How To Avoid Patronizing Non-consenting Sex Workers

[DJV]

I should clarify. Despite my wording I did not intend the guidelines/suggestions I listed in my second post of the thread (or #11 posted later) as ironclad rules that every monger should always follow or anything close to being that prescriptive. Indeed, I have violated most or all of them myself more than once. Rather I meant something like, "In order to reduce the chance of patronizing a non-consenting sex-worker, *avoid* ..."

Imo it is best to pay attention to as many of these factors as is practical in a given situation and for you personal circumstances, financial and otherwise. Moreover, when you violate them, you should take particular care to use the second type of techniques after you meet her, i.e., seeing if there are any indications physical or otherwise that she is not doing the work willingly.

In the end, as with most things in life, there is no perfect formula; you have to use your own best judgment...as you are doing with the touring Russian escorts you mention I guess.

-Ww

Thanks for clarifying, it makes much lore sense to me like that.
Also I feel that keeping wide horizons in p4p brings more satisfaction, because the more diversity the better.
For instance I do like (ok, love) upscale educated well-travelled western internet-savvy independant escorts with rising rates up to a point I can't keep up
But having detailed this pattern, and no matter how unique and sexy these ladies are, it's enjoyable to meet different girls that have their world (and yours as well) go round in different ways.
That's where some different kinds of research needs to be done, and where risk of abuse is stronger.

 

[gaijinsan]

Very curious: did any of you guys ever end up in a situatiation where they had a strong feeling the girl was forced

I had a weird situation recently in Prague. I booked a session with a pretty famous ex-porn star. After our first round, she hopped in the shower, and as I walked by the bathroom to grab some water, I glanced in and noticed her sitting in the shower with a thousand-yard stare. When she got out, she started telling me about her boyfriend who had dumped her recently, and how she had just lost her job. Needless to say, I felt terrible for her and ended the session

It wasn't the more pernicious variety of coercion that this thread is directed towards, but it still left me feeling pretty bad about P4P for awhile. I think @Wwanderer's original list is a great guideline; I just wanted to add my two pennies about some of the "softer" forms of coercion in the business. We should all appreciate the somewhat rare providers who do what they do with conviction and enthusiasm.

 

[User#8628]

I think also in a regular job people have their off days that they would rather not be there and can't put much effort and entausiasm in their job. Especially after a break up, like this girl. She had better not worked but probably didn't have much choice because she just lost her job. Its sad but doesn't mean she doesn't like doing sex work in general but i understand how it ruined the session.

 

[Wwanderer]

As I mentioned in the third post of this thread, there are basically two ways (that I know) for avoiding patronizing non-consenting sex workers, ones that do not involve actually meeting a sex worker (points 1-11 listed above in two posts) and those that can work when you meet a sex worker. The latter has already been touched on briefly in these posts:

I'd say check if she looks uncomfortable or scared or has any bruises ...

I always try to chat with the girls I'm with and they seem to do it for the money or pleasure, of their own free will.

I just wanted to add a little more detail and express it as a numbered list (a preferred format for some!). Basically you just want to get as much evidence as you can and make an educated best guess about her circumstances. Things for which to look or listen include

1 - any indications of having been a victim of physical violence such as bruises, burns, scars and so forth
2 - any indications of psychological distress such as fearfulness, extreme nervousness, depression, trembling, crying, hyperventilation and so on
3 - a very bad/negative attitude about or avoidance of sexual contacts with you (the customer)
4 - "zoning out" and appearing to be putting up "mental blocks" to distance herself from the situation
5 - saying very negative things about sex work, her general situation, her life history, her goals and hopes for the future etc

