Need a bit of feedback and advice on recent dates

[Sortman]

Hi all,

I recently came to Japan for vacation and wanted to gain some experience dating. I've managed to set up 3 dates for this week via Tinder, but I am a bit confused on the results and feel like I'm doing something horribly wrong. Yesterday's went something like this...

--- start ---

We had been talking (phone call) on Line for the past few days because I wanted to try and create an tense but fun/exciting atmosphere (since I don't know Japanese well and she doesn't know English too well). At some point I suggested to hang out, and we decided on Karaoke somewhere in Ikebukuro. So fast forward to yesterday->

I met her at Ikebukuro station, but she had to find me because I was not 100% able to figure out what she looked like in real life. Probably my mistake, I should've asked... anyhow, it was much easier for her to find me instead because I'm a foreigner and I'm black. So I was planning on holding her hands as soon as we met while talking to her a bit, asking her if she thinks I look cool and teasing her about not being able to wake up early. Unfortunately she pretty much darted towards the direction of karaoke and didn't really pause for long enough after meeting. [ I'm still guessing it's my fault, because I should have just gone for her hands, but I was also a bit hesitant because I'm not sure if she'd be annoyed instead of happy about it. I need to work on my confidence and just go for it! ] I was still able to tease her and whatnot during out walk to the place, so there's at least a minor victory...

When we got to the karaoke place, I pretty much had to let her take the lead because I had no idea how the system worked. She was a karaoke buff so she had some sort of card she beeped in with, and said we had to pick drinks. [ At this point I was sorta curing myself for not knowing enough Japanese, because I really wanted to lead the situation, but couldn't. I guess this is one of the limitations of being a foreigner. ] After all that, we went into the elevator and up into the karaoke room.

So when we got into the room, she sat at the back (directly across from the display, near a curved part of the couch) so I wasn't able to immediately sit right next to her as I'd hoped. [ I fixed this over time and eventually ended up side-by-side, but again it was a really frustrating experience and realization that I suck at this. This drives and motivates me to practice more. ]

Ok so here's the crazy thing... we were there for 7 hours. We spent the first half singing and having fun and the other half chatting. [ While we were singing, I tried various times to kino or escalate, but I'm not sure it worked as I'd hoped. I feel like she became very comfortable with me, but that's all. Definitely the wrong feeling...] At some point after we had finished singing and were chatting, I was sort of thinking well fuck it, I'm obviously not going to get anywhere by being indirect so I brought up the topic of Tinder and sex culture in Japan.

Basically I started off by saying that Tinder in Japan is pretty different from America, and that I was wondering if Japanese girls are into sex. [ Note, this was a super drawn out conversation because of our language barrier. I was constantly using google translate to figure out how to word things properly, but eventually we were able to understand eachother ] She told me that in Japan, most girls on Tinder are not looking for sex and that it's mostly a friend thing or an English learning thing. Honestly I was pretty surprised about this, considering I had heard a lot of talk on here about Japanese girls being fairly sexually open. She also mentioned that most people look down upon ONS and sex outside relationships. To be honest, I don't particularly believe this, but I started to think that she was maybe a super naive-type girl?

I kind of wanted to drive home the point and not leave it as a vague Tinder discussion, so said something along the lines of "Between friends and sex friends, I'm looking more for sex friends". And she said that she personally was only looking for friends or to learn English, and that sex was out of the question. At this point I figured that you couldn't get more direct than that, so I resigned myself to just keeping her a friend. We chatted for a while longer after that, and eventually parted ways because she had another thing she had to do. We'll likely be meeting again next week, since she seemed to be pretty enthusiastic about spending more time hanging out.

--- end ---


Anyhow, I already know that there were multiple points in that engagement where I screwed up and probably many other points I don't even know about that went sideways. But she seemed very different from the type of girls you might see at a bar or a club, and I felt like convincing her to sleep with me would be 100x harder than a typical American Tinder girl. I'm not sure if I'm looking at this wrong, but my other Japanese Tinder date went similarly with the girl being a super studious recent college grad. My next one is a pasty chef who spends a lot of time working and has a normally really busy schedule.

So yea, I would love some feedback/advice on all of this. I feel like I'm just flailing around in a lake haha!

 

[User#8628]

Maybe not hold her hand on the street... it depends on the person and the place (not their own neighborhood is easier for them) but some Japanese people don't like being affectionate in public.

Also yes, tinder isn't THAT sexual in Japan, but she could also be holding back because she didn't want to seem easy, i cant really tell.

