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[Wwanderer]

Besides tax breaks, are any of these exclusive to marriage but not to co-habiting?

Right, there are functional equivalents to marriage which are not legally marriage that have most of the advantages...I just got tired of writing phrases like "long-term committed partnership" and mean "marriage" to include marriage equivalents. And they can have most of the financial advantages of a marriage (minus tax breaks, family insurance plans, qualification for larger loans and such).

However, if co-habiting partners don't feel a serious and long-term commitment to each other, they are not likely to merge their finances (thus giving the one with the lower income an advantage) or sacrifice their own earning power as an investment in the other person's. The classic example of this is when one member of a couple works to support both while the other completes schooling that will give him/her access to much higher paying jobs. If the other person is basically just roommate and fab, they are not likely to make big investments in your mutual financial future.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

To be clear, I don't think marriage is necessarily/generally a good idea for everyone and definitely wouldn't urge someone to get married if they don't believe they would be happy doing so. So, partly I'm just being a devil's advocate here. However, I'd say that anyone who sees marriage as an entirely bad thing with no good points (or the reverse) is not seeing the full picture realistically. The whole issue is full of trade-offs. Partly it is a gamble; some gamblers err by focusing on the risks of losing, some by equally single-minded concentrating on the possibility of winning.

-Ww

 

[Sudsy]

My plan is to have a sugar toy boy. I'm actually quite looking forward to it.

Sounds like you need to double down on your academics and become a professor of chemistry at a decent university so you can make certain students work for "extra credit".

 

[DJV]

I'm married, in love, and we have kids that are cute and smart little devils who love their parents.
My wife fixed and still fixes a huge numbers of things that went wrong in my life. I do the same for her.
I live in a multicultural marriage that brings many intellectual challenges, satisfactions and frustrations, and I'll never get bored of any of this.
There are ups and downs, of course..
As per the marriage, may I try the (intentionnally farfetched) comparison with the military : you can play soldier in the backyard, or enlist and see the world

 

[roots reggae]

I can't imagine ever getting married. If you are/were married, why did you decide to do it?

Would you make the same choice again if you had a chance to relive your life?

Nice idea for a thread!!! I need to sleep on this one.

 

[namae]

Yeah, there aren't many of them, but no one I know in my age bracket (over 60 let's say) whe never married or took a "permanent" SO is a happy camper now. Does this mean you should marry at an earlier age when the institution doesn't attract you? Probably not imo. But you might want to keep in mind where you are headed. Those who are perfectly self-sufficient on their own when they are young do not necessarily end up that way decades later...rarely so as far as I can judge.

-Ww

Maybe that should read keep an "open mind".

Always some interesting chat on TAG by some of the regulars. One thing I noticed is that some of the younger members have some fixed ideas on a whole variety of issues -- marriage and chldren in this particular debate. They remind me of, ME. I am not exactly the Yoda of the board, but reflecting on my ( short) life, I have had some pretty hardline fixed positions at various stages of my life - that subsequently got torn up and put in the rubbish bin. The world changes, people change and you will change. I think smart people change. 5, 10 or 20 years from now you may find yourself laughing at positions you held. Life would be pretty boring if we had it all worked out when we were 18.

 

[User#16452]

.

 

[namae]

This is a good point. Marriage has certainly become a lot better than it once was by moving away from couverture.

However, if my views were the opposite (I want marriage and children), would you still advise an open mind?

Definitely. Marriage ( and equivalent relationships) are not for everyone. And even if they were for you, I would be advising you to enjoy the freedom of your single life ( ...and it seems you are except maybe for a shortage of close mates in Tokyo)....plenty of time before thoughts of marriage and children need enter the equation.

 

[scorpioni6ths]

I was raised Catholic (even attended Catholic university, not the seminary but there was one close by), by strict parents. At the right age (and maybe with enough savings) we are told to get married. If your age is outside the range of the calendar, max 31, you are considered old ... I am old. I really didn't get the social and parental pressures of having to marry. Then there is the pressure of carrying forward the "family name".

Since I'm the eldest I son, I was expected to marry first. It was my duty to give my parents their first grandchild. That didn't happen as I was too busy with work. My second sibling "rescued" me in a way. She got married and I have 2 nephews now. Parents still ask me when I will get married. I just smile at them. I've seen some of my past flings having a happy married life. I've also seen very close friends turned inside out by failed marriages.

