Question for couples about swinging...

[Kaspar]

This...including things that have shocked me (not so easily done).



And this, especially the second part.

-Ww

Agreed... I'm not easily shocked, but but but... It happened.

 

[Kaspar]

Agree with you here. Although, when it comes to sex it seems like the opposite. The more you can go with your instincts, I think the more pleasurable and satisfying sex can be, at least for me. Depending on who I am with sometimes, I think about what I am doing too much and that can take away from the experience. The best sex I ever had was where it was like we were both wild animals. No thinking, no shame, no worries, just pure and primal.

Anyway, sorry this is way off topic.

It's not easy to let go at all: I've personally discovered things about myself I wasn't aware of... It can be scary and exciting at the same time, but it never comes easy.

 

[Coda87]

It's not easy to let go at all: I've personally discovered things about myself I wasn't aware of... It can be scary and exciting at the same time, but it never comes easy.

I've only been able to be like that with a couple women. Trust and the right chemistry need to be there or its hard as you said.

 

[Wwanderer]

A couple takes in a child because it makes sense to have somebody to take care of them when they are old...a guy lets somebody else plow his wife because that's how he fits into the tribe to which he wants to belong to...there is also, frankly, brains that are wired poorly...not everyone gets to be top of the heap...lots of individuals make dumb decisions isn't evidence against biology ruling, as diversity creates the largest pool of decisions from which at least some of the species will survive.

Any evidence or arguments for any of these assertions? If so, I'd be interested to hear them.

In any case, let me be clear. I am not one of those numerous people who make the opposite mistake to yours, i.e., who believe that people are capable of perfectly controlling their behavior with logic and rationality in pursuit of consciously chosen goals etc. (Economists are just awful about this for the most part and for one example.) Biology and evolutionarily determined instincts are very powerful in people and most definitely in sexual behavior and values, but they do not "rule" in the sense of entirely dominating the role of reason and thoughtful choices. Both play major roles. People are not simple.

-Ww

 

[Troilist]

Btw, as an aside, the part of the quote I made bold reflects a common misconception, namely that our instincts evolved early in the couple of million year early history of our species (cavemen and such), whereas they actually arose over a much longer period of time in a long chain of species that preceded ours. The world most humans live in today is an incredibly different environment from those in which those instincts developed. That is why they often serve us so poorly.

-Ww

The reptilian part of our brain refers to the most primitive, instinctive, and most powerful coping brain function that is primarily concerned with survival. It is responsible for our fight or flight response. With the use of language, we are able to transcend this survival instinct. This is something my husband and I actively work on. I am not claiming to be an expert, but I wanted to share what the path was like for us. Who knows, perhaps you may see a little of yourselves in my sharing. When I discovered for myself that I could live my life in a way in which there was nothing to defend, nothing to justify, and nothing to survive, I truly felt free.

We human beings are wired to be admired. What powerfully drives us is the need to look good, and avoid looking bad. We would lie, cheat, and steal to avoid looking bad. Unfortunately, many people haven't distinguished this. We don't realize that we have shaped our entire lives in an effort to look good, maybe even to ourselves. Once I realized that the need to look good was driving my life, I made it a point to live in such a way that the ego doesn't run the show. I am committed to living my life out of the space of love, rather than fear and survival. The ego is just an illusion. I can't believe how much time, effort, and energy I wasted worrying about what other people would think. It was all just a survival instinct. We are social creatures. Being a social outcast back in the day would severely impair your chances for survival. Once I finally distinguished this, I no longer had to live that way.

I would even practice to avoid the amygdala hijack ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala_hijack ). I make it a game to catch myself as fast as possible if I'm ever caught in it.

 

[Wwanderer]

The reptilian part of our brain refers to the most primitive, instinctive, and most powerful coping brain function that is primarily concerned with survival. It is responsible for our fight or flight response. With the use of language, we are able to transcend this survival instinct.

This deserves far far more than one like! Another truly great and insightful post, also imo and experience dead-on accurate. Fwiiw, I am not sure whether it is language only that gives us this capability, but maybe. Anyway, we have it, and it allows people to do incredible things with their lives. One reason I wanted to argue as forcefully as I could against the common "biology rules" notion is that it is an excuse for the higher brain to surrender control to the lower/reptilian brain areas. It is a cheerleader, so to speak, for the amygdala hijack you mention.

