Wife Rejecting Husband's Sex Requests

[GoldenDalton]

"program her for the type of sex that you like."

"after the 1st month, many women shut down, in terms of "trainabilty""

"Now the guy is just her bank ATM."

Most of what you said was useful, but ugh...come on man...

My experience is that he's right, even if it does seem unpleasant. Of course my experience isn't universal- I don't claim that- I just don't have anything else to go on.

My understanding is the Solomg advocates maintaining frame and valuing your own sexuality/time/money. If you " lay down the law" and maintain frame early you'll get better results than if you have to adapt to her frame.

There's no truly equal relationship really. Even among platonic friendships between the same sex, or children, or someone's let turtkes, a subtle ( or not so subtle) hierarchy tends to emerge, and while it's counterintuitive, if she's on the top of that hierarchy you can hang it up as hypergamy isn't satisfied by her " equal" ( really inferior tbh) partner.

These are just my thoughts on what Solong was saying, with some of my thoughts on game in general added in. My perspective comes from having been burned, and also doing pretty well with women at other times.

But it's not the be all end all. YMMV.

 

[TheDutchElm]

This just sounds like PUA fluff to me. If your goal is to game/play women, I'm sure it works some of the time. There are plenty of stupid women out there who fall for these asymmetric power tropes. But the satisfying relationships I've had (even ones that were almost purely sexual/FWB) were good because I treated my partner as my equal and demanded that same respect from her.

 

[meiji]

My experience is that he's right, even if it does seem unpleasant.

I don't doubt that he and others of the (successful?) PUA types have good success with that type of belief system, language and behavior. I just think talking that way encourages others to not see being with women in a truly intimate way instead of just as a means for sex (even if he himself doesn't feel that way -- I dunno).

My understanding is the Solomg advocates maintaining frame and valuing your own sexuality/time/money. If you " lay down the law" and maintain frame early you'll get better results than if you have to adapt to her frame.

There's other ways of saying the same thing. It's called being assertive or even a little aggressive, having boundaries, and being attentive to others needs while making sure that your own are met. This doesn't necessarily require having long talks or any of the other touchy-feely stuff, but at least this way you aren't talking about an us-vs-them, zero sum game where you have to get yours before she steals all your money. On both sides of any relationship, people either need to make their needs and feelings known somehow, OR be willing to live without certain needs, OR end up being unhappy because they were too passive to get their needs met. It's up to both the man and the woman to decide what they want and what they are willing to do sexually. For example if the guy expects anal sex and the girl refuses to do it, there's no 'training' that's going to get the guy what he wants. The guy needs to be confident in expressing his need, but if the girl isn't gonna do it, it's then up to the guy to decide if he's willing to live with that or move on.

It has nothing to do with 'training' and everything to do with 'asking', even if you are doing it in a non-verbal way.

There's no truly equal relationship really. Even among platonic friendships between the same sex, or children, or someone's let turtkes, a subtle ( or not so subtle) hierarchy tends to emerge, and while it's counterintuitive, if she's on the top of that hierarchy you can hang it up as hypergamy isn't satisfied by her " equal" ( really inferior tbh) partner.

Well, sure. Especially with most Japanese women the guy has to take the lead, and that goes not only for sex but for choosing where to go out, etc. That's a big part of the reason I like dating Japanese women that have spent a little time abroad, so that they have a little backbone.

 

[GoldenDalton]

I myself am not really interested in an " equal" relationship just because what I'm seeing is that that term is usually only applies where the guy is so whipped he has no input at all. Keep in mind I'm in the U.S. not Japan. My Japanese experiences have been a little different. Maybe when I get back over there six months from now I will have a different perspective.



By " training" I am thinking Solong is really referring to the negotiation phase at the beginning of the relationship, basically wanting the guy to ask for more. I get where he's coming from. A ton of men sell themselves short. Again I'm in the U.S. , dealing with that market, where unlike in Japan, the "average" woman is much more aggressive and much less physically attractive due to widespread obesity, yet feels entitled to much more.

For me, atm, I'm not interested in a deeper bond, as I really am questioning whether they exist or not. Of course I'm torn, but at the same time, for every instance I feel " incomplete" it seems like some guy I knew way back when is getting his ass handed to him in a divorce. And going through all of that just to pay a woman to leave is way out of bounds for me.