After being so closed minded for several decades, I love the freedom I have now. I may or may not marry. If I were to get married, I'd prefer it to be open. I've always described myself "living in a hut by the sea" when I get old(er). Need to find the perfect spot soon.

 

[Kegger]

I got married at 25. Wasn't really in love, but seemed like a good match. Now 20+ years on, and still not really in love, but still a good match.

However...
One of my big reasons for getting married early was that I wanted kids while I was young enough to do all sorts of activities with them, and once they were old enough to leave the nest, I'd still be young enough to experience some of the things I sacrificed in my younger days.

One of my big thrills in life is watching my kids play sports, and still be young enough to participate in them together.
I made a few personal sacrifices in my 20s and 30s. I saw my friends traveling the world, living free exciting lives and it was a bit hard at times.
But now things seem to be kicking in. My kids are older, and no longer need the attention they once did. I'm financially secure, I've traveled around the world twice in the last 18 months.

I see a few of my friends starting families in their 40s, and they are going to be over 60 before they are free of child raising responsibilities.

It's kind of like having a plate full of food in front of you. Some will eat their favorite item on the plate first and work their way down. I start with the least appetizing item and save the best for last.
I'm not saying my way is right, but it works for me.

 

[Wwanderer]

they are going to be over 60 before they are free of child raising responsibilities.

Yeah, hard to have any fun after you hit 60, right @just4fun ?!

But yeah...sounds like you have made clever and good choices.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

One thing I noticed is that some of the younger members have some fixed ideas on a whole variety of issues -- marriage and chldren in this particular debate. They remind me of, ME. I am not exactly the Yoda of the board, but reflecting on my ( short) life, I have had some pretty hardline fixed positions at various stages of my life - that subsequently got torn up and put in the rubbish bin.

This is an important and interesting point imo and one that I've thought about off-and-on over the years. Specifically I've noticed that many/most people have very absolute and one-sided views on many major life decisions (such as getting married or having children but lots of others too) when rationally there are clear pros and cons of the choices. It is as though they are suffering from massive confirmation bias and can only (easily) see (and even remember) whichever ones support their inclination.

It seems to me that there is an obvious psychological explanation: It is quite intimidating and stressful to make major decisions that are going to deeply influence (or even determine) the whole course of your future life, and realizing that you are taking a gamble, that you could very easily be making the wrong choice, is surely scary and makes the choice all the more stressful. Thus the more the person can see only the factors that favor one option and disfavor the other(s), the more confident and comfortable he/she is in making the choice.

I think that this applies to people at all ages in fact. I see it in my age cohort a lot with people deciding when and how to retire. But it probably afflicts younger people the most because they have many more such choices to make (a sometimes overwhelming steady stream of them in fact) and perhaps also because they have not yet had the experience in seeing how wrong one's expectations of the future can be and how much one can come to regret what seemed like obvious choices at the time.

-Ww

 

[Whateveryouwant]

I feel like marriage, LTR, whatever, is what you make it. If you are tied down its because you have let yourself be so and have fallen in to the trap of what it is to be married according to social norms. I know a few couples who live completely separate lives when it comes to career, travel, money etc, but they share the same values and goals so are able to maintain their connection and encourage each other.

Having previously been married I still believe in it as a concept, however; if I decide to go down that path again I would want do so with my independence intact and would expect my prospective partner to do the same.

So while I think there are benefits to both being single or married I really feel it depends on the stage of ones life, who the prospective partner how your values and goals align.

 

[User#8628]

I got married at 25. Wasn't really in love, but seemed like a good match. Now 20+ years on, and still not really in love, but still a good match.

However...
One of my big reasons for getting married early was that I wanted kids while I was young enough to do all sorts of activities with them, and once they were old enough to leave the nest, I'd still be young enough to experience some of the things I sacrificed in my younger days.

One of my big thrills in life is watching my kids play sports, and still be young enough to participate in them together.
I made a few personal sacrifices in my 20s and 30s. I saw my friends traveling the world, living free exciting lives and it was a bit hard at times.
But now things seem to be kicking in. My kids are older, and no longer need the attention they once did. I'm financially secure, I've traveled around the world twice in the last 18 months.

