what do you feel with your SB/SD?

[kitsune]

Some time ago (seems long ago now), I started a thread about connectedness, and about how much better the escort interaction is if there is a real connection. There was some debate about how real it actually is, but if I’m the one whose experience is better for the feeling, then I guess it only matters if it’s real to me (from my perspective). But, getting to the point, there was at least one suggestion (from Ww, if I recall), that the sugar bowl might be a better place for such experiences. And that got me to thinking.

For some time after that, I felt less and less satisfied with meeting random escorts in whatever city I happened to be in, and I started thinking seriously about trying to find a SB. I’m married, not looking for a girlfriend, just looking for good connected sex without complications. So, I was thinking about checking out SA (again, based on Ww’s advice here) when I met someone who was kind of freelancing, and who seemed like she might be a good SB fit.

(edited initial post, as I think I way over-shared)

Long story short, I had a not so good SB-like arrangement that, after several multi-day liaisons together, led to significant feelings of attachment on my part. I won't see her again.

So, I’m back to seeing escorts, and really, it’s fine. I still think connectedness really helps, and I definitely have a few favorites that I see whenever I can, but without any emotional attachment. So, this is a really long-winded intro to what I really want to ask, which is, how do those of you who sugar date deal with attachment? The lines seem really blurry to me. I don’t think I’m immature, or emotionally needy, but I have to ask - are you all able to stay detached and unemotional? Or is there some managed emotional exchange between SB and SD? Or am I the odd man out?

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Good post!

I'm no expert but for me the attachement is actually a bonus, unless it gets too clingy .

I'm not sure how your marriage is going, but for me, I really missed the feeling that someone was genuinely happy to see me.

 

[Frenchy]

Good post (and sorry , I had read the previous , unedited version too - but no clue who you are and not interested to know anyway )

I'm already "attached" to mine , so I guess I screwed up already !
We have a great time together , she is not only beautiful and sexy but smart, has a good sense for the arts and fashion , very empathetic and cuddly , kinky beyond belief (went to Department H and Bliss Out together and we hope to discover much much more) , kind, and wonderful in bed . Also has a great sense of humour which quite frankly is rather rare among ladies of her caliber. Not to mention that , on a per hour basis , it's actually much less costly , for much more satisfaction and connectedness , than the 1 or 2 hours session I could have with an escort .

Besides I don't get all the dramas, neediness, expectations , insecurities and mind games that are often spoiling "normal" relationships. We both know there is no commitment to be given nor received apart from what we explicitly agreed. She can see whomever she wants when we are not together and so do I . She is not pestering me if I didn't answer her messages soon enough, doesn't ask me to be her servant and ATM (apart from what I agreed to pay), and I don't expect her to be at my beck and call either.

In short so far so good, yes I have feelings for her but not emotionally dependent in any way.

 

[Wwanderer]

Some time ago (seems long ago now), I started a thread about connectedness, and about how much better the escort interaction is if there is a real connection.

A classic and legendary thread it indeed was! I recall it well and as one of the more interesting TAG threads in which I ever participated. I may dig up the link and put it in this thread so that people can go back and read it if they are so inclined.

-Ww

 

[kitsune]

Just wanted to be clear that I don't in any way blame Ww for his great advice here. On the contrary, I really appreciate it.

 

[Wwanderer]

So, this is a really long-winded intro to what I really want to ask, which is, how do those of you who sugar date deal with attachment? The lines seem really blurry to me. I don’t think I’m immature, or emotionally needy, but I have to ask - are you all able to stay detached and unemotional? Or is there some managed emotional exchange between SB and SD?

Not a good post, a great one!

Different folks, SDs and SBs, are looking for a huge range of different things and types of arrangements in the sugar world, so I think the answers to the the OP's questions are similarly widely varied, and I can only give my own perspective.

First of all, I am with @Rusty Trombone in this respect:

I'm no expert but for me the attachement is actually a bonus

I most certainly do not try to maintain unemotional detachment in the sugar bowl; the opposite is closer to the truth. So the OP's question about "managed emotional exchange" is the relevant one for me, although "managed" already sounds too detached and controlled/calculated for my tastes. To me it seems more a question of how to manage the consequences of the emotional "exchange"/attachment that often emerges from a good sugar connection.

