Fomality levels based on different situations

[Zero4real]

I apologize in advance as I have seen this topic posted somewhere here before but without going into various nuanced situations. I wanted to ask in regards to various situations as I am a bit confused at some of the cultural nuances and expectations. Basically I want to know if I am speaking correctly, cause I don't want to come off as a prick but I don't want to sound like a tool either

1. Between customer and management staff

I'm aware that the customer is put on a pedestal, but if there is a clear difference in age (customer being much younger), is teinego still the most appropriate form among the other keigos?

2. Between customer and older provider

If the provider your seeing is older than you, despite the fact that you're the customer, is it expected to use various keigo forms? I'm aware this isn't the case for younger providers relative to your age (except when scheduling).

3. Dropping keigo

When dropping keigo, is it better to do it exactly upon meeting the provider? Or it better to ask?

 

[Alice]

I wouldn’t be formal to an older provider unless that’s your kink.

 

[kirayamato]

1. Between customer and management staff

I'm aware that the customer is put on a pedestal, but if there is a clear difference in age (customer being much younger), is teinego still the most appropriate form among the other keigos?

In general, nowadays the believe that "customer is god" is slowly gone. my sensei still use kudasaru once in a while but you can still be polite in casual form and add desu.

2. Between customer and older provider

If the provider your seeing is older than you, despite the fact that you're the customer, is it expected to use various keigo forms? I'm aware this isn't the case for younger providers relative to your age (except when scheduling).

not really. just treat them like friend and use tameguchi. or just teineigo until they are comfortable.

3. Dropping keigo

When dropping keigo, is it better to do it exactly upon meeting the provider? Or it better to ask?

as customer you dont need keigo. just use teineigo and you will be alright. your attitude matter more than keigo. just dont imitate anime. avoid anata, anta, omae, kimi, etc.

in short, being polite and use teineigo, and dont get offended if they dont use keigo.

 

[SealedTears]

If I contact a provider to see if they’re okay with gaijins and later a reservation, it just feels weird to start off with tameguchi because I am literally asking for a request. I will use it during the meeting and in DMs after meeting though

 

[Turkish Delite]

You're a foreigner so they don't expect you to use or understand keigo.

You will be fine with the normal です/ます forms of verbs or you can go a bit more casual with だ and dictionary forms of the verbs.

 

[SealedTears]

You're a foreigner so they don't expect you to use or understand keigo.

It’s such a weird paradox. People say foreigners aren’t expected to know keigo, but Japanese tend to teach you only keigo. The people who would not know keigo would be people who only know Japanese from anime, but those people would know how to form complete sentences anyway and only single words

 

[Tabanico]

I'm always polite just because that's how I roll. In fact, I get annoyed when my girlfriend もらっていい in restaurants. I always use 頂いてもよろしい？

But I'm sure I'm the one who comes across as weird to Japanese wait staff lol.

 

[jackoffinthebox]

I have more of a problem in that I am not as good at hearing the very polite japanese. Sadly often when I am being polite the staff will start with the keigo and I have to give the blank stare of failure

 

[Sudsy]

Japanese tend to teach you only keigo

Most schools will teach you teineigo to start with since it's the kind of default between a couple of adults who don't know each others' stations. From there usually everyone moves on to kudaketa. Almost nobody gets explicitly taught sonkeigo or kenjogo (what most people mean when they say keigo) unless they seek it out.

 

[Zero4real]

I will use it during the meeting and in DMs after meeting though

Oh ok. You mean regardless of provider's age, you go into tameguchi during the meeting?

I was wondering about just defaulting right into tameguchi the moment after exchanging pleasantries (but I always also use teneigo when scheduling though as well).

Unfortunately, I'm still quite ignorant of Japanese cultural expectations, but I just find it kind of "stiff" I guess to use teneigo forms with providers

 

[Cinnabums]

Unless you are really fluent I just say fuck it.
A decent person knows if you are sincere or not without the right grammars.

 

[Jugemu]

sonkeigo or kenjogo (what most people mean when they say keigo)

I think this is a good point to think about. In most cases, people who have learned Japanese as a foreign language are taught sonkeigo and kenjogo (itadakimasu, osshaimasu, etc.) as “keigo”, but people who grew up in Japan think of keigo as the polite “teineigo” (moraimasu, iimasu, desu, etc.). So if a provider is telling you that you don’t need to use keigo, they simply mean you can be a bit more informal and drop the desu/masu. (There’s also the factor that kudaketa kotoba and tameguchi are not always the same, but that’s another conversation.)

In general, I’d say that when you’re doing business with the shop staff, it’s best to use desu/masu every time and don’t go for honorifics like itadakimasu. “-te kudasai”/“wo kudasai” might be exceptions, but that’s just how you form formal requests. With a provider, in general you begin with polite language, but you can then bring that down a level when you get more comfortable with them. (I mean, you’re not going to say “Ikimasu! Ikimasu!” right?)

 

[Zero4real]

(I mean, you’re not going to say “Ikimasu! Ikimasu!” right?

Idk...I'm sure there's been some gaijins who've said "mairimasu!" already

 

[kirayamato]

Idk...I'm sure there's been some gaijins who've said "mairimasu!" already

or ikaseteitadakimasu ...

 

[Alice]

In general, nowadays the believe that "customer is god" is slowly gone. my sensei still use kudasaru once in a while but you can still be polite in casual form and add desu.

in my day both the male staff and ladies would kneel down on the knees for you at high end soaps 😉

 

[kirayamato]

in my day both the male staff and ladies would kneel down on the knees for you at high end soaps 😉

they still do that in y-shirt eventhough it is not high end.

 

[maikeru]

in my day both the male staff and ladies would kneel down on the knees for you at high end soaps 😉

yup

Besides shops, I notice that Japanese in general are not using keigo, especially younger generations.


Sometimes they drop also the teinei -desu/masu, while I find providers much more in control

 

[Maxblack]

I apologize in advance as I have seen this topic posted somewhere here before but without going into various nuanced situations. I wanted to ask in regards to various situations as I am a bit confused at some of the cultural nuances and expectations. Basically I want to know if I am speaking correctly, cause I don't want to come off as a prick but I don't want to sound like a tool either

1. Between customer and management staff

I'm aware that the customer is put on a pedestal, but if there is a clear difference in age (customer being much younger), is teinego still the most appropriate form among the other keigos?

2. Between customer and older provider

If the provider your seeing is older than you, despite the fact that you're the customer, is it expected to use various keigo forms? I'm aware this isn't the case for younger providers relative to your age (except when scheduling).

3. Dropping keigo

When dropping keigo, is it better to do it exactly upon meeting the provider? Or it better to ask?

Here’s the thing about Keigo (formal): if you don’t know, you’ll fuck it up.
So just don’t: stick with teinei (polite); no Japanese speaker is going to be offended if you say 食べますか instead of 召し上がりますか but they will be offended if you say 食うか

Also, secret protip: even Japanese disagree on what is “proper” formal. Entire schools of etiquette debate whether it’s correct or not to modify your own nouns with an honorific 御 when speaking to someone formally.

Legit watched two old tea masters in kimono politely but vehemently disagree on how to offer crackers to sensei:

先生、御煎餅を召し上がりますか？

先生、つまらない物でございますが、煎餅がお口に合えばと思っております。

先生は御煎餅が大変恋しくと伺っておりますが間違えないでしょうか？

拙者が誠に勝手ながら、先生に差し上げる物は煎餅しかございませんが、どうにかお許し下さいませ、、、