Japanese Women And Cultural Secrets

[Solong]

Had a discussion with some pals about things Japanese women do. It comes from years of experience being here and is something guys new to Japan might not know or would usually have to learn the hard way. One interesting topic was-

"How do you know if you are really A Japanese woman's boyfriend or just her sex-friend?"

There are some tricks to figuring this out:

1) Has She Willingly & Intentionally Introduced You To Her Family, Friends, or Co-Workers?

This is very important, because if you have never met anybody in her inner circles or met them accidentally or through your insistence or pushing it, then she may not see you as marriage material or as a long term option. And if you met them accidentally or had to badger her about it, even if you met her parents, she can still scheme to get rid of you. Weird unprovoked arguments can come up, where she blames you for it and complains to friends and family about you. Thus, an excuse to break the relationship.

2) There Is Usually An Hierarchy Of Importance Among Her Inner Circle

It's usually casual acquaintances, co-workers, friends, close friends she grew up with, siblings/cousins/grand parents, and then her parents. Usually her mother is introduced before the father, who is often last, and often signals: engagement, marriage, or pregnancy is imminent. So if you simply know her friends, it doesn't mean you are a long term prospect, and can even still just be a sex-friend. Now, if she has introduced you to her parents and upon her insistence, it can be she is putting the family on notice. A subliminal message like, "If I get pregnant and married this guy, don't be that surprised."

3) Have You Been To Her House/Apartment?

This is another barrier that Japanese women can put up. If she is always at your place or you're at the hotel together, and you never go to her place, it can be that you are a sex-friends and not a true boyfriend. From experience and opinion, the more resistance she puts up about you coming to her place, the more likely she doesn't view you as long term or as a sex-friend. Another point about her place, is her real boyfriend can be going there, and she doesn't want the neighbors to know anything else. She might be highly concerned about her image in the neighborhood (more old-fashioned thinking), even if nobody really cares (especially in big cities).

4) Does She Make You Wear A Condom?

This is a Japanese cultural oddity, that unless you lived in Japan, a person might not understand at all. Basically, the more a Japanese woman trusts you then the less likely you have to use a condom or she wants to show you her loyalty or trustworthiness to you by now wanting you to wear one. Now this is a very tricky and touchy subject, as it's common for Japanese men (especially traditionally or old-school types) to insist on no condom, in order to establish a special relationship. Even if the woman is a long-term prostitute or clearly not his main girlfriend or wife. The woman might comply, but still have other guys. However, in a normal relationship (non prostitution) context, Japanese women will usually only extent this privilege to 1 or 2 guys. If she allows no condom, then she usually does consider your relationship with her as special. And smart Japanese women know how to get and use birth control pills. So if she is very adamant about you wearing a condom, it might mean you are not those 1 or 2 main guys, and are on the outside or side boyfriend. Of course, a guy might very much want to use a condom and want it that way, but be aware of the cultural background at play. Don't be surprised if she considers you using the condom to mean she is 2nd or 3rd on your list OR she has put you as 2nd or 3rd on her list or just short time relationship. Not politically correct and people don't usually come out and say it, but it can be what's the deal practically.

5) Does She Visit At Least 1X A Week?

This is an odd Japanese cultural pattern that Westerners may not understand or be aware of at first. Japanese tend to have sex OR see the opposite sex less often than in many other countries. Now, she can be having a lot of sex, just not necessarily with the SAME guy. She might have you on a schedule, with 3 other guys. Therefore, the more often a Japanese women sees you, the more likely your relationship is special and you are the main guy. If she sees you in an irregular pattern, like only 2X a month, you are more likely a casual sex-friend and despite what she might claim or excuses given. Unless you are clearly in an open-relationship or she is cheating on her husband with you, it's unlikely that a Japanese woman will admit to you being just 1 of 2 or 3 other guys she has sex with. So don't expect her to directly admit it. Where you are more likely to she what's up, is her patter of behavior and how she meeting up with you.

6) Does She See You On Holidays?

Another way you can tell where your relationships stands is if she gives you excuses for not meeting on or doesn't want to meet on Japanese holidays or special days. For example Valentines Day, White Day, Christmas, Her Birthday, etc... This can indicate you are 2nd or 3rd on her list.

7) Does She Do Anything Special For You?