I see a few of my friends starting families in their 40s, and they are going to be over 60 before they are free of child raising responsibilities.

It's kind of like having a plate full of food in front of you. Some will eat their favorite item on the plate first and work their way down. I start with the least appetizing item and save the best for last.
I'm not saying my way is right, but it works for me.

This also appeals to me.

 

[DocMcStuffins]

Being an older dad, the biggest negative for me is lack of energy. Truly worried about when my son is a teen.

Pros: more wisdom to share, more wealth, career is more established so less stress.

Pros and cons, not sure which I recommend.

 

[namae]

Being an older dad, the biggest negative for me is lack of energy. Truly worried about when my son is a teen.

Pros: more wisdom to share, more wealth, career is more established so less stress.

Pros and cons, not sure which I recommend.

The grass is always greener.

 

[User#16452]

.

 

[Wwanderer]

Actually, I would argue that there is more value in this system. Women live longer than men and half of all women over 65 in the US are widows. Setting myself in a situation where I am independent and able to change everything if I so wish is much less of gamble than a marriage that might end, for whatever reason. Married people are also much more likely to depend on their spouse and neglect their network of friends. When their partner dies they lose everything and are put in an unfamilar situation. By finding value instead in multiple people there is much less of a risk.

Yes, surely a long-term group of close and supportive friends can also serve many of the functions/roles of a spouse (though not all of them, as far as I have ever witnessed), and as you say, such a group of people is not likely to suddenly disappear on you (by death or divorce). However, acquiring and maintaining such a strong network of long-term friendships in the modern (highly mobile) world is easier said than done for most people as far as I can see. Anyway, there are pros and cons to both choices imo, and what you say above is among them.

-Ww

 

[User#16452]

.

 

[Solong]

I can't imagine ever getting married. If you are/were married, why did you decide to do it?

Would you make the same choice again if you had a chance to relive your life?

I think a lot of marriages are about social pressure, with a strong dose of friends and/or family. After that, it's often about wanting to have kids. Here, a lot men and particularly women are conflicted. They roll the dice, and then it "just happens", so must do the "right thing".

In modern society and large populations, there really isn't any need to feel you must get married. Especially with the traditional restrictions many marriages brings. For many men, I advise NOT to, unless he really, really thought about it and understands all the negatives. Particularly about how many Western divorce courts will unfairly smash a man.

 

[RandomTokyoGuy]

For many men, I advise NOT to, unless he really, really thought about it and understands all the negatives. Particularly about how many Western divorce courts will unfairly smash a man.

Speaking of bad own experiences? Where I come from, and that seems to be true in many European countries, the burden is equally shared. The economically stronger side has to compensate the economical weaker side. In most cases it are the women who get compensated, but that is because it's usually the women who make sacrifices with their career to raise children.

On the other hand even if you are not married, but in a long-term marriage like relationship, often similar responsibilities can result.

I'm not married nor have I ever been, but I'm not opposed to the idea. If I find the right match, then I'm ready to proceed, but finding such a match isn't trivial and since I made a relatively big sacrifice in my earlier life on the premise of a relationship that didn't work out in the end, I'm quite reluctant to repeat that.

 

[Wwanderer]

While I do not disagree that most people filter out what they don't like, I feel that by by encouraging people to go against absolute views that you are re-enforcing the idea that there are only two choice when it comes to children/marriage: be pregnant/married or maybe be pregnant/married in the future.

I don't really follow the above. As a simple matter of fact and aside from the possibility of having oneself irreversibly sterilized (in the case of having children), aren't those indeed the only two possible choices? You can't exactly choose now to never change your mind in the future about something, especially since many of us know of numerous cases in which people have changed their minds about matters on which they once had "absolute views", as @namae pointed out above..

While marriage is a little more flexible than children, I would still argue that being confident in one's choice (an absolute view) is not necessarily the evil it might seem.

Oh, I definitely would NOT say that it is ***evil*** or anything remotely like that, only that it is often mistaken.

Moreover, it doesn't really matter in a practical sense. It would be obviously idiotic to do something that you don't wish to do simply because you *might* change your mind in the future. So whether or not you you consider it possible that you will later change your mind, you still have to make current decisions based on your current view/opinion. It only matters if you take some action that somehow takes away your freedom to make a different choice in the future...sort of implying that you don't trust your future self to follow your wishes (which would be kind of weird imo).

