Being Outed

[Simonka]

Lately I’m hearing news of so many people (both SW and non SW) being outed or threatened to be outed online. I’m naturally a friendly person, but it makes me question provider friendships, opening up to people in my personal life or sharing personal information with clients.

Nikkie de Jager, aka Nikkietutorials on YT came out as a transgender woman on January 13 after being blackmailed by someone who found about her past. I’m not big on Youtubers but I know she is a talented artist on YouTube and she mostly sticks to herself. Back in the day I’ve learned a couple of makeup tricks from her and she was always respectful to others in her videos and didn’t turn herself into a clown for the sake of views.

Sadly, Nikkie is not the first transgender person to face the threat of outing. Both the intimidation and the act can be incredibly harmful to trans people. Their careers and lives are at stake. Nikkie is financially secure and working in an industry that’s more accepting of trans women, but that’s not always the case for others.

The same goes for sex workers since both LGBT people and sex workers are marginalized in society. Even if you’re a career sex worker, face out, being outed might lead to a stalker harming you.

Recently, some high end escorts from NYC have been outed. To protect their privacy I will not post receipts but real names and family members were leaked. Sadly, the perpetrators are most likely other women in the industry. They didn’t even bother to blackmail these women, the outings were maliciously posted online for no financial gain or perhaps the culprit didn’t want to reveal their identity. I just can’t fathom how a sex worker would out a fellow colleague just because she has a few too many Cartier bracelets. The industry is so big that with the right attitude and marketing everyone has a chance to be successful. Success doesn’t equate to harming others!

On the other end of the spectrum, there are providers who steal deposits and threaten to out clients to their families. This will not bring them long term success, plus blackmailing is illegal in some countries. Small businesses like ours benefit highly from trusted relationships and stellar reputation.

What do you gentlemen think?

Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?

 

[Majestyk]

“Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?”

No, ma’am.
If such a provider can purposely breach the privacy of her colleagues, I shudder to think about what malicious things she could do with my information.

 

[MikeH]

In my business life I have stuck to the principle that I learned from an older colleague a long time ago. Never work with anyone who has betrayed the trust in business. Yes, that makes you lose some business but makes your life so much better.

Obviously I stick to that principle in my private life too.

 

[Viggagadye]

It's an incredibly scummy thing to do. I try to meet providers who come across as genuinely nice and professional people, but obviously, you can't really tell.
As for escorts outing other escorts... that seems like something that could backfire and escalate quite badly...
This is why flaunting wealth is a dangerous thing. If I became unusually wealthy, I think I would still dress down most times, not wear expensive watches etc except on special occasions etc, just because of this danger.

 

[Ken4fb]

Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?

Absolutely no.

I have a dream that one day there is no need to be outed. People can just be whatever they want to be, LGBTQ, SW, SD&SB , anything

 

[TheScientist]

I just can’t fathom how a sex worker would out a fellow colleague just because she has a few too many Cartier bracelets.

To put it simply, some women are bitches. Women can be far more horrible to each other than men towards other men.

 

[Frenchy]

There’s outing and outing ...
Doxxing someone publicly just out of spite, envy or for the « fun » of it is definitely bad.
Telling a friend (and him alone) that his wonderful GF who made him think she’s a saint is actually a notorious escort who probably makes more money than him yet pretends to be the poor girl in need... I would do it.

 

[Sudsy]

Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?

Hell no.
Nobody likes a rat.

 

[RandomTokyoGuy]

Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?

To be quite frank, I wouldn't be aware of that unless she puts that in her as. Maybe in a very small community like TAG, but otherwise very unlikely. I would also assume that at least among escorts this will more or less always be anonymous.

If I knew, than no, but that's a very hypothetical question.

 

[Acid Burn]

On the other end of the spectrum, there are providers who steal deposits and threaten to out clients to their families. This will not bring them long term success, plus blackmailing is illegal in some countries. Small businesses like ours benefit highly from trusted relationships and stellar reputation.

What do you gentlemen think?

Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?

No I would not meet one known for scummy behavior. I need to trust the provider will keep my identity safe as client and knowing they don’t value the privacy of others in their same profession makes me doubt they would value mine.

As much as possible though I try to protect myself by not giving out any personally identifiable info to providers. Which is why I won’t ever use any provider that requires things like ID, employment verification, etc. But even without all that, they will know my face. Randomly seeing them in the street I still have to trust my privacy would be maintained.

 

[AMcguyver]

What do you gentlemen think?

Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?

Not a snowball's chance in hell.
Karma always comes back to bite people like that in the ass, so I do my best to avoid those kinds of individuals.
(Mostly because when the shit hits the fan, it is never evenly distributed.)

I've always tried to follow one simple rule in both work and personal life - treat others the way you would want to be treated.

 

[Durg50]

Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?

As others have mentioned, this is a very hypothetical question. Its highly unlikely that a provider would advertise or admit that they do this.

Of course though, the answer is no. Outing / doxxing is shitty behaviour.

The first i ever heard of that Nikkie person was this week when they were ‘outed’. Must be tough, but I hope at least it results in more traffic to their youtube channel.

