SA pros? Cons galore

[Jbagz]

This is very often the case for sure, but in the strongest and most long-lived relationships the parties don't perceive it as an "exchange" but rather as a sort of competition of giving. In other words, both people are trying their level best to give the other person more than they receive and without any consideration of what they are getting in return. The technical term for their motivations is "love".

In concept I agree even if I'm not looking at the "exchange" that fuels relationships through a poetic lens.

I have long suspected that altruism and love might not exist since they require a poetic filter to be seen.

In other words, they are a byproduct of human consciousness. That isn't a bad thing, in fact it makes them all the more delightful.

Generalities but accurate in most cases imo and ime. There are even some exceptions to the bit I made bold above.

-Ww

Sure, I'm speaking in generalities.

 

[Wwanderer]

I have long suspected that altruism and love might not exist since they require a poetic filter to be seen.

Here is a true story: There was a childless elderly couple, married for decades, in which the wife developed Alzheimer disease and had to be institutionalized late in her life. The couple's financial means were limited, and the husband could not afford to put her in a facility which took care of her at a level he found acceptable, so he brought her home and cared for her himself over the last couple of years of her life. He did the work 24/7 without any break or relief. It was pretty much all that he did. He cooked for her, fed her, cleaned her, dressed her, carried her from place to place in the house, changed her diapers, brushed her hair, talked to her, watched her favorite TV shows and movies with her...everything. She did not know what was happening to or around her, did not know him, did not know that he was doing it for her, probably did not even care except at some basic level of physical/animal comfort. He too was quite elderly (80s) and so suffered and deteriorated himself terribly under the strain. He did not complain. Eventually she died in her sleep one night. After the small funeral attended by only a handful of relatives that flew in from distant places plus a few remaining local friends, he returned home to live alone. Less than two weeks later he was found lying dead on the kitchen floor of his home. The autopsy revealed no diagnosable cause of death.

I can't find the poetic filter in this one. But to be sure, such cases are extraordinarily rare.


BUT to be clear, I don't want to seem to be criticizing or disagreeing with the main points of your posts nor being pointlessly argumentative (despite this being the internet). Quoting this bit of your post before last for a second time:

In sugar-relationships there seems to be a tendency toward the female receiving a commodity that has monetary value. If that commodity isn't there, the relationship doesn't develop or it ceases to exist once the monetary commodity is taken away. However, there does appear to an exchange of emotions that satisfy the love and belonging needs of the sugar daddy. Maybe the sugar baby too in some cases.

Sex worker relationships tend to be the most one dimensional, or most straightforward. In that it is generally a simple cash payment for sex.

I think you have captured and nicely expressed an important aspect of most sugar dating. The only amendment I'd suggest is that I would say "usually" rather than "in some cases" in the bit I made bold. Most SBs are picky about whom they will sugar date precisely because they have motivations other than financial ones. And, as pointed out above somewhere by @User#8628, many escorts also want more than just the fees from their customers...although not particularly feelings of "love and belonging".

-Ww

 

[Jbagz]

Here is a true story: There was a childless elderly couple, married for decades, in which the wife developed Alzheimer disease and had to be institutionalized late in her life. The couple's financial means were limited, and the husband could not afford to put her in a facility which took care of her at a level he found acceptable, so he brought her home and cared for her himself over the last couple of years of her life. He did the work 24/7 without any break or relief. It was pretty much all that he did. He cooked for her, fed her, cleaned her, dressed her, carried her from place to place in the house, changed her diapers, brushed her hair, talked to her, watched her favorite TV shows and movies with her...everything. She did not know what was happening to or around her, did not know him, did not know that he was doing it for her, probably did not even care except at some basic level of physical/animal comfort. He too was quite elderly (80s) and so suffered and deteriorated himself terribly under the strain. He did not complain. Eventually she died in her sleep one night. After the small funeral attended by only a handful of relatives that flew in from distant places plus a few remaining local friends, he returned home to live alone. Less than two weeks later he was found lying dead on the kitchen floor of his home. The autopsy revealed no diagnosable cause of death.

