.

[User#16452]

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[John Chavers]

 

[TAG Manager]

Unfortunately, I struggle to find bisexual men, particularly those open to polyamory.

Struggle to find *any* or just not the class or type your looking for?

 

[User#16452]

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[TAG Manager]

*Any*. I did one post an ad for it but all the replies consisted of "I'd love to have a threesome with you... But can we change it to two women??".

Hmm.. sounds typical, sadly.

 

[User#16452]

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[Wwanderer]

A secret fantasy of mine is to have ...

Posting something on an open website is certainly an unintuitive strategy for keeping it secret!

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I posted previously about my experience of an open relationship where everyone was seeing a few people at once.

Has anyone else had an experience of polyamory or an open relationship?

If polyamory is defined according to the first line of your post, then my answer is yes, I have...more than once. The first instances for me were in the hippie "free love" culture/environment of the late 1960s. But I'm not sure what to say about them in general. They vary a lot...a whole lot...in their quality. They can definitely be tiring, as you remarked in another thread.

Fwiiw, I am not sure that everyone who is interested/involved in polyamory would consider simply dating or seeing or having sex with someone as sufficient to count them. In other words, I think some put a lot of emphasis on the "amor", the love, part of the word and so only consider it true polyamory if it involves very serious romantic connections with multiple people (who in turn have very serious romantic connections with multiple people etc). Personally I have no particular opinion on this semantic issue, but I did hear views along these lines from a young French lover I once had (briefly). This same women said that in her (considerable, I think) experience, the more people who were involved in an open polyamorous set of relationships, the more time was spent on discussing everyone's feelings and the less on having sex or doing anything else! I think that is both funny and plausible.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

I posted previously about my experience of an open relationship where everyone was seeing a few people at once.

Has anyone else had an experience of polyamory or an open relationship?

A secret fantasy of mine is to have a bisexual threesome relationship with two other guys. Unfortunately, I struggle to find bisexual men, particularly those open to polyamory.

I've had a number of open and polyamorous relationships with women or in the swinger context.

My opinion is that for a guy, it's a bit difficult, because women tend to leverage sex in the "negotiations" about it or fake sexual purity due to internalized social pressure. That is, if a guy mentions wanting to have an open relationship too soon, women tend to break it off or act like they are shocked at such a thing is possible or that any guy could ever ask (like it was an insult to her).

Consequently, I'm most successful with bisexual women in establishing such relationships or with women where we went to swinger parties or clubs together. Because in these contexts, the truth is exposed (like admitting she is bisexual in a conversation) or the woman can't lie. It's hard for a woman to pretend to be mother Teresa or "not that type of girl", after we just came back from a sex orgy or 3 way.

Honesty about sex and sexuality then becomes the norm of the relationship, as she can't lie about what the guy saw her do. It is then possible to put open relationships or polyamory on the table, and then come to an agreement about it.

User#16452, in my opinion, it looks like you would have to be friends with gay guys or go to gay clubs. Not swinger clubs by the way, as that's more often bisexual women, instead of bisexual men.

However, such women are known as "fag hags". Apparently, this isn't a complimentary term. My guess would be that you have to be accepted in this type of group circles. Then you can visually filter out which men are totally gay versus who are bisexual and would play with women.

I think for a woman, it would probably be easier for you to talk with guys in gay clubs and have them openly admit who is bisexual. Maybe even tell by how they react to your presence as a woman, in such environments. Maybe ni-chome in Shinjuku?

You might also have to "push" the issue where you are invited to an apartment or hotel with gay and bisexual guys having sex, and since they know you, then you can join in. After that point, after sex, you could probably negotiate relationship terms with bisexual guys.

The other thing, which some women don't seem to be aware of, is there is a much stronger line between gay and heterosexual sex among men. I say this, because some women or newbies say silly and ridiculous comments to heterosexual guys, even in swinger circles. They don't know or haven't learned the difference.

You are very much not likey going to get firmly heterosexual men to turn bisexual for you. Rather, he is already gay or bisexual, not he will do gay acts because you say or wish so.

