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User#8628

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This has happened to me before with Japanese guys, but recently it happened (for the first time i can recall) with a non Japanese guy, so i thought it may be usefull to ask you guys advice on this matter.

I wont share anything about this guy's identity and don't wanna post screenshots of private messages, but i'll try to explain this recent situation and the similar situations i had with Japanese guys before.

The events i'm talking about occured with guys that i met through "date clubs". Date clubs are a bit troublesome to work with, quite some communication problems between all parties, but i have a weakness for them because they feel soooo classy to me. Rich, classy guys who have had a "background check" who put down a sweet sum of money just to MEET you and will then give you some sugar directly! I like it!

However, a problem has occured in here. I usually don't have a problem at the first date because the clubs discretely communicate what a girl is expecting and the guys are usually excited for the meeting and already paid a lot so usually want to do more than having a dinner.

My problem is with repeat dates. Sometimes these days are at different times of the day or in different settings... So i usually ask guys to give me a general idea what to expect so we don't have a misunderstanding and no one gets disappointed. However, some guys take this the wrong way. Especially Japanese guys seem sensitive about money questions, it can be a benefit to propose a monthly support to Japanese guys who think a gift per date is not romantic or are paranoid about legal issues.
However, with someone who doesn't live in Japan that usually doesn't work well.

I simply want to ask guys if i can expect the same from the second date as from the first one. I can understand some guys want to go with the flow rather than commit but they must have a general idea of what they want and they leave me hanging by not telling me. Its hard to enjoy a date if you are not sure on what purpose you are there. And there are actually guys who think a girl depends on their mercy. When i just started sugar dating (quite before escorting) a guy i saw regulary asked if he could give me a bit less than we agreed on before because he made a loss at stocktrade. While that was not my fault however i was understanding about it and he was a good regular so i gladly agreed on the discount. The nasty thing about this was that he asked me after we had spend the date, not before. However, i was naive and didn't blame him. He continued to give me the lower agreement on our next dates but again, he was a good regular so i was just happy about his support. Until one day after a date we went shopping and then he wanted to go home. I asked him if he didn't forget about something and he said that the thing he bought me was "expensive" so that he didn't expect he had to give me an allowance. Not a problem per se but we didn't agree on that before and i may have needed he money more than the cloth so he should have told me before really. He gave me the allowance and we never met after that. I don't like to end things on these terms but guys make it difficult for me. Also this guy in question.

The real question i wanted to ask is if there is any way to confirm there will be a compensation without sounding sleasy or greedy.
I tried to set up a meeting with this non japanese guy recenly and first casually asked if things would be the same as our first date. He said he didn't know what i meant. So i asked him as nicely as i could if it would include a meal, private time and the same compensation as before. I didn't mention any hard numbers and tried to word it as carefully as i could. I wonder if "private time" sounds sleasy or nasty. I think a term like that also turned a japanese guy off previously but i just dont know how to word it any nicer and still make it clear what i meant.
Anyway, this guy didn't take the question too well and didn't want to meet anymore. Maybe there were some other factors but this was definitely the last straw. I still don't know what he expected from the meeting he proposed.

So what i wanted to say and ask to guys: if you do sugar dating, i'm sure your baby would appreciate if you are clear about your intentions in a classy way, especially when there is no monthly allowance in place.

And my question: is there any way to ask what i can expect on a repeat date in a classy way which makes it still clear what i mean? Is it better not to ask anything and how will i know a guy's intentions in that case? I really wonder if there is any way to solve problems like this in a nice way or if it's better just to write guys off if they want you to totally depend on their generosity and mercy and think any clarity is too cold and businesslike?
 
So, I won't chime in too much as I'm inexperienced in this particular world personally.. And know absolutely nothing about Japan .. So I'll leave this for the most part for @Wwanderer and @just4fun and whomever else..

But I will relate what I'm familiar with:
I will say that it looks like a clash between the "old" and the "new" to me .. the "new" being the currently more blunt/obvious world when it comes to Sugar Dating whereas in the "old days" it was more hush hush and obfuscated?

