Connectedness, Brinksmanship, And The Art Of The Amorous Escortee

[kitsune]

I've been meaning to start this thread for some time. This could well be a social science discussion, but since we are all much too busy hobbying, I'll try to keep it a little more informal

I wasn't sure where to put this. It is about escorts, but it's not a review. It's sort of about relationships, but it's not about dating, or at least not in the classic sense. I guess the mods can move this if there is a more appropriate place for it.

We've recently had a brief, spirited debate (in the escort reviews forum) about what is (or should be?) going on between the escort and the escortee. To some, it is raw sex, with little if any personal implications. To others, it can be highly personal. And to yet others, it is somewhere in between, depending on many factors.

The number of hits on the universe/kousai/sb thread illustrates that some people are at least interested in reading about people who want more than just sex. And, given the number of posters who say they are availing themselves of that particular option, it seems that some really do want deeper escort-like relationships. Some seem to be looking for a deeper *connection*.

Clearly, different people are looking for different things. It's all good. There is no right and wrong here. There is only human diversity. But for this discussion, I want to focus on the more personal experiences, the more connected experiences, and talk about some of the implications and benefits.

In a relationship, sex can be many things, but usually, and especially early in the relationship, it serves to simultaneously express and intensify the emotional bond between 2 people. It's complex, but there is definitely chemistry involved, both within us (neurochemicals that make us feel high, "in love", giddy, attached, emotional, etc.) and between us (pheremones, things that trigger our neurochemical responses). That chemistry dramatically impacts the quality of our experience, and it draws us closer to the one we are engaging with.

Obviously, it is possible to have sex without any of this. Masturbation is the extreme example, but even, for example, in a happy ending massage parlor with no physical intimacy, there is likely little in the way of connection, chemistry, etc. It is just an orgasm, a lonely, detached, surge of bioenergy that has little or nothing to do with human connectedness. In fact, if she is not happy (I've had one Shinjuku experience like this, very distasteful), it is the polar opposite of connectedness. You can't wait to get it over with. Neither can she.

And you can certainly have various levels of disconnect in experiences with escorts, ranging from distant and mechanical to an intensely erotic, yet surprisingly impersonal "workout". But on the other end of the spectrum, you can have a very intimate exchange, one in which you "click", in which you "connect", one from which you derive some of the same sorts of responses as you would in a more conventional relationship. And from these, confusing feelings may arise, feelings very much like those you would experience with someone you are "in love" with. And therein lies the rub. Because this is nothing like love. Is it?

For me, the best sex is with someone I feel really good about/toward, and who feels similarly toward me. The absolute best is with someone I am in love *with* (notice the "two-wayedness" of that statement). And for me, the best escort experience is one that approximates, that closely mimics the above. Clearly, the escort experience is different than love, but there are some of the same interpersonal dynamics, and there are (possibly, when circumstances are right) some of the same chemical reactions/responses. And there are some of the same benefits in terms of the good feelings and connectedness that result.

I'm really careful to keep a balanced outlook, to recognize the differences between these sorts of chemical/emotional responses and love. I know it's risky, but I still allow myself to experience these (carefully managed, yet) challenging and conflicting feelings, because the pay off is so high. The feeling is soooo good, so much more powerful than those disconnected experiences I mentioned above!

But, this is definitely a slippery slope. Emotion is irrational, and emotional attachment to an escort is even *more* irrational. Yet, for me, the best sex involves emotion, feelings of fondness, feelings of closeness, feelings of tenderness. Feelings of attachment. It's an intricate and delicate balance. Not for the faint of heart.

I think of it is as walking carefully on the slippery, icy edge of a steep, jagged slope. If you are not *really* careful, you will slip, you will fall, and you may be ripped and shredded as you somersault out of control down that brutal and unforgiving rocky face. If you are fortunate, you will catch yourself before you fall too far, and your aching emotional wounds will serve to remind you to take care, to tread carefully, to be intensely mindful. Or to back away from the edge entirely. If you are not so lucky, and you don't catch yourself ...well, I don't know. This hasn't happened to me. But I don't think it would be pretty.