But again your experience might be different. In an ideal world, I'd follow your perspective- but the only women I've met capable of being that kind of loving partner are in S. America. My one quasi-serious relationship in Japan seemed to work that way too, but I'm wary of letting my guard down there and getting the shaft like guys do here, as many guys I've talked to have stated that Japanese women are just as mercenary as their American counterparts. I find that hard up believe, but it's not something I want to learn the hard way.

To each his own- I'm guessing that our unique experiences are going to shape how we react here. If your experiences are positive then you don't have a lot of reasons to be cynical most likely. My experiences are with super-entitled, yet super-ratchet Midwestern U.S. "Cheese Queens," atm, so you know how that goes. I'm gonna be back in Kyushu in six months though.

 

[Cobra_X30]

I myself am not really interested in an " equal" relationship just because what I'm seeing is that that term is usually only applies where the guy is so whipped he has no input at all. Keep in mind I'm in the U.S. not Japan. My Japanese experiences have been a little different. Maybe when I get back over there six months from now I will have a different perspective.
By " training" I am thinking Solong is really referring to the negotiation phase at the beginning of the relationship, basically wanting the guy to ask for more. I get where he's coming from. A ton of men sell themselves short. Again I'm in the U.S. , dealing with that market, where unlike in Japan, the "average" woman is much more aggressive and much less physically attractive due to widespread obesity, yet feels entitled to much more.
For me, atm, I'm not interested in a deeper bond, as I really am questioning whether they exist or not. Of course I'm torn, but at the same time, for every instance I feel " incomplete" it seems like some guy I knew way back when is getting his ass handed to him in a divorce. And going through all of that just to pay a woman to leave is way out of bounds for me.
But again your experience might be different. In an ideal world, I'd follow your perspective- but the only women I've met capable of being that kind of loving partner are in S. America. My one quasi-serious relationship in Japan seemed to work that way too, but I'm wary of letting my guard down there and getting the shaft like guys do here, as many guys I've talked to have stated that Japanese women are just as mercenary as their American counterparts. I find that hard up believe, but it's not something I want to learn the hard way.
To each his own- I'm guessing that our unique experiences are going to shape how we react here. If your experiences are positive then you don't have a lot of reasons to be cynical most likely. My experiences are with super-entitled, yet super-ratchet Midwestern U.S. "Cheese Queens," atm, so you know how that goes. I'm gonna be back in Kyushu in six months though.

I am also in the U.S. market at the moment. I was married for 10 years or so and ran afoul the sexless marriage deal.

I can't prove it, but I really think there is some part of the female sex drive that is all about "keeping" a man. This of course only applies to certain women... but I've found it to be a very common trait among American girls. I think perhaps acting as if I'm about to leave creates a kind of insecurity that leads to sexual desire. Anyone else experienced this?

 

[Cobra_X30]

I'm sorry to hear your situation is like that. I honestly don't know how to even begin fixing marriages at that point.

As much as I would like to take Western Feminism out behind the woodshed... I have to admit it has an iron grip on our educational facilities and political discourse.

 

[GoldenDalton]

I am also in the U.S. market at the moment. I was married for 10 years or so and ran afoul the sexless marriage deal.

I can't prove it, but I really think there is some part of the female sex drive that is all about "keeping" a man. This of course only applies to certain women... but I've found it to be a very common trait among American girls. I think perhaps acting as if I'm about to leave creates a kind of insecurity that leads to sexual desire. Anyone else experienced this?

Absolutely. It's an irritating dynamic but not one I've been able to tolerate.

It's been a while since I've taken one of these hos ( American females) seriously, tbh.

 

[GoldenDalton]

Dude the entire game is rigged to lock men into sustaining women, and for women to have sexual dominance. To address your question: Yes. If you flip the script and suddenly you leaving is a possibility, you're likely to meet with one of the following responses:

1. Your wife will become more solicitous. She thinks she needs to please you to keep you.

2. Your wife will become hostile. She sees your increasing assertiveness as a threat and a disturbance to "the way things should be."

3. Your wife will become suspicious. She will start wondering who you are banging.

4. Your wife won't care. She knows the laws are set to favor her and you leaving would be a blessing.

You see how three of the four options--and there are more out there--are not favorable?

