What Do You Think Of Donald Trump?

[roots reggae]

Cooperation is below policy level but does depend on staffing at appropriate agencies. It gets complicated by levels of opsec between allies and how a number of European states have poor info sharing between domestic agencies.

For France the concerns are around over extended domestic army deployment and questionable commitment of Macron towards the defense budget. The GIGN are awesome but potentially understaffed.

Maybe y'all could just invade Belgistan for a little while and clean up the neighborhood?

Once again TheScientist has led me towards Enlightenment:



We cannot look at the situation in Europe without looking at the historical forces in play, ones that go back back around 600 years, or so, and were in full bloom at the turn of the 19th Century with the European Colonization of Africa.

***Europeans please forgive and correct me if I make erroneous assumptions.

And... make no mistake, in trying to understand the present situation, I am absolutely, in no way, sympathizing with, nor justifying the actions of the post-colonial peoples. Gandhi and Martin Luther King dominate my political action theory, however, I do admit to a deep respect for Malcolm X.

 

[TheScientist]

Maybe. The chance of it being marginally more successful than the U.S cleaning up Irak or Afghanistan is to be considered

The real problem areas of Belgistan are small, not big places with lots of tribal wars. Y'all could probably clean it up in a week or so.

 

[Frenchy]

The real problem areas of Belgistan are small, not big places with lots of tribal wars. Y'all could probably clean it up in a week or so.

Walloons vs Flemish is some kind of tribal tussle (not war but still) we'd rather avoid being involved with! The Dutch would declare war on us, too risky.

 

[TheScientist]

Once again TheScientist has led me towards Enlightenment:

Please excuse my hyperbole. The fact is that lots of the Islamist terror problems in France are domestic but lots also originate or depend on a small area of Belgium.

Unfortunately Belgium has a very weak police force and frankly a crappy domestic security situation.

ones that go back back around 600 years, or so

I have too much respect for you to understand this as if you attribute Islamist violence to colonialism. Those soviet inspired schools of thought conveniently ignore large amounts of history.

Gandhi and Martin Luther King dominate my political action theory, however, I do admit to a deep respect for Malcolm X.

Interesting figures all but also all frequently misunderstood and quoted out of context.

 

[TheScientist]

The Dutch would declare war on us, too risky.

Easy to avoid. They honestly don't have much in the way of air land or sea forces in comparison. They also don't want to actually have to take full responsibility for the Walloons either. Promise them some trade deal and they'll be all smiles.

 

[Frenchy]

Easy to avoid. They honestly don't have much in the way of air land or sea forces in comparison. They also don't want to actually have to take full responsibility for the Walloons either. Promise them some trade deal and they'll be all smiles.

... the Flemish you mean?
Oh well anyway, there are stealthier ways to handle Belgistan than invading it... Obama didn't invade Pakistan to get rid of Bin Laden!
This is what I don't understand with guys like Bush, Trump etc. They always want to use bulldozers to get rid of mosquitoes (Sorry, originally some kind of French expression which probably doesn't translate well in English but you get the picture)

 

[TheScientist]

... the Flemish you mean?

My bad. Thanks.

Obama didn't invade Pakistan to get rid of Bin Laden!

Right but you don't use DEVGRU to take out whole cities.

Trump etc. They always want to use bulldozers to get rid of mosquitoes

Post Napoleon some French general got real famous there for a strategy book where he basically ripped off von Clausewitz. To paraphrase from the original "the best strategy in all situations is to be very strong from the start."

It's never one mosquito, you have to drain the swamp.

 

[Frenchy]

My bad. Thanks.



Right but you don't use DEVGRU to take out whole cities.



Post Napoleon some French general got real famous there for a strategy book where he basically ripped off von Clausewitz. To paraphrase from the original "the best strategy in all situations is to be very strong from the start."

It's never one mosquito, you have to drain the swamp.

Unfortunately I think you assimilate fighting a terrorist nebulae with fighting a country. It doesn't work the same way. De Gaulle and Clausewitz are not that useful in this context. The US won against "Saddam Hussein's Irak", granted. But sadly they didn't win "In Irak".

