“association Fee” For Sexfriends Found Online. Real Or Scam?

[Ronaldr]

Hello, I’m a long time lurker of the forum.

I registered on Happy Mail and emailed several women in Kansai who had listed in their profiles having an interest in finding sex friends. I told them beforehand about being foreigner and waited for their replies.

I only received a few positive replies (5% or 10% maybe), but they were rather promptly (same day or next day). The first replies were usually a prewritten message they probably use for anyone, but conversation after that was clearly not automated. In all cases I was told about them having bad experiences in the past, and they asked for 20.000 yen (always the same amount) as a condition for the first meeting. I was assured that meetings after that would not need money, and that they were interest in long term sex friends.

I don’t have experience at all on Happy Mail, or in general about sex friends found online in Japan. Is this sort of arrangement common and expected? Does anyone have experience with it? Keep in mind I’m talking about women in Kansai, not Tokyo, not sure if that is a factor. I might try it, but I’m wary of it.

Things that make me suspect it’s a scam:
—Profiles seem to be too good a deal: younger than 30, looks above average, previous sex work experience, married but without children. Maybe not your ideal romantic partner, but a turn on for mongers.
—They always ask for the same amount of money.
—In at least two cases (out of four) they designated the same meeting place.
—Replies were too promptly.
—No reservation whatsoever about being a foreigner or language. I’m not complaining about the attitude, but the lack of comment seemed unnatural.

Things that make me think it might be real:
—I can understand why would women looking for sexfriends need a money guarantee that you are serious and not just looking for a freebie.
—Messages were clearly different than those from women doing enjou kousai/freelance scorting. The latter are very curt.
—If the scam is just about 20.000 yen, the time they are spending on it is not worth it.

For unrelated reasons I’m not very interested in trying one of these meetings. I might try it, but would like to hear if anyone has had an experience like this before? Or maybe has someone read something about it in Japanese tabloids?

 

[User#16452]

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[Desktop]

Provide 20,000 yen while at a public place watch her go to a bathroom with all her stuff only to never come back perhaps? They might tell you to wire transfer the money before you meet.
Common sense would say scam whatever they tell you is going to happen before providing the money surely will not be the same after you provide the money.

 

[Solong]

Hello, I’m a long time lurker of the forum.

I registered on Happy Mail and emailed several women in Kansai who had listed in their profiles having an interest in finding sex friends. I told them beforehand about being foreigner and waited for their replies.

I only received a few positive replies (5% or 10% maybe), but they were rather promptly (same day or next day). The first replies were usually a prewritten message they probably use for anyone, but conversation after that was clearly not automated. In all cases I was told about them having bad experiences in the past, and they asked for 20.000 yen (always the same amount) as a condition for the first meeting. I was assured that meetings after that would not need money, and that they were interest in long term sex friends.

I don’t have experience at all on Happy Mail, or in general about sex friends found online in Japan. Is this sort of arrangement common and expected? Does anyone have experience with it? Keep in mind I’m talking about women in Kansai, not Tokyo, not sure if that is a factor. I might try it, but I’m wary of it.

Things that make me suspect it’s a scam:
—Profiles seem to be too good a deal: younger than 30, looks above average, previous sex work experience, married but without children. Maybe not your ideal romantic partner, but a turn on for mongers.
—They always ask for the same amount of money.
—In at least two cases (out of four) they designated the same meeting place.
—Replies were too promptly.
—No reservation whatsoever about being a foreigner or language. I’m not complaining about the attitude, but the lack of comment seemed unnatural.

Things that make me think it might be real:
—I can understand why would women looking for sexfriends need a money guarantee that you are serious and not just looking for a freebie.
—Messages were clearly different than those from women doing enjou kousai/freelance scorting. The latter are very curt.
—If the scam is just about 20.000 yen, the time they are spending on it is not worth it.

For unrelated reasons I’m not very interested in trying one of these meetings. I might try it, but would like to hear if anyone has had an experience like this before? Or maybe has someone read something about it in Japanese tabloids?

I'm very doubtful of the legitimacy and usefulness of many Japanese dating sides, including various Western ones. From experience, among those websites or classified ads that work, NO money is exchanged between users other than possible website subscription fees.

The interaction basically goes like: likes or a few messages exchanged at the website, contact info exchanged (e-mail, LINE, Skype, mobile phone), a few personal messages exchanged outside the dating website, a possible phone call and/or date to meet agreed upon between the 2 people, and you meet in person.