A woman can totally shut down, let herself go, and become a fat, frumpy mother beast--or in the Japanese case just a sexless mom--and this is entirely socially acceptable. A man cannot say "Hey, you're breaking the deal here." That's "fat shaming" and not allowed. Or in Japan there's always affairs, but don't get caught.

But a woman can say "You're not meeting my emotional needs" and it's okay.

It's no secret that in marriages what happens is that women let themselves go and lose interest once the biological imperative of reproduction is fulfilled. Men, conversely, stop being as solicitous and stop working as hard to please as they did in the early, "diplomat phase" of the relationship. Both sides take each other for granted but men get shortchanged because their position is devalued as selfish.

Men's expression of love tends to be physical. The act of locking down to a single woman and continuing to have sex with her even as she declines is an act of love. It is a massive middle finger to millions of years of primate evolution and sexuality. But women do not see it as such. Men's sexuality is always looked down on as a purely mechanical function, and never given value. Wanting to fuck your wife is often seen as bothersome. "Why do you only approach me when you want to have sex?" Have you heard this before? Sex is given no value as an expression of love.

Unless it is sex with another woman. Then sex is the most precious expression of love ever. The hypocrisy of this essential female stance on sex is the bedrock upon which the inherently male-hostile institution of marriage and monogamy is built.

Much more could be said on the topic, and each man's experience is different. I speak only from my experience but feel that there is broader applicability.

I am not down on women--in fact I have an abundance of love for women--but after fifteen years of marriage, and about the same before that being generally not treated nicely in relationships, I see the way things are and I've taken steps to redress my sufferings. I recommend it to any man dissatisfied with his lot as long as he fulfills his duties otherwise and is not unjust in the pursuit of his happiness.

Here's how it went down for me. I had recently had enough of my wife's shit and had basically stopped asking permission to go out, and as a result had a lot of unaccounted time. I was getting hassle over it so I took the opportunity to tell her that it's this kind of shit that has made her totally unattractive. I was willing to forgive her physical decline and disinterest in sex, but this was too much. I put her on notice that we had just entered the post-sexual era of our relationship. She was crushed. That brings up response 5, which I did not raise above, which is emotional collapse. My wife is going to receive a first-class education on what it is to be a man, to know what it is like to want sex and have to ask for it. Or not. Either way is fine.

Utter truth.

 

[johnnyboy84]

stuff like this is why i wish japan had talk shows like oprah or rikki lake to openly talk about sexual relationships, especially between married couples. if there is one, please tell me.

 

[Cobra_X30]

Absolutely. It's an irritating dynamic but not one I've been able to tolerate.
It's been a while since I've taken one of these hos ( American females) seriously, tbh.

I was reading through Iron Giant's thread a few days back and Scotty gives a great tutorial on how to use the AM website. I have to admit I was shocked because I used it a few years back in the Bay area. I spent about $400 in total and most of the women I met were either massively overweight... or straight up asked me for a sugar daddy relationship. I remember this one chick in particular lied about her weight (par for the course), and then after only meeting her for 10 minutes she straight up tells me she wants a generous man and expects at minimum $1,000 a month. This lady looked like Mimi from the Drew Carey Show. I told her to stuff it and she went off on me about wasting her time!

I really never considered that this site might be worthwhile in Japan. I don't frequently go there, but I may wind up working for a Japanese company soon.

 

[GoldenDalton]

I was reading through Iron Giant's thread a few days back and Scotty gives a great tutorial on how to use the AM website. I have to admit I was shocked because I used it a few years back in the Bay area. I spent about $400 in total and most of the women I met were either massively overweight... or straight up asked me for a sugar daddy relationship. I remember this one chick in particular lied about her weight (par for the course), and then after only meeting her for 10 minutes she straight up tells me she wants a generous man and expects at minimum $1,000 a month. This lady looked like Mimi from the Drew Carey Show. I told her to stuff it and she went off on me about wasting her time!

I really never considered that this site might be worthwhile in Japan. I don't frequently go there, but I may wind up working for a Japanese company soon.

I feel you man. It's straight up ridiculous at this point.

My consolation is my facebook- seeing the butthurt in the comments of these girls when I post pics of the Venezuelan girls I date. Don't know what the hell I'm back here ( U.S.) for. Soon Japan will be my residence again.

 

[Cobra_X30]

I feel you man. It's straight up ridiculous at this point.

