What is considered good salary in Japan

[e-smile]

Same here. I remember the surprised face of one particular college grad when I said the expected starting salary would be in the 5-6 million range, it was way above expectation apparently. But I've seem similar statistics as mentioned above about the average household income being around 5.5 million for a family of two plus kids. That must be the national average though, can't believe that would work out in Tokyo.

it would because working in Tokyo doesn't necessarily mean living in the most expensive places, especially for a familly

 

[Maxblack]

I'm missing the joke here, whats the horror about Cobol?

Saying you know cobol is like saying you know how to...develop and print film negatives.
Or Hand calligraphy calling cards.
Or drive a steam locamotive.
It is technically impressive, used to be really, really important and widespread, is practically useless now, but if someone needs your skills you can charge whatever you want because they have no other options.

 

[ShowaJidai]

Jokes, especially nerd jokes, should never be explained as it just reveals how bad they were in the beginning.

Cobol is an ancient programming language that originates from 50's. It's designed by a governmental committee and the syntax is English-like and very wordy. Basically what you could do in some other languages in few lines would take Cobol several pages of writing; or at least that's how it felt.

However it was used by many big corporations like banks and insurance companies to build their whole systems. When the new languages run circles around Cobol the number of people who were proficient in it went down but the systems still needed maintaining. And being huge systems that were run 24/7 making changes and fixing errors were tough; thus everyone was happy to avoid any of that.

But you skipped the best part !

A lot of COBOL programs were still being used underneath all the modern languages by hundreds of companies right into the 1990s. Unfortunately a lot of the old programs were not written to work with years bigger than 1999.

So when the world was approaching the year 2000 hundreds of companies were scrambling to hire programers who could read COBOL and go through theis systems before those systems crashed on 1 January 2000.

 

[Jaaz]

My understanding is that some financial institutions, particularly in Japan, are still dependent on COBOL.

That being said, it is a dinosaur language. I definitely recommend focusing on more modern languages. Bilingual, technical resources are still scarce in Tokyo, I think.

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

I'm missing the joke here, whats the horror about Cobol?

I will also add my 5 cent of nerdness. Not only COBOL is wordy and require incredible amount of code for simple actions but also it has strange processing of data. For example - digits by default stored and represented there as decimal numbers not as power of 2 value (this is most effective way since any value in computing is represented with set of 0s and 1s i.e. bits). This leads to incredible memory waste or to complicated process of constant value conversions if you want to be memory effective. And thing that was most strange for me - data conversion processing is separated from main logic. It leads to awkward situations when values and variables in main code literally appear from nowhere. Maybe this was ok in 60's-80's but for modern age developer that is pure savagery.

P.S. Sorry if my post is too nerdy and hard to understand. I tried to explain it simple but without actual programming experience it could be really hard to get the actual idea .

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

Saying you know cobol is like saying you know how to...develop and print film negatives.
Or Hand calligraphy calling cards.
Or drive a steam locamotive.
It is technically impressive, used to be really, really important and widespread, is practically useless now, but if someone needs your skills you can charge whatever you want because they have no other options.

Wow. Your comparisons are really cool. I especially like one with steam locomotive. Catch deserved like

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

But you skipped the best part !

A lot of COBOL programs were still being used underneath all the modern languages by hundreds of companies right into the 1990s. Unfortunately a lot of the old programs were not written to work with years bigger than 1999.

So when the world was approaching the year 2000 hundreds of companies were scrambling to hire programers who could read COBOL and go through theis systems before those systems crashed on 1 January 2000.

Well, not only COBOL made programs had that problem. Most of old school programming languages had that. It just happened that COBOL was most widespread in banking and effects of those problems were felt by clients of those banks.

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

My understanding is that some financial institutions, particularly in Japan, are still dependent on COBOL.

That being said, it is a dinosaur language. I definitely recommend focusing on more modern languages. Bilingual, technical resources are still scarce in Tokyo, I think.