I think it is hard to convince older folks like myself that someone's absolute views are unchangeable because most of us have been around long enough to see people (frequently including ourselves!) with apparently equally strong absolute views end up changing their minds as the years and decades pass.

In the current context I definitely know of this happening to multiple women who firmly believed that they would never want children during some early stage of their life but who ultimately changed their minds. In the happy cases, this change of opinion occurred before their child bearing years were passed, but I also know of cases in which it was not until they were far too old to become pregnant. In the saddest such case I know, the woman (now in her 60s) cannot even bear to hear other people talk about their children as it drives her to tears and (she believes) can bring on periods of depression; she literally asks her friends not to mention their children to her. But still, it doesn't matter. It would be crazy to have a child now simply because you *might* feel like this woman (who is surely an unusual case) decades from now.

I suppose one can look at one's past history of changes in opinions as supporting an absolutely confident view or not. In other words, if you have never changed your mind about any strongly held opinion in response to new information and experiences, that would support a belief that you never will in the future either (though never with 100% confidence of course). Whereas if your opinions and preferences have been less than totally rigid and unchanging in the past, that suggests that future changes are quite possible.

-Ww

 

[DJV]

I don't really follow the above. As a simple matter of fact and aside from the possibility of having oneself irreversibly sterilized (in the case of having children), aren't those indeed the only two possible choices? You can't exactly choose now to never change your mind in the future about something, especially since many of us know of numerous cases in which people have changed their minds about matters on which they once had "absolute views", as @namae pointed out above..



Oh, I definitely would NOT say that it is ***evil*** or anything remotely like that, only that it is often mistaken.

Moreover, it doesn't really matter in a practical sense. It would be obviously idiotic to do something that you don't wish to do simply because you *might* change your mind in the future. So whether or not you you consider it possible that you will later change your mind, you still have to make current decisions based on your current view/opinion. It only matters if you take some action that somehow takes away your freedom to make a different choice in the future...sort of implying that you don't trust your future self to follow your wishes (which would be kind of weird imo).

I think it is hard to convince older folks like myself that someone's absolute views are unchangeable because most of us have been around long enough to see people (frequently including ourselves!) with apparently equally strong absolute views end up changing their minds as the years and decades pass.

In the current context I definitely know of this happening to multiple women who firmly believed that they would never want children during some early stage of their life but who ultimately changed their minds. In the happy cases, this change of opinion occurred before their child bearing years were passed, but I also know of cases in which it was not until they were far too old to become pregnant. In the saddest such case I know, the woman (now in her 60s) cannot even bear to hear other people talk about their children as it drives her to tears and (she believes) can bring on periods of depression; she literally asks her friends not to mention their children to her. But still, it doesn't matter. It would be crazy to have a child now simply because you *might* feel like this woman (who is surely an unusual case) decades from now.

I suppose one can look at one's past history of changes in opinions as supporting an absolutely confident view or not. In other words, if you have never changed your mind about any strongly held opinion in response to new information and experiences, that would support a belief that you never will in the future either (though never with 100% confidence of course). Whereas if your opinions and preferences have been less than totally rigid and unchanging in the past, that suggests that future changes are quite possible.

-Ww

Thanks Ww : it's a great post and really in the same direction as my own experience/testimony.

About this :

It would be crazy to have a child now simply because you *might* feel like this woman (who is surely an unusual case) decades from now.

It's true, I think also that it would be "not that crazy" (and up to "wise" depending on each person) to let himself/herself be exposed to paths/scenarios where children are a possibility.
Sometimes some courses of events can just defeat any preconcieved belief, and it's not nothing to be affraid or ashamed of.

Like you might date people who are unsure about wanting children, instead of only people convinced they don't want any.

 

[just4fun]

Besides tax breaks, are any of these exclusive to marriage but not to co-habiting?

Well, the world is changing everyday and "shacking up" has been around longer than marriage vows so probably down the road there'll be less and less differences legally. The air tight pre-nup though will never go away.

 

[just4fun]

Yeah, hard to have any fun after you hit 60, right @just4fun ?!

But yeah...sounds like you have made clever and good choices.

-Ww

Fun? What's that?