Is P4p Immoral?

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Sinapse

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It's pretty basic, I don't believe in paying for something (conversation, fun times and sex with women) that in my view isn't a commodity. Experience has taught me that it's possible to have as much sex as I want, with the women I want, in as many numbers as I want, without needing to burden the interaction with a monetary transaction. Experience has also taught me that I'm far from unique in being in this position, and that other men can do the same, which tends to leave them feeling happy and empowered, with a greater sense of freedom, abundance and possibility. I believe that p4p creates a distorted and somewhat unwholesome view of human relationships and sexual interactions. Therefore, encouraging people to game rather than p4p seems more moral to me, because confident, satisfied, empowered dudes are generally more attractive to women, and in my experience, get better reactions from women in general. But I'm down to hear what you, Wwanderer, or anyone else has to say.

Just starting a new thread, I'll add my own opinion later but for now just wanted things to be neat

If this is in the wrong place, please move it.. Wasn't sure where to put it

@Wwanderer @just4fun @Dorian Gray
 
The worlds oldest profession is wrong and immoral. I can see some people who would think that way.....religious fanatics for one....
.......so I guess the barter system is wrong too.....
 
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Not done it, not an advocate for it, but to call it morally wrong doesn't sit with me either. I reckon it's unfortunate there's such a demand for it, but I'd argue something potentially more manipulative like kyabakura is more morally wrong even if it seems less so.

As for mentally distorting the understanding of human relationships, yeah I could see that. I've also known guys who fucked hundreds of girls for free and the road to doing so ended up distorting their outlook on human relationships too, turned them into real horrible bastards. It aint a black and white issue, an interesting one tho
 
I am sure religious leaders and politicians (on camera or on the record) would claim p4p to be immoral. But if I was sitting in a bar in New York and beautiful young women approached me and offered me a $1000 to sleep with her, I would not have any personal "moral" issues, I would take the money without giving any thought to the moral code of others ( real or imagined).
 
The guy you quote didn't say P4P was immoral but that 'game' is more moral. I struggle with his logic but whatever...

Anyway to answer your question though - I don't consider it immoral. There are plenty of things associated with P4P that are immoral (ex. underage girls, human trafficking, violence against either the ladies or the gents).

Whether it is harmful to the men involved, the women involved or society in general I can't answer. I like freedom though so I don't care much either.
 
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This isn't really a very strong argument. You're just saying "because it has a long history, it must be right"

Well, slavery has a history about as old as time as well.
There's still slavery........but it's not a very good comparison imho unless of course ur comparing p4p with girls that don't have a choice.....
I want to hear about ur morals............
 
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P4P isn't immoral but there are immortal people involved in P4P like all aspects of life. You can't just say something is or isn't something because various shades of grey always exist. People pay for services in all aspects of life and people will take money to do things for others be it make their food, wash their car, do their paperwork for them etc etc you could all any of it immoral and bad if you twist it enough and people do. Why should a man with lots of money be able to have lots of people doing everything for him? Is it immoral that he has a maid/nanny to clean his house and take care of his kids because he can afford to pay somebody and somebody is willing to take that money for services?

P4P is much the same there are people who want that service and those who will provide it for a price. As far as game goes all you do in this case is exchange monetary value for personal value. You convince a girl that being with you is something she wants and that her world will be better in it. You still have monetary value though less in the form of dates but for the most part she doesn't stand to gain a whole lot beyond sex and then being dropped for the next target. At least a provider has a wad of cash out of it if you decide the sex is lousy and she isn't worth another date. I don't know what exactly is more immoral in this case XD.
 
[QUOTE="SpookySmoothie, post: 43655, member: 6033.[/QUOTE]and then being dropped for the next target

My point exactly......there's ur morals......using someone for your own benefit and then discarding them like a pet bottle......just more rejection .......

Oh.....I can hear the comeback already......it was beneficial for her too......if she wanted "You" so bad......why are you doing the chasing???
 
There's still slavery........but it's not a very good comparison imho unless of course ur comparing p4p with girls that don't have a choice.....
I want to hear about ur morals............

My point was that, p4p, like slavery, has existed for a very long time. It's longevity has no relation with it's mortality. That's all I was saying. The fact that it's been around a long time doesn't make it right.

My morals? I don't believe sex should be a commodity, but if people want to do it I guess I don't care if it's not hurting anybody. Unfortunately, in it's current state it often is.
 
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You convince a girl that being with you is something she wants and that her world will be better in it. You still have monetary value though less in the form of dates but for the most part she doesn't stand to gain a whole lot beyond sex and then being dropped for the next target.