This is something my husband and I actively work on. I am not claiming to be an expert, but I wanted to share what the path was like for us. Who knows, perhaps you may see a little of yourselves in my sharing. When I discovered for myself that I could live my life in a way in which there was nothing to defend, nothing to justify, and nothing to survive, I truly felt free.

You may not claim to be an expert, but it seems that you are one...

We human beings are wired to be admired. What powerfully drives us is the need to look good, and avoid looking bad. We would lie, cheat, and steal to avoid looking bad. Unfortunately, many people haven't distinguished this. We don't realize that we have shaped our entire lives in an effort to look good, maybe even to ourselves. Once I realized that the need to look good was driving my life, I made it a point to live in such a way that the ego doesn't run the show. I am committed to living my life out of the space of love, rather than fear and survival. The ego is just an illusion. I can't believe how much time, effort, and energy I wasted worrying about what other people would think. It was all just a survival instinct. We are social creatures. Being a social outcast back in the day would severely impair your chances for survival. Once I finally distinguished this, I no longer had to live that way..

@Sinapse asked me to explain some of the reasons that I consider my life to have been (so far) an endless torrent of crazy good luck. I'm not so inclined to go into much detail about such things, not sure why anyone (who knows me only as a screen name on the net) should care about my personal circumstances, but your comment above motivates me to mention one element of my life long good fortune. Namely, the circumstances of my childhood made it physically impossible for me to look good to those around me, to impress them in a positive way, to fit into the group in which I lived. So, I learned very early and easily (it is easy for a child to learn from its experiences) not to care what other people thought of me. And I never have. The freedom you recognized and earned the hard way was handed to me on a velvet pillow by what might have appeared to be misfortune but was exactly the opposite.

-Ww

 

[Troilist]

but your comment above motivates me to mention one element of my life long good fortune. Namely, the circumstances of my childhood made it physically impossible for me to look good to those around me, to impress them in a positive way, to fit into the group in which I lived. So, I learned very early and easily (it is easy for a child to learn from its experiences) not to care what other people thought of me. And I never have. The freedom you recognized and earned the hard way was handed to me on a velvet pillow by what might have appeared to be misfortune but was exactly the opposite.

-Ww

Entire realities are shaped completely by language. What you wrote above doesn't exist outside of language. Where does it exist? Can you point to it? Location? It only exists in your words that you use to describe it. Consider that if you changed some of the words you use, the entire memory becomes transformed.

 

[Wwanderer]

Entire realities are shaped completely by language. What you wrote above doesn't exist outside of language. Where does it exist? Can you point to it? Location? It only exists in your words that you use to describe it. Consider that if you changed some of the words you use, the entire memory becomes transformed.

Mmmm...while I don't want to deny the profound importance of language, I also am not sure that I would go quite that far. In this specific case, the experiences I mentioned and my perceptions of and reactions to them, occurred when my language abilities were rather primitive and undeveloped, extremely so at the beginning. More generally, people without language (for example those whose language centers in the brain have been destroyed by trauma or stroke) still seem to be capable of experiencing realities and learning from those experiences.

Perhaps less relevant (but not imo), there are meditative "wisdom traditions" (zen is the most widely familiar one) which purport to access reality and personal liberation precisely by penetrating/dropping the intermediary of language.

In other words, while what I wrote above does exist only within language, as you say, the same is not necessarily true of the experiences that led/allowed me to write those words.

In any case, truly fascinating and important topics imo.

-Ww

 

[Troilist]

Mmmm...while I don't want to deny the profound importance of language, I also am not sure that I would go quite that far. In this specific case, the experiences I mentioned and my perceptions of and reactions to them, occurred when my language abilities were rather primitive and undeveloped, extremely so at the beginning. More generally, people without language (for example those whose language centers in the brain have been destroyed by trauma or stroke) still seem to be capable of experiencing realities and learning from those experiences.

Perhaps less relevant (but not imo), there are meditative "wisdom traditions" (zen is the most widely familiar one) which purport to access reality and personal liberation precisely by penetrating/dropping the intermediary of language.

In other words, while what I wrote above does exist only within language, as you say, the same is not necessarily true of the experiences that led/allowed me to write those words.

In any case, truly fascinating and important topics imo.

