So my wife and I are having a discussion about gossip and bullying with regard to culture...

TokyoJoeblow

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While we have both agreed that there are are a lot of overly direct assholes in the US that can be super rude....I pointed out how in Japan gossip is a huge problem.

Then she defended gossip. She said that because in Japan people don't want to say rude things directly to others they don't like because it "might hurt their feelings" they gossip instead and this is normal...not rude in Japan...wtf?

So naturally, I responded with...there is a saying: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Then elaborated by saying that even if there is a particular person other Japanese people don't like or downright hate, it would be best to just say nothing rather than gossip. That seemed to shut down that.

Then I brought up how bullying and gossip are huge problems in public schools throughout Japan (and other countries like South Korea) which often causes students to take their own lives...sometimes even while they are on campus!

Then get this...she actually says that it isn't rude for sempai to be rude and terrible to kohai due to the culture and that a lot of people she knows that used to be bullies in school are "nice now". Then she went on to say that the kohai that are bullied become sempai that bully the next kohai group, which goes on forever and that in the end everyone grows up and everyone is ok...then I reminded her that the ones that killed themselves didn't exactly grow up did they?

Has anyone talked with a Japanese person they know about this and have they spouted the same nonsense to you?
 
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There is no gossip and no bullying and no kid suicide in da USA?
 
There is no gossip and no bullying and no kid suicide in da USA?

Oh there is, but the US citizens don't deny it as often as the Japanese people that I have talked to about it at least.
 
There is no gossip and no bullying and no kid suicide in da USA?
Oh it definitely happens in North America, but just not as prominent....I think? I actually don't know how things are now and I don't exactly follow it. And on the flip side, is it still that bad in Japan?

And not really a fan of the whole sempai/kouhai relationship deal. I mean, I can see it being a positive experience for both parties, but as mentioned it can get really bad as well.
 
Oh it definitely happens in North America, but just not as prominent....I think? I actually don't know how things are now and I don't exactly follow it. And on the flip side, is it still that bad in Japan?

And not really a fan of the whole sempai/kouhai relationship deal. I mean, I can see it being a positive experience for both parties, but as mentioned it can get really bad as well.

I personally think the sempai/kohai part of Japanese culture is retarded for 2 big reasons:

1.) It somehow assumes that knowledge and respect is just expected with age...but these things are earned not just given because you are fucking old or getting older.

2.) It gives sadists much like Percy from the Green Mile the opportunity to mentally and physically torture younger people and get away with it because they are "sempai".

Fuck sempai and fuck kohai.
 
I personally think the sempai/kohai part of Japanese culture is retarded for 2 big reasons:

1.) It somehow assumes that knowledge and respect is just expected with age...but these things are earned not just given because you are fucking old or getting older.

2.) It gives sadists much like Percy from the Green Mile the opportunity to mentally and physically torture younger people and get away with it because they are "sempai".

Fuck sempai and fuck kohai.
Actually what makes things confusing is that sometimes the sempai doesn't necessarily have to be older. It's probably more common to see it happen in like the entertainment industry, where people can start at a very young age or enter it when they're an adult.

But yeah, rather than being good role models, it's the mentality that being a sempai means they can treat my kouhais any way I want that makes the whole relationship total BS.
 
Then get this...she actually says that it isn't rude for sempai to be rude and terrible to kohai due to the culture and that a lot of people she knows that used to be bullies in school are "nice now". Then she went on to say that the kohai that are bullied become sempai that bully the next kohai group, which goes on forever and that in the end everyone grows up and everyone is ok...then I reminded her that the ones that killed themselves didn't exactly grow up did they?

I've heard of the sempai/kohai thing before but I wasn't aware of this aspect of it. I've never come across institutionalised bullying in an education setting before (apart from reading 'Tom Brown's School Days')

There is no gossip and no bullying and no kid suicide in da USA?

Where I think the difference lies is that elsewhere bullying is generally within a particular peer group or comes about through the actions of particular individuals. Here it appears to be very much about institutionalised bullying with a culture that condones or even approves it.


That isn't to say that there isn't ritualised bullying elsewhere, for example hazing in the US university Greek system, but I understand that is for a relatively short period of time as part of a joining process rather than an ongoing thing.
 