My consolation is my facebook- seeing the butthurt in the comments of these girls when I post pics of the Venezuelan girls I date. Don't know what the hell I'm back here ( U.S.) for. Soon Japan will be my residence again.

How do you convince your company to station you in Japan? I worked for a Japanese medical company for a few years and they would fly me to Tokyo for a week every year... but that's it. I'm thinking maybe if I get better at the language?

 

[Solong]

I am also in the U.S. market at the moment. I was married for 10 years or so and ran afoul the sexless marriage deal.

I can't prove it, but I really think there is some part of the female sex drive that is all about "keeping" a man. This of course only applies to certain women... but I've found it to be a very common trait among American girls. I think perhaps acting as if I'm about to leave creates a kind of insecurity that leads to sexual desire. Anyone else experienced this?

I believe what you are referring to, is something that I call encouraging female competition and competitiveness.

It's one of the few things that keep many women in line and acting properly towards their man, and especially since many women no longer understand how to be a lady or commit to a feminine role.

This is where you have a woman prove herself worthy of the position of being your wife or woman. Instead of her being arrogant and feeling entitled, she feels that you will LEAVE her or REPLACE her with another woman, so she does her best for you. You simply will not accept poor treatment.

I do this all the time with my team of ladies, and it works well or I replace them.

Without encouraging this need within women to prove themselves, you can get the opposite. Where a woman can take you for granted, feel she doesn't have to do anything for you, or even that she is above or superior to you. And when women develop this complacent attitude or even disdain, the relationship often breaks down or can even turn into emotional and financial abuse of the man.

And contrary to the opinions of some that don't know how many women really operate, a lot of women LIKE this type of relationship dynamic. The woman has a GOAL. This can be her main goal in life, which is to keep and satisfy her man. However, what many men don't know (and something I found out the hard way myself), is a man must usually set the situation up. He must create the goals for which his women strive for. And this dynamic must often start from early in the relationship. She is following your lead.

 

[Cobra_X30]

It is hell to re-establish relational context in a 14-year old marriage. It is like jacking up concrete.
Though the OP was about refusal of sex, sex is just the start, if you have let things slide for a long time general disregard can set in as the normal state of affairs. Especially if as in my case you have not asserted yourself, but have instead--as sick as this sounds--treated your wife as a sort of surrogate mommy with benefits. Disdain and contempt can be the order of the day.
I'll give you an example of the kind of hassle you can expect if you do not set frame that you are a competent decisionmaker whose ability to assess a situation and take correct action is to be respected:
My wife reports that her cell phone screen is intermittently going black. It's a 4 year old cell phone so that's to be expected. We have enough money to get her a new cell phone without difficulty. I stop by the cell phone store and take a picture of the logical replacement model, and ask "What color?" She answers "Red." I text that I will figure it out.
I get a phone call. She's full of all manner of reasons why she doesn't want me to see to it. It turns nasty, because here I was looking to take time out of my day to handle a clear problem set, and instead of "Thanks, honey," I get a ration of shit. I end up telling her that this is what people mean when they lament how pushy and unappreciative American women are, and I put her on notice that I am blocking her for 24 hours.
The problem was that when we married I was in a poor state. She took charge of the finances and was very helpful in getting my debt organized and on the right path to repayment. But as the years wore on, her perception of me as a irresponsible boy man never changed. In the fourteen years of my marriage I have obtained three degrees, quadrupled what was our combined income when we got married by myself, and enabled the purchase of two homes, and many other luxuries. None of this is good enough. I am still unable to make a decision as simple as replacing her aging and malfunctioning iPhone 4 that she has been complaining about for weeks with a new iPhone 5c in the color she wants.
To say this is annoying would be a vast understatement.
But it's what you get if you marry when you are weak and lonely. It isn't just that you have to be a man worthy of respect to get respect. No. I have to invent time travel and go back and not ever have been weak. The evidence that this is true? I get stuff from over a decade ago thrown at me with annoying regularity. Especially when I am making a good and rational case for my point of view.
Solong's counsel is true and wise. I attest to it, and testify with my tale of woe as to the perils of not being authoritative and worthy at all places and times. Or, to put it another way, if one person in the relationship is left to feel that they do not need to earn the respect of the other. I was too easygoing, for too long, with dire results.

