Skepticism

[Keiji]

Dam... I had to look up this word in a dictionary so I could share an advice. This message is a follow up to the Hipness talk by Minato Namikaze, you guys locked the thread before I could give some advice...that was too fast, maybe next time leave some time window before lock... Anyways...

I have always being a very skeptict person and while reading the whole thread from the beginning I asked myself...then "why not check out".

If the second call sounded doubtous... you had at least two options:

1. Check for the girl you wanted by having a friend call Hipness with the same request.
2. Call Hipness with another phone (like public phone) and if possible with covered cloth (like in the movies) with the same request as well.

You could have asked TAG to check out what the fuck is hipness doing and if anybody else actually got the girl open to appointment, you would have known. Didnt the girl you wanted had reviews in TAG written already?

 

[Minato Namikaze]

Dam... I had to look up this word in a dictionary so I could share an advice. This message is a follow up to the Hipness talk by Minato Namikaze, you guys locked the thread before I could give some advice...that was too fast, maybe next time leave some time window before lock... Anyways...

I have always being a very skeptict person and while reading the whole thread from the beginning I asked myself...then "why not check out".

If the second call sounded doubtous... you had at least two options:

1. Check for the girl you wanted by having a friend call Hipness with the same request.
2. Call Hipness with another phone (like public phone) and if possible with covered cloth (like in the movies) with the same request as well.

You could have asked TAG to check out what the fuck is hipness doing and if anybody else actually got the girl open to appointment, you would have known. Didn't the girl you wanted had reviews in TAG written already?

Thank you for your advice and for offering very helpful insights regarding the situation. It was actually upon my request to lock the thread as derailment was inevitable soon enough.

Anyways, no reviews yet. I believe she is a new face, I think. I haven't seen her before on the website when I first discovered her.

About your options 1 and 2, I've already gotten those covered before you thought about it, but I highly appreciate the effort of providing it. I have some other options laid out as well. Think of it as a contingency plan in case things go south. Always have a plan B.

However, I have no immediate plans of booking Hipness soon after that tiny verbal scuffle I had with the tencho. Again, options are plentiful.

Thank you very much for your input, @Keiji

 

[GoldenDalton]

Thank you for your advice and for offering very helpful insights regarding the situation. It was actually upon my request to lock the thread as derailment was inevitable soon enough.

Anyways, no reviews yet. I believe she is a new face, I think. I haven't seen her before on the website when I first discovered her.

About your options 1 and 2, I've already gotten those covered before you thought about it, but I highly appreciate the effort of providing it. I have some other options laid out as well. Think of it as a contingency plan in case things go south. Always have a plan B.

However, I have no immediate plans of booking Hipness soon after that tiny verbal scuffle I had with the tencho. Again, options are plentiful.

Thank you very much for your input, @Keiji

I read the thread and these are my thoughts- uninformed probably but here goes:

It seems to me like the telephone operator was very rude, unnecessarily so. I can't see what cultural norms you violated; the agency is the one who put up the info on the website. That's fine that they don't want to do a booking. It's their business. At the same time they are guilty of wasting the customer's time by posting false information online. That by itself is poor customer service. And if they've changed their policy to " no foreigners allowed" that's fine also- but state it on the site otherwise customers will still think the old policy still applies.

One reason japanese are so much more polite than westerners is that they are concerned about others saving face. And it seems like this guy was abnormally rude by not giving you an excuse- he made it seem like YOU were the problem, which is far from polite. And him cussing you without being cussed first- that's very rude.

But I think what would have set me off is him calling my home phone and hanging up. That's harassment. In my opinion that dramatically escalated the situation; playing around with people's lives, calling their home phone, can have life-altering comsequences. I doubt very much that japanese culture is tolerant of that either. If he was determined to keep you from making a booking, then that means they are already uninterested in winning the business of foreigners, in which case there's nothing you can do about it anyway.


