Is P4p A Part Of Pua/gaming?

[Wwanderer]

I may have the solution to the endless cycle of TAG PUA vs P4P wars!

I suppose you meant women met in social ways? This, I'm afraid, is also in the realm of things which PUA improves.

Pickup means improving your communication with women. Some guys want many women, some just want a girlfriend.

I use the above two quotes of @Sinapse out of context of the threads from which they come simply as an illustration of the frequent claims by PUA proponents, especially @Sinapse and @Solong (who has been absent for a while now), that PUA/gaming is nothing more than being effective and confident in communicating and interacting with women. This is what we might call the broad definition, and although the PUA proponents sometimes prefer a much narrower one (when it suits their purposes), let's go with it for the purposes of this thread.

My (very simple) point is that "being effective and confident in communicating and interacting with women", very much including women that you met only moments earlier, is EXTREMELY important in having and enjoying quality p4p experiences, especially upscale and elaborate ones.

Pretty much all experienced sex workers will say that they have tons of very nervous, awkward and uncommunicative customers who lack confidence and that delivering a satisfactory experience to such men is a huge and often impossible challenge. Many mongers will also admit that their nervousness and inability to express themselves around women is the greatest barrier to their enjoyment of p4p; this is often mentioned explicitly in TAG reviews of escorts.

So, perhaps being good at or getting better at being a monger should also be considered a part of PUA/gaming, at least under its broad definition. What do you think?

-Ww

 

[lurklurk]

I think you identified the conflict correctly in that the terms "artist" in PUA and gaming have a negative connotation to them as in being deceitful. I also fully agree in that some of the "skills" are sure to improve your experience in P4P.

I'm not so sure if it's that clear cut though which I assume you agree to a certain extent as you started a thread on it. My thoughts are that one of the skills required in PUA/gaming is being comfortable intruding into others personal space and making the person come out of their comfort zone with positive feelings.

I for one am a bit backwards in that I have no issues being confident in a social environment but much less so in a P4P interaction. The point beibg that tge lack of skills don't span across all situations. My self assessment is that in a social environment I am around people and they accept the fact that people will interact with them and ask questions and conversation. In a P4P interaction I feel as if I need to watch the questions I ask as she is likely protective of her privacy and being how difficult dealing with people in a service industry is, I always have the nagging thought in the back of my head that I don't want to make her job any harder than it is. I'm aware that this actually has the opposite effect which you mention in the thread.

I know that was a long winded "I have a problem and I don't know how to fix it" when the relevent point is I agree but with caveats.

 

[Wwanderer]

My thoughts are that one of the skills required in PUA/gaming is being comfortable intruding into others personal space and making the person come out of their comfort zone with positive feelings.

My self assessment is that in a social environment I am around people and they accept the fact that people will interact with them and ask questions and conversation. In a P4P interaction I feel as if I need to watch the questions I ask as she is likely protective of her privacy and being how difficult dealing with people in a service industry is, I always have the nagging thought in the back of my head that I don't want to make her job any harder than it is. I'm aware that this actually has the opposite effect which you mention in the thread.

That is a very valid point imo. There are some important differences that should be kept in mind. A customer asking probing questions about an escort's personal life is rarely welcome unless he is a very well established regular, and perhaps not even then. The obvious solution is to talk mostly about other topics, and if you feel you must discuss personal matters, don't ask her probing question. Instead tell her personal things about yourself and see if she responds in kind.

The terrain is even more complex and uncertain in sugar dating situations. Many, most I think, people in the sugar bowl (certainly including me) are far more comfortable revealing their personal information to a sugar partner, especially after a date or two, than people typically are in conventional p4p contexts. However, exceptions to that rule are not terribly uncommon, and I have me a few SBs who did not want their SDs to ever know their real names and other such info. So, you again need to proceed cautiously.

All that said, I think my basic point stands. A guy who is too terrified of women or intimacy to enjoy conventional dating is also likely to have a lot of frustrations, and to be frustrating to his partner, in p4p encounters. If PUA training or techniques help with one, they will help with both, although perhaps to different degrees. If I understand you correctly, you would agree at least roughly.