Anyway, here are some approaches/practices that have been helpful for me:

- It is too clichéd for words to say that communication is important in relationships, but for unconventional relationships in which it is very easy for the two people to end up not just on different pages but in whole different books, it is absolutely critical imo and experience. You need to be explicit/direct, though of course in a kind and sensitive way, as well as extremely honest...no hinting! Don't think for a moment that your sugar partner can guess how you feel or can know how you think he/she feels without being told.

- Do NOT try to force your sugar relationships into any of the "normal" scripts or categories which carry with them a load of expectations and patterns drawn from both culture and inidividual experiences. Do NOT think of it in those terms or evaluate it against those standards. Also do NOT try to make it conform to your incoming expectations or goals for a sugar arrangement or be similar to sugar arrangements you have had previously. Instead, work with your sugar partner to create a connection that is unique to the two of you and works for and pleases you both.

- Be involved in multiple sugar arrangements at any one time. If you have only a single one, it is far more likely to "take over your life" and cause chaos than if your sugary attention and feelings are spread among multiple partners. While my previous two points are reasonably general imo, this one works for me but may not be good advice for some or most other people. I've been polyamorous by nature for as long as I can recall, and my feelings for one woman simply do not affect my feelings for another (as weird as that may be).

- From the very beginning try to enjoy your sugar pleasures "in the moment" ONLY and avoid thinking and planning for the long term. Try to have a "Don't cry because its over; smile because it happened" attitude from the start, not just after it is over.

- Perhaps most importantly, don't expect sugaring in this style, with real feelins and connections, to be easy or free of emotional pain. Important relationships of any sort at all (and life in general for that matter) are simply not like that. The joys can and should outweigh the costs, but costs there will be.

-Ww

 

[hkAlone]

Not a good post, a great one!

Different folks, SDs and SBs, are looking for a huge range of different things and types of arrangements in the sugar world, so I think the answers to the the OP's questions are similarly widely varied, and I can only give my own perspective.

First of all, I am with @Rusty Trombone in this respect:



I most certainly do not try to maintain unemotional detachment in the sugar bowl; the opposite is closer to the truth. So the OP's question about "managed emotional exchange" is the relevant one for me, although "managed" already sounds too detached and controlled/calculated for my tastes. To me it seems more a question of how to manage the consequences of the emotional "exchange"/attachment that often emerges from a good sugar connection.

Anyway, here are some approaches/practices that have been helpful for me:

- It is too clichéd for words to say that communication is important in relationships, but for unconventional relationships in which it is very easy for the two people to end up not just on different pages but in whole different books, it is absolutely critical imo and experience. You need to be explicit/direct, though of course in a kind and sensitive way, as well as extremely honest...no hinting! Don't think for a moment that your sugar partner can guess how you feel or can know how you think he/she feels without being told.

- Do NOT try to force your sugar relationships into any of the "normal" scripts or categories which carry with them a load of expectations and patterns drawn from both culture and inidividual experiences. Do NOT think of it in those terms or evaluate it against those standards. Also do NOT try to make it conform to your incoming expectations or goals for a sugar arrangement or be similar to sugar arrangements you have had previously. Instead, work with your sugar partner to create a connection that is unique to the two of you and works for and pleases you both.

- Be involved in multiple sugar arrangements at any one time. If you have only a single one, it is far more likely to "take over your life" and cause chaos than if your sugary attention and feelings are spread among multiple partners. While my previous two points are reasonably general imo, this one works for me but may not be good advice for some or most other people. I've been polyamorous by nature for as long as I can recall, and my feelings for one woman simply do not affect my feelings for another (as weird as that may be).

- From the very beginning try to enjoy your sugar pleasures "in the moment" ONLY and avoid thinking and planning for the long term. Try to have a "Don't cry because its over; smile because it happened" attitude from the start, not just after it is over.

