affinity. Otherwise you might just be kiting (avoiding) action and trying to be a little too psychic before you actually know anything about the person
     
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  19. User#8628

    User#8628 TAG Member

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    Here you have quoted EVERTHING thats wrong with PUA.
    Basically, you want to be the one to decide she has to sleep with you.
    I don't mind getting nampa, i'm a bit of a shy person so its maybe the best way to meet a guy that i could be interested in.
    Hell, i might even shut down a nampa attempt at first but then look back and change my mind. But what i really don't appreciate is guys that i'm not into following be around. Sure, i dont mind anyone trying to talk to me, but some guys can not accept a no for an answer. Like how you're calling a girl "bitchy" for not giving you the time of the day. You are not entitled to her attention. She told you she wants to go home and you keep bothering her.
    And yes "friendly conversation" is the most boring thing you could offer, especially if your Japanese is below conversational. If i get nampa from a guy who i really lust for, what i want to do is go to a hotel. Maybe some Japanese girls would be scared off by something so direct, but offering drinks is not something scandalous. Basically when you offer drinks you offer the same as "friendly conversation" but in a comfortable environment instead of in the middle of the street.

    Try to place yourself in the girl's shoes for a while. She isn't "bitchy" because she knows she is sooooo pretty, but because she gets bothered by guys constantly and can not quietly walk home, and a stranger talks to her in broken Japanese in a quiet street. She is SCARED. She doesn't have to be polite.
     
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  20. Garcian

    Garcian TAG Member

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    Drinks, Karaoke, coffee (isn't it lovely that the cafes here open until late night?), there are many options that are not scandalous at all, right.

    Thinking about it, if a girl approached me on the street just to talk, I would probably also get bored quick. I would also ask her if there is something specific she wants to talk about, I guess.
     
    #20 Garcian, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
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  21. MikeH

    MikeHMikeH is a Verified Member Presumably Male

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  22. Garcian

    Garcian TAG Member

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    I laughed, brah. Loudly.
     
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  23. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Your right. I guess in part its a comfort zone thing for now, kinda trying to stick to girls that appear to be my 'type', and thus hoping I'm more likely to be their type too. I'm definitely not at a point that approaches have zero 'cost' so I guess my rationale comes from trying to minimize 'risk'. But yeah, with this approach I'm obviously not maximizing opportunity and I'm also limiting the likelihood of new experiences outside of my comfort zone, so I totally hear you and believe me I love the idea of being able to casually approach anyone that somehow catches my attention, in the spirit of just seeing what happens... definitely something to aim for.
     
  24. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Ok, feel a tad bruised from Alices post, and felt the need to write a lengthy defence…

    First of, fair enough, I can see why the quoted statement could cause offence. But partially, behind the bravado / attempted humour, what I was saying is that I would like to be able to talk to a girl, but also walk away unbruised emotionally if its clear that the vibe is not there. It would be nice if I could make that call, rather than getting shot down. But also partially, yes I was just being a guy, so guilty as charged.

    I absolutely have never done this and would never do so (persist, follow around). You do seem to have over-inferred about that. If anything my problem is more like not being persistent enough, out of politeness.

    Indeed, its totally understandable that girls would at first have some barrier up, especially when they are getting hit on 20 times a day. I have no problem with that and expect it to some degree (and I’m genuinely surprised about how nice most of the girls in Tokyo have been so far). But I think its fair to say that guys have to walk a fine line here, you have to probe that barrier to an extent to see if she's just putting up that initial filter, or if she's actually just not interested. To an extent its the same in bars and clubs too (and for me this whole ‘pick up’ thing is just saying you don't have to follow the convention of only approaching in bars / clubs). What I'm aiming at in future is just to be a little bit playful, smiley, maybe tease her for being a little uptight etc, and see if she opens up. If she doesn’t, I will walk away.

    You said it yourself, you may also shut down a nampa instinctively, even though you might then notice your kinda attracted to the guy. So I definitely think some degree of persistence (barrier 'probing') is reasonable. Its obviously a fine line though, and no doubt there are lots of nasty guys that don't respect that line, and also plenty of nice guys who misjudge it.

    In my case, the whole thing probably lasted less than a minute. She definitely wasn't ‘SCARED’. It was a side street, but just off a big street, it wasn't crowded, but it wasn’t empty, there were open shops on the street, it was well lit, there were people ahead and behind us. The conversation ended on the main street at a crossing. She was talking to me, albeit frosty, but I could see there was potential and she did open up a bit as I described. When I gave a lame response and blew the opportunity, she made it clear 'ok times up', and I walked away. I am absolutely comfortable with what I did in that regard, I really don't think she felt harassed. I do kinda feel like you are judging me here based on very little info.

    It definitely wasn't like ‘I'm going home, I'm scared, leave me alone’, it was more like ‘I'm going home, and looking at you, I seriously doubt you got anything to tempt me otherwise, but ok... what have you got?’. So I tried a little, and when she made it clear she didn't want to talk further I walked.

    I stand by what I said, she was a bit 'bitchy'. Sure yes, partially because she has to deal with getting hit on all the time (and as I said, I sensed she might have just been having a bad day). In anycase, 100% agree, she doesn't owe me anything, including politeness. But likewise, I am entitled to approach her. As I have experienced, some girls are much nicer about it even when they are not interested. Naturally I am going to have a more positive view of those girls than her.

    Some guys would also point out ‘Hey think about the guy, it takes balls and courage, give the guy a break etc’. I'm not even going to use that argument, because I genuinely believe the girl doesn't owe you anything. But the bottom line is she was by far more ‘bitchy’ then all other girls I approached. I accept that is her right, but I also think I’m entitled to consider her 'bitchy', because I don't feel I pushed too hard, was rude, persistent, whatever. She is also entitled to consider me a loser :)

    And I also stand by the following: some (absolutely not all) very attractive women can form 'bitchy' personalities because they have had people (not just guys) falling over backwards for them their entire life, haven’t formed any sense of appreciation, gratitude or respect for others, and instead develop a sense of entitlement. Again I repeat ‘some’. I'd like to hear a guy disagree with that. (Of course, I've also met ‘some’ extremely good looking guys who treat girls terribly, for similar reasons).

    In general though, I can understand your assumptions. Even to me ‘pickup’ generally triggers images like this. For the record, I am definitely not coming at this from that whole US-style frat-boy arsehole / angry-nerd / misogynistic 'philosophy'. I don’t identify with it at all. Without wanting to sound sycophantic, this is why I got inspired by Sinapse’s videos as he was stressing win-win situations, approaching girls in a laid back style without expectation etc.


    You are totally right here. This was lame, but I will comment on that another time.
     
    #24 tokyosteven77, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
  25. tokyosteven77

    tokyosteven77 TAG Member

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    Ok yeah the 'friendly conversation' thing... FWIW it was kind of meant semi-humorously / ironically, like obviously I'm not just going to stop a girl in the street to request a friendly conversation, and I guess also an attempt to kind of poke fun at her for being uptight. But in hindsight, even if I had said it properly in Japanese, the attempted irony/humour wouldn't have come through anyway. So yeah, overall it was just lame.

    Anyway, enough about #12. I have new failures to dwell on. Girl #14 today, probably my smoothest effort so far, I can still see her now, standing inside Shibuya JR waving at me smiling and giggling, like a super cute anime character... as I walk away empty handed (and confused). Don't actually understand how I still didn't get a frickin LINE :banghead:
     
    #25 tokyosteven77, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017

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