But, speaking as one who knows firsthand: if you *are* careful, if you *do* maintain your balance, the views from the edge are stunning! The experience, there at the brink of emotion, at the edge of attachment, is nothing short of amazing. But I can quit anytime

 

[Zaphod222]

I think I am basically in your camp on this, but not as far out as you. Some of your reviews read like love letters... it really sounds sometimes as if you slipped over the edge.

 

[kitsune]

Dude, you hand out criticism more freely than almost anyone I've ever met. Luckily, this has no impact on the quality of my experience, but I gotta think it's impacting yours. Just sayin.

As for slipping over the edge, it should be clear from what I say above that I definitely have, though I recovered quickly. Actually, it's happened to me a couple of times. If it hadn't, I couldn't speak so authoritatively. But it was probably not the times you think (i.e. when I reviewed Sayuri, and maybe Eri? It wasn't those.) In fact, my experience with and review of Sayuri were part of an awakening, a realization of much of what I say above (thanks, Sayuri!).

My point is exactly this: those feelings and experiences, though they may sometimes accompany love, are distinct from it. And they are there for the taking, for the experiencing, for the sharing, if you can maintain the proper balance. It won't happen with every girl, and it may not happen with the same girl every time, but there is the potential. So amazing!

 

[Wwanderer]

@kitsune

Thanks for raising a very interesting topic with an excellent IP. When I first started to read it, I thought that I'd have a great deal to say in reply, but it turns out that you've already made many of the points I might have, and for the moment, I'd like to add only one thought...but one that I think is *very* important:

Namely, it is essential imo to be aware and sensitive to the feelings/attitudes of the escort in question toward "brinkmanship". Some escorts are fine with it, but many others (the large majority I suspect) would very much prefer to avoid those sorts of interactions with clients. The reasons are pretty obvious; if there is a "slip and fall", as you put it, she can end up in a wide variety of awkward, unpleasant to even dangerous situations...varying from the ordinary human feelings of regret when you know you have caused someone else emotional pain (even if it isn't your fault) up to acquiring jealous, angry and potentially dangerous stalker types. And, though much more rare, it does happen sometimes that she can be pulled over the edge and fall down "that brutal and unforgiving rocky face" (nice metaphors!) with you.

In other words, imo you have to be damn sure that she is comfortable selling a "brinksmanship" experience before you assume you have purchased one from her. In many ways it is providing a client with something far more personal and "sacred" than physical sex, and a woman that has no problem with the latter may have huge issues with the former.

-Ww

 

[k1234k]

She expects to be paid. She is watching the clock. She will leave when the time you paid for runs out. She doesn't want to see you again, unless you have money in your hand. She will use the same level of affection and GFE with her NEXT customer, right after you, and she will feel like running away if she sees you in a place other than a hotel room or love hotel.

If you have this in your mind before you start to play, you are able to keep your perspective. Only wealthy and powerful men are able to delude themselves continuously that any P4P provider is anything more than a P4P provider.

Use p4p to release sexual tension, practice new techniques, experience different kinds of sex with different kinds of women, and gain self-confidence. That is all it should be good for, and really that is all it is good for. Expecting more, (or projecting your true heartful feelings onto a P4P provider) is creepy for her, and expensive for you.

 

[kitsune]

@kitsune
Thanks for raising a very interesting topic with an excellent IP. When I first started to read it, I thought that I'd have a great deal to say in reply, but it turns out that you've already made many of the points I might have, and for the moment, I'd like to add only one thought...but one that I think is *very* important:
(shortened...)

-Ww

These are really good points. Before anything else, I realize now that "brinksmanship" is a poor word choice. It has an adversarial feel and negative connotations that don't actually match what I was trying to capture. Sorry for that.

What I was trying to name is the act of recognizing the limit, and intentionally not crossing that line. You might go arbitrarily close (up to the "brink"), but no further.

Also, as an aside, I'd like to emphasize that I am not in general looking for "a relationship". I choose to see (and pay) numerous escorts, rather than casually hooking up, specifically because I *don't* want a relationship. Funny, I just realized the contradiction: I want some of the *benefits* of a relationship (the sex and the feel-good interpersonal chemistry), but I don't want the emotional obligation and other side effects. And I make a point of seeing numerous escorts, rather than just one or two, to ensure that I don't get attached.