This still fundamentally assumes that men "get" and women "give." I reject this premise. Sex is not a transaction. Men and women share experience together. Dancing, for example, is a great illustration of this. You can say the man is leading and doing all the movement, but it would be foolish to think the man is "getting to dance" and the woman is "giving up a dance" or to imagine either party as gaining or losing more than the other
 
My morals? I don't believe sex should be a commodity, but if people want to do it I guess I don't care if it's not hurting anybody. Unfortunately, in it's current state it often is.

But you feel that selling books/forums to get sex is an ok commodity? Where's the morals in that? Me, me, me, me?
 
This still fundamentally assumes that men "get" and women "give." I reject this premise. Sex is not a transaction. Men and women share experience together. Dancing, for example, is a great illustration of this. You can say the man is leading and doing all the movement, but it would be foolish to think the man is "getting to dance" and the woman is "giving up a dance" or to imagine either party as gaining or losing more than the other
Bullshit.......nothing is free......
dancing.....art.....cars......you really expecting me to buy this line of thinking?
See.....this is why I hate salespeople........
 
But you feel that selling books/forums to get sex is an ok commodity? Where's the morals in that? Me, me, me, me?

Just like if you want to get better at dancing, you can pay someone to learn the steps and more people will want to dance with you. Dance itself, however, is something that can not be bought or sold. The difference here is coaching is a service, for whatever you might find valuable. Sex itself is a natural function.

Take another example -

Someone charging you to breathe would be absurd. But you might take a class learning how to breathe deeper and get more energy and cleaner lungs and blood from it - And people do. But the second people start charging me to breathe is the second I take up arms
 
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This still fundamentally assumes that men "get" and women "give." I reject this premise. Sex is not a transaction. Men and women share experience together. Dancing, for example, is a great illustration of this. You can say the man is leading and doing all the movement, but it would be foolish to think the man is "getting to dance" and the woman is "giving up a dance" or to imagine either party as gaining or losing more than the other

Please explain to me what exactly a woman gains from you picking her up for sex then doing the same to somebody else the next night. Actually you do make a great point dancing much like sex you can do with several partners in a night. For that song she feels special like she matters to you then you move on to another partner. What is mutually gained from the experience beyond a few chemical reactions in the brain? Your premise seems to assume that women crave meaningless sex the same way that men do but when you examine the genetic make up that just isn't the case at all. The only reason men become good at being a PUA is that they learn how to pull the strings of what women want to a point they are getting something out of it when they won't unless there is something mutually beneficial inserted into the relationship in the case of what you discuss there just isn't. Meaningless sex is never a mutually beneficial transaction on it's own. Women genetically have instincts to seek out long term partners and have children and you can see examples of this in the type of males who are normally successful with women. I'm sure you can become very good at putting a spin on the game and make it seem like you are doing it for the mutual benefit of women but being picked up and dropped is not something they wish for in the same way men are genetically designed to spread their genes everywhere so crave several partners much more.

The very idea that guys who just pick up women for sex are somehow morally superior to guys paying for the company of women is just wrong to me.
 
Just like if you want to get better at dancing, you can pay someone to learn the steps and more people will want to dance with you. Dance itself, however, is something that can not be bought or sold. The difference here is coaching is a service, for whatever you might find valuable. Sex itself is a natural function.

Take another example -

Someone charging you to breathe would be absurd. But you might take a class learning how to breathe deeper and get more energy and cleaner lungs and blood from it - And people do. But the second people start charging me to breathe is the second I take up arms

That would be all well and good if people all sold books on sex techniques but many of these self help "how to pick up women" books are filled with lies and fake psychology that doesn't actually work. What normally happens is they have some jacked up good looking guy with a lot of self confidence convincing lonely guys that buying their book will actually change their life when it just doesn't work that way. The techniques only work for a jacked up good looking guy because genetically he already has the tools to attract women who have instincts to create the best offspring. A healthy attractive guy would be a prime target. But still guys will eat these books up hoping for that one super secret technique that brainwashes women into thinking they are a prime slab of man.

Nobody writes that stuff because they want to help anyone as much as nobody advertises penis enlargement pills because they really think they work.
 
I've brought the quotes below over from "The Game" thread to this one created by @Sinapse (thanks) for discussion of this topic:

It's pretty basic, I don't believe in paying for something (conversation, fun times and sex with women) that in my view isn't a commodity.

I guess you mean that you don't believe its right/moral rather than not believing that it is possible.

Anyway, there is not much to respond to here...just an assertion of what you believe is answered (as several members already have above) by someone else saying they believe differently. So, I guess I can just reply that I believe that mentally competent and consenting adults can morally exchange money for sex or interact in any other way they wish for that matter, so long as it does not harm or abridge the rights of others. I further believe that it is immoral for anyone to judge, stigmatize and/or legally suppress such activities simply because it doesn't agree with their ideas of what is right; doing so is to inappropriately intrude on other people's lives and to place yourself in judgement over them (by what authority?).