- Perhaps most importantly, don't expect sugaring in this style, with real feelins and connections, to be easy or free of emotional pain. Important relationships of any sort at all (and life in general for that matter) are simply not like that. The joys can and should outweigh the costs, but costs there will be.

-Ww

Attachment and feelings are bonus.
Life is short.
Carpe Diem.

 

[AMcguyver]

A classic and legendary thread it indeed was! I recall it well and as one of the more interesting TAG threads in which I ever participated. I may dig up the link and put it in this thread so that people can go back and read it if they are so inclined.

-Ww

I would be really interested to read that thread since I think I missed it the first time around.

 

[Wwanderer]

I would be really interested to read that thread since I think I missed it the first time around.

Here it is:

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads...hip-and-the-art-of-the-amorous-escortee.6565/

Note that it is FOUR YEARS OLD and that you should think long and hard before posting to it and thus making a deep necro-bump.

Skimming through it reminded me of some of the now gone but once *very* active participants in TAG discussion threads, e.g., Serenity Now, Solong, TheDutchElm, Zaphod222.

Nostalgia trip...

-Ww

 

[User#8628]

frenchy: "SA is the BEST! Such cheap deals, yeaaah"

Kitsune: "ww adviced me to try sugar dating and i started to use SA, i had a blast but got burned a little"

Frenchy: "and yet another BAD advice from ww!!!"

 

[User#8628]

I agree with everyone that sugering should basically be about the emotional connection. You just have to make it clear that you can not leave your family for her and that you cant always be there for her first priority. And of course the real trouble is telling yourself not to drop everything for her, but in my experience that is the short time infatuation of falling in love, when you have a longer term relationship and it has been made clear where both people stand, its likely not going to change anymore.

 

[Frenchy]

frenchy: "SA is the BEST! Such cheap deals, yeaaah"

Kitsune: "ww adviced me to try sugar dating and i started to use SA, i had a blast but got burned a little"

Frenchy: "and yet another BAD advice from ww!!!"

Hmmmm , i missed something here, where did I write that Ww's advice to use SA was a bad advice?

 

[Frenchy]

Not a good post, a great one!

Different folks, SDs and SBs, are looking for a huge range of different things and types of arrangements in the sugar world, so I think the answers to the the OP's questions are similarly widely varied, and I can only give my own perspective.

First of all, I am with @Rusty Trombone in this respect:



I most certainly do not try to maintain unemotional detachment in the sugar bowl; the opposite is closer to the truth. So the OP's question about "managed emotional exchange" is the relevant one for me, although "managed" already sounds too detached and controlled/calculated for my tastes. To me it seems more a question of how to manage the consequences of the emotional "exchange"/attachment that often emerges from a good sugar connection.

Anyway, here are some approaches/practices that have been helpful for me:

- It is too clichéd for words to say that communication is important in relationships, but for unconventional relationships in which it is very easy for the two people to end up not just on different pages but in whole different books, it is absolutely critical imo and experience. You need to be explicit/direct, though of course in a kind and sensitive way, as well as extremely honest...no hinting! Don't think for a moment that your sugar partner can guess how you feel or can know how you think he/she feels without being told.

- Do NOT try to force your sugar relationships into any of the "normal" scripts or categories which carry with them a load of expectations and patterns drawn from both culture and inidividual experiences. Do NOT think of it in those terms or evaluate it against those standards. Also do NOT try to make it conform to your incoming expectations or goals for a sugar arrangement or be similar to sugar arrangements you have had previously. Instead, work with your sugar partner to create a connection that is unique to the two of you and works for and pleases you both.

- Be involved in multiple sugar arrangements at any one time. If you have only a single one, it is far more likely to "take over your life" and cause chaos than if your sugary attention and feelings are spread among multiple partners. While my previous two points are reasonably general imo, this one works for me but may not be good advice for some or most other people. I've been polyamorous by nature for as long as I can recall, and my feelings for one woman simply do not affect my feelings for another (as weird as that may be).

- From the very beginning try to enjoy your sugar pleasures "in the moment" ONLY and avoid thinking and planning for the long term. Try to have a "Don't cry because its over; smile because it happened" attitude from the start, not just after it is over.

