Seekingarrangement In Tokyo

[Wwanderer]

There is already a fairly elaborate thread and discussion about Universe Club (UC) which includes some discussion of SeekingArrangement (SA) too, but it seems to me that SA merits its own separate coverage.

SA is a much cheaper way to go than UC, but the number of active (meaning still logging in and responding to messages reasonably frequently) women in Tokyo (and elsewhere in Japan) with SA profiles is much smaller than on UC (though SA has been growing a good bit in Tokyo recently). On the positive side of the ledger, they nearly all can speak English well enough that there is no language barrier at all (many native speakers and Japanese women who have lived in English speaking countries for extended periods of time).

Anyway, I have been using SA to meet women in Tokyo for several years now. The ratio of wins to fails appears to me to be quite a bit less favorable than with UC dates, but I have had a couple of spectacular successes...way more than making up for the several disappointing cases in my estimation.

There are other important differences too. On SA, the guys also post profiles, and the women can also initiate contact. Another one is that the SA system allows you to exchange messages or even talk on the phone/Skype before you meet.

At present and for the foreseeable future I expect to be meeting women via UC mostly, but imo SA and UC both offer a useful way to pursue "sugar dating", each with its pros and cons.

A few TAG participants have identified themselves as UC members. Is there anyone else here that uses or has used SA?

-Ww

 

[Serenity Now]

While being a confirmed convert to UC , SA looks like an interesting alternative.

Some questions...

Was curious if the girls on SA are open to their expected 'sugar fee' or is some negotiation required?

Any idea of how the girls 'sugar fees' on SA compare with UC? In my experience Y40,000 to Y60,000 is typical for UC girls.

And lastly do the SA girls provide any pictures with their posts/profiles?

Not having the upfront UC setting fee is obviously another benefit of SA, for the first date in any case.

SN...

 

[Wwanderer]

While being a confirmed convert to UC , SA looks like an interesting alternative.

Some questions...

Was curious if the girls on SA are open to their expected 'sugar fee' or is some negotiation required?

Yes and no. More precisely, the answer to the question is surprisingly complicated and highlights some of the major differences between SA and UC...so here goes:

The basic model of sugar dating behind SA is a classic mistress type situation where some wealthy gentleman, the SD, provides an income, a monthly "allowance", to his lovely (one presumes) young (usually) lover, the SB, in return for her "favor". They see each other on some regular basis, at least weekly typically. Now when an aspiring SB sets up her profile on SA one of the items she can select from a pull-down menu is the range of allowances she is seeking, with choices going from "Less tha n $1000/month" up to "More than $20,000/month" and a typical selection being perhaps $3000-5000/month. She can also choose "Open - Amount Negotiable" which is quite a popular selection. The SBs also get to write free-form text blurbs/profiles describing who they are, what they offer plus whom and what they seek in their profiles; some say things about their financial expectations in this text. A few will state that they will not negotiate and want the allowance they have indicated, but this is fairly rare. So, in these senses, the answer to your question is YES, they do give their sugar fee expectations in their profiles.

However, the answer is also NO...for two reasons. First of all, many SBs select the "Open - Amount Negotiable" option. Second and more importantly, nearly all of the SBs I've met who indicate some specific monthly allowance in their profile will tell you that it is just some number they picked more-or-less thoughtlessly when they were setting up their profile and that they are happy to consider other financial arrangements. Not infrequently they volunteer such comments without even being asked. A major reason is that many, probably a large majority imo...though I don't really know, of the sugar arrangements that come out of contacts on SA are not actually of the classical "kept woman" or mistress type. Some are apparently, but the nature of the arrangements varies all over the map and includes "connections" that are indistinguishable from that between conventional pro-escorts and their customers (indeed, many SBs listed on SA are simply pros using the site as a sort of electronic stroll, as far as I can judge) as well as relationships that are very much like UC-style sugar dating plus as many other variations as the SA guys and gals can invent between themselves. So, at least in my experience, there always ends up being some sort of discussion of the financial arrangement with SA SBs...although in most cases, again in my experience, it is not really much of a negotiation in any normal business sense of the word.

Any idea of how the girls 'sugar fees' on SA compare with UC? In my experience Y40,000 to Y60,000 is typical for UC girls.