Besides sex and letting you or pushing you to spend money on her, what does she do? If basically nothing else, more likely she is a sex-friend. If she sees herself as your girlfriend or wants to be number 1 on your list, she will likely do things like cook, clean your apartment, buy you gifts, spend money on you, do you special sexual favors, etc... Special sex favors, would be anything that you specifically want her to beyond vanilla missionary style sex. Maybe drink your sperm, anal sex, wear lingerie, etc... Usually the thinking is she wants to keep you, so wants you totally satisfied. However, keep in mind that she might be sexually prudish/repressed, so she might think doing something special for you is doing your laundry or sewing a hole in your pants.

8) Length Of Time In The Relationship (Doesn't Usually Matter).

This is an odd thing, where it means more in many Western countries than in Japan. For example, I have a Japanese lady friend that comes over almost every Tuesday for the past 6 months and we have sex. Is she more than a sex-friend, not really. In Japan, many put each other into a schedule and are locked into a very predictable routine and habit. I've had friends, who had sex-friends for 5 years and beyond. Their relationship never evolved much beyond the basic routine. It's like that person is a filler, for if or when they ever find "Mister/Miss Perfect". Since they haven't or haven't found the time to search more intently, they have a "filler" person to satisfy their basic needs for companionship. The tricky thing is that, usually the woman in this situation, will all of the sudden want to get married or want children (biological clock). As in, she didn't find any other prospects, so you will do. Unfortunately, the guy doesn't always agree, so the relationship breaks up after 5 or even 7 years. These type relationships are often Japanese with another Japanese, so isn't specific to relationships with foreigners.

Go Through Checklist, And Usually That's Your Answer

If a guy isn't sure where he is at in a relationship with a Japanese woman or he suspects something about her, usually going through a checklist like this allows him to figure it out.

 

[Solong]

Typo corrections:

4) The more a Japanese woman trusts you, then the less likely you have to use a condom or she wants to show her loyalty to you by wanting you NOT to wear one... The privilege is usually only extended to 1 or maybe 2 of her main guys.

She will usually: be on the pill, she trusts the guy to cum outside of her (and he has PROVEN this skill), will have him cum by alternative sex like anal or oral, or she straight up doesn't mind he gets her pregnant.

5) Don't expect Japanese women to honestly admit what they really do. You will often and more likely have to figure it out by her pattern of behavior.

 

[Wwanderer]

Uh...these are generalizations of course (I assume you would agree), and as generalizations, they apply about equally well to non-Japanese women imo. The exception is #8 I suppose, but for all the other number points, I can't think of a nationality of women who behave any differently in *general* (at least in my experience). Moreover, aren't most of them just common sense? I mean who would think that a woman's casual acquaintances or co-workers are more important/closer to her than her parents? Or in what culture would a woman seeing a suitor more often be a sign that he is less important to her?

In short, I am a bit baffled by the title of the thread in that almost all of the content seems neither particular to Japanese women nor "secret".

I am not looking for an argument or just trying to rattle your chain [well, ok, maybe a little bit ], but basically I suspect I am missing your point or perspective here.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Uh...these are generalizations of course (I assume you would agree), and as generalizations, they apply about equally well to non-Japanese women imo. The exception is #8 I suppose, but for all the other number points, I can't think of a nationality of women who behave any differently in *general* (at least in my experience). Moreover, aren't most of them just common sense? I mean who would think that a woman's casual acquaintances or co-workers are more important/closer to her than her parents? Or in what culture would a woman seeing a suitor more often be a sign that he is less important to her?

In short, I am a bit baffled by the title of the thread in that almost all of the content seems neither particular to Japanese women nor "secret".

I am not looking for an argument or just trying to rattle your chain [well, ok, maybe a little bit ], but basically I suspect I am missing your point or perspective here.

-Ww

Yes, I agree they are more generalized guide lines. But, do consider it very relevant to Japanese women. Not just #8, but #1, #4, and #5 too. And understanding the situation, versus just words or conversation.

Also, there ARE cultural differences. I think some people confuse being politically correct and equal legal rights among different races, with eliminating or ignoring cultural differences. Whenever cultural differences come up, some get uncomfortable as if we are talking about racial differences. They aren't the same, and we shouldn't treat it as such.

Many foreign guys have no idea where they stand in the relationship they are in with Japanese women, because she won't discuss it or they don't discuss it. This is constantly evident in many conversations with foreign guys, and this was different then relationships they had back home. So this helps in evaluating the behavior and situation.