It appears those men that engage in gay sex, have to define their masculinity in a fundamentally different way or effeminize themselves. Where women appear to have less of this type of machismo problem. If she has lesbian sex or heterosexual sex, she still defines herself as a woman and the same person. Men tend to have a different thinking.

 

[Tom Clumsy]

my friend says he's bisexual to cover up for being full-time gay LOL

 

[Curacao]

Solong, I am pretty sure that there is a lot of evidence that a lot of guys who identify as straight get turned on when watching gay porn. So on the one hand I think people's tastes are more flexible than many people imagine. On the other hand I know from personal experience that they are not completely flexible. Like, I was always intrigued by shemales for as long as I can remember. And when I put my curiosity to the test it turned out that, very surprisingly, I have no problem with sucking cock if it belongs to someone who looks like a woman. But, when I decided to investigate further it turns out there is a point at which I can't go any further - I have no interest in guys, just new halves and some very feminine cross dressers (interestingly - to me at least - 'feminine' here refers just as much to their body language as their appearance). So maybe the reason that guys in swinger clubs are less likely to be open to guy on guy stuff is simply that they are more likely to have experimented a lot sexually and therefore to have found their own limits.

As to the original post, my own yearning would be to have a female partner who loves having sex with other people. But I would find the involvement of a permanent third partner too difficult I think.

 

[John Chavers]

I didn't realise you were a SATC fan, John Chavers. Would you consider yourself a Carrie, Miranda, Charlotte or Samantha?

Samantha in person, but Carrie online.

 

[Solong]

Solong, I am pretty sure that there is a lot of evidence that a lot of guys who identify as straight get turned on when watching gay porn.

I think you have to be careful with such an argument. A guy can claim he is straight, but be bisexual or gay. However, there are men who are exclusively straight and do NOT get turned on by gay porn or acts. This has been proven in various clinical tests.

They would test for the difference between gay and heterosexual men by hooking sensors to their penis and having them watch gay and heterosexual porn. Primarily heterosexual men, didn't like gay porn. But there is a range, not just on or off.

Transexuality complicates the issue even more. However, the actual sex with a pre-op transexual is still arguably gay sex. Meaning men who engage in sex with transsexuals are arguably bisexual. That is, they may do gay sex or acts, but are also still attracted to feminine features, femininity, and women too.

Another interesting thing about such tests is they have caught many women lying. They would hook sensors to their vaginas, and ask questions before they watched porn. What women would verbally say they didn't like, could be very different from how their vagina responded. Demonstrating the social "filters" that many women have.

Sexuality is however not rigid between 2 extremes, only straight and only gay. This is where some people, more so religious or so-called conservatives, get confused.

Meaning there is a range between, that varies between 100% gay to bisexuals to 100% heterosexual. This was explained by the famous biologist and sexologist, Kinsey.

There is the argument that humans are bisexual by default, then socially conditioned to choose heterosexuality. On their side, they point to men in prison, who may "temporary turn gay" and then flip back to heterosexual when released. On the other side, there are those that argue sexual preference is set at birth. That is, being "born gay". Often, this side makes the dubious argument that bisexuals are really just gays in denial. This appears also for political reasons, to increase their support base or perceived numbers.

Be that as it may, there are people who are exclusively heterosexual. By genetics or choice, you can't turn them or won't "turn gay", and regardless of the situation. And there are exclusively gay people, that won't "turn heterosexual". But, there is a lot of MIDDLE area (shown by Kinsey scale).

My argument is that you simply can't tell by looking at people or even believe what people say, which way they might go. Because of the strong social conditioning or people saying whatever seems acceptable.

I've had bisexual girlfriends blatantly lie to me, when I probed the issues via questions in earlier dates. Then when we were in a sex orgy or swinger party on later dates, she is happily licking another woman's vagina. And the opposite happens. Where she says that she is "open-minded" or open to the idea, then when the opportunity comes, doesn't do it. Actions always speak louder than words or guesses.