- Perhaps most importantly, don't expect sugaring in this style, with real feelins and connections, to be easy or free of emotional pain. Important relationships of any sort at all (and life in general for that matter) are simply not like that. The joys can and should outweigh the costs, but costs there will be.

-Ww

Great advices! Thanks!

 

[User#18046]

A late reply, but I’ve been without internet— and soon will be again. And this thread captures my interest because I over-analyze everything since being “on the spectrum” means, for me, never being sure I’m behaving properly.

I started up with an SB shortly before my travels began this spring, at the end of my crazy April P4P-a-looza, and have had the chance to do a couple of overnights and a day date with her, and at first it did feel awkward knowing she was seeing other guys even though intellectually I couldn’t justify the feeling. One thing that helped was, when we first discussed it, we agreed to be brutally frank regarding the “contract.” Better, we agreed, to manage expectations — both financial and emotional— up front than have complications and hurt feelings down the road. So we talked about the sugar, about the polygamy, about gifts and how they did not in any way stand in for the sugar, and emotions and how they did not affect the sugar, either. I mean, you can’t get more open than that. “We’re going to like each other but this is a business transaction above all.” Go ahead and try to misunderstand that, if you think you can, eh? And there were expectations stated on my side, too, about dates and their frequency and the components thereof, so don’t think it was some bitchy, one-sided thing. On the contrary, we both agreed to all the terms and I feel like that has cleared the way for there to be no need to have any more uncomfortable conversations about “The Deal.”

That said, the first date, an overnight, went so well for me that there was that moment I thought I might get too attached, because as this was my first SB (pretty much... I have sort of an unspoken one in Guam that’s almost too complicated to go into), I was finding myself really into this new opportunity to be more involved than just setting up a cold “appointment” with a lady. I ran around beforehand planning all the details, checking out the hotel, the restaurant, the karaoke room, making sure it would all be perfect, which I stopped doing with my wife because she never finds anything “perfect” or even OK. We went out, we sang, ate, drank, watched a movie in the room... And then awhile later, something just clicked and I was able to compartmentalize it and the idea of losing perspective and getting attached stopped being a problem. It feels now like an open relationship, which was something I’d always been curious about. I love seeing her when I can, we email when we’re apart and I get her goofy stuff when I’m traveling which she accepts gracefully instead of telling me the present sucks and to stop, even when I put her on a train home with two arm loads of crap that reminded me of her. We’ve gone to the beach, to temples, to cute little obscure restaurants, and we’ve watched movies that one or the other of us particularly wanted the other to see. There’s always sex — that was part of the contract — but I’m not counting pops and she’s not watching the clock. And I’m not thinking about her other encounters while I’m with her, unless we’re discussing “the profession” as a topic. Far from being jealous, I sometimes find it fascinating talking about her other encounters (with zero private details about the guys, as she maintains professionalism in that respect) and not in a sexual way... I mean, it’s not a turn-on to me like ‘oh baby, tell me how he did it to you;’ it’s just one of the few conversations that I can have with her and only her, an insider’s discussion of sex work, from a sociological and philosophical standpoint as well as getting insights from her perspective.

If she doesn’t also at least like me as a person, she does a good job pretending — and she’s never been one to really go over the top with the pretending even when we had non-SB P4P encounters before the arrangement. She’s always been pretty WYSIWYG, so there are not these moments where I question her sincerity since she’s never laying it on thick.

So, of course, these things are different for everyone and I did have a moment where I thought I might get attached and where I therefore felt uncomfortable — but that was my caveman instinct trying to rise to the fore. I just had to give it a moment’s thought and say to my brain, “Yo, she’s an escort, Sting; she’s gonna put on the red light so get good with it or get gone.” And as I said, now it makes the relationship kind of more interesting, though TBH that topic has kind of played out and we’re as likely to talk about opening a cafe where the waiters serve cinnamon rolls in bear costumes, or what are the attributes of a really great refrigerator magnet. (And they are legion, these attributes.)