I think you are right that almost all escorts would prefer to avoid getting too personal with clients, for all the reasons you say. I also don't think that this sort of experience is one a girl could offer for sale in general, because "clicking" isn't something mechanical. It's a mutual thing that depends on many variables, as you mentioned in the other thread.

However, any girl that offers warm GFE runs the risk of evoking an emotional response in her client. I think the girl decides, based on the inter-personal chemistry, how far to go with that. What I described above isn't something I plan in advance when I book a girl; it's something that may happen (or not), depending on the circumstances. More often, it does not. But when it does... oh, man! And that's what my initial post was meant to be about, although it is clearly evolving into something a little broader and deeper.

Sadly, some guys are emotionally immature, and others are total whack jobs, and sometimes the girls have to deal with messy situations. That's why girls put safety controls in place. That's probably one of the most important services AM provides for their girls. I think the girls I've had these warm interactions with have figured out that *I'm* neither of these, and that's part of why they treat me so nicely

 

[Zaphod222]

Use p4p to release sexual tension, practice new techniques, experience different kinds of sex with different kinds of women, and gain self-confidence. That is all it should be good for, and really that is all it is good for. Expecting more, (or projecting your true heartful feelings onto a P4P provider) is creepy for her, and expensive for you.

So you don´t believe at all in the "clicking" that is often mentioned here? For you, any piece of well-shaped protoplasm is OK, as long as it is alive and has all the right bits? That would be the other extreme point of view.

For me, that does not work. I click with some people, and don´t with others. That is why e.g. the Chinese slam-bang FS places don´t do it for me. And the clicking is important for me. So I am somewhere in the middle on this.

 

[User#3673]

I've been meaning to start this thread for some time. This could well be a social science discussion, but since we are all much too busy hobbying, I'll try to keep it a little more informal

I wasn't sure where to put this. It is about escorts, but it's not a review. It's sort of about relationships, but it's not about dating, or at least not in the classic sense. I guess the mods can move this if there is a more appropriate place for it.

We've recently had a brief, spirited debate (in the escort reviews forum) about what is (or should be?) going on between the escort and the escortee. To some, it is raw sex, with little if any personal implications. To others, it can be highly personal. And to yet others, it is somewhere in between, depending on many factors.

The number of hits on the universe/kousai/sb thread illustrates that some people are at least interested in reading about people who want more than just sex. And, given the number of posters who say they are availing themselves of that particular option, it seems that some really do want deeper escort-like relationships. Some seem to be looking for a deeper *connection*.

Clearly, different people are looking for different things. It's all good. There is no right and wrong here. There is only human diversity. But for this discussion, I want to focus on the more personal experiences, the more connected experiences, and talk about some of the implications and benefits.

In a relationship, sex can be many things, but usually, and especially early in the relationship, it serves to simultaneously express and intensify the emotional bond between 2 people. It's complex, but there is definitely chemistry involved, both within us (neurochemicals that make us feel high, "in love", giddy, attached, emotional, etc.) and between us (pheremones, things that trigger our neurochemical responses). That chemistry dramatically impacts the quality of our experience, and it draws us closer to the one we are engaging with.

Obviously, it is possible to have sex without any of this. Masturbation is the extreme example, but even, for example, in a happy ending massage parlor with no physical intimacy, there is likely little in the way of connection, chemistry, etc. It is just an orgasm, a lonely, detached, surge of bioenergy that has little or nothing to do with human connectedness. In fact, if she is not happy (I've had one Shinjuku experience like this, very distasteful), it is the polar opposite of connectedness. You can't wait to get it over with. Neither can she.

And you can certainly have various levels of disconnect in experiences with escorts, ranging from distant and mechanical to an intensely erotic, yet surprisingly impersonal "workout". But on the other end of the spectrum, you can have a very intimate exchange, one in which you "click", in which you "connect", one from which you derive some of the same sorts of responses as you would in a more conventional relationship. And from these, confusing feelings may arise, feelings very much like those you would experience with someone you are "in love" with. And therein lies the rub. Because this is nothing like love. Is it?