I can't find the poetic filter in this one. But to be sure, such cases are extraordinarily rare.

What a touching and heat warming story.

Not to detract or take away any value from the actions of a dedicated husband, but only to contemplate possible motivations in his seemingly selfless actions.

I would argue that here we have a man who valued his commitment to his wife. In caring for her, he received self respect, esteem and perhaps even a reason for living.

Again, I would point you to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Notice the last two levels of the pyramid are esteem and self actualization.

So, I'm making the case that he isn't giving his dedication for nothing. He is getting something in return for it.

Perhaps the most valuable thing a human can possess?

BUT to be clear, I don't want to seem to be criticizing or disagreeing with the main points of your posts nor being pointlessly argumentative (despite this being the internet). Quoting this bit of your post before last for a second time:

I wouldn't hold it against you even if you were being contrary just for giggles.

I throughly enjoy our banter.

I think you have captured and nicely expressed an important aspect of most sugar dating. The only amendment I'd suggest is that I would say "usually" rather than "in some cases" in the bit I made bold. Most SBs are picky about whom they will sugar date precisely because they have motivations other than financial ones. And, as pointed out above somewhere by @User#8628, many escorts also want more than just the fees from their customers...although not particularly feelings of "love and belonging".

-Ww

Sure, I'll go along with that and I'll defer to your knowledge on sugar dating.

I not very experienced in formal sugar dating. What I mean by that is I've never gone into one of these relationships with "cards on the table" like you do through a website named Sugar Baby, or whatever it is called.

However, I've been in relationships that would probably qualify as SD-SB relationships if we are flexible on definitions.

I've got a delightful young lady coming over to my apartment later this afternoon who is 25 years younger than me. We are going to hangout at my pool, then go shopping and see a movie and have dinner.

I don't give her an allowance, but I will buy her stuff like clothes and pay her way for anything we do.

I'm sure I'm some sort of a sugar daddy.

 

[Jbagz]

What a touching and heat warming story.

Not to detract or take away any value from the actions of a dedicated husband, but only to contemplate possible motivations in his seemingly selfless actions.

I would argue that here we have a man who valued his commitment to his wife. In caring for her, he received self respect, esteem and perhaps even a reason for living.

Again, I would point you to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Notice the last two levels of the pyramid are esteem and self actualization.

So, I'm making the case that he isn't giving his dedication for nothing. He is getting something in return for it.

Perhaps the most valuable thing a human can possess?

Hint: That last little bit is where the poetic filter is required.




I wouldn't hold it against you even if you were being contrary just for giggles.

I throughly enjoy our banter.




Sure, I'll go along with that and I'll defer to your knowledge on sugar dating.

I not very experienced in formal sugar dating. What I mean by that is I've never gone into one of these relationships with "cards on the table" like you do through a website named Sugar Baby, or whatever it is called.

However, I've been in relationships that would probably qualify as SD-SB relationships if we are flexible on definitions.

I've got a delightful young lady coming over to my apartment later this afternoon who is 25 years younger than me. We are going to hangout at my pool, then go shopping and see a movie and have dinner.

I don't give her an allowance, but I will buy her stuff like clothes and pay her way for anything we do.

I'm sure I'm some sort of a sugar daddy.

 

[Wwanderer]

What a touching and heat warming story.

Not to detract or take away any value from the actions of a dedicated husband, but only to contemplate possible motivations in his seemingly selfless actions.

I would argue that here we have a man who valued his commitment to his wife. In caring for her, he received self respect, esteem and perhaps even a reason for living.

Again, I would point you to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Notice the last two levels of the pyramid are esteem and self actualization.

So, I'm making the case that he isn't giving his dedication for nothing. He is getting something in return for it.

Perhaps the most valuable thing a human can possess?

Well, neither of us can know what was in his heart, but in any case, even if your description of his motivations is correct, it doesn't seem accurate to me to call it an "exchange" since he was not getting "esteem and self actualization" and/or "a reason for living" from her. She was not giving those things to him; they cost her nothing, and she was not even aware that he was getting them.