Well, I have some experience in Tokyo IT field by now. And this "technical resources" is not just scarce but it almost on level of disaster. And bilingual one is especially missing. I met a lot of devs in 2 years here. Was on meetups, worked in several companies and I can tell that level on local devs is INCREDIBLY low. From over 50 Japanese devs I speak with only 1 was really strong, and maybe 3 more were actually decent. All others were on university student level at best, even those with 10+ years of experience. Because they were not interested in developing their skills, they only need to spend 10-12+ hour a day sitting in office and in 5-6 years they would automatically get manager position and do same shit but for twice the salary....

Example from my life. This conversation actually happened with me in 2016. On relatively middle sized project where 4 devs (including me) and 1 manager where involved I asked manager - "Why we do not have any testers?" And he replied next - "I believe that you are responsible developer so you should write code without bugs." That was utterly hilarious.

 

[ShowaJidai]

Most of old school programming languages had that.

Yup. Back in the day I did a lot of programming in FORTRAN at what was one of the largest computer companies. Not my main skill so I had other skills to market myself with when that type of programming died like the brontosaurs.

 

[MikeH]

And he replied next - "I believe that you are responsible developer so you should write code without bugs."

That made me snort out so loud there are now several people looking at me.

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

That made me snort out so loud there are now several people looking at me.

Well, most of my IT friends had similar reaction for that .

 

[Jaaz]

And he replied next - "I believe that you are responsible developer so you should write code without bugs." That was utterly hilarious

lol. What's worse if that I think some people really believe that. Customer expectations in regards to software being big free are way off base from reality... but comparing the quality of other goods / services in Japan, I can almost see where they're coming from. Almost.

 

[warubuta]

A well balanced comment. The fact is that Japanese software when viewed from a global standard sucks, but it works. I have no idea what the fuck I am talking about, but I use software from the world and from Japan (a different world) everyday, and, guess what? , Japanese software is way behind. Way behind.

 

[Frenchy]

All others were on university student level at best, even those with 10+ years of experience. Because they were not interested in developing their skills.

Thats something I noticed in other fields too. The dudes just want to do what they’re told, dont have even the most basic sense of curiosity , trying to learn new things, going out of their comfort zone, even less contribute ideas etc... when I tell them « how about doing this or that? What do you think of...? Etc » they look at me like I’m an ET or vampire or something and mutter « I dont have this experience ». Yeah , moron, I know you dont, you’re just 28 ... but do you think we gonna pay you forever for just answering that?!!!!

 

[bergmann]

There are some good Japanese IT people out there, but mostly my experience has been along the lines "wow, that project planning spreadsheet printed out on A3 paper in 2pt font size is cool, man", "nice data exchange API you've designed, if it was 1992 and we were still using dial-up modems", "Greetings, it is me, Bergmann of the Humble XYZ company. I trust the inclement weather is not troubling your relays with undue stickiness. Regarding our most honorable exchange of the previous week we modestly submit a tiny change to your proposed access method which caused us much hilarity but is basically bonkers. We trust this will receive your esteemed consideration", etc..

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

lol. What's worse if that I think some people really believe that. Customer expectations in regards to software being big free are way off base from reality... but comparing the quality of other goods / services in Japan, I can almost see where they're coming from. Almost.

Well, that people belief in almighty developers is understandable to some extent. Devs can do some fancy staff that mere people can't do and for those mere people a lot of high tech staff is really hard to understand so they treat devs who understand that as some kind of omniscient magicians. That is problem but not that big. Such kind of approach existed almost whole history of humanity to different professions. The actual problem is that actual devs or people from IT (at least in my case) believe in such bullshit. Such people do their job having almost 0 understanding what they are actually doing and how it should be done. And such approach is disgustingly frequent in Japan. I really wonder how this country still functioning relatively well in a lot of modern areas considering level of incompetence of local managers and very big part of specialists. When I am working with japanese people I always get feeling that their thinking process stuck somewhere in 90's in best case of in Edo era in usual case...

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

A well balanced comment. The fact is that Japanese software when viewed from a global standard sucks, but it works. I have no idea what the fuck I am talking about, but I use software from the world and from Japan (a different world) everyday, and, guess what? , Japanese software is way behind. Way behind.