The guys I was talking to recently were U.S. military and German. They got played terribly by Japanese women. And I've talked to guys over and over, and it's happened to me too (though I tend to have more than 1 lady which softens the blow). Where they thought they had a special relationship with a Japanese woman and she SUDDENLY disappeared or turned COLD. They can be having sex routinely for some significant length of time (weeks or months) with a Japanese woman and mistakenly think that combination means a relationship. But to her, it doesn't, and she can suddenly break it off, want to break off the relationship, or turn emotionally cold as if all the time spend together meant absolutely nothing. NOT every Japanese person pulls that, but evidently a LOT do, to the point it's arguably a cultural issue to be aware of.

And, I will add more, and you can too. If you can relate and type about what you find as culturally different, then go for it.

 

[Hamerare]

Yap I agree with Solong here on mosta what he says. This info will be useful for newbies

The type of J woman who has the johns about gaijin has often got a J BF on the side who she can't see all that often especially if he got a job in another city. These gaijin vampires actually have a bad attitude to the gaijin sex friend verging on racism

But there a lot of J girls who can only see u 1ce a week on a weekend usually Sunday bcoz of working hours and commuting times on weekdays

A lotta J girls come from outta town so they can't introduce u to their family in Hokkaido. A lot don't even have any real friends apart from colleagues at work. One reason they don't wanna introduce a gaijin BF to work colleagues or acquaintances is that her friends will automatically assume she is fluent in English which is often not the case.

Other girls can't take u back to their place if their parents live there. Or they don't want the neighbors to know about their priv8 life . Or they live in a cramped 1DK with their clothes strewn all over the shop.

In fact J culture especially on Tokyo don't conducive to having visitors in ur home

 

[Solong]

Yap I agree with Solong here on mosta what he says. This info will be useful for newbies

The type of J woman who has the johns about gaijin has often got a J BF on the side who she can't see all that often especially if he got a job in another city. These gaijin vampires actually have a bad attitude to the gaijin sex friend verging on racism

But there a lot of J girls who can only see u 1ce a week on a weekend usually Sunday bcoz of working hours and commuting times on weekdays

A lotta J girls come from outta town so they can't introduce u to their family in Hokkaido. A lot don't even have any real friends apart from colleagues at work. One reason they don't wanna introduce a gaijin BF to work colleagues or acquaintances is that her friends will automatically assume she is fluent in English which is often not the case.

Other girls can't take u back to their place if their parents live there. Or they don't want the neighbors to know about their priv8 life . Or they live in a cramped 1DK with their clothes strewn all over the shop.

In fact J culture especially on Tokyo don't conducive to having visitors in ur home

You bring up some very good points, particularly if you go through the check list and are debating if her reasons are valid for what she is doing:

. Parents

If she hasn't introduced you to her parents because they are far away in another city, that's understandable. HOWEVER, what about her friends, co-workers, and possible brothers and sisters in the same city?

And if the relationship is considered that important, it's been my experience that one of her parents will come to the city to see you or she will ask you at some point to come see her parents (though this is usually a year or a few years into the relationship).

Friends usually come first, and guy should be suspicious, if you are introducing her to your friends and not meeting hers. Now, it could be she is from outside the city and doesn't have true friends beyond co-workers. But calculate this and other factors in your mind.

. Ashamed & Racism

These are huge factors not to be overlooked. Japanese is still very culturally BACKWARDS in this regard. She might not be racist, but is worried about or know her friends, co-workers, or family are. She is avoiding introducing you, because she rather HIDE the relationship or can't stand up to any negative criticism or opinions.

And co-workers can be very tricky. That's her job and can be just about money. She might not really like her co-workers all that much.

But this issue is also about the strength of her CHARACTER and is of utmost importance in my opinion. If she is publicly mentally weak or cowardly about race or international relationships, don't be surprised later when she suddenly disappears or turns cold.

She might simply can't tell you that her interracial or international relationship is unacceptable to her friends or family, thus she is cowardly breaking it off. To include other things like she was sexually experimenting with interracial or international sex.

. Work Schedule

Many Japanese women will straight up be LYING about their schedule. This comes from Japanese that will tell you that, not my sole opinion. Often they are spending extra time socializing with friends or co-workers and might not be mentally strong enough to pull themselves out of the group. When a Japanese woman really wants to see you, she usually CAN rearrange her schedule.

She can bring a change of clothes, take the last train to your house, sleep with you, then head to work from your house in the morning. To also include coming to your house, then taking the first train back to her apartment, change, then go to work. It's all a matter of her not being lazy, will power, and how much she likes you.

. Sneaky Playgirl With Many Boyfriends & Her Schedule

Women play the cheating game much better than men, and it's usually so easy for them. She doesn't have enough time for you, because she sleeps with you and 2 other guys. And you may not be her main or long term guy. Consequently, meeting you is more random or even a 1 night stand.