In terms of your argument above, why should you, rather than the people involved, be the one to determine what is or is not a commodity? To be clear, you are obviously entitled to an opinion, but calling the action of others immoral goes beyond that. It is claiming that your opinion is a truer measure of right and wrong than their opinions...for them!

Experience has taught me that it's possible to have as much sex as I want, with the women I want, in as many numbers as I want, without needing to burden the interaction with a monetary transaction. Experience has also taught me that I'm far from unique in being in this position, and that other men can do the same, which tends to leave them feeling happy and empowered, with a greater sense of freedom, abundance and possibility. I believe that p4p creates a distorted and somewhat unwholesome view of human relationships and sexual interactions. Therefore, encouraging people to game rather than p4p seems more moral to me, because confident, satisfied, empowered dudes are generally more attractive to women, and in my experience, get better reactions from women in general. But I'm down to hear what you, Wwanderer, or anyone else has to say.

With the possible exception of the sentence I made bold all of the above is simply irrelevant to the morality of p4p. You are just saying that "gaming" (another word for PUA or nampa I guess?) is a better option than p4p. I don't agree, at least not for all men, but it doesn't matter which of us is correct. The existence of a superior alternative does not make something immoral in any normal sense.

For example, I can go to the grocery store and buy "fresh" vegetables produced and marketed by the international agro-industry complete with extensive use of genetic modifications, pesticides etc. Or, alternatively, I can have a vegetable garden in my back yard and "grow my own". The second option is a better one in many ways (though it takes much more of my limited time and energy), and it may well even leave me "feeling happy and empowered, with a greater sense of freedom, abundance and possibility." But does that make buying vegetables at the grocery store immoral??! If it does, I'm going to do something morally wrong a bit later today... :rolleyes:

On the your sentence I made bold, I agree. That does happen sometimes in the p4p world; I have seen it many times. It is particularly likely for guys and women whose only or nearly only sexual activities are p4p. However, it definitely doesn't always happen and is pretty rare for those who only enrich their sex lives or incomes with occasional p4p. But in any case, this is not an argument that p4p is immoral. It is an argument for it having a downside and perhaps even being an unwise choice, but tons of things are like that. Religion, gambling, drinking alcohol, playing video games intensively etc etc all have downsides, may be unwise life choices, and indeed can all produce "unwholesome human relationships" for many people, but few would therefore call them immoral. (Well, extremely religious people might well call all those items I listed except religion itself immoral, but I they would probably also consider extramarital sex of any sort immoral.)

Bottom line - I see no convincing argument here that p4p is immoral, and most of what you wrote isn't even about morality or moral issues.

-Ww
 
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Btw, I very much hope that this thread will stay away from debating p4p vs PUA/nampa/gaming/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Doing so is illogical and distracting. It is not like they are exclusive alternatives to each other. A guy can do one, both or neither as he prefers and have a perfectly satisfactory sex life. The large majority of men do little or none of either. And nothing good/bad about one makes the other bad/good, surely.

The only way the two get so often pitted against each other in these discussions is via ad hominem attacks (i.e., saying something negative about another member or his life/activities rather than about the actual topic/issue/argument being discussed).

-Ww
 
The guy you quote didn't say P4P was immoral but that 'game' is more moral. I struggle with his logic but whatever...

Anyway to answer your question though - I don't consider it immoral. There are plenty of things associated with P4P that are immoral (ex. underage girls, human trafficking, violence against either the ladies or the gents).

Whether it is harmful to the men involved, the women involved or society in general I can't answer. I like freedom though so I don't care much either.

Fwiiw, he above says briefly much of what I would say at length on this topic, another post I wish I could like multiple times.

-Ww
 
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Just like if you want to get better at dancing, you can pay someone to learn the steps and more people will want to dance with you.

This someone opinion of how it should be done........for say a dance competition.......like figure skating would be a better example.

Dance itself, however, is something that can not be bought or sold.

Never heard the song "10 cents a dance" I guess.....maybe I'm dealing with someone with not enough life experience......

The difference here is coaching is a service, for whatever you might find valuable. Sex itself is a natural function.

Like breathing......or taking a dump......something that's natural..... so what ur saying is that taking advantage of someone that initially has zero interest in you and you can con them into the sack is natural? Again.....I don't buy that crap......

Take another example -

Someone charging you to breathe would be absurd. But you might take a class learning how to breathe deeper and get more energy and cleaner lungs and blood from it - And people do. But the second people start charging me to breathe is the second I take up arms

why? I learned that in high school.....music 101? gimme a break.......
 
Please explain to me what exactly a woman gains from you picking her up for sex then doing the same to somebody else the next night.

Why would you assume that sex is better for men and that women "get less" from it? Do you know anything about the female orgasm? Spoiler alert - they can have FAR more pleasure than we can.