For me, the best sex is with someone I feel really good about/toward, and who feels similarly toward me. The absolute best is with someone I am in love *with* (notice the "two-wayedness" of that statement). And for me, the best escort experience is one that approximates, that closely mimics the above. Clearly, the escort experience is different than love, but there are some of the same interpersonal dynamics, and there are (possibly, when circumstances are right) some of the same chemical reactions/responses. And there are some of the same benefits in terms of the good feelings and connectedness that result.

I'm really careful to keep a balanced outlook, to recognize the differences between these sorts of chemical/emotional responses and love. I know it's risky, but I still allow myself to experience these (carefully managed, yet) challenging and conflicting feelings, because the pay off is so high. The feeling is soooo good, so much more powerful than those disconnected experiences I mentioned above!

But, this is definitely a slippery slope. Emotion is irrational, and emotional attachment to an escort is even *more* irrational. Yet, for me, the best sex involves emotion, feelings of fondness, feelings of closeness, feelings of tenderness. Feelings of attachment. It's an intricate and delicate balance. Not for the faint of heart.

I think of it is as walking carefully on the slippery, icy edge of a steep, jagged slope. If you are not *really* careful, you will slip, you will fall, and you may be ripped and shredded as you somersault out of control down that brutal and unforgiving rocky face. If you are fortunate, you will catch yourself before you fall too far, and your aching emotional wounds will serve to remind you to take care, to tread carefully, to be intensely mindful. Or to back away from the edge entirely. If you are not so lucky, and you don't catch yourself ...well, I don't know. This hasn't happened to me. But I don't think it would be pretty.

But, speaking as one who knows firsthand: if you *are* careful, if you *do* maintain your balance, the views from the edge are stunning! The experience, there at the brink of emotion, at the edge of attachment, is nothing short of amazing. But I can quit anytime

Kitsune, what a great, well thought out, philosophical post! Keep them coming mate!

 

[User#3673]

Kitsune this is the key to what you are talking about I feel (though you say it as an aside):

You said:

"Also, as an aside, I'd like to emphasize that I am not in general looking for "a relationship". I choose to see (and pay) numerous escorts, rather than casually hooking up, specifically because I *don't* want a relationship. Funny, I just realized the contradiction: I want some of the *benefits* of a relationship (the sex and the feel-good interpersonal chemistry), but I don't want the emotional obligation and other side effects. And I make a point of seeing numerous escorts, rather than just one or two, to ensure that I don't get attached."

I think to avoid going down that slope big time, you need to not see the same escorts all the time, and I would say it may well go for them too (at times). Especially if they are from a poor country. We can represent a fantasy too.

A couple of friends have had the Thai escort in tears after spending some days together, and that was definitely not their intention.

I think more often than not, it is the client that can get too attached. But occasionally a provider can as well, if she lets her emotions go. Hence, many do not allow, for example - kissing. It is too intimate. She needs to keep some separation from you, mostly for you, but partly for her too.

I have felt at times that even some of the ladies at Asian Feeling were getting too attached, or hopeful. (Or maybe they were great actresses.) But if it was an act, it backfired as I stopped asking for them. One seemed angry that I hadn`t gotten a massage from her that month. She scared me off.
"Where have you been?!" She had asked harshly.

If you happen to be her "type," or she, "Your type," you have to be very careful. At Asian Feeling, with certain providers, it sometimes became much more than just a massage, with her getting totally nude and allowing full access to all her erotic places. Everything short of full penetration.
It was great! But it was powerful too.

My friend barely talks to any providers, he just goes and gets it done and he is happy with that. I like to talk more. With that the relationship is warmer, but it is also more dangerous. You don`t want it getting too intimate.

This is a game, and we want it to be fun. But use it for the variety. Don`t get attached. Variety is the answer I think. And if you find yourself fantasizing about your escort of the month, stop! Because it is a fantasy. Sex is a powerful drive as we all know, but one we must be careful with.

But I will say that if you are fantasizing about your escort of the month, and you are dreaming of her as your girlfriend, then maybe it is time to take the plunge and find that girlfriend.

or

Variety is the spice of mongering?