Many of the Japanese dating websites (and various Western ones) have a long history of fake profiles or sakura, fraud, scams (my mother sick, so send 10,000 dollars), prostitution, etc...

If you want a prostitute, don't need to use a date website. You can use here, there are hundreds of websites to find sex workers, and you can go out to Deai (Date) Cafes and meet women there. If a prostitute is on a dating website then it often means there is a problem, she is misrepresenting herself, fraud, and you should be wary.

Also, if a Japanese woman is interested in dating western men, in 2016, they often know about popular Western international dating websites. They know Facebook, Tinder, POF, OkCupid, Japan Cupid, Match, AdultFriendFinder, and all kinds of other free sites to put up classified ads (Craigslist, Metropolis...), language exchange, or pen pals.

 

[Kegger]

You are dealing with a a scam. Prob a male, who is pimping out working girls.
You'll meet the girl (not the one in the photo he/she sends) give her the 20,000yen , prob have sex (and she'll be going just after your done coming).

 

[namae]

Danger Will Robinson, Danger. Obvious scam.

Are they asking you to transfer the money by wire transfer or deposit it in a bank account before the meeting? or are they asking you to hand it over to a "girl" at a meeting point?

Where is the meeting point? Public open place?

 

[Ladylisa]

You are dealing with a a scam. Prob a male, who is pimping out working girls.
You'll meet the girl (not the one in the photo he/she sends) give her the 20,000yen , prob have sex (and she'll be going just after your done coming).

If she does have sex with him after he hands over his 20,000 it's not really so much of a scam.

 

[Chocoballs]

Here is an article about dating scams.
"Friars Square employed 23 persons to pretend to be females seeking male partners"

http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2015/10/04/tokyo-dating-site-registered-2-8-million-men-1-woman/

 

[namae]

If she does have sex with him after he hands over his 20,000 it's not really so much of a scam.

That would be a "win" .... relative to, say, being the new gimp attraction at a Bear/Leatherman sex club in Osaka, or decomposing in a sea cave on the Ise penisula.

 

[Ladylisa]

That would be a "win" .... relative to, say, being the new gimp attraction at a Bear/Leatherman sex club in Osaka, or decomposing in a sea cave on the Ise penisula.

No I don't think it even remotely comes close to those horrible examples.


Yes... It's obviously some kind of scam. What we are figuring out is what.
They are obviously not just women looking for a sex friend.
If it's someone pimping out working girls then he gets something for his money at least.

I don't want to get all feminist on your ass, but really?
Comparing getting murdered with getting ripped off is really crass and insulting to women.

 

[namae]

No I don't think it even remotely comes close to those horrible examples.


Yes... It's obviously some kind of scam. What we are figuring out is what.
They are obviously not just women looking for a sex friend.
If it's someone pimping out working girls then he gets something for his money at least.

I don't want to get all feminist on your ass, but really?
Comparing getting murdered with getting ripped off is really crass and insulting to women.

Based on the limited facts we know, my survival instincts would have me working on the assumption that there aren't any women involved.

 

[Ladylisa]

Based on the limited facts we know, my survival instincts would have me working on the assumption that there aren't any women involved.

Yeah me too.

So if there are women (and he actually gets laid) then it's a different scam than the one we think it is.

And if all that happens is that she leaves straight after he comes then he doesn't lose as badly as he might otherwise.

 

[Solong]

Yeah me too.

So if there are women (and he actually gets laid) then it's a different scam than the one we think it is.

And if all that happens is that she leaves straight after he comes then he doesn't lose as badly as he might otherwise.

It is a scam, if the man legitimately thinks a woman likes him or if the man is searching for a real girlfriend, but instead gets hustled into paying her money or paying a prostitute. The woman or her pimp have misrepresented themselves.

 

[Ronaldr]

Thanks for all the comments. I got a few more similar reply mails from profiles claiming to be women and offering the same deal.

I haven’t been asked to wire transfer the money, I assume the money would be handed in person. So far in the cases I have gone as far as setting a meeting place it has been in Kyobashi station, a not very popular station in Osaka, being told that is for avoiding bumping into acquittances.

Most enjou kousai/freelancers ask to meet in popular stations like Namba or Umeda.

If she does have sex with him after he hands over his 20,000 it's not really so much of a scam.