-Ww

Who you knew yourself to be at that time exists in language. Your interpretation of what happened to you was filtered by language. Did you not fit in? Were there rough circumstances? Was there significant adversity? All of those and infinite more shape how you perceived the world. And then we add another contextual layer in language: all of that was a blessing because it shaped you to be the person you are. Then the entire experience becomes richer. It all resides in language. Language is the matrix. It shapes our world with the infinite contexts that crisscross our experience. Did we view the world as fair? Or cruel? Or as opportunity? Or as pain? How we describe our experience creates our reality. And we have to take responsibility that we were the ultimate judges on whether something was good/ bad, worthy or not, smart or slow. Even the judging exists in language.

I realize that I take a completely different view on language. I do not view language as just descriptive, being limited to my world shaping my words. I live my life in which my words create my world. I say something is going to happen, and boom, in that moment it just got created. For me, realizing this gave me much more responsibility over my language, as I became acutely aware that I am the creator of my reality. With a few simple words, I can alter my entire being and completely transform my experience. For example, before heading to a meeting, I can create a context of: "I am so thankful for this opportunity. I want to bring fun, gratitude, and love to everyone I meet." Adding that context would change one's entire way of being. The experience and memory would be altered. It is the matrix.

 

[iamyuu]

I went to a happening bar for the first time in my life last week. It was with a SF and I don't think I would ever consider the idea of going with my wife or see another man have sex with her. During that night I had sex with someone's GF or wife and I felt really bad for him.

Do you mind sharing which HB did you go to and which day & time of the week? Cheers!

 

[e-smile]

Do you mind sharing which HB did you go to and which day & time of the week? Cheers!

I went on a friday night from around 9pm to around 6am and the name of the HB was The Sleeping Beauty.
I'll make a review about it soon, I've been busy the past days.

 

[iamyuu]

I went on a friday night from around 9pm to around 6am and the name of the HB was The Sleeping Beauty.
I'll make a review about it soon, I've been busy the past days.

Cheers for the info, mate. No rush on the review

 

[User#8628]

Sleeping beauty is good, but they are very critical on language ability.
I went long ago and they let me in because i was with someone Japanese.
If you're taking a Japanese lady it shouldn't be a problem of course, but not an option for foreign couples who pass through here and such.

 

[Wwanderer]

Who you knew yourself to be at that time exists in language. Your interpretation of what happened to you was filtered by language. Did you not fit in? Were there rough circumstances? Was there significant adversity? All of those and infinite more shape how you perceived the world. And then we add another contextual layer in language: all of that was a blessing because it shaped you to be the person you are. Then the entire experience becomes richer. It all resides in language. Language is the matrix. It shapes our world with the infinite contexts that crisscross our experience. Did we view the world as fair? Or cruel? Or as opportunity? Or as pain? How we describe our experience creates our reality. And we have to take responsibility that we were the ultimate judges on whether something was good/ bad, worthy or not, smart or slow. Even the judging exists in language.

I realize that I take a completely different view on language. I do not view language as just descriptive, being limited to my world shaping my words. I live my life in which my words create my world. I say something is going to happen, and boom, in that moment it just got created. For me, realizing this gave me much more responsibility over my language, as I became acutely aware that I am the creator of my reality. With a few simple words, I can alter my entire being and completely transform my experience. For example, before heading to a meeting, I can create a context of: "I am so thankful for this opportunity. I want to bring fun, gratitude, and love to everyone I meet." Adding that context would change one's entire way of being. The experience and memory would be altered. It is the matrix.

Thank you for posting this reply. Although these are subtle matters and many hours of deep in-person conversation might be needed to really communicate all it to me/someone, I now *think* that I understand what you are saying much more clearly after reading it. I made bold some of the sentences that were to me most compelling and revealing.

Moreover, while your views of language are, as you say, unconventional, they seem to me at least roughly correct. Imo, language certainly is indeed a filter, a great metaphor for its function, through which we interpret, experience and evaluate reality. The matrix metaphor is also terrific; language lets us construct an experienced reality in which we exist in many senses. Also as you say, realizing the power of language and using it in intentional ways gives one great power and freedom to control one's life, and as you said in a previous post it gives the higher "rational" brain control over the demands and impulses of the language-less lower/reptilian brain. Words are the magic with which we can bind the wild and word-less amygdala.

However, all that said, personally I don't regard language as quite the ultimate and all-powerful part of life and the mind that you seem to attribute to it. A few points (in no particular order), suggested in respect and with no intended criticism, that might be worth your consideration:

- For many experiences in life, words are inadequate to capture them unless they are grounded in shared experience. Teach someone to swim by telling them about it. Explain how an orgasm feels to someone who has never experienced one. Explain the "qualia" (subjective experience) of seeing the color red to a blind person. Convey the emotions that losing, say, a parent produces to someone who has lost no family member or loved one (yet).