 

[TheDutchElm]

K1234k, I think you nailed it, but you should have gone a bit deeper to avoid what Zaphod is criticizing you for. The boundary of involvement *extends* to the emotional "connectedness" being described. High paid escorts are paid highly because they are good at more than stroking your ego in bed. You pay them, they pretend you're interesting. If you're *actually* interesting, yahtzee for her: but she's keeping the dough. After all, the next socially adroit guy at 8pm only booked one hour of fascinating banter and a girl's got needs, ya know?

Some people can and do have better chat than others. You can certainly be socially compatible with someone you wouldn't have met in any other circumstances because you had a wad of cash in your hand. IF (a big if) a girl likes you enough to hang out with you outside her professional capacity (and that doesn't have to be a committed relationship or even one with obligation, e.g.- FWB) she will do so, and at her own initiative. In the meantime, your connectedness lasts only as long as your wallet is full. That's a perfectly legitimate state of affairs and there's no reason to believe that you cannot build up a personal understanding of each other over time. But until you start getting a discount or free-time, you run a great risk of tipping into some disturbing mind space by assuming more legitimacy to social interactions with an escort than you have evidence to support.

If she keeps taking your money, Occam's Razor should lead you to an inescapable conclusion: that a feeling of "deep connection" is more likely to be a misinterpreted byproduct of a massive flux of cash and role playing. There's absolutely a sliding scale of sincere interest that can develop over time (if you're legitimately charming, maybe on the first encounter, though she'd never tell you that), but I tend to cynically favor the end of that scale labelled "sh*tloads of cash" over the side called "sincere heartfelt connectedness" for the sole reason that, unless you are in an exclusive sugar relationship (and how would you know?), you're not the only man in her life. Being "on" as they say, expends a lot of emotional capital.

You pay her for her attention and services, yes. But as the saying goes, you also pay her to leave. If you keep in mind that, when time is up, she's expecting to leave not only physically but also mentally, you have a healthy mental boundary on that relationship. Otherwise you're probably playing with fire.

 

[k1234k]

@TheDutchElm YES, YES, and YES. You nailed exactly the point I was trying to make. At the end of the day, if she leaves with your money in her purse, for your own sanity, be clear about what the roles are, and what just happened.

You are a John.

She is a .

You just paid for sex.

There's plenty of room for enjoyment within that sphere, but if you ever lose sight of those 3 points, your soul can be lost.

 

[Zaphod222]

@
You are a John.
She is a .
You just paid for sex.

There's plenty of room for enjoyment within that sphere, but if you ever lose sight of those 3 points, your soul can be lost.

I think the world has more shades of grey than that. Is your world-view really that simple? Does any woman who makes a compensation arrangement with you a ""? Automatically? Really?

By the same token, was Jaquelin Onassis a ? Princess Di? George Soros stunning Brazilian girlfriend? Really?

 

[TheDutchElm]

No, that is not what he's saying at all. The difference is that with a working girl, that quid pro quo arrangement is *explicit* and understood to be non-exclusive by nature. In many ways, that makes it far more honest than any of the examples you listed. But it also makes it that much more of a boundary you should expect and respect.*Especially* when you know full well that your time together is not a beautiful unique snowflake of sincere soulful connectedness- she has other clients who enjoy similar levels of no doubt excellent service. It's simply the reality that makes truly feeling you have a "deep connection" with a working girl the emotional equivalent of putting your hand into the world's sexiest wood-chipper.

Nobody is saying you have to constantly slap down those good feelings when a truly great escort is making you feel special. That's WHY we pay them. But don't swim so far out to sea that you can't get back to shore.

 

[Zaphod222]

Nobody is saying you have to constantly slap down those good feelings when a truly great escort is making you feel special. That's WHY we pay them. But don't swim so far out to sea that you can't get back to shore.

I like a financial agreement! I think it is honest. I just don´t like these hard categories like john and . For example, some years back, I met a girl from a health delivery shop who I totally clicked with. We exchanged e-mail addresses, and I started seeing her outside the business. I went to her house, she came to mine. She was a psychology student at Waseda, taking an occasional job from the agency to pay her tuition. I sometimes hired her to take care of my youngest kid; so the relationship became a bit like having sex with the babysitter (another fetish for some out there, I guess, LOL). She was very sexy and very intelligent, and we totally clicked with each other. A no point ever was there ever any uncertainty or deception about the relationship: it was quid-pro-quo, but of course not bound to any agency rates and a ticking clock.