Rather, you have to see them in action or put them in that situation. So with User#16452, I argue she needs to be around gay guys who will likely have sex with each other, then filter out bisexuals who are attracted to her. A woman wanting to see gay sex acts between men, is unlikely to see such by hanging around men who claim to be heterosexual, are sexually inexperienced, or confused about their sexual orientation. Better she hang around actual or apparently gay men and openly bisexual men. And I think she would need to be proactive about it, unless she gets lucky, where she makes the effort to go find them or put herself among them.

(Kinsey chart)

(Kinsey chart)

 

[Sinapse]

I've never really had experience turning things from a monogamous relationship to something more. Every time I tried to introduce other girls or people into the relationship after a few meets, the girl wasn't up for it because she liked me too much by then. So, to lay out a counterpoint to Solong, I think guys should make it intimately apparent from the beginning that this is a different kind of relationship - maybe even bring another girl on the first date, or make your first date going out and talking to other girls / guys.
I have a knack for getting into situations with two girls and sleeping with them both at once, and a couple times this has turned into a continuous situation. I had a 4-person "relationship" where the rules were that we would only meet each other as a group (no pairing off), but eventually I fell out with my guy friend and the two chicks also fell out with each other. Since that ended, I've still kept the nicer girl from that arrangement in contact, and she has started offering "sacrificial lambs" to the slaughter. She feels bad and doesn't even mail me when she's not with a friend who is down for some group sex. I of course tell her not to be silly, and that she can come on her own but you have to love the attitude! For the most part these are young girls, fresh out of HS and looking for new experiences, and it seems to be their first group sex encounter, usually. Anyway, I've only had experience introducing girls to the "Swinger" lifestyle, never really been with a girl/woman who has "been around the block" in the swinger way so to speak.

My experience is non-existent for finding bisexual guys though, sorry!
I did live with a college friend who was bi for a while, and he worked at Dragon men back in the day, but he didn't really sleep with women very much at all, much to their chagrin.

 

[just4fun]

I think you have to be careful with such an argument. A guy can claim he is straight, but be bisexual or gay. However, there are men who are exclusively straight and do NOT get turned on by gay porn or acts. This has been proven in various clinical tests.

They would test for the difference between gay and heterosexual men by hooking sensors to their penis and having them watch gay and heterosexual porn. Primarily heterosexual men, didn't like gay porn. But there is a range, not just on or off.

Transexuality complicates the issue even more. However, the actual sex with a pre-op transexual is still arguably gay sex. Meaning men who engage in sex with transsexuals are arguably bisexual. That is, they may do gay sex or acts, but are also still attracted to feminine features, femininity, and women too.

Another interesting thing about such tests is they have caught many women lying. They would hook sensors to their vaginas, and ask questions before they watched porn. What women would verbally say they didn't like, could be very different from how their vagina responded. Demonstrating the social "filters" that many women have.

Sexuality is however not rigid between 2 extremes, only straight and only gay. This is where some people, more so religious or so-called conservatives, get confused.

Meaning there is a range between, that varies between 100% gay to bisexuals to 100% heterosexual. This was explained by the famous biologist and sexologist, Kinsey.

There is the argument that humans are bisexual by default, then socially conditioned to choose heterosexuality. On their side, they point to men in prison, who may "temporary turn gay" and then flip back to heterosexual when released. On the other side, there are those that argue sexual preference is set at birth. That is, being "born gay". Often, this side makes the dubious argument that bisexuals are really just gays in denial. This appears also for political reasons, to increase their support base or perceived numbers.

Be that as it may, there are people who are exclusively heterosexual. By genetics or choice, you can't turn them or won't "turn gay", and regardless of the situation. And there are exclusively gay people, that won't "turn heterosexual". But, there is a lot of MIDDLE area (shown by Kinsey scale).

My argument is that you simply can't tell by looking at people or even believe what people say, which way they might go. Because of the strong social conditioning or people saying whatever seems acceptable.

I've had bisexual girlfriends blatantly lie to me, when I probed the issues via questions in earlier dates. Then when we were in a sex orgy or swinger party on later dates, she is happily licking another woman's vagina. And the opposite happens. Where she says that she is "open-minded" or open to the idea, then when the opportunity comes, doesn't do it. Actions always speak louder than words or guesses.