. Foreign Guy As Sex Toy & Evil Games

And, it can be her main boyfriend or husband is a Japanese guy, and her sex-friend are foreigners. This is because the Japanese guy is culturally acceptable to friends, family, and co-workers. It can be she has selected foreigners, because she can get away with a HIGHER level of abuse, in addition to some secret fetish. She might be very scared of a negative confrontation with a Japanese man as side lover or him figuring out EXACTLY what she is doing.

But when it comes to more passionate, playful, or experimental sex than she might have choosen a foreign guy to be used as a sex toy. This is also where a lot of cold-blooded, cold-hearted, or seemingly crazy/bi-polar behavior by SOME Japanese women towards foreign men can come from.

She never saw the foreign guy as a long term prospect. In fact, some such Japanese women can have very racist or ethical prejudices against their foreign boy-toy. She seeks to ABUSE the foreign guy for fun. This can border on EVIL and the women having NO empathy or guilt. Lack of guilt is more well known as a cultural difference with Japan, but lack of EMPATHY is another HUGE difference less widely known. Combined, lack of guilt and empathy towards someone can cause some very odd and bad behavior.

Thus she can be sweet one minute to HOOK the guy and cold the next to DUMP him. It doesn't matter to her, because the relationship doesn't matter. It's just a twisted game. Not every Japanese woman is evil or abusive in that way, but some are, and foreigners can run into or be SELECTED by such women.

Now with that typed, NOT every Japanese woman is a certain way, but a foreign guy would do well to understand such things and to help figure out what's really going on with the woman he is dealing with. It can be the difference between getting fooled, played for a fool, or not.

 

[Wwanderer]

@Solong - Just to be clear, it did not cross my mind that you were being racist or politically incorrect or anything of the sort, nor would I for a moment deny that there are *major* differences between Japanese and Western cultures in many areas of life, certainly including relationships. For example, I think Japanese cultures associates sexual relations with romance much less strongly than many/most others.

Rather, I am simply saying that most of the things you listed in the OP are pretty much universal and obvious to nearly all men (as opposed to being "secret"). Just to give one example of many possible ones, you mention above that you think item #5 on your list pertains especially to Japanese women. In that item you write, "the more often a Japanese women sees you, the more likely your relationship is special and you are the main guy". My reaction is...uh, duh! Or put slightly differently, could you mention a few cultures in which the less often a woman sees you the more you should consider yourself special and important to her? Or maybe there are a lot of men out there who think to them selves, "Wow! That woman will almost never spend time with me. I must be her #1 guy!" I mean, seriously...

I intend no disrespect; the OP simply baffles me.

-Ww

 

[Hamerare]

I said this b4 n I"ll say it again

The problem in Tokyo concerning the frequency at which u can see ur girl is mainly 1 of geography. If u live in Kanagawa n she lives in Chiba, u won't see much of each other during the week.

When u meet a Girl, the 1st question u should ask is where she lives. If it's more than a few train stations away, chuck her

 

[Wwanderer]

And if you both live in Chiba, you should move somewhere else!

(Teasing.)

-Ww

 

[Solong]

@Solong - #5 on your list pertains especially to Japanese women. In that item you write, "the more often a Japanese women sees you, the more likely your relationship is special and you are the main guy". My reaction is...uh, duh! Or put slightly differently, could you mention a few cultures in which the less often a woman sees you the more you should consider yourself special and important to her? Or maybe there are a lot of men out there who think to them selves, "Wow! That woman will almost never spend time with me. I must be her #1 guy!" I mean, seriously...

I intend no disrespect; the OP simply baffles me.

-Ww

Actually and amazingly, there are many foreign guys that can get confused on this because of the excuses that various Japanese women give them. In a Western style relationship, they would of course not accept this. They would likely and rapidly break down the truth in a conversation or be suspicious.

But a Japanese woman might say she is so busy with work, and that meeting more frequently is impossible, and they believe it. Because the Japanese woman can sell the situation as she being a victim of the work culture and that's how Japan is. Plus she can give the impression or put on the act that she cares so much for the guy. The guy might buy into this acting job and excuses.

Have talked to many foreign guys that were played in this way. Plus, the checklist wouldn't be any 1 particular thing, but several points. Frequency is just 1 factor of several to look at.

 

[Solong]

I said this b4 n I"ll say it again

The problem in Tokyo concerning the frequency at which u can see ur girl is mainly 1 of geography. If u live in Kanagawa n she lives in Chiba, u won't see much of each other during the week.