 

[TAG Manager]

She told me that in Japan, most girls on Tinder are not looking for sex and that it's mostly a friend thing or an English learning thing.

This part is partly true - Tinder just isn't the same monster in Japan that it is in America for example. I've experimented with Tinder, but found that a lot of girls want to chat or will be willing to meet, but they're resistant to anything more. Others have reported varying successes as evidenced by other members here on TAG. Presentation and appeal are key factors in who you attract and what you can sustain after that key first contact.

In reading your story, my main comment here would be: You were unprepared. If you're planning to take someone somewhere, make sure you have an idea of what you're doing when you get there. Better natural language communication would be better than using a translation tool. I get it, I've been there, it just takes time to get the language down and how to read people here. It's much more rewarding once you've got an insight to the people, language and culture.

 

[TAG Manager]

holding back because she didn't want to seem easy, i cant really tell.

Agree here - hard to tell what her expectations were.

Maybe not hold her hand on the street... it depends on the person and the place (not their own neighborhood is easier for them) but some Japanese people don't like being affectionate in public.

Agree here - but be polite too (i.e. doors, or helping her up/down any stairs, at least offer her your arm). Try one or twice but don't push the issue.

 

[MikeH]

it just takes time to get the language down and how to read people here.

Also if you just speak English then there are many girls who are happy to go out with you for just the free English lessons. One-on-one lessons with native speaker are like six thousands per hour with a language school, and most of the teachers are just going to chat with you, just like your karaoke date. And the date normally includes free drinks and food too!

I know several guys who came to Japan and decided they will only use Japanese in dates. Sure way to pick up your motivation in learning as well as filters out those girls just wanting a volunteer English teacher.

 

[Sortman]

Also yes, tinder isn't THAT sexual in Japan, but she could also be holding back because she didn't want to seem easy, i cant really tell.

Personally I felt like she just wasn't in the mindset. Normally you would be able to at least feel the atmosphere, but here it just seemed like super friendly and bubbly. It almost felt *wrong* to try to even bring up the topic of sex.

In reading your story, my main comment here would be: You were unprepared. If you're planning to take someone somewhere, make sure you have an idea of what you're doing when you get there. Better natural language communication would be better than using a translation tool. I get it, I've been there, it just takes time to get the language down and how to read people here. It's much more rewarding once you've got an insight to the people, language and culture.

I fully agree, I was definitely unprepared. Both in the language and pickup skills in general. But it's all a learning process and I accept that. My current worry is how will I be able to make my next date (lunch date with chef girl in ~3hours) go well. Maybe it's the wrong mindset to have, but I feel like I should give up trying to hook up with Japanese Tinder girls and just friend them because it seems like there isn't much point in trying.

 

[Sortman]

I know several guys who came to Japan and decided they will only use Japanese in dates. Sure way to pick up your motivation in learning as well as filters out those girls just wanting a volunteer English teacher.

Good idea! Sounds pretty painful, but putting yourself in new situations is how to quickly learn. I'll try to speak mostly Japanese on my future dates.

 

[MikeH]

I feel like I should give up trying to hook up with Japanese Tinder girls and just friend them because it seems like there isn't much point in trying.

Nothing wrong with having Japanese female friends. You know what used to be my local male friends best way to hook up? Yep, meeting their friends' friends.

I'll try to speak mostly Japanese on my future dates.

That's a good idea, but will not solve your current problem. If you want this method to work it must be all Japanese, not just more. One hard-core believer I know even walked out if the girl continued to drop back to English.

 

[Garcian]

Maybe it's the wrong mindset to have, but I feel like I should give up trying to hook up with Japanese Tinder girls and just friend them because it seems like there isn't much point in trying.

The main problem I see here is the attempt to put people (girls in this case) into categories. There is no "American Tinder girl" and no "Japanese Tinder girl".
Every person is different, has different reasons to use Tinder or whatever application or not.

The girl made the same mistake by the way, by telling you what "Tinder is like" in Japan. There are no rules to this game, so don't try to come up with artificial ones.

I would also stay away from thinking how sexual Tinder is in Japan. What does that statistic give you? Focus on the one girl you are on a date with, man. Not the platform you met, because (as The Rock wonderfully said) it doesn't matter.

A good attempt would have been to try and find out as much as possible about the girl (and what she is looking for, if anything at all) before meeting. Keep it as subtle as you can, but make sure you get the information you want. But don't expect a 100% clear answer. Many girls just go into a date for fun and out of curiosity, and then go with the flow.