In regard to #5, it is a good idea to talk to your p4p partners as much as possible (or as much as you can afford, since it takes time for which you are probably being charged) and try to draw her out a bit, get her to talk about herself and her feelings if at all possible. Obviously this will normally have to be a bit indirect. For example, you can ask her where she is from, and if it is far away, you can follow up by asking if she is going back home for the holidays or when she will next be back there or what she misses about the home country (town or whatever). If you pay attention to how she answers, not just the literal content of what she says, it can be very revealing.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Overall, between both types of methods, I think it is A LOT easier to avoid patronizing non-consenting sex workers than it is to avoid purchasing almost all consumer products that are only available to you via terrible abuses of someone along the line, such as chocolate produced in part via child slave labor.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Very curious: did any of you guys ever end up in a situatiation where they had a strong feeling the girl was forced and what did you do or imagine if that would happen, how would you react.
For example the brothel/delivery situation being more shady than imagined and the girl looking scared and having some big bruises.
Not paying would probably get her and/or you in trouble.
Having sex with her is immoral when she is so scared.
And do you contact the police about that service after?
Do you try to make her escape or something heroic (which sounds very dangerous)?

Women most likely have to get used to the situation though so wont always be bruised and scared, maybe try to make the best of it and be friendly and entausiastic in some cases. Anyway, i'd advice guys to always be respectful and careful not to hurt a girl. If you might accidently end up with a girl who is being forced but who goes with it and acts like she is into it she will probably be relieved to have a guy who at least treats her well since those mafia pimps usually put them in situations where they get a lot of guys in one day and some might hurt them.
If you expect anything of abuse please report it to the police, although its not said they'll really do something about it.

This is really an excellent and very difficult question. (Btw, I'd flirt with you a bit here, but it makes @meiji jealous! )

I have been in such situations a few times and have done different things on different occasions depending on the details. For me at least, I can't see a general answer that would always apply for every guy in all possible situations except perhaps for (at the very least) not seeing her or any other sex worker from the same shop or agency again. Surely it is best not to give those coercing her any further business.

What I have mostly done is pay her the fee and leave, making some excuse. Usually I also at least hint at the question of whether or not she wants/needs help. Mostly there is no response at all to this question, whether direct or even a hint. On three occasions I have provided requested help intended to get her out of the situation. In one case I took what now seems to me to have been an insane risk in doing so, but I was young and foolish at the time (in my late 40s ).

-Ww

 

[User#8628]

Overall, between both types of methods, I think it is A LOT easier to avoid patronizing non-consenting sex workers than it is to avoid purchasing almost all consumer products that are only available to you via terrible abuses of someone along the line, such as chocolate produced in part via child slave labor.

-Ww

Totally agree! I have a passion for fashion but i'm very concerned about the way it is produced. The thing i do about this is buying many things second hand.
With something like chocolate there are certain brands who say they produce in a fair way and with clothes too (sadly those clothes are usually not my taste).
But yea, sometimes you just cant avoid it. Most of the brands who produce unfair don't exactly know how their stuff is produced they simply take the offer for the producer who offers the lowest price and are not concerned with anything other than their profit.

You can't always recognize forced prostitution because some girls will just make the best out of it and be nice to their customers, also being scared of punishment if their customer complains. (Also girls who can escape their pimps sometimes keep working in the business by themselves a little to safe up money to go back to their homecountry so it's something they can get used to to some degree.)
And even girls who do it willingly can have off days when they look like they are not into it at all.
But generally definitely easier to recognize and not consume than chocolate.

 

[User#8628]

Also ww, earlier you said you would say some about first world women being forced not by mafia but by abusive "boyfriends", a topic i brought up earlier.

Btw also very interested in hearing your stories about the women you encountered who seemed to be forced, hope you'll tell me about it face to face soon.
I'd like to try to help them and do something back for this amazing community one day. (I know its very dangerous, and i'd probably just donate to a good organization helping victims than going to the front lines myself but anyway, do something back).

 

[Wwanderer]

With something like chocolate there are certain brands who say they produce in a fair way and with clothes too (sadly those clothes are usually not my taste).

Of course, the labels and certifications saying that a product has not involved any abused/slave labor can't always be believed unfortunately. In the link I posted in the other thread:

http://www.foodispower.org/slavery-chocolate/ (which probably ought to be in this one too)

there is a section of the article called "Are the Labels on Chocolate Meaningful?" that describes how efforts such as the Rainforest Alliance Certification have failed to eliminate child labor from the chocolate industry and how their certifications can be meaningless (despite the best efforts of some, no doubt). Very sad... Still, I think paying attention to such labels is the best a person can practically do for the most part...and just hope for the best.