I used to know a girl who dated many older men back before SeekingArrangement, etc. ever existed. She was in her 20's not an escort and had a day job as a receptionist at a law firm.
She depended on the generosity of these men to live her lifestyle above and beyond her job.. BUT, due to the unclear nature of it all, she would become highly manipulative about it! She would whine about her clothes, apartment, other things she wanted, spending money for her to spend with her girlfriends, etc. So I think that's part of the trade-off.. She never once talked about "sugar dating" "sugar daddy" or anything else. Just that she was "dating" these men and they would give her "gifts" .. that she would wring out of them by being emotionally manipulative and would do so on a non-exclusive basis without telling them..

The most extreme example I saw of this wasn't live or in person but was probably around 10-15 years ago on TV:

This girl was gorgeous, looked sort of like Amal Clooney and was on a talk show where she sat beside a bunch of more trashy looking girls that talked about their sugar daddies and what they would get their men to buy them. They claimed they never had sex with them and they were just getting these gifts, handbags, jewellery etc. When it came to her, she admitted she slept with her men, and she did it often.. But she also got them to buy her cars, pay for her apartment, fund lavish vacations, etc. The other girls were shocked. She detailed clearly how she would heavily research each of the men she was introduced to at parties, learn about their interests, figured out where they liked to go on vacation, etc. She would systematically target them, bump into them at fundraisers and parties, focus on their interests, it was fascinating.
 
Alice I guess from what I can read.....These are japanese men, right? So you pretty much deal with them the right way......But for me....Just tell me straight out.....And I know they know the deal....the were just taking advantage of your kindness....Because you are really so sweet..... You work.....hard....and you are most likely at the top of the escort empire.....So they wanted to play.....they should pay without even a conversation.....!
 
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And I'm not clear on this sugar dating? Exactly what do you mean by it Alice? Awaken me please....
 
So, I won't chime in too much as I'm inexperienced in this particular world personally.. And know absolutely nothing about Japan .. So I'll leave this for the most part for @Wwanderer and @just4fun and whomever else..

But I will relate what I'm familiar with:
I will say that it looks like a clash between the "old" and the "new" to me .. the "new" being the currently more blunt/obvious world when it comes to Sugar Dating whereas in the "old days" it was more hush hush and obfuscated?

I used to know a girl who dated many older men back before SeekingArrangement, etc. ever existed. She was in her 20's not an escort and had a day job as a receptionist at a law firm.
She depended on the generosity of these men to live her lifestyle above and beyond her job.. BUT, due to the unclear nature of it all, she would become highly manipulative about it! She would whine about her clothes, apartment, other things she wanted, spending money for her to spend with her girlfriends, etc. So I think that's part of the trade-off.. She never once talked about "sugar dating" "sugar daddy" or anything else. Just that she was "dating" these men and they would give her "gifts" .. that she would wring out of them by being emotionally manipulative and would do so on a non-exclusive basis without telling them..

The most extreme example I saw of this wasn't live or in person but was probably around 10-15 years ago on TV:

This girl was gorgeous, looked sort of like Amal Clooney and was on a talk show where she sat beside a bunch of more trashy looking girls that talked about their sugar daddies and what they would get their men to buy them. They claimed they never had sex with them and they were just getting these gifts, handbags, jewellery etc. When it came to her, she admitted she slept with her men, and she did it often.. But she also got them to buy her cars, pay for her apartment, fund lavish vacations, etc. The other girls were shocked. She detailed clearly how she would heavily research each of the men she was introduced to at parties, learn about their interests, figured out where they liked to go on vacation, etc. She would systematically target them, bump into them at fundraisers and parties, focus on their interests, it was fascinating.
Yes, the traditional way of sugar dating sounds a lot like hostessing and it can be the most lucrative way to get money from guys in Japan (and other places) if you're good at it but i'm not good at it and don't like it.
I wont shy away to tell a (japanese) guy that i need some support for my life but i'm not gonna come with sobstories for insane amounds of money.

I also don't like how much time you have to invest in a guy and some guys wont take the bait, but other guys would and lose all their money on some girl with a sad story... No, i rather have some kind of understanding that we both know about, and it can be discrete and girlfriend like but we both have to know roughly what will be given and delivered on a meeting. The understanding can become quiet later but i think the should be comfirmed at moments like the second date if its not exactly clear already.