And if you are really unsure on the first date, then just relax. Don't think about her hands or other body parts. Just have a fun evening and make sure she has fun, too. Then an eventual second or third date might lead to success.

As far as "Japanese Tinder girls" goes, I have met future business partners, translators, friends, students, long-lasting sex friends, girlfriends, affairs with married women, one night stands on there. All female of course.

So, stop categorizing for your own good and just focus on the one girl. Good luck next time. NEVER give up man.

 

[Lukes]

As others have already pointed out, you get all types on Tinder. I have friends in the states that formed long term relationships with women they met on Tinder. You may find what you're looking for but it's a numbers game in my opinion.

In your case here, I think your expectations might have been a bit high given your level of language skill and cultural awareness. I do commend you for being up front with her about your expectations though. I've usually found that to be the best approach.

 

[warubuta]

Not really sure what your objectives were. If it was too meet a J girl, have some fun and learn something, then it sounds like you had a great date. But if your objective was to get laid or do the groundwork for getting laid on the second date (a much more reasonable objective IMO), well then I would say it wasn't so good. I assume your objective is to get laid as quickly as possible. The important thing to consider is that there are many girls out there who are not going to give it up on date one, date 2 or date 50 for that matter. It has almost nothing to do with you, your looks or your power of seduction. Your first mistake was to not figure out if she is the kind of girl who has casual sex or not. You should have done this before you even met to aviod fighting a battle you cannot win. How do you do this? Ask her. Tell her you are looking for a girlfriend. Ask her if she has a boyfriend. Ask her if she has ever had a foreign boyfriend. You will get a vibe and you will know if there is a chance. She will flirt or she will be friendly. The former is good the latter is bad. If she is just friendly, cut your losses. If she signals at all positively, then I suggest you take her to a restaurant near your hotel. Have dinner. Drink sake. Invite her to your room after dinner to show her your stamp collection. If she says no, then invite her to a bar for one more drink. If after a few drinks she still doesnt want to see your stamp collection, either cut your losses completely or repeat the process until you succeed.

 

[MikeH]

Invite her to your room after dinner to show her your stamp collection.

But what... what if he didn't bring his stamp collection with him to Japan?

Yeah, that is be crazy talk. Everyone brings their stamp collection with them at all times.

 

[Frenchy]

But what... what if he didn't bring his stamp collection with him to Japan?

Yeah, that is be crazy talk. Everyone brings their stamp collection with them at all times.

Erotic ukiyoe (aka shunga) collections are usually more fun though . But some ladies get wet just watching the old stamps with Queen Victoria's head or the rare ones from countries that don't even really exist anymore , like Belgium. I get that .

 

[Sinapse]

I felt like convincing her to sleep with me would be 100x harder

Generally speaking, trying to "convince" girls to have sex with you is the wrong approach. You just gotta be the man and make the move.

At some point after we had finished singing and were chatting, I was sort of thinking well fuck it, I'm obviously not going to get anywhere by being indirect so I

Kissed her. There ya go

 

[monalisaoverdrive]

Some of this advice has already been repeated to a certain extent, but let me give you some tips.

First of all, holding hands isn't entirely uncommon in Japan but the chances of you meeting a girl from Tinder or anywhere on the Internet and having her randomly just hold your hand in public is very unlikely. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. None of my dates in Japan have ever started like this. Simple "Nice to meet you", introduction and then slowly walking to your destination is the safest option. Hugging is definitely out of the question between strangers and often even close friends.

Something to take into account: you can't take control in Japan as a foreigner. Even if you did speak Japanese, the karaoke staff and so on would naturally turn to her. Foreigners are often ignored if you're in a group with a Japanese person. They assume the Japanese person understands the system more than you do (which there's a 99.9% chance they do).

I don't know much about this girl (other than what you just explained) but the fact that she's willing to go to karaoke for 7+ hours isn't necessarily a good sign. Is the type of person who spends hours upon hours at karaoke by herself? It's definitely considered a bit strange by many people. The fact that she just wants to study English isn't uncommon either. I can't count the number of times I've heard "Teach me English!!" from girls and it was at least half genuine. A lot of them really do want to just learn English and meet foreigners because they speak English.

Also it's good that you were honest with her, but she's right - a lot of people in Japan regard Tinder as something to make friends with. Maybe she really does want an English-speaking friend. I'm amazed that you put up with this seven hours. I would have suggested going to a bar or something. As someone up there said, make sure you're prepared. The good news is that there are plenty of girls on Tinder who in fact are looking to hook up and have fun with a foreign guy.