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I've heard of the sempai/kohai thing before but I wasn't aware of this aspect of it. I've never come across institutionalised bullying in an education setting before (apart from reading 'Tom Brown's School Days')



Where I think the difference lies is that elsewhere bullying is generally within a particular peer group or comes about through the actions of particular individuals. Here it appears to be very much about institutionalised bullying with a culture that condones or even approves it.


That isn't to say that there isn't ritualised bullying elsewhere, for example hazing in the US university Greek system, but I understand that is for a relatively short period of time as part of a joining process rather than an ongoing thing.

Really? And the groups of jocks bullying the nerdy-looking guys at school or just those who are different ? And online bullying?

Guys , Japan is no role model granted but dont try to serve some BS excuses about what happens in the US or other western countries for that matter.

And regarding gossip... well you know there are even parts of this forum devoted to it , I didnt have the impression they are monopolized by the Japanese members
 
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I've done that and it was good. Though they did not play with each other so recommended but will not repeat.
It would be great if they play with each other. Especially some SM.
Senpai spanking kohai to teach them manners or a kohai punishing the senpai as revenge for bullying them.

Or maybe more softcore the wise senpai teaching the inexperienced kohai some bed techniques with the third party as practice object.
 
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While we have both agreed that there are are a lot of overly direct assholes in the US that can be super rude....I pointed out how in Japan gossip is a huge problem.

Then she defended gossip. She said that because in Japan people don't want to say rude things directly to others they don't like because it "might hurt their feelings" they gossip instead and this is normal...not rude in Japan...wtf?

So naturally, I responded with...there is a saying: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Then elaborated by saying that even if there is a particular person other Japanese people don't like or downright hate, it would be best to just say nothing rather than gossip. That seemed to shut down that.

Then I brought up how bullying and gossip are huge problems in public schools throughout Japan (and other countries like South Korea) which often causes students to take their own lives...sometimes even while they are on campus!

Then get this...she actually says that it isn't rude for sempai to be rude and terrible to kohai due to the culture and that a lot of people she knows that used to be bullies in school are "nice now". Then she went on to say that the kohai that are bullied become sempai that bully the next kohai group, which goes on forever and that in the end everyone grows up and everyone is ok...then I reminded her that the ones that killed themselves didn't exactly grow up did they?

Has anyone talked with a Japanese person they know about this and have they spouted the same nonsense to you?
There are some things you should never discuss with your Japanese wife. In fact, most things you should never discuss with your Japanese wife.
 
There are some things you should never discuss with your Japanese wife. In fact, most things you should never discuss with your Japanese wife.

She often drags me into these "discussions" which are more like rants on foreigners. What triggers these is when she is having a stressful day at work and especially if there was a rude/annoying foreigner that came into her store. She contradicts herself all the time. She once even told me that most of the foreigners that come into her store are travelers and yet complains if they make the slightest social faux pas...what do you expect? lol

Due to the huge difference between English and Japanese, sometimes the argument goes into semantics. What usually triggers it is when she says something like "Americans always speak so directly. They are too harsh for Japanese people."
Then I will reply with "Not all Americans are like that, some are."

Then she explains that in Japan, people don't always use words like some or all in certain situations, you are just supposed to assume the context the other person is thinking about...yes we were talking about foreigners, but her comments are generalized even if she were to use proper English to express them. We sometimes argue in Japanese as well when the semantics nonsense starts up.
 
the wise senpai teaching the inexperienced kohai some bed techniques with the third party as practice object.

There was actually a series of AV based on that... Myu's Newcomer Training ( ミュウの新人調教) with Myu doing the sempai role, I remember she did one with Yuko Oota. Very very hot.
 
I have a hunch that the main unspoken contention between Japanese and non-Japanese is the sempai/kohai system. Japanese people worship the sempai/kohai system as being just perfect and superior (to other countries) as it does produce submissive, hard-workers and foreigners are able to more easily see the flaws in this system as being only submissive, hard-workers isn't their only goal in life. Some Japanese resent foreigners for not needing to follow this system (for the most part).
 
Or maybe more softcore the wise senpai teaching the inexperienced kohai some bed techniques with the third party as practice object.