-Ww

 

[lurklurk]

Most definitely.

 

[4vibes]

I may have the solution to the endless cycle of TAG PUA vs P4P wars!





I use the above two quotes of @Sinapse out of context of the threads from which they come simply as an illustration of the frequent claims by PUA proponents, especially @Sinapse and @Solong (who has been absent for a while now), that PUA/gaming is nothing more than being effective and confident in communicating and interacting with women. This is what we might call the broad definition, and although the PUA proponents sometimes prefer a much narrower one (when it suits their purposes), let's go with it for the purposes of this thread.

My (very simple) point is that "being effective and confident in communicating and interacting with women", very much including women that you met only moments earlier, is EXTREMELY important in having and enjoying quality p4p experiences, especially upscale and elaborate ones.

Pretty much all experienced sex workers will say that they have tons of very nervous, awkward and uncommunicative customers who lack confidence and that delivering a satisfactory experience to such men is a huge and often impossible challenge. Many mongers will also admit that their nervousness and inability to express themselves around women is the greatest barrier to their enjoyment of p4p; this is often mentioned explicitly in TAG reviews of escorts.

So, perhaps being good at or getting better at being a monger should also be considered a part of PUA/gaming, at least under its broad definition. What do you think?

-Ww

http://jezebel.com/5448937/it-is-he...sturbing-beliefs-of-men-who-visit-prostitutes

PUA allows women to enjoy the interaction. I can't say that about P4P. Disturbing....

 

[TheWhiteBear]

http://jezebel.com/5448937/it-is-he...sturbing-beliefs-of-men-who-visit-prostitutes

PUA allows women to enjoy the interaction. I can't say that about P4P. Disturbing....

I think women can enjoy the interaction in P4P but of course that would depend on the situation, and vice versa not all women can enjoy the interaction in PUA, it just all depends on how it is done. To be honest the arguing between P4P and PUA is rather stupid, just enjoy what you do PUA could also be used during P4P situations believe it or not. Just because someone does p4p doesn't mean they can't do PUA and vice versa.

 

[lurklurk]

I think women can enjoy the interaction in P4P but of course that would depend on the situation, and vice versa not all women can enjoy the interaction in PUA, it just all depends on how it is done. To be honest the arguing between P4P and PUA is rather stupid, just enjoy what you do PUA could also be used during P4P situations believe it or not. Just because someone does p4p doesn't mean they can't do PUA and vice versa.

Well if you're going to simplify it like that......

Good way to sum it up. The trouble I have is not wanting to be the guy that agressively hits on the pretty waitress that just wants to do her job. Just thinking too much is my problem. Being a regular helps which is why I tend to stick to a single provider that I feel comfortable with.

 

[4vibes]

I think women can enjoy the interaction in P4P but of course that would depend on the situation, and vice versa not all women can enjoy the interaction in PUA, it just all depends on how it is done. To be honest the arguing between P4P and PUA is rather stupid, just enjoy what you do PUA could also be used during P4P situations believe it or not. Just because someone does p4p doesn't mean they can't do PUA and vice versa.

"Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with."

Quote from a John

I just don't know about the mind of P4P.

 

[TheWhiteBear]

"Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with."

Quote from a John

I just don't know about the mind of P4P.

 

[Sinapse]

So, perhaps being good at or getting better at being a monger should also be considered a part of PUA/gaming, at least under its broad definition. What do you think?

I would say the main difference here is that the "reward" of sex comes AFTER the monger would required to be respectful, a good communicator, etc. In other words, unless the monger is a horrible person upon brief initial examination, the transaction goes forward. The reptilian brain rewards (with orgasm) the monger, regardless of whether his behavior was good or bad. The PUA must become a good communicator BEFORE sex can happen. In other words, change for the better is necessitated in pickup, whereas in p4p it is incidental if it happen at all (and I have no doubt that in many cases it happens). I don't doubt that long term interaction with beautiful women in general has a positive effect on men and that is certainly a benefit.