Now was I a "John" during that time and she a ""? I´d like to think not, not after a while. All I am saying is life is more complex than these simple labels.

 

[TheDutchElm]

You are a John.

She is a .

You just paid for sex.

I think Zaphod deserves this point. This is simplifying too much. But in a way, that just further makes the point. Look at Japanese hostess clubs and girl's bars. It's still paying for a girl to entertain you.

There's a very important reason it's called GF...*E*. ;-)

 

[Wwanderer]

I'm totally with Zaph on this one. Imo and experience, p4p interactions are not nearly so simple and sharply defined as some in this thread are claiming. There are plenty of complexities of feeling and motivation and quality of experience on both sides of the bed. Perhaps some escorts are as indifferent to their clients as individuals as k1234k and TDE describe, with totally financial motivations and no other involvement or cares at all, but I'm pretty sure they are a minority, especially among upscale escorts. Put simply, real world escorts are more fond of and feel more connection/companionship with some clients than others, and being only human, they do not treat the clients they like in exactly the same way they treat the ones they dislike just because both are paying them. Doesn't that sound a lot more like the behavior of a real person than the stark image of some sort of emotionless and indifferent sex robot model you guys paint?

I think escorting is more like being a medical professional, a doctor or a nurse, in emotional terms; the fact that they are being paid to treat the sick or injured does not imply that they care nothing at all about their patients as people or that they have no reactions to them as individuals.

I also disagree with DTE's repeated implication that a real or deep connection can only exist in an exclusive relationship; open relationships are as real as exclusive ones, and many people are capable of having very strong connections with multiple partners.

Of course none of this is to say that the connection between an escort and her customer that involves some real affection or chemistry or clicking or connection or whatever you want to call it is the same as a deep romantic relationship; it is only to say that it can be, and often is, some sort of real and significant human interaction between two individuals.

-Ww

 

[k1234k]

Within the bubble of prostitution, yes there can be wonderful and caring providers. I am not contesting that point.

But that is within the bubble.

So how does one enter this bubble? When you agree on pre-defined payment for a pre-defined time, for pre-defined, mutually agreed sexual actions.

This is the very definition of what a and a john are, and if those terms sting, then some part of your mind is in denial.

There's no shame in feeling the sting and being in denial. Nor is there any shame in being a john or a . In fact it's good business for the ladies, good business for this website, which compiles all this data together, and it feels fantastic.

But if I was your best friend, and I heard you talk glowingly about your girlfriend (who happens to be a ), I'd buy you a beer, and ask you 'Are you really comfortable at having to hand an envelope stuffed with cash to the love of your life every night? If you've got the unlimited cash, and you're happy, then go for it, but I just worry that you are headed for a crushing emotional blow. '

 

[Zaphod222]

But that is within the bubble.
So how does one enter this bubble? When you agree on pre-defined payment for a pre-defined time, for pre-defined, mutually agreed sexual actions.

Actually, with that definition, you are shooting yourself in the foot, because outside the world of Japanese DH shops where you buy every minor detailed "action" separately, the actions are usually not all that pedantically pre-defined.

And if you expand your definition to everything that is compensated ins some way or another, your world is full of "hookers" and "johns", including a lot of married couples. Because there is always some sort of give and take out there.
Read some Greek mythology sometime, like the story of Lysistrata...

 

[TheDutchElm]

I have extensive experience with open relationships and that is not at all what I meant to imply. The exchange of tangible, objective value (be it money, favors, gifts, etc) for services rendered (be they emotional, physical, spiritual, etc) sets the p4p relationship in a class of relationship that is separated quite a bit from an open relationship based solely on companionate or romantic interest.

I believe I also said there's a sliding scale of involvement in p4p and I stand by that. I can also recognize, based on Zaphod and Wwanderer's thoughful replies, that what some might term a "legitimate" relationship usually can't help but involve some amount of tangible compensation as well. Baby don't want no poor man! The thing to remember (and why I think kitsune's "emotional edging" idea is an ill-advised one, tempting though it may be) is that these two types of relationships, while they both involve elements of each other, reside on opposite sides of the scale I described earlier. If you treat either one like the other, you're going to get your heart broken badly and often.