When u meet a Girl, the 1st question u should ask is where she lives. If it's more than a few train stations away, chuck her

Distance And It's Importance

You are bringing up very good points. Definitely agree a guy would be wise to ask a girl about where she lives and works. In fact, that initial conversation is so very important in pulling lots of information. Many Japanese women will be HONEST because the conversation and meeting is unexpected, outside of a bar situation or non-Internet. Like say you met her at a coffee shop. She might not have prepared a defense or set of lies, as wasn't expecting to meet anybody. You can then pull her schedule and more in general conversation.

But there are some other factors that counter distance. Why?

. Days Off & True Schedule

Various Japanese women will lie about what their days off are or claim to have a 2nd job when they don't. She might have the weekend off, but simply doesn't want to spend it with the same guy.

. Is She Working, Type of Job, or College Student?

Can be she doesn't have a job or in college. And maybe she is a nurse. A nurse can have a highly irregular schedule due to shift work, but have a couple of days off during the week. So, time is there, but a matter of if she chooses to spend it on you or not.

. Work Place VS Where She Lives

It can be that she lives in Chiba or Saitama, but works in Tokyo. Let's say Shibuya for example, and the guy lives in Meguro. That means she can still bring her work clothes and stay the night, IF she truly wanted to. In fact his place being closer to her job makes it very convenient.

. Japanese Women Wanting Relationships To Progress Slowly, As If They Have Forever

This is a HUGE cultural flaw in Japanese thinking, which I believe comes from a rural or country side mindset that doesn't work well in big cities or in international relationships.

Some Japanese women mistakenly slow down the relationship out of irrational fears it will progress too quickly, but instead KILL any passion and enthusiasm. Many Japanese women mistakenly encourage each other to do this or it becomes a bad relationship habit. As if all guys and relationships should follow the same formula, irregardless of if they are Japanese or foreign.

So she is hot and passionate the 1st time you met her or had sex, but you don't see her until 2 or 3 weeks later. When she shows up, it's like talking to a different person and she may even think to punish the guy for them enjoying sex before. Now she is playing it cool, thinking that's how she wins control.

This is often based on the mindset that she can see you ANY time she feels like it. So, there is no need to worry or take care of the relationship. If she doesn't see you but 1X or 2X a month, she is assuming you will always be available at her convenience or you are an easily replaceable toy (boy) to her. What often happens is the passion and enthusiasm gets lost, and other people get in the middle. Especially when women are fickle, and the other guy becomes the new shiny toy for the pussy cat to play with.

 

[Hamerare]

How do you know if a J woman is lying or not?

I think I'd hire a priv8 detective

 

[Solong]

How do you know if a J woman is lying or not?

I think I'd hire a priv8 detective

You can possibly if you ask the right questions, are observant of their eyes (particularly) and body language, and understanding their general flow of behavior.

Eyes are something I caught on to, that works better than facial expressions when discerning lies in Japan. While they might give an exceptionally good blank poker face, their eye gaze and eye movements can hold another story. And the strength and intensity of your gaze at them can cause people to crack, though that might not always be the tool that you want to use.

Where also many Japanese women will mess up, is in a disconnect with their PAST comments. COMPARE her past and present stories. She can forget what lie she told you or is telling so many lies to guys, she can't keep track of which ones she said with who.

Of course that's not specific to Japanese, but people in general. This can also help foreigners who haven't mastered speaking the Japanese language, but can help discern the character of the woman you are talking with.

 

[Mr Cat]

There is a crucial point missing to know if you are in a relationship or not, that very much applies more to japanese culture than anywhere else in the world (due to their lack of figurative/non said speech) is that to consider a relationship official, they need to hear the guy literally say /ask if she would be officially a couple.

That sounds so childish and non sense to me as in my opinion becoming a couple comes naturally. But I have actually heard from female friends the stories of them going out with the same guy for several months without acknowledging him as official boyfriend only because they haven't been officially asked.

Where I am from you stop asking "will you be my girlfriend?" when you more than 12years old.

But japanese women which for most lack of the unspoken words understanding (like the don't understand sarcasm or irony) needs to be asked

I am surprised a specialist like solong doesn't know about this

 

[Solong]

There is a crucial point missing to know if you are in a relationship or not, that very much applies more to japanese culture than anywhere else in the world (due to their lack of figurative/non said speech) is that to consider a relationship official, they need to hear the guy literally say /ask if she would be officially a couple.