 

[TheScientist]

Unfortunately I think you assimilate fighting a terrorist nebulae with fighting a country.

Definitely not. France doesn't have counter insurgence problem. And while Clausewitz devoted only one small chapter to that sort of thing, the situation regarding Belgium is much more related to a conventional warfare problem of striking the enemy's refuge and supply points.

 

[Frenchy]

Definitely not. France doesn't have counter insurgence problem. And while Clausewitz devoted only one small chapter to that sort of thing, the situation regarding Belgium is much more related to a conventional warfare problem of striking the enemy's refuge and supply points.

Well, we could probably do that without invading Belgium with tanks and planes! (Assuming the Belgian police is so ineffective they can't or don't want to do it themselves).

 

[TheScientist]

Well, we could probably do that without invading Belgium with tanks and planes!

Better to start with armor or overflight and then use ground troops for cleanup.

Assuming the Belgian police is so ineffective they can't or don't want to do it themselves

Thats already obvious. If they were effective, this conversation would have been a lot shorter!

 

[roots reggae]

Please excuse my hyperbole. The fact is that lots of the Islamist terror problems in France are domestic but lots also originate or depend on a small area of Belgium.

I have too much respect for you to understand this as if you attribute Islamist violence to colonialism. Those soviet inspired schools of thought conveniently ignore large amounts of history.

Interesting figures all but also all frequently misunderstood and quoted out of context.

No, I really was not that aware of the Muslim community in Belgium and was being sincere. Now that I think of it, I've seen programs on National Geographic or CNN dealing with the subject, however I was not acquainted with the designation.

No, attributing the Islamic violence to colonialism would be mistakenly simplistic, although I believe it is a strong factor.

Colonialism both creates a fertile ground for post-colonial antagonism, and at the same time, provides an influx of disenfranchised former subjects to the former Colonial power that would never otherwise populate Europe.

I do not subscribe to Soviet inspired schools of thought. I am closer to the philosophy of Ayn Rand than communist propagandists.

No quotes from Gandhi, King, and Malcolm X. Just used them to make the point that I believe that non-violent resistence is preferable to the use of force-with some exceptions.

Terrorists and their supporters must be resisted the full force-with whatever means necessary.

Nazis, Fascists, White Supremacists, violent racists, have no place in society. To me they are in the same category as rapists, child molesters, and murders and should be regarded as such.

And thank you for your respect-it's mutual!

 

[TheScientist]

No, attributing the Islamic violence to colonialism would be mistakenly simplistic, although I believe it is a strong factor.

If you ever feel like perhaps your view of human nature is just too sunny and pleasant, start reading the history of Islamic expansionism. Look at the general patterns of history of the wars of conquest that turned North Africa into Arab lands and the eastward expansion as well. This is to say nothing of conquest of Spain and the expansion of the Ottoman Caliphate into Europe. Made the Crusaders look like complete amateurs. In terms of imperial expansionism even the Romans almost take a back seat.

The European colonial period in North Africa and the Middle East was quite brief and far less bloody. Its only with Europe having expended all its power tearing out each other's throats that they no longer really had the power or will to maintain these colonies. Which leads to the next point...

Colonialism both creates a fertile ground for post-colonial antagonism

The wars of liberation of former colonies yes, but really no further. The time period since Europe shot its load has just been a return to previous cycles of strongman > chaos > strongman > chaos in North Africa & the Middle East following the historic pattern.

and at the same time, provides an influx of disenfranchised former subjects to the former Colonial power that would never otherwise populate Europe.

Oddly enough most of the Arabs & other living in Europe are not from former colonies. Germany has a huge Turkish population yet never colonized Turkey. Why? Jobs. The North Africans in France came for jobs (or with the case of the North African Jews because they were no longer safe in North Africa). In all other cases its the 20th century version of White Man's Burden on the part of Europe.

No quotes from Gandhi, King, and Malcolm X. Just used them to make the point that I believe that non-violent resistence is preferable to the use of force-with some exceptions.