Most japanese people tend to be more respectful than most Americans, but again, every culture has its fuck ups. Hell even in rural Iraq we found crackheads! But this guy shouldn't upset you long term. Screw him if he wants to give you a smart ass answer ( no reason to tell you!) which is about the most disrespectful thing you can say( it's worse than flat out saying " no foreigners," at least to me).

I know I am disagreeing with most- I have much less experience and maybe am not up to speed on cultural exchanges that take place. But trying to harrass you at your place of residence, is a very grave violation in my book.

Regardless of how they act in the future, I know they will never get any of my business ( sounds like they wouldn't want it in the first place). The place sounds like a disorganized mess and I can't trust those type of joints.

 

[psd]

One reason japanese are so much more polite than westerners is that they are concerned about others saving face. And it seems like this guy was abnormally rude by not giving you an excuse- he made it seem like YOU were the problem, which is far from polite. And him cussing you without being cussed first- that's very rude.

My view is exactly the opposite. He did make an excuse, she's not available. Any Japanese person would understand that he doesn't want to give the real reason, accept it and move on without demanding an explanation and especially not making a scene.

 

[Keiji]

Exactly. @psd got it right. But no one can blame somebody who doesnt understand Japan well enough. If the answer was "no". You just say okay, who is available then. And like any good customer. If you didnt get what you wanted first, you will be getting it once they (Hipness) realise what a big mistake was to refuse such a good client. But by making a big fuss now you dont have the slightest chance to get any service from Hipness, which without all the fight, would still be available. But now all is screwed. After all, we are talking about a "VERY CHEAP" provider.

 

[k1234k]

You gotta pick your battles, and there is no point in fighting a war you can't win.

A person may be in the right by asking why they are denied service, but if no answer is given, and if there is nothing tangible left to gain, you have to walk away.

At that point, you already lost the war, and if you keep trying to pursue it further, don't be surprised if you get firebombed out of spite.

 

[Expired Beef!]

I think you blew a load for no reason. Shit happens. I thought you were talking about this one gal I thought was bait. Real stunner, but is never available. But since it is a new girl, I might be wrong, but it might be like one time when there was this hot thai on there. For months, she was only available to J only, then she was available gaijin for about a week. Maybe more, but who's counting the days. Anyways, no means no. Don't ask for details.

 

[Keiji]

There is one possibility I would like to share so that nobody else remains hanging with doubts. This is the P4P "BUSSINESS". In bussiness, if your shop has the best product available, it will be offered to either the "regular" customers or the VIP clients as a privilege. While offering the less wanted to the new buyers. Imagine a VIP class customer can easily complain something like: "Hey I buy you for like 5 years every week and you dont give me "X"? But you do give it to a guy who just arrived? Okay...there are cases when you can get the best as a first timer (It happened to me countless times, I was just lucky.). Myself coming from a pure-bussiness family for generations...this sounds pretty standard procedure. I dont know if that particular girl is the "best" of Hipness. But just trying to share a chance of a possible reason of denial. Because its bussiness.

 

[Expired Beef!]

Kenji isn't that about what I was saying. Lol

 

[Keiji]

Also Hipness is a cheap provider of average what? ￥7.000? (If I were to sum-up all the money I have spent in my P4P life... I would probably be rich hahaha...oh wait...thats not funny...) ¥7.ooo is like buying a soft drink can at a vending machine. Here in TAG, there are members who can spend like ¥50.000- yens just on a blow job. So throwing out a couples of 7s sounds very logic in this bussiness.

 

[Keiji]

Kenji isn't that about what I was saying. Lol

Yeap, happens quite often in forums when more than one is typing a reply nearly at the same time.

 

[Expired Beef!]

I should post the dudes post about how he blew 15k on P4P.

 

[Expired Beef!]

Yeap, happens quite often in forums when more than one is typing a reply nearly at the same time.

Also Hipness is a cheap provider of average what? ￥7.000? (If I were to sum-up all the money I have spent in my P4P life... I would probably be rich hahaha...oh wait...thats not funny...) ¥7.ooo is like buying a soft drink can at a vending machine. Here in TAG, there are members who can spend like ¥50.000- yens just on a blow job. So throwing out a couples of 7s sounds very logic in this bussiness.