You could also argue, equally plausibly imo, that it made him happy, well less unhappy might be closer, to know that he was improving her wellbeing somewhat. So, in that sense, it wasn't perfectly unselfish; he was also getting some happiness out of it. But again, that is not what I'd call an exchange, just a motivation...a motivation I have no trouble labeling as "love".

I wouldn't hold it against you even if you were being contrary just for giggles.

I do so reasonably frequently, just not in this case.

I throughly enjoy our banter.

Ditto.

I not very experienced in formal sugar dating. What I mean by that is I've never gone into one of these relationships with "cards on the table" like you do through a website named Sugar Baby, or whatever it is called.

However, I've been in relationships that would probably qualify as SD-SB relationships if we are flexible on definitions.

I've got a delightful young lady coming over to my apartment later this afternoon who is 25 years younger than me. We are going to hangout at my pool, then go shopping and see a movie and have dinner.

I don't give her an allowance, but I will buy her stuff like clothes and pay her way for anything we do.

I'm sure I'm some sort of a sugar daddy.

Definitely so, imo. I have and had what I would call sugar relationships of those sorts well before I ever heard the terminology and before there were dedicated websites for the purpose of sugar match-ups etc.

Sugaring is a big tent that includes huge diversity...much of it without "cards on the table".

-Ww

 

[Jbagz]

Well, neither of us can know what was in his heart, but in any case, even if your description of his motivations is correct, it doesn't seem accurate to me to call it an "exchange" since he was not getting "esteem and self actualization" and/or "a reason for living" from her. She was not giving those things to him; they cost her nothing, and she was not even aware that he was getting them.

You could also argue, equally plausibly imo, that it made him happy, well less unhappy might be closer, to know that he was improving her wellbeing somewhat. So, in that sense, it wasn't perfectly unselfish; he was also getting some happiness out of it. But again, that is not what I'd call an exchange, just a motivation...a motivation I have no trouble labeling as "love".

If your only objection was to my use of the word exchange, then we are close enough to agreement.

He is getting something in return that requires her existence.

I'll admit that exchange might not be the best word to describe that, but stick with the premise that there is a motivation behind all acts of altruism.

That motivation might be entirely internalized by the person doing the altruistic act, but it is there.

 

[RandomTokyoGuy]

I can't find the poetic filter in this one. But to be sure, such cases are extraordinarily rare.

Among my close relatives I had two cases with one partner dying very close to the other without any previous indication.

I also know a few cases where dementia patients were taken care at home by the partner, even when caretaking would be paid of social insurance. It might not be as rare as you think. Might become rarer in this generation though.

 

[Frenchy]

Here is a true story: There was a childless elderly couple, married for decades, in which the wife developed Alzheimer disease and had to be institutionalized late in her life. The couple's financial means were limited, and the husband could not afford to put her in a facility which took care of her at a level he found acceptable, so he brought her home and cared for her himself over the last couple of years of her life. He did the work 24/7 without any break or relief. It was pretty much all that he did. He cooked for her, fed her, cleaned her, dressed her, carried her from place to place in the house, changed her diapers, brushed her hair, talked to her, watched her favorite TV shows and movies with her...everything. She did not know what was happening to or around her, did not know him, did not know that he was doing it for her, probably did not even care except at some basic level of physical/animal comfort. He too was quite elderly (80s) and so suffered and deteriorated himself terribly under the strain. He did not complain. Eventually she died in her sleep one night. After the small funeral attended by only a handful of relatives that flew in from distant places plus a few remaining local friends, he returned home to live alone. Less than two weeks later he was found lying dead on the kitchen floor of his home. The autopsy revealed no diagnosable cause of death.

I can't find the poetic filter in this one. But to be sure, such cases are extraordinarily rare.


BUT to be clear, I don't want to seem to be criticizing or disagreeing with the main points of your posts nor being pointlessly argumentative (despite this being the internet). Quoting this bit of your post before last for a second time:



I think you have captured and nicely expressed an important aspect of most sugar dating. The only amendment I'd suggest is that I would say "usually" rather than "in some cases" in the bit I made bold. Most SBs are picky about whom they will sugar date precisely because they have motivations other than financial ones. And, as pointed out above somewhere by @User#8628, many escorts also want more than just the fees from their customers...although not particularly feelings of "love and belonging".

