Sexually Transmitted Disease (std) Talk

Discussion in 'Questions, Answers & Warnings' started by TheDutchElm, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. TheDutchElm

    TheDutchElm TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    161
    When I read reviews like this (which was excellent by the way, don't get me wrong), I have to wonder who in their right mind is foolish enough to request BBFS.
     
  2. Zaphod222

    Zaphod222 TAG Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jun 14, 2015
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    136
    Same here, but there seems to be a vocal minority here for which that is simply a "sexual preference". Good luck with that topic...
     
    Jennifer Maddingly likes this.
  3. John Munch

    John Munch TAG Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jun 21, 2020
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    26
    Agreed, it's a mystery to me too. Most of the Korean delivery shops I have spoken with, which includes several not listed in my report, say they don't offer bareback.
     
  4. TheDutchElm

    TheDutchElm TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    161
    The only thing I have to say to guys who request BBFS is "thanks for making it that much more dangerous for the rest of us".
     
  5. Wwanderer

    WwandererWwanderer is a Verified Member Kids, don't try this at home!

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Last Seen:
    Nov 23, 2019
    Messages:
    7,049
    Likes Received:
    15,771
    BB in general and BBFS in particular are such touchy emotional topics that I won't offer any personal opinions in a public forum, but here are a couple of points that I think are simply factual:

    - BB/BBFS is MUCH MUCH more common than one would conclude based on what escorts and agencies and other mongers will admit in any public way or even when asked directly in private by anyone whom they perceive as preferring strictly safe-sex. "I never have unprotected sex in p4p situations" is the politically correct answer, in effect, for both sex-workers and their customers.

    - If *you* only have covered sex in p4p situations, your risk of catching something from a partner who is not so absolutely careful (i.e., who sometimes does BB) is quite minimal and probably considerably smaller than other risks you routinely take by being involved in prostitution and in life generally, especially if you are the guy/customer. In other words, as long as you insist on using condoms, there's no need for you to worry excessively about what others in the hobby are doing.

    -Ww
     
  6. User#3673

    User#3673 TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Aug 24, 2015
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    87
    Agree with both of you. A relative of mine is a doctor and bareback is Russian roulette. He doesn`t even like my CFS "hobby."
     
    emiliapoesy likes this.
  7. TheDutchElm

    TheDutchElm TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    161
    What is relevant is that those of us who don't want to get infected by something are limited by those who don't care or don't know the risk (client or agent).

    The reason not everyone can bareback is that some people bareback. It seems contradictory, but that's how disease works.
     
  8. Zaphod222

    Zaphod222 TAG Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jun 14, 2015
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    136
    I completely get it and agree, but boy did I get lambasted here for saying as much. For some, you know, this is a "sexual preference" and nothing more. I guess the same people think that peeing in the public pool is a "swimming preference". Good luck with changing their minds...
     
    Ettore2011 and impish like this.
  9. Wwanderer

    WwandererWwanderer is a Verified Member Kids, don't try this at home!

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Last Seen:
    Nov 23, 2019
    Messages:
    7,049
    Likes Received:
    15,771
    Fwiiw and to be clear, I definitely would not call it a matter of sexual preference; rather I would call it a matter of individual risk tolerance/aversion. It is somewhat like the issue of whether or not motorcyclists should be required to wear helmets or motorists required to wear seat belts or smokers required to partake only in private or outdoors etc. It is a trade-off between letting people making decisions about their own behavior that primarily affects them but which also has some consequences for others versus having their individual behaviors determined by the preferences of the whole affected community. Such things tend to be controversial, to put it mildly, and there are pros and cons to both sides of the debate.

    The obvious and important difference in this case is that it is much much harder, virtually impossible, for the community to impose its will on the individuals re safe sex than it is for motorcyclists, motorists, smokers etc. This leaves the topic controversial but makes the debate rather useless, i.e., without practical consequences.

    -Ww
     
    Jimmydr likes this.
  10. TheDutchElm

    TheDutchElm TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    161
    Oh, I'm not under a delusion that I can save the world here. ;) It's just more like drunk driving than it is like not wearing a motorcycle helmet.
     
    bichan2 and Zaphod222 like this.
  11. Zaphod222

    Zaphod222 TAG Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jun 14, 2015
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    136
    Yes, but at least you can say something when someone starts bragging about driving drunk or peeing in the pool. Just imho.
     