50,000 yen blow job! It better have had something special.

 

[GoldenDalton]

My view is exactly the opposite. He did make an excuse, she's not available. Any Japanese person would understand that he doesn't want to give the real reason, accept it and move on without demanding an explanation and especially not making a scene.

That would be ok if they didn't specifically advertise the girl in question as being available on the website. At the very least, they decieve the customers and/or waste the customer's time.

Plus with her being listed as available online, yet not available, the customer looks bad. It makes it seem like the customer is at fault.

I actually experienced something similar when I was a teenager. There was a sale of certain items at the store I worked at. The corrupt staff in grocery were hiding the items and trying to corner them for themselves and their friends, despite the sale being advertised in the paper ( a big deal in that shitty town). Naturally the customers wanted an explanation, as it looked like they were purposely excluding people for arbitrary reasons, which is shameful for most people.

Of course, he didn't just refuse this girl, he refused to allow ANY bookings at sll, despite the place being listed as accepting foreigners. Again fine if they don't axcept foreigners, just say so upfront. It's extremely discourteous to String a customer along and wastes their time, which stands out in a country in which people are über polite.

With all that said- there are obviously aspects to this I sm not getting. You know much more than I do here, so I'm not trying to start any beef as I'm outmatched. But " no reason to tell you," sounds about like the rudest thing ever to me. Like " nanny Benny boo boo." That's probably a language issue.

 

[GoldenDalton]

My view is exactly the opposite. He did make an excuse, she's not available. Any Japanese person would understand that he doesn't want to give the real reason, accept it and move on without demanding an explanation and especially not making a scene.

Just as a general Question.

Being a noob, it's kind of strange to me that a customer would have to worry about offending a service provider. Is that the norm in Japan as da as customer service is concerned? I always felt like japanese customer service was top notch, better than U.S. Customer service, which is still good, with euro countries rating poorly.

That's mainly what's throwing me off- the customer issue. So damn mysterious lol.

 

[Minato Namikaze]

Yeah, this is my only two cents in this.

But I think what would have set me off is him calling my home phone and hanging up. That's harassment. In my opinion that dramatically escalated the situation; playing around with people's lives, calling their home phone, can have life-altering comsequences. I doubt very much that japanese culture is tolerant of that either. If he was determined to keep you from making a booking, then that means they are already uninterested in winning the business of foreigners, in which case there's nothing you can do about it anyway.

 

[Keiji]

That would be ok if they didn't specifically advertise the girl in question as being available on the website. At the very least, they decieve the customers and/or waste the customer's time.

Plus with her being listed as available online, yet not available, the customer looks bad. It makes it seem like the customer is at fault.

[...]

Of course, he didn't just refuse this girl, he refused to allow ANY bookings at sll, despite the place being listed as accepting foreigners. Again fine if they don't axcept foreigners, just say so upfront. It's extremely discourteous to String a customer along and wastes their time, which stands out in a country in which people are über polite.

With all that said- there are obviously aspects to this I sm not getting. You know much more than I do here, so I'm not trying to start any beef as I'm outmatched. But " no reason to tell you," sounds about like the rudest thing ever to me. Like " nanny Benny boo boo." That's probably a language issue.

With small shops such as Hipness, you cant really relay strongly on their website because its self-handled. I dont know who is the guy messing with their site but maintenance fuck-ups are very common. They could have simply missed and listed the wrong girl. If you look at other small agencies homepages, you will find the exact issue as well, so its not just Hipness with a conspiracy of sorts.

Regarding the refusal of other providers, you will have to re-read the original thread. The guy on the phone originally suggested alternative options right after saying that the first was un-available but it was because of the argument that only "at the end" he ended refusing any service at all.

 

[GoldenDalton]

With small shops such as Hipness, you cant really relay strongly on their website because its self-handled. I dont know who is the guy messing with their site but maintenance fuck-ups are very common. They could have simply missed and listed the wrong girl. If you look at other small agencies homepages, you will find the exact issue as well, so its not just Hipness with a conspiracy of sorts.