-Ww

...funny, many customers also feel the same

 

[Wwanderer]

If your only objection was to my use of the word exchange, then we are close enough to agreement.

He is getting something in return that requires her existence.

I'll admit that exchange might not be the best word to describe that, but stick with the premise that there is a motivation behind all acts of altruism.

That motivation might be entirely internalized by the person doing the altruistic act, but it is there.

I also think that we are close to agreement and have enjoyed this exchange, but to pursue it a little longer, it appears to me that you are defining an altruistic act as one without any motivation or something close to that. By such a definition, I would agree that altruism might not exist. However, I think the standard definition is more like doing something for the purpose of benefitting another person (or people) even though the consequences for the altruistic person are negative, usually very negative. In other words, it means putting another person's interests ahead of one's own. That isn't the same as getting nothing out of it for oneself of course. If you want to do something for whatever reason and succeed in doing it or at least give it a good try, there is naturally some satisfaction involved - "I want to do X and did" basically. However that does not seem to me to mean that I acted in my own best interest.

With respect to the part of your post I made bold in the quote above, it seems almost tautological that there is a motivation for all voluntary acts, but one can see altruism (or love) as a/the motivation rather than attributing it to self-interest or selfishness. It all becomes a bit semantically muddy when you start peering at it closely.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I also know a few cases where dementia patients were taken care at home by the partner, even when caretaking would be paid of social insurance. It might not be as rare as you think. Might become rarer in this generation though.

I have heard of other cases too (about which I know fewer details though), so maybe "exceptionally rare" is not really justified, but it is by far not the usual case either.

-Ww

 

[Moontree]

I just checked the SA website; it lists 244 SBs in Finland. So it exists there at some level. There could be sugar sites in Finnish too of course, but I have no idea. But yes, its popularity varies widely from one place to another and is slowly growing. In NYC I'm pretty sure there are more SBs than escorts and quite possibly more money being spent on sugaring than on conventional p4p.
-Ww

Interesting! I just signed up to SA and got three messages from men, so I guess this thing really exists. (I am feeling stupid ) However I have to say that I am not really that interested in this sugar dating thing for some reason... And some of the profiles seem fake? Some sugar daddys are 21 y old? Somebody who wrote to me suggested that I fly to Tallinn to meet him and he would cover the costs and 1-2 h allowance but I am no that very excited about the idea..?

 

[Moontree]

I am updating you about my experiment with SA. (whether you are interested or not )

Networth 8 million and annual income more than 800 000 and no photo of the Estonian man? I have a gut feeling that he is not very trustworthy for some reason.

And one Finnish man seems okay, he complaints that all the SBs are very young (18 y old?) and its difficult to make any arrangements with so young sugar babies... I guess this SA -website is full of young girls then? (I don't know, I can't see the SB -profiles?)

-EDIT After a while...

I find more cons than pros...

Okay, I do not undertand this sugar dating fully but my first impression is that for me as an escort, sugar dating is not very beneficial.

My relationships with my clients are good and pretty close on my opinion (I have many regular clients who meet me often) and I like seeing different people so that money is always playing a role, it makes things easier and sets boundaries to the relationship.

The SD should earn quite a lot of money annually to be able to buy me something that I can not buy to me myself. Material things are not so important to me so Louis Vuitton bag (or whatever the SBs get as gifts etc) is not a motivator for me...

At this moment I am very happy to be an escort. Some of my relationships (as an escort) with clients seem to me to be like sugar dating, I just get actual money for myself and get to decide what I do with that money (education, books, traveling, friends, family, charity) instead of a Louis Vuitton bag.

Sugar dating is probably more than a LV bag but... well... Maybe you get my point and I hope I am not agitating anyone with my text.

 

[Moontree]

But this was a very interesting little research for me! Thank you for this thread!