That’s the part of the scam I don’t completely understand. Prices for enjou kousai/freelancers are the same. Sometimes a little bit lower, 15,0000 yen, but also sometimes a little bit higher. Although enjou kousai usually provide a few pictures, it’s my understanding.

If you get to at least have sex once, it wouldn’t be that different from enjou kousai. Unless the scam involves somehow paying in a public place, and then never going to a love hotel.

I’m not interested in enjou kousai. As many have suggested, there are properly stablished and reviewed deriheru for the same starting price (20,000 yen). In Osaka there are also brothels like Tobita which start at the same price. Furthermore, I’m not looking for a compensated relationship, but a sex friend kind of relationship.

Curiosity is getting the best of me. I would really want to know what is this about. If I meet I will be sure not to bring with me my ID or credit cards.

 

[Ronaldr]

After some research online, it seems to be a common scam. The scam being the part of promising the possibility of a sex friend relationship or a different woman based of fake pictures, when in reality is just an agency that looks for customers on deai sites and dispatches sex workers. They call it 援デリ in Japanese, but I understand that is the name for when the deal it’s done “honestly.”

http://www.the-zenith.net/feature-dishonest-dealer/

http://www.the-zenith.net/blog/risk-encounter-illegal-trader/

I still think that the 20,000 yen price is not that big to make the dishonesty worth it, but I guess at some scale it might start working. A “nobody is getting bankrupted, and nobody is getting rich” kind of scam.

Thanks for all the comments. I will let you know if I tried it at least once.

 

[Solong]

After some research online, it seems to be a common scam. The scam being the part of promising the possibility of a sex friend relationship or a different woman based of fake pictures, when in reality is just an agency that looks for customers on deai sites and dispatches sex workers. They call it 援デリ in Japanese, but I understand that is the name for when the deal it’s done “honestly.”

http://www.the-zenith.net/feature-dishonest-dealer/

http://www.the-zenith.net/blog/risk-encounter-illegal-trader/

I still think that the 20,000 yen price is not that big to make the dishonesty worth it, but I guess at some scale it might start working. A “nobody is getting bankrupted, and nobody is getting rich” kind of scam.

Thanks for all the comments. I will let you know if I tried it at least once.

My issue is why do prostitutes or agencies feel the need to attack and trick people on dating websites, versus advertise on the escort websites. Clearly this is a DIFFERENT customer base.

It's arguably better business, if you go after customers who want your services directly and want prostitutes. You then don't run into all kinds of complications, where you are angering dozens of men, to find 1 possible victim for the scam. And where the other angry men aren't trying to report you to the website or worse.

With many of the Japanese dating websites, it appears they know exactly what is going on, and have worked out backdoor deals with agencies offering prostitutes. Looks like they are pulling money from off of both ends. Subscription fees from customers and possibly payments from agencies offering prostitutes. But all of this at the expense of their dating website customers, where they are making fools of them.

This is why their websites almost always fail at some point. And at some point, somebody or group exposes the scam, or they get a bad reputation and their customer base is very low.

 

[RandomTokyoGuy]

Happy Mail exists since quite a while though.

To the OP, did you dive any further into what kind of "troubles" they had? I could imagine you having troubles before as well, like girls looking nowhere near their profile. How about asking for a webcam show first, to proof she is real?

 

[Kegger]

I still think that the 20,000 yen price is not that big to make the dishonesty worth it, but I guess at some scale it might start working. A “nobody is getting bankrupted, and nobody is getting rich” kind of scam.

I had this happen to me on PC-Max and you are right, it is not a huge deal, but the sex you get for 20,000yen is not worth even a quarter of that.
In my case met the girl in Shibuya and she quickly shuttled me to a near by love hotel. Ripped off her clothes (not in a sexy way), jumped on the bed, gave the little fella a couple of tugs, rolled on the condom and got on her haunches for some DS.
I was still at half mast so she gives me a disgusted look and says I have to finish myself off. Finally got angry at her and said no way, so she gave me a half assed CBJ until I could do the deed. So I thought f&$k it and went hammer and tongs.
On completion she was out the door before I could even get the condom off. Whole process took less than 20 minutes.

I was left lying on the bed in the LH with 90 minutes on the clock, and thinking WTF just happened.

Lesson learned.