 

[vargas]

My best sugar experiences have been where we genuinely liked each other and were compatible in and out of bed. Haven’t had a case where things got too close, but I’ve turned down candidates for being way too transactional. For example some girls seemed to genuinely enjoy just having dinner occasionally, when time was limited or it was that time of the month, and didn’t expect the same amount as when we spent a few hours in bed. Others wanted a monthly allowance and then suddenly were traveling for a week here and there. Needless to say I now avoid frequent travelers like the plague and have a strong preference for women with real jobs, which also demonstrates that they aren’t total losers, or with severe mental problems.

I don’t think I could get too attached to a sugar babe though, there’s really no way I could consider any sort of serious relationship with someone who’s done even the smallest amount of amateur sex work. I worked my ass off to put myself through university and have spent years of my life developing my skills and keeping them up to date and most of that wasn’t nearly as enjoyable as having sex. Now I know sex work isn’t all fun and games, but I don’t think it requires that much dedication and effort. I wouldn’t have a serious relationship with someone who spent their 20s working at McDonald’s either.

 

[User#18046]

@vargas Some interesting points, and they seem to jibe with what my best friend has experienced actively seeking an SB on SA.com back in the U.S. After scores of meetups -- which he made clear he would not pay for initial coffee meetings ("Do employers pay for job interviews?") -- his biggest complaint was the amateurs who thought they could go pro but, in his opinion, weren't ready. Girls he said had no real idea what they wanted or how to ask for it, and/or girls who were hot enough for guys in high school and college to line up to do them for free, but now they were trying to charge high end prices, like the high school athlete who thinks he can play in the big leagues but really has no shot. My friend was like, "Yeah, I'd go home with her from a bar, but I wouldn't pay her $500 an hour on her best day." Far fewer but just as disappointing were the ones who were, as you say, too transactional, almost with a menu that made the whole thing feel very inorganic.

There were two exceptions, a recent college grad doing this as a side income that he really meshed well with, and a lady who after their third paid date (at only $200 per overnight) turned up at his house driving her Bentley -- turned out she was rich as hell and was dating through SA.com simply to avoid gold-digging and cheapskate guys. She eventually bailed the lifestyle after only a few months, but he still sees the college grad occasionally on a per-date charge basis. She's not a swimsuit model, she's what he calls "librarian hot" but they really get on well as she's both fit and intelligent and has goals.

 

[MikeH]

("Do employers pay for job interviews?")

That actually depends on how much they want to interview you, so it is not that uncommon. I have never been paid a salary to have an interview but I have been offered intercontinental plane tickets, hotel nights and daily allowances.

So in that context I would think the SB candidate is not wrong to ask for compensation for the first date either. And why would you call it a date if it was just an interview?

 

[TokyoML]

I have been offered intercontinental plane tickets, hotel nights and daily allowances.

Do they still do that in 2017? That was probably in the 80s, right?
Though they still do that for Super Saturday interviews (new graduates) but not so much for mid-career jobs.

 

[MikeH]

Do they still do that in 2017? That was probably in the 80s, right?
Though they still do that for Super Saturday interviews (new graduates) but not so much for mid-career jobs.

Don't really know if it's a thing now; last time I was in that kind of position was maybe ten years ago. If you were in that kind of position in 80s you would not have taken the flight but just expect the offer immediately.

I would guess that most potential SBs would fall into the new graduate box though.

 

[jhingy567]

Don't really know if it's a thing now; last time I was in that kind of position was maybe ten years ago. If you were in that kind of position in 80s you would not taken the flight but just expect the offer immediately.

I would guess that most potential SBs would fall into the new graduate box though.

Can speak from personal experience. For some big companies/organisations it's still definitely a thing. And not only for hotshots they've head-hunted, but actually fresh university graduates who haven't got any experience.

If you live out of town, they'll fly you in and put you up in a decent hotel (nothing lavish).

These obviously aren't the cheapskate orgs that have unpaid interns or 'trials' (illegal anyway)

 

[Lukes]

Some interesting topics/posts in here. Back when I read it the first time, I didn't have anything to contribute. But I recently decided to try my hand at sugar dating to see what it would be like. Maybe I'll post about that later.