True. Most of japanese devs by themselves are low level and incompetent. Usually due to how working process and promotion is done in this country. Company value in workers not skills and thirst for knowledge but loyalty (I was actually told in my first company here that they value loyalty to company above anything in workers). I.e. ameba level guy who actually live in office is considered loyal and would receive high bonuses and rapid career growth. Guy who usually giving propositions and new ideas, argue with management for any changes or improvements and leave work at time to visit meetups or training courses - considered disloyal scum and his career growth is nonexistent and bonuses are minimal. All speaking with management is done on level - "shut the fuck up your mouth and listen your manager! he is your god and knows better then you". And considering ameba level of competence for most of local managers I am totally not surprised that shit is happening almost in all fields in Japan.
Yes, there are really good managers and strong specialist here. But this people are mostly from those who have spent a lot of time abroad and they are drastically outnumbered by local incompetent herds.

P.S. Also there is problems with education system here. Children are educated not to think with their brains but to follow DA RULEZ even if those rules are utterly stupid and outdated for several hundreds of years.

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

Thats something I noticed in other fields too. The dudes just want to do what they’re told, dont have even the most basic sense of curiosity , trying to learn new things, going out of their comfort zone, even less contribute ideas etc... when I tell them « how about doing this or that? What do you think of...? Etc » they look at me like I’m an ET or vampire or something and mutter « I dont have this experience ». Yeah , moron, I know you dont, you’re just 28 ... but do you think we gonna pay you forever for just answering that?!!!!

Well, this problem not of japanese IT but of japanese approach to work. It was working in days of old because world was spinning much slower before. But nowadays all processes in the world are done with such speed that you have to adapt almost constantly to new things. And japanese are not good in adapting and they always cling to old ways with thoughts like "it was good for my father\grandfathers\ancestors so it should be also good for me".

 

[Frenchy]

Well, this problem not of japanese IT but of japanese approach to work. It was working in days of old because world was spinning much slower before. But nowadays all processes in the world are done with such speed that you have to adapt almost constantly to new things. And japanese are not good in adapting and they always cling to old ways with thoughts like "it was good for my father\grandfathers\ancestors so it should be also good for me".

In fairness I think that on average the ladies are more “debrouillardes” as we say in my dialect (not sure about the english equivalent.. resourceful? Nifty?)

 

[TAG Manager]

wow, that project planning spreadsheet printed out on A3 paper in 2pt font size is cool, man"

Wow... that hit home....lol....

 

[warubuta]

Well, that people belief in almighty developers is understandable to some extent. Devs can do some fancy staff that mere people can't do and for those mere people a lot of high tech staff is really hard to understand so they treat devs who understand that as some kind of omniscient magicians. That is problem but not that big. Such kind of approach existed almost whole history of humanity to different professions. The actual problem is that actual devs or people from IT (at least in my case) believe in such bullshit. Such people do their job having almost 0 understanding what they are actually doing and how it should be done. And such approach is disgustingly frequent in Japan. I really wonder how this country still functioning relatively well in a lot of modern areas considering level of incompetence of local managers and very big part of specialists. When I am working with japanese people I always get feeling that their thinking process stuck somewhere in 90's in best case of in Edo era in usual case...

OK OK OK! Enough already with how bad Japanese software developers are. I've heard enough! And here is what I suspect, Jr. You have been working in Japan in the software industry for a while now, haven't you? And, among your incessant complaints about how incompetent everyone is, you are also complaining about the poor treatment you are getting: low salary and lack of recognition. Well, maybe it just might be that you aren't such a great technology leader yourself! Maybe you are just a big complainer who thinks he is better than everyone else and who thinks all his problems are someone else's fault. If Japan is really that bad, maybe you should go back to the brutal, backwards, totalitarian, backwater you came from and develop software there. I am sure there is a good market for second rate weapons software.