To me, being hold up for hours and not receiving anything would be the same as for a guy to give a lot of money and the girl leaves 10 minutes after or so, not fair in both cases. And unlike some girls i dont prefer dinner and conversation that much over intimate time so i can't really say afterwards "oh well, i didn't get money, but i didn't give him anything" because i dont mind giving intimacy and i do mind spending my time with a guy who doesn't take care of me while i could have spend my time differently.

Interestingly, a lot of the girls who fo the "old fashioned" style sugar dating or do hostessing often don't have sex with their daddies because sex kind of takes the spell and the excitement away and the guy feels like he has already scored with her and doesn't have to take care of her anymore.

Anyway, i consider myself good at giving GFE and not too direct and aggressive about money but i think i better not worry about losing guys who feel insulted if i want to take our a few words and one minute to confirm what to expect from our date, right? Because i am not looking for games and i don't want to beg them for money. I probably shouldn't want to keep seeing guys like that.
 
And I'm not clear on this sugar dating? Exactly what do you mean by it Alice? Awaken me please....
You can read more about this in the sugar dating forum. It's basically guys who go on longer dates with girls (like dinners, and other outings, usually ending the date in a hotel room) who see the girls regulary.
Sometimes, if the guy lives close to the girl and sees her regulary they can make a monthly financial arrangement. But a guy can also give money per date. But its a bit less formal than escorting, the amound of time you spend together is usually not decided beforehand and you can't really go overtime unless one of the two of you has to leave for something. The amound of money is usually fixed beforehand, no matter how long time you stay together. And the date is usually for a big part outside (like in a restaurant) and often the talking and dating part is just as or more important than the part spend in the hotel room.
 
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And I'm not clear on this sugar dating? Exactly what do you mean by it Alice? Awaken me please....

You might want to check out the first thread in this forum, the link it contains to the SeekingArrangement website, and several other old threads in this forum about sugar dating in general. @User#8628 seems to be focusing on a rather specific question/issue in this thread.

At the risk of immodesty, let me recommend this thread to answer some of your questions:

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/differences-between-sugar-dating-and-traditional-p4p.10546/

-Ww
 
Sound the same as what you can get from an escort......outside time.....inside time......Whats the advantage of sugar dating.....I don't see it.... You can still go out with whom ever you please.....so what does a man get out of this......? Is this sugar dating suppose to be like a real relationship? Sorry for all the questions....but I like to hear your responds.....all the time....Hope I'm not wasting your time Alice....
 
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I'll leave this for the most part for @Wwanderer and @just4fun and whomever else...

I'm not sure that I can contribute all that much. For starters, @User#8628 already knows exactly how I handle such matters with her, and it is the same general way I approach all sugar arrangements.

Namely, I talk about the financial component of the arrangement as explicitly, directly and clearly as I can...and as the SB will tolerate (some get uncomfortable) to make sure the two of us are on the same page and know exactly how it is going to go. If I depart from "the plan" at all, I try to do so in the generous direction...like giving a gift or throwing in a bit of extra money when there is a need. Once we have a clear understanding, I tend not to discuss or even mention it for some period of time as long as everything is going well. Then occasionally I revisit the topic to see if it is still satisfactory or, in some cases, to propose some other way of handling the finances.

One consequence of "my system" is that my SBs don't have the problem that Alice mentions, i.e., of trying to coax my intentions out of me with hints or polite questions etc.

On reading the OP it occurred to me that on a second or third date some SBs will tell me at some length how they spent the money or how much they enjoyed whatever they did or bought with it or how much it helped them...that sort of thing. Possibly this is intended (sometimes at least) as a subtle reminder of the financial side of the sugar. So maybe that is one possible way to do it...

-Ww
 
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I'm not sure that I can contribute all that much. For starters, @User#8628 already knows exactly how I handle such matters with her, and it is the same general way I approach all sugar arrangements.

-Snip-

On reading the OP it occurred to me that on a second or third date some SBs will tell me at some length how they spent the money or how much they enjoyed whatever they did or bought with it or how much it helped them...that sort of thing. Possibly this is intended (sometimes at least) as a subtle reminder of the financial side of the sugar. So maybe that is one possible way to do it...