  12. oppai_seijin

    oppai_seijin TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Wednesday
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    40
    "Although oral sex is a relatively low-risk activity, particularly when compared to vaginal or anal sex, it is possible to transmit HIV through oral sex"

    hence; BBBJ
     
    Marulken likes this.
  13. meiji

    Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Last Seen:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Messages:
    3,358
    Likes Received:
    4,857
    This is a general thread for discussing STDs and different behaviors that might leave one partner or the other open to disease transmission, including sexual contact without a condom.

    This is a very sensitive topic, so please post constructively.

    Note: Posts from other threads that veer from the topic at hand and become a conversation about STDs or BBFS will be moved here.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    TheDutchElm likes this.
  14. Wwanderer

    WwandererWwanderer is a Verified Member Kids, don't try this at home!

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Last Seen:
    Nov 23, 2019
    Messages:
    7,049
    Likes Received:
    15,771
    Thank you, TAG management. This mechanism (single stickied thread) is a great way to deal with the STDs and BB topic!

    Here's a contribution:

    Just in case anyone is naive enough to be misled, you should NOT imagine that going to a shop where the techno says "CFS only" means that the women there conform to the shop rules. They obviously could, and in reality often do, accept a tip to "forget" to use a condom without the shop management being any the wiser. To be clear, I am not saying this happens at the shop Z mentions in his post quoted above (although I'd guess it does sometimes). I am only saying that anyone wanting to avoid p4p partners who do BBFS cannot rely on the techno's word...nor anyone else involved actually. Common sense I suppose but maybe worth mentioning.

    -Ww
     
    Ettore2011 likes this.
  15. GoldenDalton

    GoldenDalton TAG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Last Seen:
    Jul 9, 2015
    Messages:
    542
    Likes Received:
    182
    I would never do fs bareback , out of fear of warts. I've only done the full on escorting thing once though, and i even insisted on cbj, so I don't have the experience to judge anyone.


    At the same time, I do think I can contribute when discussing risk of HIV.

    For all you hetero guys ( and even to a lesser extent gals,) HIV risk has been greatly inflated. In my opinion in the U. S. at least you have two forces- elements from the left and the anti- promiscuity elements of the right, joining hands in a massive psychological cockblock of disinformation.

    I say this because I spent a year doing mercenary work in Malawi and learned just how much my generation had been lied to about aids. Malawi is a country truly ravaged by HIV/aids. At one poiny i slipped and fell on a rathet large pool of blood On the floor. Later on when I realized how much got on me i got worried. The docs wouldn't even test me. They said that the vast majority of people with HIV /aids in Africa have a number of other health conditions that make them ripe for infection and illness. One of them chuckled at the idea of my getting tested. There were two instances of actual needle stick and neither of those employees were infected. I had a test back home two years later and was negative. The patient whose blood got on me later died from tb.


    I'm saying all this to calm anyone who reads this while dealing with fear nevause of a broken condom. Ive bever gad a broken condom. Never had an infectious disease, and ive pulled security in the most horrific conditions concievable. You can get a lot of stds. No denying that, but if you are not injecting drugs, not having unprotected anal sex, and don't have a Rural Malawian level immune system, you are ok as far as HIV/aids. I say this just because I feel like American cultures paranoia kind of trivializes HIV/aids- guys getting tested because a condom broke during vaginal intercourse.theu need to be tested for the clap, syphillis, etc. Aids does in fact discriminate- it preys on the abused and marginalized. Let's save the resources for the folks actually at risk.

    Just my thoughts
     
    slam01, emiliapoesy, vagabond and 4 others like this.
  16. Wwanderer

    WwandererWwanderer is a Verified Member Kids, don't try this at home!