That sounds so childish and non sense to me as in my opinion becoming a couple comes naturally. But I have actually heard from female friends the stories of them going out with the same guy for several months without acknowledging him as official boyfriend only because they haven't been officially asked.

Where I am from you stop asking "will you be my girlfriend?" when you more than 12years old.

But japanese women which for most lack of the unspoken words understanding (like the don't understand sarcasm or irony) needs to be asked

I am surprised a specialist like solong doesn't know about this

Actually, it's a good point to call things out directly. "As my girlfriend, this is what I expect you to do." "Am I your boyfriend?" However, if not done correctly or understanding the situation, it can backfire on guys. Many Japanese women will say what they think you want to hear, NOT their true feelings. Women can be very coy.

The Japanese concept that you are referring to is called kokuhaku. The Japanese woman doesn't have to accept, and can mean immediate break up or her conning her way out of the relationship totally. If the guy does it, it tends to be more problematic as oppose to the women doing to the guy. Kokuhaku works much better if the woman does it. And a Japanese woman will rarely do kokuhaku with a foreign guy, even if they end up married, because it's perceived as a Japanese only concept or unnecessary with foreigners.

Kokuhaku is an old Japanese concept of declaring one's love, and to Westerners it will seem VERY childish. It's like asking, "Will you be my girlfriend now?", like in elementary or junior high school. It can be done a bit more maturely, but that's basically what it is. The problem for foreigners is that it will usually not work or change the course of the trajectory that your relationship is on.
You are suppose to reach an understanding about your relationship, BEFORE doing kokuhaku, where you are confident the other person will accept. That's why the checklist is better in this regard.

Foreigners are also likely to meet Japanese women accidentally or coincidentally, not to be school classmates, co-workers, or neighbors for YEARS or grew up with her as teenagers. The nature of how almost all foreigners meet Japanese, makes kokuhaku difficult to do in the more traditional Japanese sense. It's much more likely that the foreigner (male or female), will have entered a sexual relationship with the Japanese person first. Like met accidentally at the park and exchanged contacts, went out on a date or a few dates, then had sex. Now that they are in an active adult sexual relationship, the checklist has more weight, versus a very Japanese old traditional notion.

If kokuhaku is mistimed or done prematurely, and particularly when there is no sexual relationship between the couple yet, it can come off extremely creepy. One person has strong feelings, but the other doesn't. I've talked to co-workers and past girlfriends who shared their experiences about it. Even in a Japanese only environment and relationship, it's tricky.

That's why, in such a situation, if you were classmates for 1 or 2 years it might come off better. There is a long friendship there, so if she rejects you, it can soften the embarrassment and blow a bit. But, it can still be painful if she is having sex or establishing relationships with your other friends.

And kokuhaku can be used in negative ways, like the Japanese guy doing variations of it and getting the Japanese woman to accept them as an official couple. Then tell her to throw away her mobile phone or give him her phone so he can delete all of her male contacts. Meanwhile, he still has other girlfriends and sex-friends on the side. It was a trick.

So kokuhaku doesn't override the checklist, especially for foreigners. And even if kokuhaku was successfully done and accepted, it doesn't stop the Japanese woman from changing her mind and cheating on you later. Kokuhaku isn't the same as getting engaged. It has about the same weight as saying, "I love you!", in the Western context. And with many people now, that means next to nothing and are just words. Consequently, the checklist is still relevant to understand what she's doing. She can be saying one thing, but doing another.

 

[Vulkan]

I had one close to virgin woman who wouldn't come to my place and stay in front of the building entrance until I do the kokuhaku.
I ended up doing it and she came in but I gave up on the sex and the girl. That was the most awkward thing possible.
The thing is that she never had a boyfriend before and I guess kept the automatism of middle schoolers although she was around 26.

some women will expect it even from a foreigner but I don't feel that's really the majority

 

[Mr Cat]

I feel that the kokuhaku (declaring one's interest for someone) and clarify the relationship status are two separate things.

For someone you already having sex with, in 99% of the cases you won't do a kokuhaku but you need to say the words clearly, not even say but ASK the "I want you to be my girlfriend officially, will you?" question. Which I agree come very close to the kokuhaku (the difference is very subtle)

Kokuhaku is more done with someone you already know for some time, have met several times but never showed your intentions/feeling. You tell the girl "I like you" and this is kokuhaku, either she feels the same way or she doesn't, but usually kokuhaku is done before any sex or date is involved. Kokuhaku is more pure, naive thing.