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

OK OK OK! Enough already with how bad Japanese software developers are. I've heard enough! And here is what I suspect, Jr. You have been working in Japan in the software industry for a while now, haven't you? And, among your incessant complaints about how incompetent everyone is, you are also complaining about the poor treatment you are getting: low salary and lack of recognition. Well, maybe it just might be that you aren't such a great technology leader yourself! Maybe you are just a big complainer who thinks he is better than everyone else and who thinks all his problems are someone else's fault. If Japan is really that bad, maybe you should go back to the brutal, backwards, totalitarian, backwater you came from and develop software there. I am sure there is a good market for second rate weapons software.

Eh... Are you considering me some kind of stupid jester or what? I am not that retarded to post things that I have imagined by myself. I have bunch of foreigner IT friends here and all of them have same opinion as me. I am often participant of IT meetups here and japanese devs there are 20% of all comers at best. And that is in country with proclaimed 99% japanese population.
As for working places. I can chose almost any country to work in. For last 2 years I got like 20 different proposals in LinkedIn from almost any developed country. I am in Japan because I came here to achieve some goals. I still didn't achieve them. When I would achieve them then I would think about next steps.

P.S. Is this some tradition here to bitch new people? I am getting feeling lately that I am bitched in all my topics. I am totally ok for opposite opinions, I consider myself as smart grown up man not some peremptory kid. But people instead of discussion just become personal and write insults. I never expected such immature behavior in place for actual adults.

P.P.S. And for "brutal, backwards, totalitarian, backwater". Yes, a lot people from "big land" consider Ukraine as "shithole country". I know that. I saw more economic collapses in my life then Japan after Edo period. But IT market there are developed more then in most of "big land" countries. Good times grow weak people, bad times grow strong people. So you should be good to achieve anything there. Country don't care about you, there are almost no organizations that help people with anything. So you must fight your way in this life alone with only support from family if you are lucky to have good one. If you check biography for creators of Google, Paypal and a lot of other top IT companies you would find out that they have Ukrainian roots.

 

[warubuta]

Great! I was just reacting to your 10+ posts on how bad Japanese software is and how incompetent Japanese developers are. You seem to be very unhappy working with people you dont respect. And it seems that they are not very happy with you either as evidenced by the fact that you are not getting the pay and promotions that you want. The insults started with you my friend. Aimed at your collegues, you called them incompetent, lazy, college level and on and on and on. STFU or go someplace where you will be happier and where people will understand how great you are. I am done on this topic.

 

[ShikkokuNoSenshi]

Great! I was just reacting to your 10+ posts on how bad Japanese software is and how incompetent Japanese developers are. You seem to be very unhappy working with people you dont respect. And it seems that they are not very happy with you either as evidenced by the fact that you are not getting the pay and promotions that you want. The insults started with you my friend. Aimed at your collegues, you called them incompetent, lazy, college level and on and on and on. STFU or go someplace where you will be happier and where people will understand how great you are. I am done on this topic.

I am working on better working conditions and better salary. But that takes time. And I am complaining not about my current place (though it is far from ideal) but 2 previous ones that I was happy to leave ASAP. And for insulting some people you do not know. That were not personal insults that were thrown at me. By your logic there should be no bad reviews here, because bad reviews are insults to those providers. And clients guilty themselves that have chosen those bad providers. And those who get bad experience should "STFU and find better place to go"?

 

[TAG Manager]

I am working on better working conditions and better salary. But that takes time. And I am complaining not about my current place (though it is far from ideal) but 2 previous ones that I was happy to leave ASAP. And for insulting some people you do not know. That were not personal insults that were thrown at me. By your logic there should be no bad reviews here, because bad reviews are insults to those providers. And clients guilty themselves that have chosen those bad providers. And those who get bad experience should "STFU and find better place to go"?

Please don’t go taking things personally... the sharpened edges on some posts are just plastic and not metal.

Great! I was just reacting to your 10+ posts on how bad Japanese software is and how incompetent Japanese developers are. You seem to be very unhappy working with people you dont respect. And it seems that they are not very happy with you either as evidenced by the fact that you are not getting the pay and promotions that you want. The insults started with you my friend. Aimed at your collegues, you called them incompetent, lazy, college level and on and on and on. STFU or go someplace where you will be happier and where people will understand how great you are. I am done on this topic.

A little over the top? No?