But for the average guy, if he's interested mainly in sex, I would direct him to p4p. If he's interested in deeper personal change in the realm of women, to pickup. And there's nothing wrong with either.

 

[Wwanderer]

I would say the main difference here is that the "reward" of sex comes AFTER the monger would required to be respectful, a good communicator, etc. In other words, unless the monger is a horrible person upon brief initial examination, the transaction goes forward. The reptilian brain rewards (with orgasm) the monger, regardless of whether his behavior was good or bad. The PUA must become a good communicator BEFORE sex can happen. In other words, change for the better is necessitated in pickup, whereas in p4p it is incidental if it happen at all (and I have no doubt that in many cases it happens). I don't doubt that long term interaction with beautiful women in general has a positive effect on men and that is certainly a benefit.

I'm in general agreement with all of that. However the part of your post I made bold does not capture the whole story. It is true, as you say, that a monger needs to be only minimally pleasant company to be acceptable to most escorts, but if he is not comfortable enough with women, he won't be able to enjoy himself...may not be able to become or stay erect or not be able to cum or may find the whole encounter unpleasantly stressful whether or not he has an orgasm. Customers of those types are very familiar to all experienced escorts, and guys will often report/confess such problems themselves in their reviews and posts about p4p experiences. There are bunches on TAG, though I realize you probably don't much read those threads.

But for the average guy, if he's interested mainly in sex, I would direct him to p4p. If he's interested in deeper personal change in the realm of women, to pickup. And there's nothing wrong with either.

I won't particularly argue with that, but there are lots of guys who will tell you that getting some early p4p experiences under their belt was important to them personally in becoming comfortable with women and with sex. Basically p4p removes most of the fear of rejection, which is a major obstacle for many men, and lets them concentrate on other aspects of interacting with women.

In any case, my intent for this thread was not to start (yet another) discussion of whether PUA or p4p is a better choice but simply to suggest that PUA skills can be very useful in enjoying p4p and that p4p can be a way of acquiring some PUA-relevant skills. In other words, maybe the two are not so different as they are generally regarded to be on TAG...at least in some of their aspects.

-Ww

 

[Soapysoap66]

There's a simple rule that works that everyone can use, p4p and pua alike, for interacting with women and for this board.

"Don't be an asshole."

It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
Really tired of all the endless back and forth.

 

[Wwanderer]

There's a simple rule that works that everyone can use, p4p and pua alike, for interacting with women and for this board.

"Don't be an asshole."

It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

I certainly agree that this alone will take you a long way even if it isn't quite the whole story.

Really tired of all the endless back and forth.

But this bit puzzles me. Are you saying that you read material/threads of which you are "really tired"? If so, why??

-Ww

 

[Soapysoap66]

Trust me, I've stopped reading many threads because of this. It's bringing the forum down imho.

 

[Wwanderer]

Trust me, I've stopped reading many threads because of this. It's bringing the forum down imho.

Really? Surprising to me. My impression is that it is almost entirely restricted to this forum with occasionally references to the debates/discussions in threads in other forums. No?

-Ww

 

[Soapysoap66]

And your argument is that I should not read any post in this forum knowing that it will always turn into an inflamed pointless arguing back and forth thread?

Who is more the villain, the people who turn the threads into shit or me for starting to read a thread that maybe had a topic I was interested in?

 

[Wwanderer]

And your argument is that I should not read any post in this forum knowing that it will always turn into an inflamed pointless arguing back and forth thread?

Who is more the villain, the people who turn the threads into shit or me for starting to read a thread that maybe had a topic I was interested in?

Fwiiw, my opinion is that there are no villains in a situation such as this (i.e., posts on an open internet forum...or on the internet in common for that matter); it is an open public resource for everyone to post/say whatever they please (within whatever boundaries are set and enforced by board administration). Filtering to find the material that interests each of us is the job of each of us, and trying to dictate or control how and what others post is both futile and usually more inflammatory than any debate of an actual topic external to the forum (based on decades of experience in a wide range of net communities).

