Speaking to Female Friends about P4P experiences

Lukes said:

Let's hope that friend of yours doesn't repeat the story to your future wife, lol.

I'm somewhat close with a few female coworkers and despite being drunk as a skunk, I have refrained from telling them anything but the most censored versions of some good bachelor party stories. I think they'd probably be interested in hearing the more graphic ones but because I work in the Puritanical States of Amen'Merica, I have my position to consider.

Click to expand...

that's a very western idea, here the p4p scene is not as frown upon as you seem to think.

even if his future wife knows he went to p4p before he met her what's the issue ?

In the states, some dudes are afraid to even be spotted in Hooters. Noticed that trend during a trip back home once. Talk about reverse culture shock

I guess I'm lucky to live in the UK and with pretty liberal minded friends. And, of course, being single makes me worry a lot less about any gossip getting back to a spouse! Even so, from my point of view I'm not doing anything illegal, and I'm not doing anything immoral. So I refuse to let anyone make me feel ashamed about it. Fortunately, none of the people I'm close to (at least where the subject has come up) have turned out to be like that. Maybe it'll lose me a friend one day and I'll reconsider, but for now my attitude is pretty simple: if you ask me, you'll get an honest answer.

Durg50 said:

None of my female freinds here would be accepting of that. I think the majority would say something as tame as going to a strip club is a divorce-able offence.

One thing i really enjoy in longer sessions with escorts is to talk about this stuff. Interesting to get different opinions. Especially with a session in the UK the escort was amazed about all the different options in japan. Was between pop 1 and 2 and certainly got me in the mood for round 2.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I enjoy that experience to! Mostly they seem to be surprised by how out in the open, relatively speaking, the whole business is. And that's just the soaplands and deriheru, when they hear about Tobita the reactions are priceless.

It's a Diner with semi sexy waitresses. Ribs were pretty good imho

e-smile said:

that's a very western idea, here the p4p scene is not as frown upon as you seem to think.

even if his future wife knows he went to p4p before he met her what's the issue ?

Click to expand...

Just because it's not as frowned upon, doesn't quite mean it's as benign as going to the dentist.

I subscribe to the theory that if your wife doesn't need to know about something, don't tell her. She gets to live on being ignorant of your sordid exploits and you get to keep on having them, lol.

Not only female friends but also paper-wife, ex-GF... heck maybe some day I will tell my mum

Rusty Trombone said:

Female friends vs Female co-workers are 2 very different dynamics.

I've divulged details of affairs etc in a drunken stupor, and also taken females to places like girls bars, kyaba etc.

So far trust never seems to have been breached.
And I find that many Japanese women are interested in the night life industry and they really enjoy being taken a little outside their comfort zone.

Click to expand...

This is pretty much my experience except for the drunken stupor part. In general if I have known a woman (Japanese or not) for a while, long enough to get the impression that she is reasonably open-minded (nonjudgmental) and fun-loving in her own life (and if she isn't, it is unlikely that we will ever be close or important to each other in any sense, including just platonic friendship, anyway), I feel free to mention that I have frequently participated in p4p over many years. If the lady in question is curious and seems eager to hear more, which is the case more often than not, then I talk to her about my experiences pretty openly and in as much detail as she seems to want. It has never caused me any serious problem and has often led to a closer and more open connection between us, sharing "secrets" and personal information does that for people. Surprisingly often, or maybe it isn't surprising, it turns out that she has fantasies about being a sex worker herself. It is almost a seduction technique (cue @Sinapse ).

For all those in this thread (and beyond) who think talking about p4p openly to "civilian" women (or men) is insanely risky and wildly unwise, I can't help wondering if that opinion doesn't reflect some feeling that commercial sex is wrong and shameful...that talking about it is equivalent to admitting to doing something terrible and disgraceful. We make our realities with our attitudes and beliefs (cue @Troilist ), and if you present your p4p experiences to someone with that attitude, conscious or unconscious, you invite/cause them to judge you negatively. Whereas if you speak of it comfortably and with no feeling of shame or regret, you have gone a long way toward dispelling the social taboo.

-Ww

I've a good friend with an ex colleague from my workplace who stayed in Tokyo. One time I was late to see her for coffee because I was rushing from p4p and her first reaction when she asked why I was late, "You went to a soapland didn't you?, Ha ha". She's pretty cool about it.

Luke JP said:

from my point of view I'm not doing anything illegal, and I'm not doing anything immoral. So I refuse to let anyone make me feel ashamed about it.

Click to expand...

This.

-Ww

SugoiBoy said:

Japanese women typically seem to be more tolerant of P4P than American women, but I would still be cautious.

Click to expand...