That is exactly the range in which I most often spend when seeing SBs from SA, but that may be entirely due to the fact that I usually suggest JPY50,000 per date and my potential SBs nearly always accept it immediately and in general seem very happy with the figure. In a few cases I've been told (very politely) that my suggestion is so far below her expectations that it probably isn't worth continuing the discussion (at which point I drop the discussion and move on). Note, btw, that these discussions can take place in-person at a first meeting but can also be done in advance by email or on the phone/Skype, which may be less awkward.

In a couple of cases in which an SB and I have really hit it off very well, the financial arrangement has evolved into one in which there is no specific fee per date/meeting. Instead I simply give her as much as I can afford, and we spend as much time together as our mutual schedules allow. In these rare but very happy cases, the effective/average fee per date is way way below JPY50,000, but a lot more than mere money, sex and pleasant companionship is involved in these arrangements.

And lastly do the SA girls provide any pictures with their posts/profiles?

They are not required to do so, but a large majority do; many post multiple photos...up to 10 or so. In addition, the SA girls can include "private" photos in their profiles which can only be seen by those to whom she gives explicit permission. Sometimes the private photos are more revealing or provocative; in other cases they may show her face while the public ones do not.

Note that guys also post profiles on SA and have the same options with photos. It is not uncommon for SBs to say in their profiles that they will not respond to contacts from SDs who have no photos in their profiles. In this sense there is a lot more gender equality on SA than on UC. I like this feature in that it lets the women have an idea of my appearance before they meet me, thus reducing the chances of them running screaming from the restaurant or bar when they first lay eyes on me!

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Not having the upfront UC setting fee is obviously another benefit of SA, for the first date in any case.

The cost advantage is greater than that. First of all, you can join SA and peruse the SB profiles for *free*! (But you can't use most of the really powerful and practical features of their database search software with a free membership.) You are only required to pay a membership fee when/if you want to send a message to an SB or read a message an SB has sent you, and you can join for time periods as short as a month. Second, in my experience, most SBs on SA will see you for an initial get-to-know-you meeting in a public place without asking for any fee at all, just that you pay for their coffee, drinks, meal or whatever. The sugar fees then only start if you and she decide to proceed...with either that date or when you see each other again.

This financil advantage is offset, imo, by the disadvantage that the large majority of first meetings go no further due to "lack of chemistry" or other such problems. UC dates are MUCH more reliably productive of a good time in my experience and as best I can judge from what I hear about other people's experiences on both UC and SA. You can waste/spend A LOT of time and effort contacting women on SA and arranging to meet them only to have the connection turn out to be a dead-end dud.

So, SA is relatively cheap in money terms while UC is relatively cheap in time-and-effort terms. Each of us can decide which type of cost we can better afford, I suppose. At the moment at least, that trade-off is coming down on the UC side mostly for me personally.

-Ww

 

[Serenity Now]

Thanks for the detailed information on SA and the comparisons with UC,

As you described there are pros and cons to each SB dating site.

Having used UC extensively for about 10 months now I have been able to establish regular contact with a couple of girls for SB dates and few others for occasional dates. So I have already made the investment in joining UC plus setting fees.

However given that SA is free to sign up for it might be useful to explore given that I have to consider to re-up with UC come November.

And at least to date I can say that no UC dates have been too put off by my age or looks. Just lucky I guess.

SN...

 

[Wwanderer]

I mentioned it briefly already, but it deserves more emphasis. The really huge difference between UC and SA is the number of women with active profiles in Tokyo. I just checked, and there are only 44 SBs on SA who list themselves in Tokyo and who have logged onto their SA accounts within the last month! The pool of possibilities is quite small.

In other places, especially in the English-speaking world, SA has huge female membership on the other hand. For example, in NYC SA has no less than 661 SBs who have logged into their accounts TODAY! The numbers are overwhelming in fact...trying to make a selection is like looking at one of those restaurant menus that seems to be 50 pages long. NYC is probably the most extreme example, but other large US cities plus London plus major Canadian and Australian cities etc have very big SA memberships.

So, even if one is going to stick to UC entirely in Tokyo (and, yes, I realize this is *T*AG), it may well be worth using SA if you travel frequently and are interested in sugar dating elsewhere, as indeed I do and am.

-Ww

 

[meiji]

I think the other significant differences between UC and SA is that UC verifies that the girls are real and actually look like their pictures, and UC more or less states that the girls are willing to do the 'sugar' part of the sugarbaby relationship. SA is pretty much a standard dating website targeted for sugarbabies and sugar daddies, and since it's a for-pay website might have fake profiles that message you to pay to join up. Not saying that's actually what happens, but at least with UC you get one free trial run before paying up.