- Creatures and people without language have lives and experiences too. Language is not a *necessary* component of life or experience.

- Non-language memories can be exceptionally powerful and direct, often more so than language. For example, while you are quite correct that the childhood experiences which taught me not to be concerned with other people's opinions of me are filtered through language, some closely related things that happened to me as a child are far more directly accessible (unfortunately) to me via odors. Certain odors pull me back to moments and feelings far more vividly and irresistibly than any words, than I can even imagine words doing. (This is a well known phenomenon, the fact that smells are often very strong memory triggers, as you probably know.) Images and non-verbal sounds can of course also carry us back to certain past experiences as much or more than words.

- You wrote above "I live my life in which my words create my world." Surely this is true only within limits. Words may determine how you experience and react to, say, your child being sick, but they cannot make him/her well again. Or they may shape your feelings and attitude towards, say, global warming, but they can neither stop nor cause it by themselves. Right? Or am I misunderstanding something?

In short, it definitely seems to me that you are engaging the role of language in human life more profoundly than the conventional view (which sees them entirely as consequences rather than the causes they can be), but it seems to me that a more balanced view would load language with somewhat less power and responsibility and transfer some of that to other aspects and powers of the mind (or upper brain, if you prefer.)

I wonder if anyone else on TAG will find this exchange of any interest. It is perhaps not 100% on topic!

-Ww

 

[Kaspar]

Entire realities are shaped completely by language. What you wrote above doesn't exist outside of language. Where does it exist? Can you point to it? Location? It only exists in your words that you use to describe it. Consider that if you changed some of the words you use, the entire memory becomes transformed.

Entire realities are shaped completely by language. What you wrote above doesn't exist outside of language. Where does it exist? Can you point to it? Location? It only exists in your words that you use to describe it. Consider that if you changed some of the words you use, the entire memory becomes transformed.

Are you familiar with Wittgenstein? His ideas, as expressed in the Tractatus, are very similar to what you wrote above.

 

[Troilist]

Are you familiar with Wittgenstein? His ideas, as expressed in the Tractatus, are very similar to what you wrote above.

I am not familiar with his work. Our knowledge was developed from different leadership seminars we've attended throughout the years.

 

[e-smile]

Who you knew yourself to be at that time exists in language. Your interpretation of what happened to you was filtered by language. Did you not fit in? Were there rough circumstances? Was there significant adversity? All of those and infinite more shape how you perceived the world. And then we add another contextual layer in language: all of that was a blessing because it shaped you to be the person you are. Then the entire experience becomes richer. It all resides in language. Language is the matrix. It shapes our world with the infinite contexts that crisscross our experience. Did we view the world as fair? Or cruel? Or as opportunity? Or as pain? How we describe our experience creates our reality. And we have to take responsibility that we were the ultimate judges on whether something was good/ bad, worthy or not, smart or slow. Even the judging exists in language.

I realize that I take a completely different view on language. I do not view language as just descriptive, being limited to my world shaping my words. I live my life in which my words create my world. I say something is going to happen, and boom, in that moment it just got created. For me, realizing this gave me much more responsibility over my language, as I became acutely aware that I am the creator of my reality. With a few simple words, I can alter my entire being and completely transform my experience. For example, before heading to a meeting, I can create a context of: "I am so thankful for this opportunity. I want to bring fun, gratitude, and love to everyone I meet." Adding that context would change one's entire way of being. The experience and memory would be altered. It is the matrix.

I realized this at a young age because I was bilingual and trilingual pretty early and I always felt limited when talking with unilingual people. After that I learned English and Japanese and the person I communicate the best with is a childhood friend who speaks those same 5 languages.

 

[e-smile]

Sleeping beauty is good, but they are very critical on language ability.
I went long ago and they let me in because i was with someone Japanese.
If you're taking a Japanese lady it shouldn't be a problem of course, but not an option for foreign couples who pass through here and such.

Yeah there are many rules they explain at the beginning so Japanese is necessary. Some of the rules were odd, like single girls aren't allowed to play with couples while single guys are (they give bracelet with colors and we entered as singles).
I had a great night but I was lucky, I think I was the luckiest guy there because most of them weren't having action including a guy who came with us. Even the girl he brought didn't play with him so in the end we felt sorry for him.