This I have had a couple of times. I have no problems being objectified like that but your SM thing still sounds better. :eek::p
 
The thing about bullying is that it is baked into the cake here, with deference to elders laying the foundation. This isn't to say that every elder is bullying every junior, but In the West and particularly in the US, you have a youth driven culture (f'rex Weinberg's 'Don't trust anyone over 30') which takes most of the juice out of sempai/kouhai relations. This isn't to claim that all Japanese are happy to age (the fact that one generally adds 10 years to any provider's age on a shop webpage), but that is women wanting to be younger. Japanese men don't seem as happy when you guess low on their age, unless they are really old. The culture might be a bit different in Tokyo, but in public sector jobs and a lot of traditional enterprises, you get paid according to your age first, and then experience might be factored in. And if you have a gap in your resume, it really raises questions.

And I agree that there is resentment when foreigners don't have to follow the system and when push comes to shove, the foreigner's lack of time in the system is held up as them not being qualified.
 
I have a hunch that the main unspoken contention between Japanese and non-Japanese is the sempai/kohai system. Japanese people worship the sempai/kohai system as being just perfect and superior (to other countries) as it does produce submissive, hard-workers and foreigners are able to more easily see the flaws in this system as being only submissive, hard-workers isn't their only goal in life. Some Japanese resent foreigners for not needing to follow this system (for the most part).

No they dont "worship" it , many resent it in fact. Its just part of their culture but it's fading in my opinion. In some areas of society and some companies the reverse even happens (bullying old people). I sincerely think you LOVE to find faults with the Japanese , real or imagined, just because of your own resentments (vs wife, job etc). I dont blame you for it, I often do the same in fact. But make a pause sometimes to see if the problem is really with them ... or with you. And believe me you won't change them so if you find it unbearable here ... just leave. Do you have kids to support? That would be the only reason to feel forced to stay , in my opinion.
 
Please do not try to spoil the thread by inserting sensible posts in between. Nobody reads them anyway and they disrupt the flow of complaining.

Ah ah, true. Ok , i go with the flow then... "damn Japanese , why are they so Japanese?!!! It's unbelievable"
Better? :D
 
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Please do not try to spoil the thread by inserting sensible posts in between. Nobody reads them anyway and they disrupt the flow of complaining.
Yea Frenchy WTF? Didn’t your sempai teach you that?
 
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Reading these kinds of posts reminds me of the point in my life when I really started to appreciate my mother-in-law. Somewhere way back at the beginning of marriage to my wife, my wife started a small complaint about me to her mother - which was swiftly shot down by her mother saying "Don't bring that stuff to me - you're the one who decided to marry a foreigner!"
 
No they dont "worship" it , many resent it in fact. Its just part of their culture but it's fading in my opinion. In some areas of society and some companies the reverse even happens (bullying old people). I sincerely think you LOVE to find faults with the Japanese , real or imagined, just because of your own resentments (vs wife, job etc). I dont blame you for it, I often do the same in fact. But make a pause sometimes to see if the problem is really with them ... or with you. And believe me you won't change them so if you find it unbearable here ... just leave. Do you have kids to support? That would be the only reason to feel forced to stay , in my opinion.

You often do the same...so why don't you just leave too?

Yes, I don't have kids but I need to make sure my wife isn't just screwed for life after I divorce her. Even if we divorce, I still care about her and want to make sure she will be alright a year or so after a divorce before possibly moving to another country.

I am aware that young people bully elders but I think that is more of a response to literally centuries of elders shitting on the youth at every turn. I also believe that the sempai/kohai culture is fading along with a lot of other aspects of Japanese culture. I do know some Japanese people that really hate sempai/kohai culture but they are either the minority or they are just the minority that openly share their opinions about it with foreigners lol.
 
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You often do the same...so why don't you just leave too?.
Because then I usually cool down and find out that I'm wrong, or at least exaggerating the annoyance, and even if it's a real one I will certainly not change Japanese people , and I'm in their country so to some extent I need to adjust . Besides, I also notice that the advantages of living here far outweigh the inconveniences, and that it's not necessarily better elsewhere anyway.
 
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