 

[warubuta]

An escort commenting on the ethics of another escort

Lately I’m hearing news of so many people (both SW and non SW) being outed or threatened to be outed online. I’m naturally a friendly person, but it makes me question provider friendships, opening up to people in my personal life or sharing personal information with clients.

Nikkie de Jager, aka Nikkietutorials on YT came out as a transgender woman on January 13 after being blackmailed by someone who found about her past. I’m not big on Youtubers but I know she is a talented artist on YouTube and she mostly sticks to herself. Back in the day I’ve learned a couple of makeup tricks from her and she was always respectful to others in her videos and didn’t turn herself into a clown for the sake of views.

Sadly, Nikkie is not the first transgender person to face the threat of outing. Both the intimidation and the act can be incredibly harmful to trans people. Their careers and lives are at stake. Nikkie is financially secure and working in an industry that’s more accepting of trans women, but that’s not always the case for others.

The same goes for sex workers since both LGBT people and sex workers are marginalized in society. Even if you’re a career sex worker, face out, being outed might lead to a stalker harming you.

Recently, some high end escorts from NYC have been outed. To protect their privacy I will not post receipts but real names and family members were leaked. Sadly, the perpetrators are most likely other women in the industry. They didn’t even bother to blackmail these women, the outings were maliciously posted online for no financial gain or perhaps the culprit didn’t want to reveal their identity. I just can’t fathom how a sex worker would out a fellow colleague just because she has a few too many Cartier bracelets. The industry is so big that with the right attitude and marketing everyone has a chance to be successful. Success doesn’t equate to harming others!

On the other end of the spectrum, there are providers who steal deposits and threaten to out clients to their families. This will not bring them long term success, plus blackmailing is illegal in some countries. Small businesses like ours benefit highly from trusted relationships and stellar reputation.

What do you gentlemen think?

Would you still meet a provider and feel safe if she was notorious for outing other women?

Yes. Because I take precautions to protect my identity, and I make a serious point of not giving a provider motivation to extort or harm me. Any given providers’ reputation has zero bearing on my perceived or actual safety. In fact I don’t want to know what they may or may not have done and I don’t need to care. Sorry to sound offensive, but sex workers as a category of people are not to be trusted. They are in a business that does not reward trust. They demand cash up front. Most do not base their business on developing repeat customers. Many seem to have contempt for their customers. Best to handle with caution.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

I'm with the Buta on this.
No one deserves to be outed, but you do need to take precautions to protect your identity.

The other thing that got me in the original post was the comparison of the LGBT and SW (especially as high end was mentioned).
While I agree with the OP that both groups are socially marginalized, comparing them in this case doesn't seem right to me.
The basic reasoning is of course that one is a choice, the other one isn't.

 

[MikeH]

Randomly seeing them in the street I still have to trust my privacy would be maintained.

I agree but also I don't really see how that actually would be able to harm you. The only time I've ever met an escort I've visited out there in the streets was the next day after I've met this nice Estonian girl. I am strolling the streets hand in hand with the lady of the day and she walks towards us with her twin sister. Even if I'd wanted to say Hi! I couldn't have because I didn't know which one she was and both of them just looked straight through me with not a hint of recognition. The lady holding my hand actually commented "those twins are really beautiful" to which I was smart enough to answer "Who? Oh, I didn't even notice".

Still this day I think that from my part that answer was a really good one; especially as my brain was busy planning and calculating how to arrange a meeting with both of them together.

 

[Simonka]

Thanks for the answers. The question is actually not that hypothetical, if you do a background search on the culprits there are receipts on Twitter or online forums.
Of course, the people I’ve been talking about are based in USA therefore their screening requirements are more strict. You can’t just meet them without giving them your employment verification.

This really sucks, because a huge percentage of escorts require screening information from their clients only to protect themselves..... from murder, rape etc.

Also please don’t derail: this is not a “let’s bash escorts/women while we have the chance” thread. I’m simply expressing shock over how a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of the community. There are many women who treat each other with respect and mind their own business. SW are not a monoculture and each have their unique approach to the business & ethics. (..and not all are women!)

 

[warubuta]

Thanks for the answers. The question is actually not that hypothetical, if you do a background search on the culprits there are receipts on Twitter or online forums.
Of course, the people I’ve been talking about are based in USA therefore their screening requirements are more strict. You can’t just meet them without giving them your employment verification.

This really sucks, because a huge percentage of escorts require screening information from their clients only to protect themselves..... from murder, rape etc.

Also please don’t derail: this is not a “let’s bash escorts/women while we have the chance” thread. I’m simply expressing shock over how a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of the community. There are many women who treat each other with respect and mind their own business. SW are not a monoculture and each have their unique approach to the business & ethics. (..and not all are women!)

I make a conscious effort to bash everyone indiscriminately and without predjudice to gender, race, occupation or species. But its definitely OK by me though if you want to feel especially bashed.

I am a Bashful Buta

 

[Acid Burn]

I agree but also I don't really see how that actually would be able to harm you

I am strolling the streets hand in hand with the lady of the day and she walks towards us with her twin sister.
.
.
both of them just looked straight through me with not a hint of recognition.