Non violent resistance worked for Gandhi only because the British were a spent force and couldn't maintain Empire anymore. MLK due to the unique set of circumstances at the time and place and the inability on the part of those who opposed him to start what would amount to a domestic war.

Nazis, Fascists, White Supremacists, violent racists, have no place in society. To me they are in the same category as rapists, child molesters, and murders and should be regarded as such.

I'm a strong First Amendment supporter (or here in Japan, Article 21). The ACLU was right to defend the rights of the Illinois Nazi Party to march peacefully. You can't legislate away ideas, you can't beat them out of people and jailing people for ideas is very very wrong. Speech is speech and I've had death threats for who I am right to my face. As long as its just words and no fists or bullets, I'll defend those people's right to speak.

 

[roots reggae]

If you ever feel like perhaps your view of human nature is just too sunny and pleasant, start reading the history of Islamic expansionism. Look at the general patterns of history of the wars of conquest that turned North Africa into Arab lands and the eastward expansion as well. This is to say nothing of conquest of Spain and the expansion of the Ottoman Caliphate into Europe. Made the Crusaders look like complete amateurs. In terms of imperial expansionism even the Romans almost take a back seat.

The European colonial period in North Africa and the Middle East was quite brief and far less bloody. Its only with Europe having expended all its power tearing out each other's throats that they no longer really had the power or will to maintain these colonies. Which leads to the next point...



The wars of liberation of former colonies yes, but really no further. The time period since Europe shot its load has just been a return to previous cycles of strongman > chaos > strongman > chaos in North Africa & the Middle East following the historic pattern.



Oddly enough most of the Arabs & other living in Europe are not from former colonies. Germany has a huge Turkish population yet never colonized Turkey. Why? Jobs. The North Africans in France came for jobs (or with the case of the North African Jews because they were no longer safe in North Africa). In all other cases its the 20th century version of White Man's Burden on the part of Europe.



Non violent resistance worked for Gandhi only because the British were a spent force and couldn't maintain Empire anymore. MLK due to the unique set of circumstances at the time and place and the inability on the part of those who opposed him to start what would amount to a domestic war.



I'm a strong First Amendment supporter (or here in Japan, Article 21). The ACLU was right to defend the rights of the Illinois Nazi Party to march peacefully. You can't legislate away ideas, you can't beat them out of people and jailing people for ideas is very very wrong. Speech is speech and I've had death threats for who I am right to my face. As long as its just words and no fists or bullets, I'll defend those people's right to speak.

While I disagree with some of your points, most are completely valid. It is not a simple matter.

The American Civil Liberties Union, taking a tougher stance on armed protests, will no longer defend hate groups seeking to march with firearms, the group’s executive director said.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/aclu-c...te-groups-protesting-with-firearms-1503010167

As you alluded, it takes an entire book to present one perspective.

I, too, am a staunch supporter of the First Amendment, especially with views that differ from mine. Yet, there are rare limitations on that right-the well-known falsely shouting fire in a crowded building precedent.

However, history has taught us to recognize Evil and the consequences of allowing such groups to increase power.

***Warning*** I'm sorry, my conservative side has taken control.

Let me put it another way, an analogy, perhaps.

What happens to a person that ignores the early signs of a cancer that can be treated if detected early? What happens when that person still refuses to take steps to fight the cancer?

In the case of cancer, First Amendment rights are forfeited.

Any group that advocates and practices violence as a means to subjugate or eliminate a race or religious group is a cancer on the human race.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[TheScientist]

I'm sorry, my conservative side has taken control.

These days its mostly kids on the Left in the US who want to limit free speech

Again, I've had the death threats to my face, been spat on and chased down a street by a crazy leftist woman screaming "baby killer" at me just for being a Jew and I'll still defend bad speech.

 

[RightOn6975]

These days its mostly kids on the Left in the US who want to limit free speech

Again, I've had the death threats to my face, been spat on and chased down a street by a crazy leftist woman screaming "baby killer" at me just for being a Jew and I'll still defend bad speech.