That's always been my perception. Back in my McJob days, most of the young gaijin male teachers and young Japanese female office staffers would hang out and get loaded after work, and any time the guys suggested we hit a pink salon or titty bar, the girls generally just laughed it off, if not downright encouraged it. Then again, it's not like any of us were upstanding paragons of virtue. Actually, the office manager also worked at a kyabakura after hours, and another of the girls worked a straight deriheru service at night and loved to brag about it the next day.

The topic actually used to come up a lot in discussions with female students, and being new to Japan, I was stunned by the number of girls who had an opinion along the lines of, "I don't care what my husband does, as long as he uses and condom and always comes home to me."

Two of my (ex) girlfriends, early on in the relationship, would ask if I'd ever done any P4P activities--in particular, if I'd ever been to Tobita Shinchi. I obviously said NO, but they both would suggest that it didn't matter because it was in the past, as long as I used a condom. But then again, this was while living in Osaka. I don't think any straight male in Osaka over the age of 21 HASN'T been to Tobita Shinchi.

My other half now has always assured me that no matter what I did in the past, it wasn't her business and didn't matter. Then again, she is pretty open-minded (by Japanese standards). We're going to hit Nana Plaza in Bangkok later this year just to check out all the trannies and other fun sights to be seen. She'd probably laugh her ass off if I tried buying one.

Stateside, back when my friends and I were in our late teens and early 20s, we often used to hit the strip clubs and bring the girlfriends along. The (female) strippers loved it and some of them would make out with our girlfriends. And after that, if it got the girlfriends all hot and bothered, we'd take them back to the car and fuck in the strip club parking lot. Being young and utterly fucking careless was awesome.

But I'm not young, anymore, and in my business information is the standard currency. I keep everyone on a need-to-know basis and as far as I'm concerned there are very, very few people who need to know anything at all. Being old and overly careful does indeed suck, but that's what the occasional trip back to Japan is for.

Keihan Chikan said:

We're going to hit Nana Plaza in Bangkok later this year just to check out all the trannies

Click to expand...

Wait - they sell auto parts there too?

Sudsy said:

Wait - they sell auto parts there too?

Click to expand...

What scares me most is that if the other half wasn't around, I'd probably buy ANYTHING they're selling. It'll take a concerted effort to limit my alcohol intake and avoid a Hangover II experience.

Based on everything I know and experienced as a young man in Japan, it is. I've been stalked by horny cougars with kids and rich husbands who are off screwing teenagers. I was too young to recognize the opportunity. Too bad. I'll try to do better in the next life.

Wwanderer said:

I can't help wondering if that opinion doesn't reflect some feeling that commercial sex is wrong and shameful

Click to expand...

Amateur dime store psychology aside, isn't it enough to know that some others out there hold that view and that there is no need for them to know anything they dont need to know?

Keihan Chikan said:

But I'm not young, anymore, and in my business information is the standard currency. I keep everyone on a need-to-know basis and as far as I'm concerned there are very, very few people who need to know anything at all.

Click to expand...

Wise man.

TheScientist said:

Amateur dime store psychology aside, isn't it enough to know that some others out there hold that view and that there is no need for them to know anything they dont need to know?

Click to expand...

I understand your point I think, namely that it could easily have some sort of negative consequences for me if people who consider p4p to be wrong and shameful were aware that I do it, so why not keep it a secret to avoid those consequences. It makes some sense, yes. However, consider that there are some people who think gambling is wrong and shameful and some who think eating meat is wrong and shameful and some that thing drinking alcohol is wrong and shameful and some that think dancing is wrong and shameful and some who think masturbating is wrong and shameful and some who think cursing (blasphemy) is wrong and shameful and some who think refusing to accept certain (their personal) religious beliefs is wrong and shameful... You get the picture. And as you surely know (I hope), there are some people who feel VERY strongly about all of those things. And, as you might guess, I not only do and enjoy p4p but all of those other things I've listed above and many others of which some people strongly disapprove. I don't know about you, but I definitely would not want to live my life carefully hiding everything I do or think that would cause some people to seriously disapprove of me. No thanks...and I trust it is pretty obvious why. If nothing else, it would make me feel cowardly and spineless.

Now, to be clear, this does not mean that I feel compelled to advertise all of my potentially objectionable (to some) behaviors. I don't go around wearing t-shirts that say "I'm a gambler, and I eat red meat cooked medium rare (and sometimes just plain raw)" any more than I go around wearing t-shirts that say, "I have sex with prostitutes regularly", but I also don't go out of my way to hide such facts about myself. If casinos or steak houses come up in a conversation, I don't pretend that I know nothing about such things just to prevent anyone from thinking badly of me.

Call it "amateur dime store psychology" if you wish, but my strong hunch remains that people who hide their participation in p4p in ways that they wouldn't hide, say, that they drink alcohol or dance, feel very differently about p4p than they do about drinking and dancing. In particular they are buying into the stigmatization of commercial sex to at least some degree.

-Ww

Wwanderer said:

However, consider that there are some people who think <things> is wrong

Click to expand...