Regarding the refusal of other providers, you will have to re-read the original thread. The guy on the phone originally suggested alternative options right after saying that the first was un-available but it was because of the argument that only "at the end" he ended refusing any service at all.

I guess with these kinds of shops the websites aren't going to be expected to be accurate all the time? If that's the case that makes sense.

 

[Keiji]

Yeah, just put yourself on the shop staff's place. Imagine yourself having to update a girl's status everytime she takes an outcall and when she comes back from 30 minues sessions each time...how many customers she takes on a single day, plus that multiplied on all providers a shop has. Between a webpage and a guy who answers the calls, its the phone guy who knows better. And you cant just expect both guys being seated next to each other, assuming they were different persons and not just one guy handling both the calls and the webpage. The guy that deals with webdesign will not be interested to be sitted next to the phone guy...waste of time.

 

[psd]

Just as a general Question.

Being a noob, it's kind of strange to me that a customer would have to worry about offending a service provider. Is that the norm in Japan as da as customer service is concerned? I always felt like japanese customer service was top notch, better than U.S. Customer service, which is still good, with euro countries rating poorly.

That's mainly what's throwing me off- the customer issue. So damn mysterious lol.

This is a cultural matter. Japanese don't say no, they are very careful not to say anything that would upset people, and they are extremely indirect with their language. I have conversations with people where I've understood every single word but completely missed the sub context - well to me it's a sub context, to Japanese it's immediately clear what's going on. When someone is angry they say "chotto"(small), when they don't/can't do something they say "muzukashii" (difficult). Japanese make lame excuses and that means no, and it's rude but also makes look like an idiot if you push the issue.

You can guess all you like what the underlying reason is, maybe she really was unavailable, or maybe she won't take certain customers. Maybe the the phone operator is an asshole with a small dick. It doesn't matter, he said no, and owes no explanation. Pushing the issue leads to the situation that was described.



Disclaimer: I'm painting with a broad brush, I'm not a cultural expert and I'm not condoning the operator's behavior.

 

[GoldenDalton]

This is a cultural matter. Japanese don't say no, they are very careful not to say anything that would upset people, and they are extremely indirect with their language. I have conversations with people where I've understood every single word but completely missed the sub context - well to me it's a sub context, to Japanese it's immediately clear what's going on. When someone is angry they say "chotto"(small), when they don't/can't do something they say "muzukashii" (difficult). Japanese make lame excuses and that means no, and it's rude but also makes look like an idiot if you push the issue.

You can guess all you like what the underlying reason is, maybe she really was unavailable, or maybe she won't take certain customers. Maybe the the phone operator is an asshole with a small dick. It doesn't matter, he said no, and owes no explanation. Pushing the issue leads to the situation that was described.



Disclaimer: I'm painting with a broad brush, I'm not a cultural expert and I'm not condoning the operator's behavior.

That makes more sense then. I see what you mean now. It's considered rude to push for more clarity- you're supposed to gather your answer from the context.

" no reason to tell you" makes more sense there. It sounded much different to me earlier. But calling he mans private phone still had to be dealt with- I guess japanese are not so serious sbotr such, being less crime- prone.

 

[Keiji]

Personally:

I think that the Japanese alone will always be fine. The problem comes when a portion of the Japanese meets the "West". From many philosophical perspective I have always doubted how "beneficial" could be "embracing cultural diversity" as people here like to call it, specially the one that involves Americans...here comes my skepticism again... And you are talking about the second kind here. By the way, I love Americans, just in case, but the good ones only.

 

[meiji]

There's a big cultural disconnect between Japan and the West.

The Japanese have a saying that "The customer is a god"

Americans have a saying that "The customer is always right"

These don't mean the same thing. In Japan, businesses (legitimate ones, anyway) generally provide very high levels of service, employees are presentable if not impeccably dressed, and they talk 'up' to their customers (keigo Japanese, etc). I've also found that many businesses (again, legitimate ones) don't go out of the way to set extortionate prices even when they could. Examples: Concessions at movie theaters are a lot cheaper than the US, Narita's exchange rates are usually good, etc.