Looking through you without a hint of recognition sounds good as that would be the situation where harm could be had. Encountering while with someone else. Maybe flashing a quick smile would be innocent enough but what if the one sessioned with came up to you and your girl saying “hey Mikey, I can’t stop thinking about The Beautiful One since our time together last night...”

Granted, this could happen with any female bedded currently but the p4p providers I tend to go for are a notch above than what I normally get in non-p4p settings so trusting discretion will be kept is a must as spinning how I know a kyaba looking girl would be much harder than making up a story about a plainer looking girl.

 

[RandomTokyoGuy]

Thanks for the answers. The question is actually not that hypothetical, if you do a background search on the culprits there are receipts on Twitter or online forums.
Of course, the people I’ve been talking about are based in USA therefore their screening requirements are more strict. You can’t just meet them without giving them your employment verification.

This really sucks, because a huge percentage of escorts require screening information from their clients only to protect themselves..... from murder, rape etc.

You really believe that you can identify someone, who anonymously wants to out you? You must have connections to the NSA or something... Of course it's possible that someone is careless or drops caution in a vengeful moment, but you are talking about high-end escorts here, who you have to expect not to completely dull.

I doubt a few bad apples ruin everything for the rest of you. People who have been willing to go through this sort of verification probably are still willing. Pretty sure it's not a first time that an escort leaked information or even tried to extort a client. It's mainly a US problem anyways. At least in Europe this practice is not very common.

 

[Simonka]

You really believe that you can identify someone, who anonymously wants to out you? You must have connections to the NSA or something...

No I don’t. There was actually a USA girl who did carelessly text people doxxing others. After many people came out with the receipts, her intentions were exposed.

I don’t remember claiming to believe I can identify someone who anonymously wants to out me. (Unless he/she leaks info that could help me identify them) Not sure how you came to this conclusion. I obviously don’t want to give out way too much information in order to protect the identity of those who have been doxxed, and I imagined people could put two and two together to understand the complicated nature of the situation.

No, I don’t have connections to the NSA.

 

[TheScientist]

I’m simply expressing shock over how a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of the community.

Maybe its because I'm a bit older and a) a bit cynical by nature c) I've earned my bread by that nature that I advise you not to be shocked at all. There was some wisdom in Buta's words above regarding the nature of the industry, due to the fact that it exists at best in legal gray zones and at worst in a state of illegality. Having to reveal identity creates a severe risk(1) on the client side, probably statistically a higher level of risk(1) than to the provider.

As a client, I not only have to trust that the provider won't choose to reveal my identity but also I have to trust that the provider has reasonably secure records storage methods. In 2020 it is not unreasonable to assume that any copies of identity documents will be stored on a computer. Is the data reliably encrypted? Does the provider respect GDPR type "forget me" requests? Are they reliable about wiping all storage before recycling or trashing a PC? Thats just a start. There are so many ways that a client list with identity documents can be seen by a third party.

If someone gets a hold of a provider's client list with identity documents there is all sorts of things that can be done with such a list which can have consequences(2) resulting in divorce, blackmail, financial ruin, complete loss of reputation, attention in the press (which thanks to the Internet is never forgotten) and so on.

On the provider side, loss of reputation based on revealed identity can certainly create significant impact in the case where the provider has a "day job" of some profession where reputation matters. It is difficult to get a handle on the size of that segment of the total number of sex workers However based on available statistics regarding violence against sex workers, revealed identity of either party is an insignificant causal factor. Almost all violence against sex workers occurs at the "low end" of the profession where proof of identity does not factor into the transaction.

1. Risk in the strict financial definition which is also used by folks who deal with "genuinely bad shit" where risk = potential loss * likelihood for a specific event.
2. For each of these consequences (specific events) a risk calculation occurs.

 

[Maxblack]

Tldr: Shitty people are shitty. Every industry. Every country. Best to avoid them but they'll never disappear.

 

[warubuta]

Tldr: Shitty people are shitty. Every industry. Every country. Best to avoid them but they'll never disappear.

You can be PC about it if you must, but most people would agree that some occupations seem to attract more “shitty” people than others. There are untrustworthy people everywhere but they are not spread evenly as you imply. Occupations that are illegal or deemed to be immoral are more likely to attract untrustworthy people. There are exceptions and I am not bashing anyone or any profession. Except for touts in Shinjuku.

 

[RandomTokyoGuy]

No I don’t. There was actually a USA girl who did carelessly text people doxxing others. After many people came out with the receipts, her intentions were exposed.

I don’t remember claiming to believe I can identify someone who anonymously wants to out me. (Unless he/she leaks info that could help me identify them) Not sure how you came to this conclusion. I obviously don’t want to give out way too much information in order to protect the identity of those who have been doxxed, and I imagined people could put two and two together to understand the complicated nature of the situation.

No, I don’t have connections to the NSA.

Maybe we misunderstood each other. It is surely possible to identify a culprit who is careless and very likely it won't be possible if the culprit takes precautions to stay anonymous. h
for a client to run into a provider who he knows has outed others before is mostly hypothetical, unless the provider makes this information very obvious. Maybe some people here run some very in-depth background checks, but I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't find out.