 

[Zaphod222]

And at least to date I can say that no UC dates have been too put off by my age or looks. Just lucky I guess.

Money is the great equalizer. Look at it this way: George Soros has a 17-year old Brazilian model girlfriend. If she is not put off by *his* looks, you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Wwanderer]

I agree, meiji, that there is a big effect along those general lines.

I think the major reason that the "yield" of good dates from UC settings is so much higher than for first meetings of SBs via SA is that a woman has to be reasonably serious about sugar dating to get her profile on UC. She has to take the time and effort to get herself dressed up and looking good and to go in and be interviewed, photographed and video taped by the UC staff, which is surely an intimidating or even scary prospect for many or most of the ladies. By contrast, a woman can put up an SA profile without leaving her keyboard and while relaxing in her comfy old bathrobe...perhaps just as a lark or drunken prank or whatever to see what responses come in. If you compare the profile created dates and last login dates on SA, it is obvious that lots of the profiles were put up by women who were never seriously interested or who soon lost interest. Often they are only a few days apart or even the same day!

Indeed, you don't even need to be female to post an SB profile on SA. It is rumored that some of the hottest and most provocative/encouraging SB profiles are posted by gay men who then try to get the SDs who respond to send sexy and/or revealing photos of themselves. Etc.

Imo, you do get the quality you pay for on UC on *average*...which is not to say that you cannot find some SBs of equal quality on SA. It just takes more time and effort to locate them.

-Ww

 

[Serenity Now]

Money is the great equalizer. Look at it this way: George Soros has a 17-year old Brazilian model girlfriend. If she is not put off by *his* looks, you have nothing to worry about.

Guess I'll take that as a compliment...

And while I like to think that my personality and attitude helps me get along with my UC dates and makes getting a follow-up date easier I am not naive enough to think that money is not the main motivator for the SBs.

SN...

 

[Zaphod222]

I am just dealing with the other side of the sugardaddy thing here. My keijiban girl cancelled the last date, and since then I have not heard from her. So either she is really busy, or she dumped me already? I know this is stupid, but I feel kind of broken hearted. She is so damned cute, and I absolutely wanted to see her again. But this is not a situation with a shop and a schedule; this is a compensated girlfriend. And if they want to cut off a relationship, they do it like this; cold cut without any formalities. I´ll survive, but notice the keijiban thing is much more emotionial than a deli health.

 

[Wwanderer]

the keijiban thing is much more emotionial than a deli health.

I couldn't agree more, based on my own experiences...

It was implicitly referring to this fact above where I wrote " a lot more than mere money, sex and pleasant companionship is involved in these arrangements." I probably should have written "can be involved" though.

And it is probably worth saying that in some cases strong emotions can develop on the other side of the bed too, so to speak.

-Ww

 

[Serenity Now]

I would agree whole heartedly with the last 2 posts.

While (knock on wood) I have not been cut off by either of my 2 favorite UC SBs I would take it hard if they did decide they did not want to meet anymore.

SB dating is way more emotionally involved than using services like AM etc. Makes it way more enjoyable but it also means dealing with possible emotional issues of a 'breakup'.

SN...

 

[Wwanderer]

"Every form of refuge has its price", as The Eagles told us back in the '70s.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

A few TAG participants have identified themselves as UC members. Is there anyone else here that uses or has used SA?

Please pardon my self-quotation, but I'd like to repeat this inquiry from my IP above. Am I really the only TAG participant who has tried SA so far?

-Ww

 

[drewz]

Please pardon my self-quotation, but I'd like to repeat this inquiry from my IP above. Am I really the only TAG participant who has tried SA so far?

I signed up ages ago but never paid so couldn't use the site. Your example inspired me to take another look, but I must say that the girls look pretty low quality compared to UC and there's only a handful near Tokyo... Your typical Russians, models who could probably only get work in Asia, a girl on antidepressants... I'd be a bit afraid of running into crazies, need a ton of screening!

 

[Wwanderer]

Your impressions of the Tokyo SA opportunities are not too different from mine, drewz. At any given time, I can typically find only one to three women on SA that I'd want to meet. The same number for UC is at least a couple of dozen and probably more. Plus when you meet them, things go well with the UC women much more reliably as far as I can judge. Still, all of that said, there are real gems to be found via SA if you invest the necessary time and effort into screening and filtering, so to speak. By far the best sugar arrangement I've ever experienced, a spectacularly wonderful one, was with a woman I met through SA.