 

[Solong]

I had this happen to me on PC-Max and you are right, it is not a huge deal, but the sex you get for 20,000yen is not worth even a quarter of that.
In my case met the girl in Shibuya and she quickly shuttled me to a near by love hotel. Ripped off her clothes (not in a sexy way), jumped on the bed, gave the little fella a couple of tugs, rolled on the condom and got on her haunches for some DS.
I was still at half mast so she gives me a disgusted look and says I have to finish myself off. Finally got angry at her and said no way, so she gave me a half assed CBJ until I could do the deed. So I thought f&$k it and went hammer and tongs.
On completion she was out the door before I could even get the condom off. Whole process took less than 20 minutes.

I was left lying on the bed in the LH with 90 minutes on the clock, and thinking WTF just happened.

Lesson learned.

And that's probably why she is scamming guys on a "dating" website. Because with that kind of terrible service, her website or agency would get bad reviews. On a "dating" website that allows rampant prostitution, she can abuse and take advantage of guys at will. It's up to guys not to tolerate being played so badly.

 

[Ronaldr]

Well case closed, after receiving a lot more of these emails on Happy Mail it is clear that it’s a scam. Kegger has also confirmed having experienced it.

I won’t try it, but here is a sample of a conversation for future reference:

メールありがとうございます(*ゝω･*)
欲求不満でエッチが大好きなので長期でセフレの関係を求めています(*vωv)
最初は割り切りで会ってもらって、気に入ってもらえれば体の関係を続けてほしいって思うんですけど、大丈夫なら返事いただけますか？

大丈夫です。
特に条件がありますか？

ありがとうございます(*vωv)
条件なんですけど、相性もあると思うのでまずは月に何度か会う形で、最初は別で２でのお付き合いからお願いしたいです(*ゝω･*)
最初だけで何度も頂く訳ではないですからね♪
ひと月経ってお互い相性が良いと思えば長期のセフレでお願いしたいです♪
こういう所は一度きりの人が多いって聞くのでこの条件でお願いしたいんですけど、大丈夫ですか？
​

Notice that my reply was extremely curt and I still got a positive reply with interest in meeting, and off course the mention of the 20.000 yen (別で２).

From a different conversation, another give away is that they agree to meet immediately.

私の条件なんですけど、ホ別２でのお付き合いからお願いしたいですm(_ _)m
一回会っただけじゃお互い相性合うか分からないと思うし、2回目以降は条件などなしでホ代は私の負担で2～4回程会って相性が合えば関係を続けたいと思ってます♪
大丈夫でしたら一度会っていただけますか？(；ω；)

分かりました。
どこで会えますか？今日は会えますか？

ありがとうございます♪
今日会う事できますよ(｡ゝ∀・)b
会う場所は初対面で土地勘のない所で会うのは抵抗あるので、最初は土地勘のある京橋でお願いしたいですm(_ _)m​

Some mails are more elaborated than others, and if you reply with a longer email the flow of the conversation seems more natural.

 

[User#8628]

These are unofficial delivery healths.
You are talking to a man who'll scedule the appointment, they send you a woman but absolutely different then the photos they use on the website, just one of their random available girls.
They charge 20.000 for FS and the girl gets half of it, the shop the rest.As for my understanding. (I use Japanese dating apps as a freelancer and one of the clients from there explained me how those unofficial DHs work.)

 

[Solong]

Happy Mail exists since quite a while though.

To the OP, did you dive any further into what kind of "troubles" they had? I could imagine you having troubles before as well, like girls looking nowhere near their profile. How about asking for a webcam show first, to proof she is real?

Yes, Happy Mail has been around for a while, but don't find it nor think it's as effective for foreign men as say Tinder, OkCupid, Japan Cupid, POF, Match, Interpals, etc... If a guy has a "winning profile", then he's going to get dates with Japanese women from there.

And the major international dating websites don't allow blatant prostitution and scammers feasting off their male members.

 

[Kegger]

@User#8628
Thanks for the explanation. Thought something like that was going on behind the scenes.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

If it sounds too good to be true then it must be...especially if you are in Japan...and most especially if you are a foreigner in Japan lol.

 

[Ronaldr]

If it sounds too good to be true then it must be...especially if you are in Japan...and most especially if you are a foreigner in Japan lol.

As elemental as it is, there is probably no best advice. I seriously thought about giving it a try (when I only had the first of these mails), but finally common sense prevailed and decided to at least ask in this forum before setting a date. Later I got a bunch of similar mails which made the pattern very clear. I still think that it’s bad business to scam customers in the long term, how are you supposed to make recurrent customers that way?