I haven't been at it for very long but with one of the SBs I've been with, I could see myself possibly becoming attached if things progressed further. I feel a bit like I used to when I was a younger man and wasn't totally jaded over about romance yet. Got to experience some things I haven't felt in a long time. Being nervous before a date, the electric feeling when she takes your hand for the first time, the joy of conversation that isn't just listening to constant bitching (a nice change from my marriage). Just being able to enjoy her company is a good feeling but at the same time it doesn't last that long. I guess it's a mixture of happiness mixed with disbelief mixed with "WTF am I doing here?!"

 

[vargas]

There were two exceptions, a recent college grad doing this as a side income that he really meshed well with, and a lady who after their third paid date (at only $200 per overnight) turned up at his house driving her Bentley -- turned out she was rich as hell and was dating through SA.com simply to avoid gold-digging and cheapskate guys. She eventually bailed the lifestyle after only a few months, but he still sees the college grad occasionally on a per-date charge basis. She's not a swimsuit model, she's what he calls "librarian hot" but they really get on well as she's both fit and intelligent and has goals.

Holy crap the Bentley lady is a great story haha, I’d sure go for that

Yeah it’s rare but there’s some girls doing sugar with their shit together and a good attitude. Super rare but those are the ones I’m happy to help out in exchange for their company.

 

[User#8628]

My best sugar experiences have been where we genuinely liked each other and were compatible in and out of bed. Haven’t had a case where things got too close, but I’ve turned down candidates for being way too transactional. For example some girls seemed to genuinely enjoy just having dinner occasionally, when time was limited or it was that time of the month, and didn’t expect the same amount as when we spent a few hours in bed. Others wanted a monthly allowance and then suddenly were traveling for a week here and there. Needless to say I now avoid frequent travelers like the plague and have a strong preference for women with real jobs, which also demonstrates that they aren’t total losers, or with severe mental problems.

I don’t think I could get too attached to a sugar babe though, there’s really no way I could consider any sort of serious relationship with someone who’s done even the smallest amount of amateur sex work. I worked my ass off to put myself through university and have spent years of my life developing my skills and keeping them up to date and most of that wasn’t nearly as enjoyable as having sex. Now I know sex work isn’t all fun and games, but I don’t think it requires that much dedication and effort. I wouldn’t have a serious relationship with someone who spent their 20s working at McDonald’s either.

Cute.
Try to do it for a day. I know some girls who were crying on their first day. Its not for everyone and it definitely takes dedication.
Plus there is working hard and working smart, if a girl does sex work full time and saves a lot of money which wouldn't be able with some "real job" and she invests it well, she can become top. Plus some girls support their top level university studies that are so expensive that a regular job wouldn't cover this way.

Its your choice who you date though, i have no comment on that, but i wish people would try the job one day before calling it easy.

 

[vargas]

Cute.
Try to do it for a day. I know some girls who were crying on their first day. Its not for everyone and it definitely takes dedication.
Plus there is working hard and working smart, if a girl does sex work full time and saves a lot of money which wouldn't be able with some "real job" and she invests it well, she can become top. Plus some girls support their top level university studies that are so expensive that a regular job wouldn't cover this way.

Oh I’d be the first to admit I couldn’t do it. Don’t mean to diminish any of the effort you or they have put into their work either, or to criticize people’s choices. Takes all sorts to make the world go round, I’m just speaking of my personal preferences.

 

[Frenchy]

Oh I’d be the first to admit I couldn’t do it. Don’t mean to diminish any of the effort you or they have put into their work either, or to criticize people’s choices. Takes all sorts to make the world go round, I’m just speaking of my personal preferences.

I couldnt do it either (well I tried but it was just providing a massage - besides I just don't have the physique to do it )
However there are degrees of difficulty/hardship ... i would certainly pity a poor girl in a third world country forced into sex work having to endure rough men all day long to barely survive.

Less so an escort in Tokyo, charging more than JPY 30k an hour or so to please rich guys in nice hotels, most of which I'm sure behave like gentlemen. Of course there must be the occasional douchebag or psycho, and that's certainly unpleasant to deal with. but I suppose that on average the rewards are worth the risks otherwise those ladies could certainly do something else.