 

[Troilist]

Yeah there are many rules they explain at the beginning so Japanese is necessary. Some of the rules were odd, like single girls aren't allowed to play with couples while single guys are.

That is an odd rule!! That would be very limiting for couples especially if you are only interested for other girls to join you. I wonder why they made up that rule?

 

[e-smile]

That is an odd rule!! That would be very limiting for couples especially if you are only interested for other girls to join you. I wonder why they made up that rule?

I think it's because there is a lot more single guys and if the single girls play with the couples that would reduce their options.
Also the single guys pay more, the single girls only pay 7000 yen membership once while the guys have to add 17 000 yen entrance fee each time they get in.
Also there is a second floor with themed play rooms that have free entrance for girls while guys have to add 2000 yen for access.
I didn't need to add the 2000 yen because there is a play room in the B1 floor and you can also play in the common space.
But that rule was restrictive to me too because I entered with "my" girl as single and there were couples who wanted to play with us but couldn't because she couldn't join. I played with one girl who was in a couple but I was feeling bad for the guy so it wasn't great and I didn't even finish after she came. Playing with the single girls was better and the only bother was the stares from single guys who didn't manage to find play partners.
Even the couples didn't play much in B1, the play room there was mainly used by me and my partners, only once there was a couple who joined us but didn't interact.

I think for couples it's better to go to couple kissa. I'm going to try olive-21 next week so I'll make a report and comparison (I still have to make a review for the sleeping beauty though)

 

[Wwanderer]

I think it's because there is a lot more single guys and if the single girls play with the couples that would reduce their options.
Also the single guys pay more, the single girls only pay 7000 yen membership once while the guys have to add 17 000 yen entrance fee each time they get in.

This is almost certainly the correct explanation for the rule. The bulk of their revenue and perhaps all or nearly all of their profit come from the always hopefully but rarely "lucky" single guys. The HB wants to make the situation as favorable to them as possible (which is still not very).

Protip: Far better to bring a date, p4p or np4p, to an HB than to go as a single guy, even if she is not the one you are aiming to have sex with! The other women will pay much more attention to you if you arrive and are hanging with a woman.

-Ww

 

[User#8628]

This is almost certainly the correct explanation for the rule. The bulk of their revenue and perhaps all or nearly all of their profit come from the always hopefully but rarely "lucky" single guys. The HB wants to make the situation as favorable to them as possible (which is still not very).

Protip: Far better to bring a date, p4p or np4p, to an HB than to go as a single guy, even if she is not the one you are aiming to have sex with! The other women will pay much more attention to you if you arrive and are hanging with a woman.

-Ww

Well, i guess a lot of guys do like to watch. And watching a lesbian show (so a single woman joining a couple and being mainly interested in the women) would do well.

For your second point, bringing a woman also makes it easier to swap with other couples of course.

 

[Wwanderer]

Well, i guess a lot of guys do like to watch. And watching a lesbian show (so a single woman joining a couple and being mainly interested in the women) would do well.

Yeah, makes sense. Apparently Sleeping B doesn't think so, but I don't know of any other HB that has such a rule. Many have quirky little rules that appear to be revenue based, like the 9259 rule about couples that arrive together having to stay together inside the place (except when using the toilet, thankfully!). It is presumably so that a single guy and a single girl can't form a faux-couple when they enter to get the couple's discount on the entrance fee.

For your second point, bringing a woman also makes it easier to swap with other couples of course.

Yes, certainly that, but also more in many cases. A guy arriving as part of a couple will be evaluated differently as a potential partner by the other women there, some of them at least, I think.

-Ww

 

[Troilist]

It seems like the sex scene in Japan is unlike any other I have ever experienced. Most places in Europe, South America and United States can be very shady at times. The attitude and mindset of the men and even women are very different from those in Japan. I am guessing culture is a big influencing factor in this variable.

 

[Wwanderer]

It seems like the sex scene in Japan is unlike any other I have ever experienced. Most places in Europe, South America and United States can be very shady at times. The attitude and mindset of the men and even women are very different from those in Japan. I am guessing culture is a big influencing factor in this variable.

Indeed so. I've spent time in about 50 countries in my life, and Japan (Japanese culture) is unlike any other I have encountered in many and deep ways, including the sexual culture.

The Tokyo commercial sex scene is like Disneyland for adults.

-Ww