Good luck!

 

[Sortman]

So, stop categorizing for your own good and just focus on the one girl. Good luck next time. NEVER give up man.

Good advice! I think that sometimes I sort of go down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out exactly what to do, but in reality it should be more natural and overall a good experience. Instead of trying to go for the lay on the first date, I'll try to use it as more of a prelude to the 2nd and/or 3rd.

You will get a vibe and you will know if there is a chance.

Great advice as well. I've noticed that one of the things I need to get better at is reading the vibe. I suppose my main worry is that I'll misread and then come off as an ass- i.e. thinking she wants to go to a hotel and leading her there only to find out she's 100% not interested.

Kissed her. There ya go

Hahahaha, I could never imagine just going for a kiss in that particular situation. Maybe this is a sign that I have a looooooong way to go in terms of self improvement and confidence. But my aim is to reach that point eventually... But really though, don't you think if I went for the kiss in that situation and she pulled away/avoided that it would end up in a pretty weird situation? I wouldn't know how to handle the situation if it came to that. Just awkward silence...

I don't know much about this girl (other than what you just explained) but the fact that she's willing to go to karaoke for 7+ hours isn't necessarily a good sign. Is the type of person who spends hours upon hours at karaoke by herself? It's definitely considered a bit strange by many people.

Yea, she's definitely the type to go to karaoke by herself fairly often (she is actually a pretty damn good singer). Honestly the reason I was more ok with staying there for so long is because I thought she was a pretty interesting person with a lot of similar hobbies. I almost felt like I was doing her a disservice by asking about sex, because I felt like she was probably not interested (but then again, I'm not good at reading those kinds of things). Maybe I fell for her just a little bit

The good news is that there are plenty of girls on Tinder who in fact are looking to hook up and have fun with a foreign guy.

Where are these magical girls!?! I think I need to go to a photography studio and get 10/10 pictures of myself first.

 

[Sortman]

I actually went on another lunch date yesterday with a new girl, and I tried a different approach (not suggesting sex lol)...

We met up at Hikarie in Shibuya for lunch. Did the shake hands, "Hi!", etc greeting as I've learned that Japanese people don't like to be too touchy. We went into the building and up to the 7th floor where the restaurants were. She's a chef so I asked her which places were good for meat (because I am seriously lacking in my red protein quota in Japan!). I picked a place, we sat down at a two person table, ordered, etc. Everything all went pretty smoothly and normal, and I tried to keep it fairly casual. I planned to not talk about Tinder at all, but then...

Out of the blue she asks me about Tinder, and how often I use it, and how many girls I met. I was kinda surprised that she brought it up considering I had just decided not to Anyhow, I briefly mentioned seeing a few people, but didn't really delve into sex talk. I asked her about how often she uses Tinder, and she said she uses it sometimes, but also goes to meetups and international parties. I noticed that throughout our lunch date, she gave me pretty strong eye contact and kept playing with her hair/preening. This was the first girl where I noticed that going on, so I took that as a good sign.

After we were done, I paid for the meal (I hear that in Japan guys only do that when they like the girl, instead of just trying to be gentlemanly) and we headed towards the station because she had somewhere she needed to be. After we got past the JR line gates in Shibuya station, we had to say goodbye because we were going in opposite directions in the Yamanote. But then the weirdest thing happened...

So I told her that the date was fun, and I invited her out to dinner and drinks some other night. She agreed, and then I prepared to wave goodbye, but it seemed like she wanted to shake hands or something so I was like ok.. shake hands goodbye... I went for the hand shake and then out of the blue she hugs me! And note, we aren't standing in some corner of the station, but literally right at the center with a shit ton of people going every which way. I was pretty surprised because this went against everything I had learned about Japanese dating/culture, but I guess it was a good thing. I told her I was surprised about the hug, and then she gave me a second hug right after

Anyhow, after the hugs we parted ways and I was sort of left confused. I wanted to go into that date at least directing it and taking action (or no action) myself, but it seems like she's a pretty forward person.

So far, dating in Japan has been really confusing!

 

[Frenchy]

I actually went on another lunch date yesterday with a new girl, and I tried a different approach (not suggesting sex lol)...