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Last Seen:
    Nov 23, 2019
    Messages:
    7,049
    Likes Received:
    15,771
    I actually have some professional expertise re HIV infection, and GD is correct that the risks of being infected via unprotected vaginal intercourse are so low that it is arguably irrational to pay them any attention. For the woman the probability per contact with an infected partner is less than 1 in a 1000, and it is considerably lower for the man...so low that it is difficult to measure in public health studies. (This means that the investigators suspect that the cases in which men report having no risk factor except vaginal intercourse with an infected partner are due in large part to lying in order to hide other risky behaviors, such as drug use and unprotected anal sexual activity.) To put this in a more easily understandable perspective, this implies that having unprotected vaginal intercourse with 5000 **randomly selected** American partners (i.e., given infection rates in the US) would reduce a woman's life expectancy by about 10 days and a man's by significantly less. For comparison, traveling 10,000 miles per year in a car reduces your life expectancy by about 6 months and being 12 pounds overweight takes about a year off your life expectancy. Risks associated with unprotected fellatio are lower still for the receptive partner (with ejaculation in the mouth) and are again unmeasurably low for the active partner in fellatio and for cunnilingnus. Anal sex is pretty much the only reasonably common sexual activity for which protection is necessary to reduce HIV infection risk to levels that most people accept in other areas of life.

    I put emphasis on "**randomly selected**" above because this condition does not apply to partners who are professional escorts that do a lot of BBFS; they are likely to have a higher infection rate than a randomly selected woman. On the other hand, you would have to be an extraordinarily active monger (to put it mildly!) to see 5000 escorts in your life. Bottom line, you are almost certainly tolerating a far greater risk of death by earthquake or tsunami by even being in Japan than you would be exposed to if you did BBFS with every p4p partner you ever saw.

    Let me add that I urge you not to take my word for the above or to rely on *any* media or public health source of information if you are concerned about HIV risks from unprotected sex. If you are seriously concerned about the issue and don't already have your mind firmly set one way or the other, you should look into the technical/scientific literature for yourself. It isn't all that complex or hard to understand.

    Finally, leaving topics on which I have any particular expertise, I agree with GD that other STDs are a far more logical reason to insist on protection in p4p sex and that the risk of infection with non-STD diseases (unaffected by condoms), such as TB, are probably the biggest health hazard from commercial sex activities, especially in Third World countries.

    -Ww
     
    #16 Wwanderer, Oct 3, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  17. oppai_seijin

    oppai_seijin TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Wednesday
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    40
    catching STD/HIV is really scary thats why i take regular check ups(just to keep my mind at ease)
    i will not be a hypocrite and tell everyone that ive never done BBFS., and i am not saying that since i do regular check ups, it gives me the right to do BBFS.
    i never give extra just to have BBFS and i never push to have BBFS. i respect my partner and in the end i want us both to have a goodtime.
    im not as wealthy as some of you guys might be.
    im the type of guy to go hunting during the fullmoon and my preys are very well chosen.

    anyways what i want to say is i will never do BBFS with people who had been long enough in the business.
     
    impish and GoldenDalton like this.
  18. GoldenDalton

    GoldenDalton TAG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Last Seen:
    Jul 9, 2015
    Messages:
    542
    Likes Received:
    182
    Ww thanks for bringing some statistical knowledge into it. Hopefully that convinces some guys to fret a little less.

    Oppai- I agree. There is do much out that that can get you. My fear is all about the infections that don't go away, like warts. I think they have some kind of incurable clap in Japan now right? That's something else , though if guess it's relatively rare and probably has a ton of cofactors.

    Ill be back later on a pc to fix my spelling mistakes. I apologize I know they are annoying.
     
  19. Zaphod222

    Zaphod222 TAG Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jun 14, 2015
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    136
    About warts, I have some on my feet occasionally (martial arts has something to do with that). They come and go naturally. Is that really different with genital warts (not that I want to find out...). But I thought the virus that causes them is naturally on us anyway.

    About incurable clap, I am very pessimistic. I think the massive over-use of antibiotics all over the world means that the bugs gradually winning the fight, and we are heading back to the pre-antibiotic area with its bizarre treatments. For the clap that means a hot rod showed down your little general.... eek! Enjoy mongering as long as there are still some working antibiotics around.
     