Part of me wants to say agree with you and the other part wants to disagree with you.

 

[roots reggae]

These days its mostly kids on the Left in the US who want to limit free speech

Again, I've had the death threats to my face, been spat on and chased down a street by a crazy leftist woman screaming "baby killer" at me just for being a Jew and I'll still defend bad speech.

I really do not want to get into a back and forth with you because it's not that big a deal with me, so this will be my last post on the subject. Please feel free to respond-like, consider this the back and you can take the forth.

Left or Right, doesn't matter...

Terroristic Threats do not fall under the protections of The First Amendment's Free Speech provisions.

A terroristic threat is a crime generally involving a threat to commit violence communicated with the intent to terrorize another, to cause evacuation of a building, or to cause serious public inconvenience, in reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience. It may mean an offense against property or involving danger to another person that may include but is not limited to recklessly endangering another person, harassment, stalking, ethnic intimidation, and criminal mischief.


https://definitions.uslegal.com/t/terroristic-threat/

 

[DocMcStuffins]

I certainly sympathize with the circumstances above. But even the aclu has a limit -
http://thehill.com/homenews/347053-...pporting-hate-groups-protesting-with-firearms

In other words, imo, free speech and guns don't mix.

 

[Frenchy]

Part of me wants to say agree with you and the other part wants to disagree with you.

Yes, I have the same feeling too.
In France we have strong laws against hate speech , nazi glorification etc (for instance denying the existence of the holocaust is a crime). But sometimes I'm not so sure it's the right way to treat the problem. Also the media are partly culprit : they put a way too excessive flashlight on fringe elements who'd better be ignored or just derided.

 

[roots reggae]

Yes, I have the same feeling too.
In France we have strong laws against hate speech , nazi glorification etc (for instance denying the existence of the holocaust is a crime). But sometimes I'm not so sure it's the right way to treat the problem. Also the media are partly culprit : they put a way too excessive flashlight on fringe elements who'd better be ignored or just derided.

I tend to agree with you on a theoretical level in regards to your qualms.

On the other hand, so many people are basically wired to be followers. In the US of A, those folks have been allowed to follow any belief they choose-even to the point of hate and murder.

It's just possible, maybe, perhaps, that if the US of A had similar laws, rather similar attitudes, possibly both, then, just maybe, a few lives would be saved-including the misguided.

 

[Frenchy]

I tend to agree with you on a theoretical level in regards to your qualms.

On the other hand, so many people are basically wired to be followers. In the US of A, those folks have been allowed to follow any belief they choose-even to the point of hate and murder.

It's just possible, maybe, perhaps, that if the US of A had similar laws, rather similar attitudes, possibly both, then, just maybe, a few lives would be saved-including the misguided.

Well in France (and most western countries I know) if you carry a gun in a demonstration you would be arrested , full stop. We accept free speech but there are some limits indeed.
Unfortunately there are other ways to be violent (stones, fists, clubs etc) but guns ownership is very limited, like in Japan.

 

[MikeH]

guns ownership is very limited, like in Japan.

Probably the only place in Europe that comes even close to Japan is UK. All other countries trust their citizens at least in some degree and allow licensed gun ownership.

Which I am, by the way, a strong supporter. But carrying them around is not needed in my opinion, especially not in a riot, err, I mean a protest.

 

[Frenchy]

Bannon is fired guys! Whos next?
Shit sometimes I despise the U.S but for reality shows and overall TV dramas you guys are way way above other countries. Bravo!

 

[roots reggae]

Bannon is fired guys! Whos next?
Shit sometimes I despise the U.S but for reality shows and overall TV dramas you guys are way way above other countries. Bravo!

If only the current drama was merely a reality show.

 

[MossBoss]

Liberal commentator, Bill Maher, described Clinton's election campaign with all the celebs as basically a 'Pepsi commercial'. At least some of those deadbeats have been put back in their boxes.

Even if you hate Trump, you got to admit the alternative wouldn't have been much better!