And there definitely are crazies lurking on SA (and there may well be some on UC too, of course). A few years ago I had an SA sugar date with probably the most beautiful woman I've ever gone out with, but it was hell. Her personality was so unpleasant and even scary that I contemplated jumping out of a moving taxi just to get away from her at one point in the evening! :-/

-Ww

 

[Zaphod222]

A few years ago I had an SA sugar date with probably the most beautiful woman I've ever gone out with, but it was hell. Her personality was so unpleasant and even scary that I contemplated jumping out of a moving taxi just to get away from her at one point in the evening! :-/

LOL, I know exactly what you are talking about. I had a date once (not compensated, just Roppongi) with a Japanese/Chinese who was a combination of nymphomaniac and psychopath and getting worse with every drink. I did not dare to fall asleep during the night, because my kitchen with sharp knifes was next door... Eeek

 

[Wwanderer]

Well Z, I'm sure you've heard the old (and false, imo) saying that the crazy ones are the best in bed..."Every form of refuge has its price!"

Anyway, while I don't have any reason to think that SA or any other sugar dating site has more than its normal share of crazies (women or men), the population of the sugar bowl probably is made up of people who are more risk tolerant, bold, adventurous, open minded etc than the population at large. In other words, typical/conventional folks aren't very likely to even give sugar arrangements a try. In my book that is a major advantage of the sugar world.

-Ww

 

[GoldenDalton]

If I make it in life one day ill try such an arrangement. To expensive for me at the moment.

 

[Serenity Now]

At times a little expensive for me too, but you only live once...

But seriously, yes, it can be expensive, but in my opinion most of the time you do get good value for money with SB dating.

SN...

 

[Wwanderer]

Basically ditto what SN said...

Sugar dating will certainly be more expensive than "stop & pop" type shops, like typical Pink Salons or happy ending massage places, but is not necessarily a more costly way to go than seeing upscale escorts or going to high quality soaplands and other such top end p4p possibilities. Compared to those options, a lot depends on how much you value the companionship and fun you can have with an SB outside the bedroom. And as discussed in this thread, there are more and less expensive forms of sugar dating available...with some compromises required if you want/need to pay less of course.

-Ww

 

[Serenity Now]

I guess not too many people go for Asian Mystique's 'dinner course' but for reference at Y65,000 plus the cost of dinner and the LH an SB date is not too bad.

Cost is similar even with the one-time UC setting fee, after that if you click with the SB it gets lower. And with an SB there is a chance of creating a connection between dates which will never happen with services like AM by design.

Of course I realize that people use AM for the absolute anonymity and ease of setting it up, did so myself in my early days in Tokyo. And for one-time or in frequent visitors UC or other SB offerings are not so practical.

And of course the cost cannot compared with the various massage & happy ending places.

I guess they all exist based on supply and demand. Certainly respect that we all want different things from the hobby scene, each to his own.

Certainly not pushing UC in any way but for me when I compare at least AM & UC, SB dating is not outrageously priced. And I have to agree with Ww that I have also found that a lot of the fun of an SB date is the time spent outside the bedroom.

SN...

 

[Wwanderer]

Professional educators use the concept of "contact hours" to distinguish between work time actually spent with students and the time spent in other activities such as grading, preparing lessons, meeting with colleagues etc. One way of expressing the point SN and I are making above is that while sugar dating has a much higher cost per pop than many other forms of p4p, it is far more competitive in terms of cost per contact hour and, if one is fortunate and finds a particularly compatible SB, it can easily turn out to be a lot cheaper per contact hour than any alternative.

-Ww

 

[Zaphod222]

One way of expressing the point SN and I are making above is that while sugar dating has a much higher cost per pop than many other forms of p4p

I am not even sure about that. I gave my Keijiban girl 30,000 and spent 3 hours in the LH where I managed 3 pops. If you purely count time, that is in the range of Thai delivery service like Hipness. If count hours in the cheap Chinese FS places where you get an 1 hour for 15,000 yen, you´d end up paying 45,000 for 3 hours (if the tencho even allows that; he does not want 1 guy interrupting the conveyor belt).

The difference seems to me that you can not cut the sugardaddy date into minuscule slices where all the trimmings are removed and you just get your quick pop.