    TokyoJoeblow likes this.
  20. kansai-sayuri

    kansai-sayurikansai-sayuri is a Verified Member TAG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Last Seen:
    Nov 19, 2019
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    233
    Whether or not HIV is easily transmittable vaginally or orally is essentially irrelevant. Not only do many studies contradict each other, most of which almost likely have confounding variables in their data sets, but there is still more than enough evidence of women catching it via the vaginal route for it to be considered a reasonable threat. And it would be quite a stretch to assume that all of these ladies are being untruthful. The results of awareness projects, such as in Thailand, are more than interesting showing enough correlation regardless of causation to make the use of protection a safe bet. And, at the end of the day, does it really matter if there *really* is an extremely low chance of contracting it vaginally or orally? Personally, I don't care if the chance is one in a billion.....it is simply not worth it and certainly is not responsible. There are many other good reasons for properly using protection and erring on the side of caution is not the worst idea when any uncertainty exists.

    Incidentally, as hpv is contracted by contact and condoms only cover a certain area, they are not considered terribly effective for this particular virus. The hpv varieties that commonly cause cancer are not all that obvious, for that matter. One may consider vaccination though they generally recommend it to women under the age of 27. One may also consider a dental dam when going oral with a lady since there is a decent chance that this may be a good reason for the increase in esophageal cancer in recent years. Michael Douglas certainly seems to think so........(sometimes I wish I were CatherineZ....sigh) (~_^)

    On a positive note, there is evidence to show that a penicillin hack may effectively destroy the various bugs that have become penicillin resistant, including SuperG. When a bug becomes resistant toward one type of penicillin it tends to lose its immunity toward another, meaning that while treatment (a) stopped being effective and the bug then became resistant toward treatment (b), it meanwhile lost it's strength against treatment (a), which now does work. It may keep such bugs in check for good. Let's cross our fingers and see what information comes from further studies!!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  21. TheDutchElm

    TheDutchElm TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    161
    As far as infection rates in HIV are concerned, your risk group matters more than almost any other factor. P4p undoubtedly does tend to elevate our risk level beyond a random sample. Irrespective of public survey data, without a legal, regulated sex industry, you are asking for it by running BB in p4p. And this is all setting aside the slight tinge of sociopathy in knowingly putting another person at risk, whether they consent or not.

    It's often claimed that some men BB because of sensitivity issues. But nobody ever seems to notice a failed condom or a condom that slips off -before- the deed is done. If you get a good quality, thin, properly lubricated condom, it's mostly in your head (so to speak!) ;)
     
  22. TheDutchElm

    TheDutchElm TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    161
    Ww, I take significant issue with your analysis of "you can BB 5000 random people" with little or no risk of HIV. That is not how probabilities work. Even if the chance is 1:5000 (which I must admit I am skeptical of), that is a per-encounter probability. The chances of an event with probability R occurring after N independent events is 1-(1-R)^N. if the chances of contraction are as low as 1/5000 (0.0002), the chances of infection after, say, N=50 are 1-(1-0.0002)^50=0.00995, or about 1%. That's significantly riskier than saying you can bareback 5,000 partners and on average not be infected. If you managed to live through the plethora of far more contagious std's out there to do so, HIV infection would be a practical certainty.
     
    ElongMusk and Cambo like this.
  23. Wwanderer

    WwandererWwanderer is a Verified Member Kids, don't try this at home!

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Last Seen:
    Nov 23, 2019
    Messages:
    7,049
    Likes Received:
    15,771
    TDE, thanks for the analysis; I love seeing equations in posts! But you'll have to trust me that I understand "how probabilities work". In very significant part I make my (fairly comfortable) living by understanding how probabilities work better than many/most professional analysts.

    Anyway and fwiiw, the 5000 number was chosen because it is some sort of textbook estimate of the number of times an average American has sex in his/her lifetime. So the scenario is supposed to be reductio ad absurdum - namely imagining somehow who has sex with a different, randomly selected partner each time they have sex. Of course, virtually all of these hypothetical randomly selected partners will not have an HIV infection and thus pose zero risk. The current CDC estimate of the US infection rate is around a third of a percent if I recall correctly. So, you'll only have sex with an infected partner around 17 times in your whole life, and in each of these cases, the chance of infection is something significantly under 1/1000 for the woman and even lower for the man. How low remains unknown because it is so hard to determine the number. Also note that a calculation of the effect on life expectancy needs to take into account your age, more precisely the statistical distribution of ages, at which you could contract the disease and how long you live after contracting it. Etc etc.