 

[TheDutchElm]

Put simply, real world escorts are more fond of and feel more connection/companionship with some clients than others, and being only human, they do not treat the clients they like in exactly the same way they treat the ones they dislike just because both are paying them.

While this may be the case for some providers, it is a measure of a good escort to make you FEEL this is the case whether or not it actually is. If one can accept that the odds are more than slightly against you, then you can suspend reality for the comforts of appearance. But if you try to pull back the veil to legitimize that felt connection, you're unlikely to make it out in good shape. If a particular client disagrees and feel that *his* relationship with an escort isn't like all the other clients, I'd like to see what happens if he offered to pay less for her time because there's a perception of reciprocal satisfaction not based on money or material compensation. "Chilling effect" seems like a slight understatement for the most *probable* result.

Of course, I won't deny this has happened. I have heard lovely stories of people coming to amicable and even sincerely intimate understandings with working girls. Even marrying them and sticking together! But setting out with that as a goal seems a fools errand when the nature of the relationship, by definition, is against you.

 

[Zaphod222]

I have extensive experience with open relationships and that is not at all what I meant to imply. The exchange of tangible, objective value (be it money, favors, gifts, etc) for services rendered (be they emotional, physical, spiritual, etc) sets the p4p relationship in a class of relationship that is separated quite a bit from an open relationship based solely on companionate or romantic interest.

Just btw, do you realize that such "open relationship based solely on companionate or romantic interest" are really a quite new and Western invention? For most history, a marriage was an social/financial/tribal arrangement, and still is so in most parts of the world. And even here I wonder how many of those are 100% pure and undiluted by other factors.

Reminds me of that quib: What is the most potent female aphrodisiac?............................................................................................................. ...................................................... white Mercedes Slc convertible

 

[Wwanderer]

This discussion has gotten sufficiently complicated and tangled that I'm going to be very pedantic and explicitly separate my responses to different parts and points of what others, mostly k1234k and TDE, have said. In fact, I think I'll just number them:

1 - I agree and certainly acknowledge the danger of "a crushing emotional blow" or of getting "your heart broken badly and often" for mongers (and occasionally even escorts) who mistake commercial sex interactions and their pleasures, physical and emotional, for conventional np4p romance. It happens not infrequently and causes no end of pain and trouble for all concerned, definitely including the escort as I emphasized in my first post in this thread...which is why most escorts prefer to stay away from "brinkmanship". It is a particular hazard when the guy is relatively inexperienced with women and romantic relationships.

2 - Note that kitsune was very clear and explicit that he was NOT talking about having or seeking romance in p4p situations in his IP. The fact that we are now discussing it is due to thread drift and to others making the leap from the "brinksmanship" (not an ideal word for it, I agree, but we need to call it something, and I don't have a better suggestiosn at the moment) to delusions of romance in the p4p world.

3 - I respectfully (but very much) disagree with k1234's and TDE's advice or system for dealing with the danger they correctly point out as a serious one. Focusing on perceptions of p4p interactions along lines such as

You are a John. She is a . You just paid for sex.

or

She expects to be paid. She is watching the clock. She will leave when the time you paid for runs out. She doesn't want to see you again, unless you have money in your hand. She will use the same level of affection and GFE with her NEXT customer, right after you, and she will feel like running away if she sees you in a place other than a hotel room or love hotel.

or

truly feeling you have a "deep connection" with a working girl the emotional equivalent of putting your hand into the world's sexiest wood-chipper.

is a HUGE, though very common, mistake imo. It may indeed be a way of protecting oneself from the danger of delusions of romance in p4p (see #1 above), but it also has other consequences, very negative ones. For one, it is quite insulting to your p4p partner and introduces a negative/hostile element into your interactions with her at a deep level. For another, our expectations become biases of perception and reaction that are often self-fulfilling (in many contexts of life, especially in interactions with other people), as is well known of course. In other words, if you firmly believe *in advance* that "She doesn't want to see you again, unless you have money in your hand" etc, it is MUCH more likely to be(come) true than if you enter the interaction with an open mind. In other words, in my opinion, the view of p4p you (k12134k and TDE) are suggesting degrades the quality and possibilities of p4p experiences for both the customer and the escort.