 

[Hamerare]

There is a crucial point missing to know if you are in a relationship or not, that very much applies more to japanese culture than anywhere else in the world (due to their lack of figurative/non said speech) is that to consider a relationship official, they need to hear the guy literally say /ask if she would be officially a couple.

That sounds so childish and non sense to me as in my opinion becoming a couple comes naturally. But I have actually heard from female friends the stories of them going out with the same guy for several months without acknowledging him as official boyfriend only because they haven't been officially asked.

Where I am from you stop asking "will you be my girlfriend?" when you more than 12years old.

But japanese women which for most lack of the unspoken words understanding (like the don't understand sarcasm or irony) needs to be asked

I am surprised a specialist like solong doesn't know about this

Gaijin are exempt from this daft cultural norm.

The average J dude will piss about for ages worrying about kokuhaku and how to take a possible rejection

The average gaijin has a few beers and sticks his tongue down her throat when no 1 is looking

Nuff said!

 

[Mr Cat]

Ahaha, that is kinda true, but you are mixing two different things : the gaijin nanpa and the Japanese let's go out together in a serious relationship.

Even gaijin have to say clearly to a girl that he officially consider her as his girlfriend. If not you open the door to a girl not going out with you officially and going on date with other guys.
I understand that it is pretty hard to believe until you've heard it from a female friend or experienced it for yourself but it is 100% true and applies to japanese and gaijin guys without restrictions (one of the rare example of fair treatment between japanese and gaijin in Japan lol)

 

[Ladylisa]

Ahaha, that is kinda true, but you are mixing two different things : the gaijin nanpa and the Japanese let's go out together in a serious relationship.

Even gaijin have to say clearly to a girl that he officially consider her as his girlfriend. If not you open the door to a girl not going out with you officially and going on date with other guys.
I understand that it is pretty hard to believe until you've heard it from a female friend or experienced it for yourself but it is 100% true and applies to japanese and gaijin guys without restrictions (one of the rare example of fair treatment between japanese and gaijin in Japan lol)

Interesting. I've dated Japanese guys seriously, but I don't know whether they ever made a declaration like that.
But even if they didn't say anything they did make it very clear though that they wanted to be my boyfriend and be exclusive.
Interestingly I also met a few parents - and it wasn't till later that I realised the guy might have been more serious about me than I thought.

 

[Solong]

Ahaha, that is kinda true, but you are mixing two different things : the gaijin nanpa and the Japanese let's go out together in a serious relationship.

Even gaijin have to say clearly to a girl that he officially consider her as his girlfriend. If not you open the door to a girl not going out with you officially and going on date with other guys.
I understand that it is pretty hard to believe until you've heard it from a female friend or experienced it for yourself but it is 100% true and applies to japanese and gaijin guys without restrictions (one of the rare example of fair treatment between japanese and gaijin in Japan lol)

Japanese women dating foreigners don't usually expect them to say this in a Japanese way or style. You are confusing Japanese traditional dating practices and Japanese only settings, with how Japanese interact with foreigners.

More importantly, stating to a Japanese woman that now you are boyfriend and girlfriend or asking a Japanese woman to be your girlfriend, doesn't stop her from cheating or breaking off the relationship. She might be caught in the emotion of the moment or like the drama and attention, but then think differently about the relationship later.

Japanese women will usually SHOW their obligation or dedication to the relationship by what's indicated in the checklist and her actions, not her words. And particularly when the guy forces the situation, so she says what you want to hear at the moment. Like when 2 people are having sex, and ask in the middle, "Do you love me?", "You are mine, right?". What they say in the moment, isn't necessarily how they will feel later.

It's like bringing a woman flowers. A very nice gesture that she may consider endearing, but doesn't mean or will make her love you, stay with you, or marry you. In fact, a Japanese woman directly saying she loves you (in uncoerced circumstances), is a much stronger indicator that she will stay in the relationship. But each woman is different, so the value and importance of her words vary. You are, Mr Cat, also missing the importance of the Japanese woman's declarations from her side. It's when SHE declares her love to you, on her own and without being cornered, that the relationship is more of a sure thing (IF the guy wants it that way too). And even then... I've seen Japanese women say they love a guy, then breakup a few weeks later. This is modern times, "I love you" and declarations are not what they used to be in the old days. Many women are only as loyal as the options she has or think she has. Words are not the same as actions.

 

[Hamerare]

Ahaha, that is kinda true, but you are mixing two different things : the gaijin nanpa and the Japanese let's go out together in a serious relationship.