Fair enough, I wasn't implying any sort of awkwardness with your own arrangements at all, instead, I was actually wondering whether you had any dealings with these sort of clubs and or had interacted with other Tokyo based SD's and could provide any insight into the local market or what may be going on in their psyches other than the fact that they may all be "Salt Daddies" :p
 
I'm my very limited experience...
As you say, with the date clubs they do give guys a level of understanding about the expectation of the woman. But just as there are many different expectations from women, there are equally as many types for men, who all want different things.

Personally, I would expect to pay the same as the initial date on every subsequent date until another type of arrangement has been negotiated.
This is basic common sense to me.
I think it goes without saying that you should expect that same arrangement on each date until you have established what sort of SD relationship works for both of you.

The first date is always the most expensive anyway as you have to pay the date club setting fee.

However, I'd appreciate being told in advance if I cannot expect the same service (i.e. she has her period etc), and maybe compensation could be altered accordingly.

Your question about asking about compensation is a tough one. And again, personally speaking, I would be a little offended if a new partner came out and asked what sort of compensation she required for the 2nd date. Message it sends is that she is basically just in it for the money. I'd probably just break it off at that point.
On the other hand, I presume that you have listed at the date club as being "not interested in meal only dates", in which case, the guy should know what to expect.

TBH, I have never talked about money to a SB until the 3rd or 4th date, and things are looking good for a longer term relationship. I just put money in an envelope and give it to her at the end of the date. Seems to be enough as I have yet to be refused a 2nd date.
 
I wasn't implying any sort of awkwardness with your own arrangements at all,

Oh, I didn't take it that way at all...no worries. I just wanted to explain why I don't have any experience with SBs asking about the finances for additional dates because I've already told them what to expect. I *think* that *most* SBs like it that way, but @User#8628 and @MissInsomnia could comment on that better than I can.

-Ww
 
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Your question about asking about compensation is a tough one. And again, personally speaking, I would be a little offended if a new partner came out and asked what sort of compensation she required for the 2nd date. Message it sends is that she is basically just in it for the money. I'd probably just break it off at that point.
On the other hand, I presume that you have listed at the date club as being "not interested in meal only dates", in which case, the guy should know what to expect.
So if an SB who you had a pleasurable time with before would ask the questions to you the way i did in my example you would choose not to meet her again?
I would appreciate your answer a lot.

For me, its certainly not only about the money but i need to make my financial arrangements and plannings and know what to expect. Its very important to me to feel sheltered by daddies and have them put me at ease about any possible concerns.
In particular situation, the first date had been a dinner and this second one would be a lunchdate, i had a good time with the gentleman the first time but didn't know him very well. I didn't know if a lunch date would provide us enough time for the same things as the last time, and was not sure how to read his intentions. I tried to ask it in a subtile way, just asking if the date would be under the same conditions as last time. Since we really had fun last time, i find it weird that a simple question made someone decide not to meet me.
I do have the option on my date club profile that i don't want "only dinner" dates. But you never know. I wouldn't ask for extra confirmations and security if i didn't have prior bad experience like i also mentioned in my original post (the japanese guy lowering the compensation and not telling me about his wish to do so until the end of our long dates).

Would love to hear your opinion of the original post situation if you don't mind. :)
Also keep in mind that just because you are a gentleman, not every guy is and girls may have bad experiences from prior dates which is why they want you to assure them things.
 
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So if an SB who you had a pleasurable time with before would ask the questions to you the way i did in my example you would choose not to meet her again?
I would appreciate your answer a lot.
I've only chosen the "depends on feelings" date options to date. If it ends well then I pay what I think is a reasonable amount.
I would expect to pay the same on subsequent dates, and would hope that would fall in line with her expectations as well.
I've had one experience where after the 2nd date (during which all she talked about was her financial situation) and after that she contacted me and asked when we would next be meeting and how much could she expect to receive. I did call it off at that point.

If I had chosen a "not interested in dinner only" date, then talking about compensation is not an issue. You know what you are getting into, and would expect it.
Leaving it to the end of the date is just a douche thing to do. Major red flag!