Crappy analogies. None of those actions have any legal or social consequences outside of Sharia law countries on their own. Aint no one gonna cause me trouble getting jobs because of a glass of wine with a steak, etc.

Wwanderer said:

Call it "amateur dime store psychology" if you wish

Click to expand...

Well since it's Japan and since the dime store is a thing of the past, lets call it 100 Yen Shop psychology. But regardless of the name I am clearly saying you are engaging in bullshit analysis of other peoples thought systems.

Wwanderer said:

In particular they are buying into the stigmatization of commercial sex to at least some degree.

Click to expand...

Thats as bad as the cancel culture woke accusations.

Wwanderer said:

Call it "amateur dime store psychology" if you wish, but my strong hunch remains that people who hide their participation in p4p in ways that they wouldn't hide, say, that they drink alcohol or dance, feel very differently about p4p than they do about drinking and dancing. In particular they are buying into the stigmatization of commercial sex to at least some degree.

-Ww

Click to expand...

You're making very lucid and valid points but I think the issue is that you're on TAG, of all places, and indirectly accusing folks here of "buying into the stigmatization of commercial sex." Your beef really isn't with the kind of guy (or girl) who signs up on TAG to engage in P4P discussions; it's with the rest of society that ISN'T signed up here.

You're very idealistic, and that's a good thing. In an ideal world, people would be free to discuss engaging in safe and legal pastimes. Consenting adults would be able to enter into legal contractual agreements where an agreed-upon service was provided for an agreed-upon fee that satisfied both parties. I could've been the poster-boy for free market capitalist libertarianism.

Unfortunately, this free market capitalist libertarian also works in an industry where idealism has to take a permanent backseat to realism, and the reality of the situation is that a very large segment of society does not approve of engaging in commercialized sexual activity. It can hurt your reputation, your livelihood and future prospects in most every aspect of your life. I can't go into specifics but I'm basically a walking safeguard for important people. I work behind the scenes in messaging, public relations and, most importantly, damage control for people who have a whole hell of a lot to lose if they end up on the news along with a nasty headline. And what I've learned in over a decade in this business is you NEVER take risks. Ever. My job is to predict what some asshole might do after a few drinks and a successful fundraiser and 1) stop him from doing it, or 2) if it happens, make like it never happened, and then 3) if it makes the news, blame it on someone else or spin it into a wild conspiracy theory. And believe me, the biggest reasons I get phone calls at 2am and then enjoy two or three sleepless days is because the asshole I was supposed to be watching either got an intern drunk and took her home or paid for sex and got caught.

I'll go back to it: NEED TO KNOW BASIS. I know it may have a cathartic or therapeutic effect to spill your beans about P4P and then climb up on that cross, but if you're a guy who values a paycheck, financial security and a healthy relationship with friends, relatives and colleagues, it's always best to keep your mouth shut. Until Miran tells you to open up wide, that is.

Yep, I don’t understand that either, and I’m living it. It’s like, nothing but the occasional platonic peck on the cheek for over a year, and I’m supposed to be satisfied? Fuck that. I made it about 9months before I gave in and went for my first P4P, and honestly I haven’t looked back. In the past 6 months there have been maybe 3 occasions at home with wifey, but it’s horrible because it’s like I’m the last thing to do on her to-do list, whereas she expects to be first on mine all the time. At least at P4P I know I can have a better, if fleeting, connection with the provider and definitely a better time.

The only issue then is not developing feeling for a regular because I know there’s no future there. Very frustrating.

Back to the original topic, I’ve spoken about P4P obviously with guys I’ve been to soaplands with, including my boss and colleagues. While I don’t believe he has ever partaken in P4P himself, my dad was instrumental in convincing me to go for it, because he knew and hated my situation at home. He’s encouraged me multiple times for about a year now to just go for it, so I might tell him I’ve taken his advice when I visit home at the end of the year.

Absolutely right on both accounts. Can’t leave because the risk of losing my kids is too great, and I’d rather reach breaking point and potentially lose them later in the courts than risk losing them in the courts voluntarily sooner.

Another reason is my kids are so young I’m afraid of them forgetting me or being poisoned against me and losing my relationship with them in the event they are taken from me.

As for keeping secrets, I 100% agree with you. The good thing is I work for a Korean company, and P4P is as or more ubiquitous there than here in Japan, so it’s also kind of a given for guys to partake. Also, I have a prior relationship with the big boss from years ago that protects me somewhat (also how I got the job). But yes, I’m very careful whom I talk to with this stuff. The fewer people who know, the better.

Lukes said:

Just because it's not as frowned upon, doesn't quite mean it's as benign as going to the dentist.

I subscribe to the theory that if your wife doesn't need to know about something, don't tell her. She gets to live on being ignorant of your sordid exploits and you get to keep on having them, lol.

Click to expand...

seeing how are teethes here I think it's even more benign.