Actually you do make a great point dancing much like sex you can do with several partners in a night. For that song she feels special like she matters to you then you move on to another partner. What is mutually gained from the experience beyond a few chemical reactions in the brain?

When you go to a ball or a social dance club you would be VERY foolish to believe that your dance partner will never take another dance partner.

Your premise seems to assume that women crave meaningless sex the same way that men do but when you examine the genetic make up that just isn't the case at all.

Women genetically have instincts to seek out long term partners and have children and you can see examples of this in the type of males who are normally successful with women. I'm sure you can become very good at putting a spin on the game and make it seem like you are doing it for the mutual benefit of women but being picked up and dropped is not something they wish for in the same way men are genetically designed to spread their genes everywhere so crave several partners much more.

First let's change "meaningless" to "casual" since meaning is created by the person in the act. I find nearly all sex meaningful - I can't possibly imagine what meaningless sex would look like or be.

Second, I think you are confusing:
1. What patriarchy, monogamy, and capitalism have taught you about sexuality

with

2. Genetics.

There is a TON of research that directly contradicts your unqualified assertion that women don't crave casual sex. For starters I urge you to look at:

sneak copulation and female promiscuity

penis and testicle size in primates
"Human testis size indicates that males evolved under conditions in which their sperm competed inside females... But the larger human penis suggests that hominids needed to keep females with choice sexually satisfied"

the penis as a semen scoop
"the penis acts as a "semen displacement device" and its shape has evolved in part to displace another man's semen."

The extreme competition of your sperm (did you know that 99% of your sperm has the sole purpose of 'kamikaze'-ing other men's sperm and only 1% of your sperm actually seeks out and fertilizes eggs)

There are a lot more resources about this topic as well. Basically all of it concludes that humans are inherently promiscuous, monogamy is NOT the natural state of humans, and women, although more deceptive / sneaky about their promiscuity, like and practice casual sex just as much, if not more, than the average man. The physiology and evolution of our genitals proves that we are inherently competitive and that women are very promiscuous and will seek out sex and sperm. You say there is "no benefit" but this is patently false - females benefit when they have sperm competition happening inside of them, creating an environment where the best genes fertilize her egg. It is in the females best interest to have a provider male who will give her and her offspring food, while secretly copulating with the genetically fittest men in the population. In short, women are hard-wired to make nice beta males rear children which aren't theirs - and that's genetically RIGHT.

This is corroborated in recent studies where women have MORE sexual partners than men.

Tl; dr, women are promiscuous, and like sex just as much, if not more than men. Anything to the contrary is a myth propagated by patriarchy, just like burqas and chastity belts.

many of these self help "how to pick up women" books are filled with lies and fake psychology that doesn't actually work.

Not sure which self-help books you're referring to here. Reference and quotes? Show me something specific and then we can actually discuss it. These vague value judgments are meaningless.

The techniques only work for a jacked up good looking guy because genetically he already has the tools to attract women who have instincts to create the best offspring. A healthy attractive guy would be a prime target. But still guys will eat these books up hoping for that one super secret technique that brainwashes women into thinking they are a prime slab of man.

This is known as an "argument from personal incredulity" and is a common fallacy. Basically, "I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false." This is a common argument against pickup. Rather than it not working, you simply don't believe it works. Well..... it does. I could show you first-hand.

I've SEEN it work with men who are not at all physically attractive. @Dorian Gray and my good friend R is a short, balding, funny looking older dude with a gap tooth and very little Japanese, and he's slept with hundreds upon hundreds of fit young hairdressers, models, and hostesses. There are countless guys who are physically unattractive and yet women still fall for them. Luckily for men, we can still strike high above our physical "level" if we get everything else under control and improve our game.

However, I do agree with you that any "super secret technique" is not likely to be true. Instead, any pickup book worth its salt with teach you to improve yourself in every way you can, let go of your insecurities if you can't change them, learn about the women you want to meet, and proactively go out and meet them. I can't see how that's despicable, a "lie" or a "super secret technique".

And please, if you're going to make sweeping claims like "women don't like casual sex" or "pickup is all lies" at least TRY to support it with evidence of some sort.
 
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To get things back on topic

There are plenty of things associated with P4P that are immoral (ex. underage girls, human trafficking, violence against either the ladies or the gents).

My question now, to anyone who uses p4p:

Given that there are many situations where women are coerced, forced against their will, trafficked across borders or from the provinces to the city with false promises of jobs, held under false debts like inflated rents, and generally just controlled and operated by the yakuza (who use the profits for lots of other illicit and violent acts), how can you go to a prostitute with a clean conscience? Chances are the girl you are paying money to have sex with is doing so against her will or if not, is vastly underpaid for her services and receives pennies on the dollar of what the brothel actually charges. Even if only 1/10 prostitutes are forced into it, how can you support that industry and live with yourself knowing that you might have slept with one of those women?
 
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