I also have the sneaky suspicion that while there are true wealthy gentlemen in these clubs, a lot of guys overstate their wealth, and try to get a cheaper deal.

So to answer your question...
The real question i wanted to ask is if there is any way to confirm there will be a compensation without sounding sleasy or greedy.
If you were happy with the compensation after the first date, then I think it is wrong to ask. However if he decreases the amount at the 2nd date, then for sure you should confirm his expectations and let him know yours for any further appointments.
 
If you were happy with the compensation after the first date, then I think it is wrong to ask.

@User#8628 asked you explicitly and I'm sure wanted a truthful answer, so I don't want this to come across like I am criticizing you for telling her what you think...a good thing that you did imo. However and fwiiw, I disagree with you in a very general and fundamental way. Here's why/how:

It is a cliché for an excellent reason that good communications are critical to a successful relationship, and imo and ime, that goes double or triple or more for unconventional ones where neither person can rely on social scripts or cultural norms to provide a reasonable idea of what the other person is thinking, feeling, wanting, expecting etc. In those relationships it is hugely important for both people to feel free to talk about pretty much anything and everything relevant to their connection in a very honest, direct and open way. Tiptoeing around possibly sensitive topics and feelings is an excellent way to wander into a minefield. I'd say this is true of all sorts of unconventional relationships, of which sugar dating is but one example. In other words if my SB or potential SB is wondering about just about anything, I'd far rather her just ask me straight than that it remain in the back (or front) of her mind as a doubt or worry, thus interfering with her enjoyment of our time together. You might say that this is easier said than done, but all it really requires is cutting your sugar partner some slack and laying aside any impulse one might have to be insulted or hurt by honesty.

I joined SA ten years ago next month (!!!) and had sugar-like relationship long before that terminology and that website appeared, and I have as yet to regret an honest comment or question from or to an SB.

-Ww
 
In other words if my SB or potential SB is wondering about just about anything, I'd far rather her just ask me straight than that it remain in the back (or front) of her mind as a doubt or worry, thus interfering with her enjoyment of our time together. You might say that this is easier said than done, but all it really requires is cutting your sugar partner some slack and laying aside any impulse one might have to be insulted or hurt by honesty.
I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate the comments. But I'm not so sure openness and frankness are applicable in this situation.
@User#8628 is dealing with a Japanese dude, and he seems to be a bit flakey.
With Japan being the land of the indirect, in her situation she may find that asking directly is not the best way to establish the relationship, or to get what she wants out of it.

I personally think that for her to establish a longer term, regular relationship she needs to vet out the cheapskates.
The 2nd date is make or break. If he lowers his gift, then send him packing. If he offers the same or more, then he may be a keeper.

Anyway, like I say, I don't have that much experience, but this is how I would play it.
 
Appearantly this question is a lot more sensitive than i thought. Thanks for clearing this up. :)

What i'm personally looking for in sugar dates is certainly not to higher the allowance more and more or to talk about my financial trouble all the time. I just like security and stable appointments and knowing what to expect. Of course i always deliver my part.

But its very true that you have to weed out the cheapskates with sugar dating, and any advice for ways to do so is welcome. :)
 
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I don't think it's an especially sensitive question, and for me, a member of Universe Club, it's an easy question to answer - if I meet someone a second, third etc time I assume the terms of the original financial arrangement continue.

In my particular case, I have been in a sugarbabe "relationship" for about a year now, and the nature of our relationship means that the financial support is provided in many different ways, sometimes pocket money, sometimes clothes, sometimes jewellery, but always making sure these are things she wants.

Nevertheless, I use "relationship" as I think it is important to recognize that while I have formed a close connection with my sugarbabe, and that we enjoy each other's company, it remains a mutually convenient arrangement - we are not boyfriend/girlfriend and either of us is free to end the arrangement if we choose.

I think where sugarbabe arrangements can go wrong is 1) the guy loses track of reality and deceives themselves into believing it is a regular boyfriend/girlfriend situation where there is no need to provide financial support or 2) the guy sees the ongoing arrangement as an opportunity to be negotiate i.e. is a cheapskate!
 