 

[Wwanderer]

@finnisheve - A few comments: There are definitely A LOT of fakes, liars and scammers on SA, both SDs and SBs. There are even websites where SDs trade tips on how to take advantage of newbie SBs. And when a new SB or SD first joins the site, they are likely to attract those who seek to take advantage of them; they hunt the new faces. To find an SD who is legit and whose sugar goals/style matches your own and with whom you have some real affinity, both in terms of personality and sexuality, takes quite a lot of time and effort and searching. Unless you are very lucky indeed you aren't likely to find the best of what sugaring has to offer in just a few days of exploring SA.

This is NOT to say that you would like sugar dating if you gave it more time and effort; it definitely isn't for everyone. And if you are happy and completely satisfied with your escort work and client connections, there's little reason for you to look for something different. I'm just saying that it takes a lot more time and effort to give it a real try.

Also to correct one possible misunderstanding, SBs mostly receive cash allowances from their SDs, sometimes quite large ones, not just expensive gifts.

-Ww

 

[Moontree]

I must say that I didn't read any threads before my posts yesterday. I could have received the information about scammers (and everything else about sugar dating) by reading the other threads about this topic. But I did yesterday something what I quite often do - try things on my own and make my opinion (of the first impression) before reading other people's opinions. ...Hehe, it might not always be wise to act before reading the instructions but ... It's a lot of fun at times. And I had fun yesterday.

But I am not that interested in sugar dating so I will delete my account on SA.



I think sugar dating might be great for someone at some point of life! I have to say that I have probably been in some sort of sugar arrangements in my life, and I think it happens quite easily (without SA) if you are young and pretty (+adventurous) and a wealthy a bit older men want to hang out with me and give me experiences that I would never get with people of my age. Partially those experiences have lead me to this where I am now and I will never regret anything I have done. I am very grateful for everything. Changing opinions, ideas and energy is great too.

But I think that sort of sugar dating is just not for me at this point of my life, I prefer being independent whether it is escorting or other things in my life.

<3 Eve

 

[Wwanderer]

I think sugar dating might be great for someone at some point of life! I have to say that I have probably been in some sort of sugar arrangements in my life, and I think it happens quite easily (without SA) if you are young and pretty (+adventurous) and a wealthy a bit older men want to hang out with me and give me experiences that I would never get with people of my age. Partially those experiences have lead me to this where I am now and I will never regret anything I have done. I am very grateful for everything. Changing opinions, ideas and energy is great too.

Indeed, relationships that we would now call sugar arrangements have been around a long time and can definitely be found without using SA or any other sugar site. I have had some myself and in fact have one now. I also think that you are correct that sugaring can and ideally should be a path to other stages of an SB's life and need not (should not?) be a permanent lifestyle.

-Ww

 

[e-smile]

@finnisheve a 21 year old sugar daddy ? should be called a sugar son

 

[Moontree]

Indeed, relationships that we would now call sugar arrangements have been around a long time and can definitely be found without using SA or any other sugar site. I have had some myself and in fact have one now. I also think that you are correct that sugaring can and ideally should be a path to other stages of an SB's life and need not (should not?) be a permanent lifestyle.

-Ww

Yes, and I have to add that in the eyes of other people the sugar relationships might seem weird and abnormal and unhealthy, but hey, who is to say what is normal and what is acceptable? I mean that I have had issues in my own head thinking what other people think about my actions but I am over those thoughts.

That is also a part of why I ended up being an escort, many people might think I am crazy doing this, but I am not worried about their opinions anymore I have to say that I told my mum about being an escort and that was opinion that I was afraid the most. But she accepts my actions and who I am, so great. Other people do not know about this, because it is not their business what I do.

But I understand that sugar dating can be little dangerous in a way... I mean that I have not always known my boundaries well enough and I have been too naive. People have then taken advantage of that. But life teaches you And everyone has a basic instinct that tells you when things are getting dangerous (I think), but it is a decision whether you listen to that or not.