We met up at Hikarie in Shibuya for lunch. Did the shake hands, "Hi!", etc greeting as I've learned that Japanese people don't like to be too touchy. We went into the building and up to the 7th floor where the restaurants were. She's a chef so I asked her which places were good for meat (because I am seriously lacking in my red protein quota in Japan!). I picked a place, we sat down at a two person table, ordered, etc. Everything all went pretty smoothly and normal, and I tried to keep it fairly casual. I planned to not talk about Tinder at all, but then...

Out of the blue she asks me about Tinder, and how often I use it, and how many girls I met. I was kinda surprised that she brought it up considering I had just decided not to Anyhow, I briefly mentioned seeing a few people, but didn't really delve into sex talk. I asked her about how often she uses Tinder, and she said she uses it sometimes, but also goes to meetups and international parties. I noticed that throughout our lunch date, she gave me pretty strong eye contact and kept playing with her hair/preening. This was the first girl where I noticed that going on, so I took that as a good sign.

After we were done, I paid for the meal (I hear that in Japan guys only do that when they like the girl, instead of just trying to be gentlemanly) and we headed towards the station because she had somewhere she needed to be. After we got past the JR line gates in Shibuya station, we had to say goodbye because we were going in opposite directions in the Yamanote. But then the weirdest thing happened...

So I told her that the date was fun, and I invited her out to dinner and drinks some other night. She agreed, and then I prepared to wave goodbye, but it seemed like she wanted to shake hands or something so I was like ok.. shake hands goodbye... I went for the hand shake and then out of the blue she hugs me! And note, we aren't standing in some corner of the station, but literally right at the center with a shit ton of people going every which way. I was pretty surprised because this went against everything I had learned about Japanese dating/culture, but I guess it was a good thing. I told her I was surprised about the hug, and then she gave me a second hug right after

Anyhow, after the hugs we parted ways and I was sort of left confused. I wanted to go into that date at least directing it and taking action (or no action) myself, but it seems like she's a pretty forward person.

So far, dating in Japan has been really confusing!

Mazel Tov!

Well I found it pretty confusing in any country I dated, for that matter (ok so that's about 4 or 5 countries only) . But Maybe in Iran or Saudi Arabia it would be even more confusing !

 

[Garcian]

So far, dating in Japan has been really confusing!

Implying that there are places where it is not confusing?

 

[User#8628]

I actually went on another lunch date yesterday with a new girl, and I tried a different approach (not suggesting sex lol)...

We met up at Hikarie in Shibuya for lunch. Did the shake hands, "Hi!", etc greeting as I've learned that Japanese people don't like to be too touchy. We went into the building and up to the 7th floor where the restaurants were. She's a chef so I asked her which places were good for meat (because I am seriously lacking in my red protein quota in Japan!). I picked a place, we sat down at a two person table, ordered, etc. Everything all went pretty smoothly and normal, and I tried to keep it fairly casual. I planned to not talk about Tinder at all, but then...

Out of the blue she asks me about Tinder, and how often I use it, and how many girls I met. I was kinda surprised that she brought it up considering I had just decided not to Anyhow, I briefly mentioned seeing a few people, but didn't really delve into sex talk. I asked her about how often she uses Tinder, and she said she uses it sometimes, but also goes to meetups and international parties. I noticed that throughout our lunch date, she gave me pretty strong eye contact and kept playing with her hair/preening. This was the first girl where I noticed that going on, so I took that as a good sign.

After we were done, I paid for the meal (I hear that in Japan guys only do that when they like the girl, instead of just trying to be gentlemanly) and we headed towards the station because she had somewhere she needed to be. After we got past the JR line gates in Shibuya station, we had to say goodbye because we were going in opposite directions in the Yamanote. But then the weirdest thing happened...

So I told her that the date was fun, and I invited her out to dinner and drinks some other night. She agreed, and then I prepared to wave goodbye, but it seemed like she wanted to shake hands or something so I was like ok.. shake hands goodbye... I went for the hand shake and then out of the blue she hugs me! And note, we aren't standing in some corner of the station, but literally right at the center with a shit ton of people going every which way. I was pretty surprised because this went against everything I had learned about Japanese dating/culture, but I guess it was a good thing. I told her I was surprised about the hug, and then she gave me a second hug right after

Anyhow, after the hugs we parted ways and I was sort of left confused. I wanted to go into that date at least directing it and taking action (or no action) myself, but it seems like she's a pretty forward person.

So far, dating in Japan has been really confusing!

Well, she mentions going to international parties, so she's probably a gaijin hunter and into the western ways.