I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate the comments. But I'm not so sure openness and frankness are applicable in this situation.
@User#8628 is dealing with a Japanese dude, and he seems to be a bit flakey.
With Japan being the land of the indirect, in her situation she may find that asking directly is not the best way to establish the relationship, or to get what she wants out of it.

I take your point as well but still disagree at least tentatively...depending on whether @User#8628's goal is to establish what I would call an escort-style relationship with a client or to pursue a real sugar-dating type of relationship with an SD. In the former case, I think that you are right that she needs to proceed more indirectly and not say what is on her mind on any potentially sensitive topic. However, if it is the latter case, I think that my advice is better and that she should ask if she is wondering and in general should be open and direct in her communications.

The reason that the difference between the two cases is critical is implicit in this old post of mine:

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/differences-between-sugar-dating-and-traditional-p4p.10546/

Specifically, in what I consider sugar dating an SB is not just looking for someone who will give her financial support and whose company she can at least minimally tolerate and accept (in and out of bed) but rather is looking for someone with whom she seriously enjoys spending time. In other words, selection of sugar dating partners is about more than weeding out the cheapskates; it is also about weeding out guys who are not going to be any fun on dates. My point is that if the guy is so sensitive, insecure and clueless (about the realities of sugar dating) that he blows up and "walks away" the first time Alice asks a perfectly reasonable question in a polite and sensitive way, he is not likely to be a satisfactory SD anyway. How much fun can she have with him if she is constantly having to worry about offending or upsetting him with the slightest remark or question? So, from that perspective, her question was also a part of the screening process.

Anyway, my 2 yen worth...

-Ww
 
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Opps!! Damn you old eyes (mine not yours WW:p).
I just reread the original post and it was a Non-Japanese who bailed after being asked by Alice.
I don't think it would change my opinion however, in that she should at least expect the same compensation without having to ask.

Looks like we're gonna have to disagree on this one. As the Japanese say 十人十色 (Ju-nin to-iro 10 people/10 colors)

I'd be interested to know how some of the Japanese SB on here would approach it.
 
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Looks like we're gonna have to disagree on this one. As the Japanese say 十人十色 (Ju-nin to-iro 10 people/10 colors)

I do see it as a judgement call on which rational people can disagree, pros and cons to both options.

-Ww
 
Hi Alice,
As a non-Japanese who is very familiar with the SD/SB concept, I think you are right to be clear about what you want. I've met girls for the first time over a drink or coffee to talk about what we are looking for and to get a sense of our comfort with each other and attraction to each other. I always make it clear during that time that sex is definitely part of the arrangement. I try to make that point subtly at first but will say it directly if need be; not every SB is willing to have sex. I like it when the girl is also direct. I don't want to go into further dates and have the subject of money to come up again and again so I'm happy to agree at that first meeting what future expectations are. I'm sure not all guys feel the same but you have one fan of direct talk here.
 
While I don't have a lot of experience in this, I can tell you what I'd prefer:

Online, or via text or somewhere where I'm not looking at you is the time I'd prefer to work out the numbers and specifics of the arrangement. When I was on SA, I would usually spell things out very clearly to the girl, including expectations for the relationship, remuneration, etc. When we meet, money isn't talked about at all. If we agreed on a per date basis, and a general time frame (40k / date, twice a month, usually on x day of the week), I want the girl to assume that everything is the same until otherwise discussed at a later date. So we do the trial date (usually I pay for food and transportation, plus a smaller fee), a simple "Okay, I'll see you again next Friday" is me trying to communicate with the girl that I agree to the terms previously discussed online and it's game on.

I've never been to date clubs beyond Deai cafes (not sure if this is what you're talking about, but I imagine you're talking a bit more upscale), but even those, terms are outlined before the "date" begins, then we change locations to start the actual date, where again, money isn't discussed.

I can understand the desire for wanting everything spelled out, but at the same time, it's also important to preserve the fantasy of the relationship being about more than just money. When the girl starts talking about money on the date with me, it makes her appear as if she's only interested in the money, something that would turn me off to a continued relationship. If I'm sugar dating, I don't want a prostitute, I want a girlfriend-ish relationship.