But yea, sometimes you just cant avoid it. Most of the brands who produce unfair don't exactly know how their stuff is produced they simply take the offer for the producer who offers the lowest price and are not concerned with anything other than their profit.

It is a terrible and I fear ubiquitous problem. I wonder how much life in the First World would change, how much our standards of living would drop, if all abusive, exploitive and criminal (slavery) labor practices were somehow magically eliminated everywhere and always. In other words, I wonder how much we are all, mostly unknowingly and/or unwillingly, riding on the back of oppressed labor around the world. In this regard and imo, non-consensual p4p is a relatively small problem for the individual because it is so much easier to avoid than the distant and nearly invisible non-consensual labor that produces so much of what we consume.

You can't always recognize forced prostitution because some girls will just make the best out of it and be nice to their customers, also being scared of punishment if their customer complains. (Also girls who can escape their pimps sometimes keep working in the business by themselves a little to safe up money to go back to their homecountry so it's something they can get used to to some degree.)
And even girls who do it willingly can have off days when they look like they are not into it at all.
But generally definitely easier to recognize and not consume than chocolate.

I completely agree; a client can rarely be sure either way...unless she tells you a believable story of being coerced in some way (rare). So, as with chocolate and other products, you can only give it your best shot and hope. These days for the most part I stick to the first type of methods (avoiding forms and venues and types of p4p in which forced sex work is common), in part because trying to make these judgment calls is stressful and, tbh, somewhat ruins the mood and pleasure of the experience.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Also ww, earlier you said you would say some about first world women being forced not by mafia but by abusive "boyfriends", a topic i brought up earlier.

Your post mentioned the famous case of Linda Lovelace. Those not familiar with it can read a fairly balanced (I assume) account here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Lovelace

Anyway, this is the reason that @jacqueh 's suggestion of sticking to porn stars and active board users isn't perfect either, though maybe a good system.

In general I think this sort of sex work coercion, coming from an abusive bf or pimp, is much harder for a monger to avoid patronizing than the sort involving organized crime. The first type of methods isn't very useful because women can be coerced into sex work of almost any type and in any place by an individual guy to whom they are connected. So, you pretty much have to rely on the second type of method...with its various weaknesses and failure modes.

It is also difficult because it is full of "grey areas". The coercion can be very clear cut as in the Linda Lovelace case, a man beating the woman and threatening to kill her if she doesn't do what he wants. But it can also be less direct. There are, of course, lots of abusive relationships, not necessarily involving sex work at all, in which the abused person stays in the relationship willingly (though self-destructively) and tries desperately to please the abuser. This is particularly common if the abused person was also abused in childhood. If sex work is involved in such situations, the abused person may be "willingly" doing the sex work in an attempt to please the abuser, etc. As a monger/client, I'd not want to be involved at all in such situations of course, but it is probably much harder to detect, especially if the abuse is mostly or entirely psychological. A depressing but real problem...and one that is most likely not an issue in the production of consumer goods (chocolate being the example of the this discussion) to any significant degree.

Btw also very interested in hearing your stories about the women you encountered who seemed to be forced, hope you'll tell me about it face to face soon.

Of course, happy to. Just remind me. I can be forgetful as you know...and you have heard so many of my stories already, that I can't always remember which one's I've told you! Typical old guy, right?!

I'd like to try to help them and do something back for this amazing community one day. (I know its very dangerous, and i'd probably just donate to a good organization helping victims than going to the front lines myself but anyway, do something back).

To be clear, I'm not aware of any specific individual sex worker whom I suspect of being in such a situation at the moment. The cases I referred to are all years back and not all in Japan...so there are no "front lines" for me either at the moment.

Donating to a good organization is an excellent idea/approach. Does anyone reading this know of one? If so, it would be good to post about it. There might be a number of TAGers who'd like to support it.

-Ww