    This estimate of the impact of a lifetime of promiscuous BB sex is *pessimistic* in a significant way. You wrote "As far as infection rates in HIV are concerned, your risk group matters more than almost any other factor" and this is *very* true, an extremely important consideration. And, as you may know, the third of a percent of Americans who are infected with HIV are largely gay and bisexual men plus intravenous drug users, and roughly 80% of those infected with HIV are male. In other words, if you are male, only 3 or 4 of the 5000 with whom you have vaginal intercourse will be HIV positive. Wanna run the stats again with those numbers? And if you are female, your chances of having vaginal sex with a gay or bisexual man are presumably greatly reduced. In reality, virtually all women who contract HIV from vaginal intercourse do so from a bisexual or intravenous drug using partner, and they account for the majority of those very few who contract HIV by vaginal intercourse. About 4,000 Americans died of AIDS contracted via vaginal intercourse in 2010, essentially none of them (within the measurement uncertainties) were men whose only risk factor was unprotected vaginal intercourse.

    Here's a link to some relevant stats

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/basics/ataglance.html

    but Google is your friend, and you can find loads of data for yourself.

    To be clear, I am not urging anyone to do BB sex in a p4p or other context if they are uncomfortable doing so. For one thing, you won't be able to enjoy yourself if you are worrying about catching some fatal disease. What I do consider bogus is complaining about *other people* having p4p BBFS if it suits them as though it is putting you at serious risk. The numbers show that they are not even putting themselves at much risk (of HIV, other things maybe...), and if you make sure you practice safe sex yourself, the effect on your risk levels is really absurdly small. It would be like someone who is afraid of flying (as many people are despite the statistics, of course) objecting to other people flying because they are afraid a plane will crash and hit them going about their daily life on the ground.

    -Ww
     
    Solong and TAG Manager like this.
  24. Zaphod222

    Zaphod222 TAG Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jun 14, 2015
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    136
    I donĀ“t want to get involved in this, but I really take issue with that last metaphor of yours. That is so NOT it.
    If other people fly or do not fly is irrelevant for me. If other people pee in the same swimming pool that I am in (because in their mind that is their "swimming preference"), that IS relevant for me. Even if the chance of me catching any disease from that are almost zero. That is besides the point. It is about common sense and common decency.

    Please make up metaphors that make sense.
     
    LeonGRAY and TheDutchElm like this.
  25. TheDutchElm

    TheDutchElm TAG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Last Seen:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    161
    I appreciate your clarification Ww. And yes, the point is that BB in the p4p community has significantly higher risk due to cumulative effects, which was the point I was making. It's important to be accurate when making statements like "the chances are 1 in 5000", because most people aren't informed about how statistics work. The problem with your extrapolation is one we have both mentioned: we are not talking a general population interaction. We are talking about punters demanding BBFS with working girls whose BB exposure risk is vastly higher. In -this- community, insisting on BB is a fool's game.

    So I want to cordially but firmly assert that I think you are slightly missing the point of my concern. Transmission of HIV and stds in general is significant and common in the sex trade, especially where it is illegal/underground due to the volume of johns that may call on a particular girl, and given the variability in, shall we say, "class of girl patronized". It is perfectly valid to criticize BBFS as not a "personal preference", because (among other reasons) the girl one is putting at risk is a *person*, and one who will go on to have sexual encounters with other people. She is not a warm hole one is masturbating into. While it's fun to objectify and be objectified in a NSA relationship/encounter, this background fact cannot be ignored in a respectful moral framework of the hobby.

    It truly is the difference between drunk driving and not wearing a seatbelt. Insisting on BB endangers more people than yourself in a high risk environment: it endangers you AND future providers, AND other hobbyists.
     

Share This Page