4 - My point might be clearer or more persuasive if you think of some other personal service for which people are paid instead of sex work. I mentioned the medical analogy already. Another good one is teaching. Teachers, elementary school teachers say, get paid for educating and taking care of their students and wouldn't do it for free. And some teachers do indeed see their work as nothing more than a job and have no particular feeling for the students, may even dislike them and not want to have anything to do with them except when they are being paid to do so. However, fixing your mind on the idea that your particular teacher...or your child's particular teacher...feels that way about his/her students is both disrespectful and likely to be counterproductive to a getting the best education and care that teacher is capable of providing.

5 - Basically I am saying that escorts are people, and their work is just another service profession. Your p4p partner is with you because you are paying her, and it is important to understand that, but at the same time you would be well advised (imo) to be no less open to connections with her outside the basic commercial transaction that brings you together than you are with your doctor, nurse, teacher, attorney, accountant, food server, therapist etc. In other words, I don't think the fact that money is changing hands is *that* important; you should be aware of it, but you should still regard your interaction with a p4p partner as one with a full human being, i.e., one with all of the possibilities and potential of your interactions with anyone else. To do anything else is to impose needless preconceptions and boundaries/constraints on both her and yourself. Anyway, that is my experienced-based opinion.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Put simply, real world escorts are more fond of and feel more connection/companionship with some clients than others, and being only human, they do not treat the clients they like in exactly the same way they treat the ones they dislike just because both are paying them.

While this may be the case for some providers, ...

I'm reasonably sure that it is the case for a very large majority of providers. Note that I am not saying that most providers are in love with one or more of their customers; that is very rare. However, nearly all escorts are just like nearly all teachers, doctors and attorneys who like some of their students, patients and clients more than others and consequently treat them a *bit* differently, while delivering the same basic services in a professional manner to all. It is just the way human beings are.

-Ww

 

[TheDutchElm]

"open relationship based solely on companionate or romantic interest" are really a quite new and Western invention?

I'm entirely aware. It's what we're dealing with in *this* society that is relevant. We're talking here about normal in the sense of "normative", as in not our original environment of adaptedness. Saying that it used to be another way and that means it should be that way is invoking the naturalistic fallacy.

Most escorts don't want a sincerely involved relationship with you. If they did, you wouldn't have to pay them (or at least not so much). Sorry if I'm bursting any bubbles here. Find one if you can. Don't expect it.

And even here I wonder how many of those are 100% pure and undiluted by other factors.

I believe I covered this in my last response. I agree with your assessment that no relationship is entirely free of this dynamic. It is a sliding scale between emotionless-role-play-with-sex-for-cash and intimate fulfillment without material benefit. While both extremes may be rare, any given p4p encounter will decidedly favor the former and I dare say it's a bit of a self-deception to claim otherwise, given the requirement to fork over cash before anything happens. The pretenses of such a situation are nil, which, it must be said, can't be claimed about the typical hypocritical trophy spouse or gold digger.

 

[Wwanderer]

Trying to get back to kitsune's IP topic and the issue I raised in my first post in this thread, my advice to any guy who wants to get out of the box/script of conventional prostitution and explore what else is possible in the p4p world is simple: Get thee to the sugar bowl!

As I mentioned previously, a lot of escorts are uncomfortable at best with "brinkmanship", and imo at least, it is discourteous or worse to "go there" unless she is willing/happy to do so too.

However, the sugar (or "compensated dating") world is home to women (and men) with a huge range of ideas and goals about what is desirable and possible; the spectrum ranges from people whose activities seem indistinguishable from ordinary prostitution as far as I can judge to ones who are hard to tell from the people on np4p dating sites such as eharmony and match.com with nearly every imaginable variation between those extremes. In short, you're much more likely to find a willing partner in brinksmanship in an SB or SD than in a conventional escort or monger.

TAG already has several threads discussing the sugar world in general and specific venues for it that are available in Tokyo. See

http://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/keijiban-japanese-contact-sites.6414/

http://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/universe-club-kousai-clubs-sugar-babies.5994/

http://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/seekingarrangement-in-tokyo.6481/

So there seems to be no need to go into the details again in this thread.

-Ww