There are plenty of great men (who are safe and wonderful) who are willing to teach about life and give you financial support/ pay you some things from their own stable financial resources. Men get the energy, youth, beauty and feeling of importance so they enjoy (and therefore benefit) the relationship. And young women get experiences, new social networks, guidance and possibilities (financially) and enjoy too.

I have always aimed to improve myself and understand the world around me. And I have been able to challenge myself in versatile situations through my relationships. I have met people from the criminal underground world to the top financial world and even got to know a religious leader (not sexually). I have had fun and I have learned about life - and especially that everyone has their abnormalities and whatever I do, I should not think about what other people think and let other people stop me from what I feel like doing.

Wow, that was a long story, but I guess I wanted to tell my experiences in sugar dating(I now recognize that I have had something that could be defined as sugar relationships, I guess? ). Though none of my relationships have been arranged the way SA arranges / connects people together or I have never agreed on receiving anything.

So okay, I stop writing now, this is off topic perhaps too. But this is an interesting topic as these kind of relationships have existed always and will continue to exist.

It just feels a little bit artificial to me that there is a dating site for this kind of relationships but that is just my first reaction. Sugar relationships require chemistry, otherwise they won't work. Just like in conventional dating. Finding a partner from internet is totally normal nowadays even though it used to be abnormal and weird 15 years ago. (I remember my cousin found a boyfriend from the internet 15 years ago and that was very weird at that time)

 

[Moontree]

@finnisheve a 21 year old sugar daddy ? should be called a sugar son

Hahah, I guess he will be a daddy if the girl is 18 years old? When you are young, three years can make a big difference

 

[Wwanderer]

Sugar kid

Yes, and I have to add that in the eyes of other people the sugar relationships might seem weird and abnormal and unhealthy,

Yeah, definitely. If you are one of those people who is much bothered by what other people think of you, sugar dating is probably a bad choice. It is a cliché for very good reasons that Japanese culture is exceptionally intolerant of people who violate social norms, but fortunately, things akin to sugar dating are actually within Japanese social norms, at least somewhat.

but hey, who is to say what is normal and what is acceptable? I mean that I have had issues in my own head thinking what other people think about my actions but I am over those thoughts.

That is also a part of why I ended up being an escort, many people might think I am crazy doing this, but I am not worried about their opinions anymore

Congratulations! That is a very considerable achievement and one that can make your life far more interesting and successful in many contexts, not just relationships, sex, dating etc.

There are plenty of great men (who are safe and wonderful) who are willing to teach about life and give you financial support/ pay you some things from their own stable financial resources. Men get the energy, youth, beauty and feeling of importance so they enjoy (and therefore benefit) the relationship. And young women get experiences, new social networks, guidance and possibilities (financially) and enjoy too.

Imo that is an excellent description of some of the pros of sugar dating and how it benefits both parties in ways other than sex and money; it is also contrary to @e-smile's assertion that sugaring and escorting are essential the same.

It just feels a little bit artificial to me that there is a dating site for this kind of relationships but that is just my first reaction. Sugar relationships require chemistry, otherwise they won't work. Just like in conventional dating. Finding a partner from internet is totally normal nowadays even though it used to be abnormal and weird 15 years ago. (I remember my cousin found a boyfriend from the internet 15 years ago and that was very weird at that time)

Exactly so. Dedicated online sites are now a completely conventional way of meeting people for dating purposes. Why should sugar dating be any different. I do wish there were good online alternatives to SA, but for English-speakers at least, it seems to be the best current option.

-Ww

 

[e-smile]

Imo that is an excellent description of some of the pros of sugar dating and how it benefits both parties in ways other than sex and money; it is also contrary to @e-smile's assertion that sugaring and escorting are essential the same.

I didn't mean that the service is the same, I was reacting to the fact they refuse escorts as SB in their sites and I wanted to say their concept is still prostitution although more GFE oriented.

 

[Jaaz]

I do wish there were good online alternatives to SA, but for English-speakers at least, it seems to be the best current option.

SA seems like a good option. I've been using it for the past 2 weeks and on many of the Japanese girls descriptions they say they can / want to use English more and are looking for a foreigner SD. What kind of other alternatives would you prefer over SA?