Even gaijin have to say clearly to a girl that he officially consider her as his girlfriend. If not you open the door to a girl not going out with you officially and going on date with other guys.
I understand that it is pretty hard to believe until you've heard it from a female friend or experienced it for yourself but it is 100% true and applies to japanese and gaijin guys without restrictions (one of the rare example of fair treatment between japanese and gaijin in Japan lol)

I take ur word for it Mr Neko lol

It's been a while since I tried to d8 a J woman but I don't recall ever having made a declaration of intent or true love

Tongue down throat didn't always work tho

 

[just4fun]

I guess I'm just lucky.......

 

[Solong]

I take ur word for it Mr Neko lol

It's been a while since I tried to d8 a J woman but I don't recall ever having made a declaration of intent or true love

Tongue down throat didn't always work tho

I have had Japanese women ask me if she was my girlfriend? Which I would usually reply "Yes" to, irregardless of the true situation. Women can corner guys too... This is a kind of roundabout/indirect way to kokuhaku, that foreigners can experience and not realize there is more Japanese significance behind it.

The thing is that foreigners can have no clue about it whatsoever, and Japanese are usually not in anyway expecting traditional Japanese style declarations from foreigners. Nor has any Japanese woman I dated explained kokuhaku or explained what they were doing as kokuhaku. Which I thought is kind of weird, when you think about it. I learned of it and it was explained to me by male Japanese co-workers. So, it was something THEY were doing. This is a more formal and rigid style, where a certain check box must be crossed off. And I think partly creates more fear and trepidation among Japanese men, as they fear being formally rejected or are stuck mentally looping over the day and how they will say it. Another layer, another barrier.

As a foreigner, it's usually more fluid, casual, and informal. You are in a conversation and: tell her that you don't want her seeing other guys, tell her she is your girlfriend, or reply to her question or state that you are her boyfriend. Often usually done in a matter of factly type way and in a conversation.

Now with that typed, I agree with Mr. Cat in terms of clarifying your situation, combined with studying her actions. Where if you are not sure, ask. Have her speak her mind about where she thinks the relationship stands. But there is a trick to it. You don't want to corner her or pressure her, because she can start spewing LIES or create an absolute situation where "yes" or "no" decides right there if the relationship continues. I think the truth comes out better from Japanese women, when you are talking about relationships in general or about how you see your relationship in the future. The context of you adding her into the future with you, often creates a comfort level where she may talk about you in the same way, and then you have an understanding. If she is not adding you into her talks about the future, HUGE sign given.

And if going the kokuhaku route, it usually works a lot better AFTER you had sex with her at least 3 or more times. It's better as a CONFIRMATION of what you got going on. The worse failures are when the guy hasn't had sex with her and has very strong feelings, but she doesn't for him. Even after having sex, kokuhaku too soon is more likely to be disastrous. Similar to saying "I love you" in the Western context. It usually holds more weight, a little bit further along after a sexual relationship has been established. And the Western "I love you" exchange can REPLACE kokuhaku in the mind of the Japanese person (the more Westernized or into dating Westerners, the more so), as you have declared/confessed your feelings for each other.

There is also a variation of kokuhaku (as in confessing) where you state that you have strong feelings for her and want to have sex from now on. You are not declaring love or that you are offically boyfriend or girlfriend, but to start a sexual relationship (which implies you will become boyfriend and girlfriend).

As you have been on a few to several dates, and the guy doesn't know how to proceed with her except to ask. I've done this, by the way (3rd date last shot situations for me), and it can work. But, it creates a type of ultimatum, where "no" means the relationship is done. This is more for physically awkward women, where they agree to meet you and interact with you verbally very well, but resist any physical touching or hugging. But these relationships didn't last (and my swinger friends have told similar stories). Her physical coldness and awkwardness towards touching, usually translates to bad sex and relates to her having possible negative mental issues. I prefer not to deal with cold, emotionally negative, or sexually dysfunctional type women in long term relationships.

 

[Wwanderer]

Early on in this thread I complained that the numbered points in the OP are nearly all neither exclusive to Japanese women nor "secret" (actually they are more like blindingly obvious imo), and I stand by that view.

However, the thread has now wound its way to discussion of points and issues (kokuhaku and all the related tangents) that are peculiar to Japanese romantic culture and are little known by most Westerners. Indeed, I have learned a few things. That being my case, I retract my view that the whole thread is useless... It is sort of reverse thead-drift; usually such drift takes a conversation from some significant issue into irrlevant side issues, but this time it has produced a more on-target discussion imo.

-Ww