Personally I find the VAST majority of material posted on TAG to be of no interest at all to me, and as a result I read only a tiny minority of the threads and posts here. At this moment, for example, there are over 17,000 TAG posts I have never read, most in threads I have never opened. There are lots of mechanisms to help us find what interests us and avoid what does not.

-Ww

 

[Soapysoap66]

Sure, but people are basically destroying threads.
For example the Red Queen thread, that turned into an abomination by pointless interjections by non pua people including yourself, which contributed no value what so ever to the thread and it turned into a name calling thread. And that is happening more and more it feels like.

 

[Sinapse]

I will also note that while the gamers stay pretty much exclusively in the nampa/pua forum, many mongers have an irresistible attraction to posting in this subforum as well, and while I think it has gotten better, a large portion of the debate rehash is tiring or at least repetitive and goes something like this:

Gamer: specific point about pickup/game
Person (with generally no experience or interest in game) wandering into game forum: "but game (as a whole) is WROOOOOOOONG "(/manipulative /unnatural /unnecessary /bothersome /the flavor of the day argument)
Gamer: Yes, we've had this discussion many times and every time we pretty much agree to disagree
Person: WROOOOOOOOOOONG
Gamer: *shrug* so don't do it?
Chorus: WROOOOOOOOOONG
4vibes: PUA is don't harass. P4P are sad old men.
Chorus: *baited by 4vibes* YOU'RE WROOOOOOONG and therefore PUA is WROOOOOOONG

The very simple solution - if you think game is wrong, we probably heard you the first time.

For the sake of people interested in game itself it's nice to keep the discussions raised in the threads about the specific game point that was discussed, or at least about game in general rather than another "is game moral / necessary" discussion

 

[Soapysoap66]

Yes can we have none of that ever again please.

 

[Wwanderer]

Sure, but people are basically destroying threads.
For example the Red Queen thread, that turned into an abomination by pointless interjections by non pua people including yourself, which contributed no value what so ever to the thread and it turned into a name calling thread. And that is happening more and more it feels like.

I hear you and understand your general point. I'd also agree that the Red Queen thread turned into a particularly low quality exchange, and perhaps that was my fault at least in part. Moreover, I am well aware that you are not the only one on TAG who feels this way.

However, you should be aware that not everyone agrees with you. Overall the various PUA debates (I don't call them PUA-P4P debates because many of them say nothing about P4P, and even when they do, I think it is usually pretty irrelevant...a result of someone insisting that PUA and P4P are the only possible alternatives) produce an unusually large number of posts, views and likes. My posts in such threads get more likes and more encouragement from private convos and LINE messages etc than my posts in most other types of threads. So, it does not seem that everyone shares your feelings about the PUA pro-con discussions. Would you agree?

I'd go so far as to guess that the Red Queen thread would have garnered far less views if there had been no debate in it.

So, imo this is another case of WALDT. "One man gathers what another man spills." Take what you want and leave the rest.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Yes can we have none of that ever again please.

Not very likely imo.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Btw, this is an exceptionally odd place for this particular meta-discussion since the topic of the OP is about how PUA and P4P might be seen as more compatible and closely related...a chance for PUAs and mongers to get along better for once! I imagined the outcome to be a bootcamp offered jointly by @Sinapse and myself!

-Ww

 

[Soapysoap66]

Yes I'm sorry it was a bit unfair to unload here but it was a reply to the "endless cycle" you mentioned in the top post.
But at what point does the dead horse stop getting beat though? You can't justify destroying a thread just because you got likes and cheers from your friends.
Getting likes and cheers is not the point of a forum.
You are obviously inclined towards intelligent debate but like you said, that's not going to happen in this topic, so I see no point in continuing to wallow in misery.

 

[Soapysoap66]

You should break this out into a new thread tbh.