But there's a limit to what businesses will do. There's lots of examples of restaurants that refuse to do substitutions, or, say, make an iced coffee when they serve coffee, have ice, and a water glass. This is primarily due to businesses wanting to provide the appearance of excellent service and an excellent product. In the case of the iced coffee, they know that their coffee tastes good, but they do not know if their coffee tastes good when it's iced. From the Japanese customer perspective, they want a great experience, and know that if they pick from the business's offerings they know that they will be happy. If a business is, say, out of one of their offerings, customers generally find a heartfelt apology to be acceptable.

From an American "customer is always right" perspective, not only do we expect things the way we want it, but if we can't get that, we expect an explanation and we expect some sort of recompense. Both of these latter things are pretty rare anywhere outside North America. It's often difficult, for example, to get a refund on goods in Europe when the item isn't defective. In the US, a customer asking to 'speak with a manager' for the business generally just means handing a customer off to someone that is more skilled with acknowledging a customer's concerns, deflecting the customer's demands for an explanation, and if needed, someone that is authorized to provide some sort of token item to provide "customer satisfaction".

None of these roles exist in Japan, so when a relatively new customer even politely asks for an explanation, someone running Japanese business a) isn't expecting that behavior from a customer and b) finds such an interaction to be horribly rude if not insulting. By repeatedly bringing up that a girl isn't available despite being advertised, you are calling them out for false advertising or at the very least not being able to manage their business affairs, and demanding that they admit to one of these accusations, causing a loss of face to a random stranger. Once you start demanding explanations, the customer experience has already gone off the rails, and that's before you start getting into the name calling.

The concern with being 'that guy' comes in when an org has multiple encounters with foreigners expecting that they are 'always right', and when some of those customer experiences go off the rails, the tencho of the place starts to wonder whether it's worth it to continue allowing foreigners as customers.

So yes, I'm asking people to turn the other cheek when dealing with P4P in Japan if it's an agency you don't deal with regularly. There's plenty of opportunity to (constructively) provide feedback here on TAG and elsewhere.

 

[Expired Beef!]

Maybe means no. But it's time to cull this quest to meaning out of a one sided story. We don't know the rationale behind the J man nor the girl in question. It's like a dude that got kicked out of KFC for bringing Moss burger food in. I have never been treated that way, but I have been told not to drink 7 Eleven Coffee at Family Mart. Dame was the word used. I complied and moved on. Well, at the end of the day, that was out of the blue because everyday for 6 months I did it. It was a old dude that said it. So I took this up with a female manager, bilingual. She didn't defend him nor defend me. So I pointed out a man With Starbucks coffee eating Family Mart food. All was well. Sometimes in clothing stores I let the manager know my disdain for not doing there job and getting an item for me from another shop and sent to the shop closest to me. I take it all the way to the corporate office in wherever I can and have gotten apologies and better service, but never banned. I even took an event of being accused of theft high up the chain, got an apology but never banned. So in general, I don't understand this exchange. I have argued with Japanese people and we disagreed, but never have had such a falling out. I guess I have been in a good battle before, but not to the point of banishment.

 

[MossBoss]

When gaijins are aggressive to Japanese people - the gaijins will lose out in the end. Where I worked before - if the gaijins were aggressive the Japanese were usually polite and apologized even if they weren't in the wrong. More often than not however the Japanese remembered the aggressive behavior and screwed over the gaijins at a later date.

When non Japanese get angry at doormen or receptionists it reduces the possibility of service for the next foreigner customers.

I have been refused service at dozens of places. Sometimes the doormen are rude, but I'm always polite.

One time in Koenji I was refused service at a pink salon. I exchanged small talk for a couple of minutes and the doormen eventually let me in. I'm sure others have similar experiences.

Biting your tongue, is one of the most important skills you need to survive in Japan.