Scotty, that seriously sounds like you have essentially lived my life! I met my xWife in college and I was captain of the rowing team, generally destined for great things. We started dating and frankly... I had not emotionally matured. I racked up debts, had trouble getting my career started... ect. My xWife seemed to take me on as some kind of renovation project... she changed how I dressed, the food I ate, my career goals... everything! I took it because I agreed it was making me better, what I didn't realize is that it was making her completely unable to respect me. 5 years into our relationship I started making more money than her... started standing up to her. That didn't go over well and it became a constant power struggle.

Fixing it IS like jacking up concrete, but honestly... it may be worth a try. Take a look at a book called "The Surrendered Wife". I strongly recommend you have your wife read this... as it deals directly with the subject of Control Freak Wives. I didn't have my xWife read this book until we had already divorced. I can understand if you have hit the point where you don't care to try.

Solong's advice generally works if you are running a stable of women. I tend to operate one at a time, so other methods must be employed. What really seems to work well is emotional unavailability, combined with some moments of vulnerability.

 

[Solong]

@Cobra

My concern with the unavailable/vulnerable style is that many women usually excel at playing that game better than many men. My experience with it was getting dragged into drama and more manipulation.

Everybody, of course, has their preferred methods. What has worked for me has been being clear about my expectations, setting goals for the women, and having women be honest.

In the context of honesty and especially with Japanese women, I find they tend to hide their feelings and opinions. This can build animosity or create the "revenge game", where she sneakily tries to get back at you for real or imagined slights. So I have learned to do my best to create a situation where we can "constructively" be honest, strive to eliminate negativity, and we can build a strong team. This goes well with goals and expectations.

 

[Cobra_X30]

@Cobra
My concern with the unavailable/vulnerable style is that many women usually excel at playing that game better than many men. My experience with it was getting dragged into drama and more manipulation.
Everybody, of course, has their preferred methods. What has worked for me has been being clear about my expectations, setting goals for the women, and having women be honest.
In the context of honesty and especially with Japanese women, I find they tend to hide their feelings and opinions. This can build animosity or create the "revenge game", where she sneakily tries to get back at you for real or imagined slights. So I have learned to do my best to create a situation where we can "constructively" be honest, strive to eliminate negativity, and we can build a strong team. This goes well with goals and expectations.

I agree that many women naturally play that game better than men. I could go into depth on how to work this angle so that sometimes women go bat$hit crazy over you, but this forum pertains to Japanese women.

Explain how you get Japanese women to open up like that? Do you do anything special or just talk about feelings frequently?

 

[Solong]

I agree that many women naturally play that game better than men. I could go into depth on how to work this angle so that sometimes women go bat$hit crazy over you, but this forum pertains to Japanese women.

Explain how you get Japanese women to open up like that? Do you do anything special or just talk about feelings frequently?

I use a lot of 3rd party stories with women. A story about a 3rd party or a story in which 3rd parties approve of your conclusions.

I strongly advise guys to master this style, as part of their "tool box".

Note- It may not come easy for every guy, so can require practice and research. It can take some skill to not make the 3rd party story too obvious or too hidden. There is a balance, in the middle, that is the most effective. Furthermore, not everything can be a 3rd party story, but it can be used to help lay down a foundation.

Many women get very defensive if you criticize something about them or about what they are doing. And it's even worse if she is strongly illogical and more emotional than average. Instead of change, she can become more stubborn or want to get revenge on you for hurting her ego or pride.

And this is very important for us guys, because many of us tend to have logical debates and try to "win". I have been very guilty of doing such with women in the past. This can result in the guy getting frustrated, the woman, or you both. You then get into these twisted little private wars.

It's much better if we guys create a situation where she is ON OUR SIDE, while looking at a problem. The best way is to use or even create a convincing story about the problem you wish to address or goal you wish to achieve.

Women will often at least subconsciously pick up on what you want. And if a debate occurs, it's you and her together, versus the 3rd party in the story.

In this context, many women (especially Japanese) often feel more comfortable and open up to talk about their feelings on 3rd party characters in your stories.

Other bonuses are: 1) when this is done EARLY in a relationship, you can somewhat program many women to be how you like. 2) You can TEST and safely see her reactions to things like bisexuality or willingness to go swinging, etc...

 

[k1234k]

Gentlemen- you reap what you sow.