Rather, you have to see them in action or put them in that situation. So with User#16452, I argue she needs to be around gay guys who will likely have sex with each other, then filter out bisexuals who are attracted to her. A woman wanting to see gay sex acts between men, is unlikely to see such by hanging around men who claim to be heterosexual, are sexually inexperienced, or confused about their sexual orientation. Better she hang around actual or apparently gay men and openly bisexual men. And I think she would need to be proactive about it, unless she gets lucky, where she makes the effort to go find them or put herself among them.

(Kinsey chart)

(Kinsey chart)

Maybe I'm a double 0

 

[Solong]

I've never really had experience turning things from a monogamous relationship to something more. Every time I tried to introduce other girls or people into the relationship after a few meets, the girl wasn't up for it because she liked me too much by then. So, to lay out a counterpoint to Solong, I think guys should make it intimately apparent from the beginning that this is a different kind of relationship - maybe even bring another girl on the first date, or make your first date going out and talking to other girls / guys.
I have a knack for getting into situations with two girls and sleeping with them both at once, and a couple times this has turned into a continuous situation.

I've turned a lot of my relationships into open, polyamorous, or swinging ones since 30 and because this is an integral part of swinging. Being a bit older as a guy, might help when dealing with women in this context (maturity or relationship experience). And is something very different than what even the average PUA deals with. There is the concept of "overwhelming" a woman or pulling her too quickly out of her comfort zone, and it especially appears to be the case with Japanese more so than Western women. "You want to go as fast as the woman can handle or is comfortable with."

By throwing everything immediately on the table, many women can take it the wrong way. They just met you, so tend towards fear, suspicion, or paranoia. That is too quickly assuming the guy is a dangerous deviant or pervert, or she doesn't want to give the impression that she is a "slut" or "easy" girl.

And women can be tricky about this too, as pretend she is open-minded or totally going along with what you are saying, when she is NOT or totally and negatively change her mind a short while later. Very common in Japan (honne and tatemae). Agree with everything you say today, then tell you she's not with it tomorrow or days later.

Consequently, it is better to actually establish a sexual relationship and connection with her first.

You can indirectly talk to her about the concept of open-relationships, swinging, or polyamory but arguably better not to put any pressure on her to decide too early or right away. More like a long general fun topic discussion. Often better to explain it as something your friend or 3rd party has done or is considering, to separate it from yourself, before you had sex.

The "kind of" main exception is arguably pulling women into 1st night sex orgy situations. Like you and your pal, bring her and a girlfriend back to your place/hotel, and you have a 4 way sex orgy. Another is bringing her to a happening bar... Here, you established an IMMEDIATE sex relationship, so HONESTY about anything sexual is usually easier to discuss. She can't claim she's "mother Teresa" or "not that kind of girl".

So:

1) Talk around it.

Talk about open-relationships, polyamory, swinging etc.... But don't put any pressure on her to decide immediately. Just generalized discussion at first. Gauge her reactions.

2) Establish a sexual relationship

All the talk about open-relationships and polyamory means ZERO if she runs away or she friend-zones you and will do nothing with you.

3) Go as fast as she can handle

Women have different speeds. Figure out her comfort zone, then proceed at that speed.

With some women, we were fine with an open-relationship and swinging from day 1. With other women, took 2 to 3 weeks (depends how often you are meeting too).

4) Do address it at somwhat at the BEGINNING of the relationship.

Don't wait months or years (have seen this) after being in a seemingly monogamous relationship, to suddenly try to convert it into a polyamorous or open one. Because that's usually massive emotional drama.

Here, I'm in agreement with you, about doing it early. Just a matter of exactly when and how early.

5) Undeclared Open-Relationships

Women and men can play a game, where they call each other boyfriend or girlfriend, but don't see each other often. Very common in Japan.

If you are seeing him or her 1x a week, only 3x to 4x a month, then what the hell are they doing all the other time? Many people are "cheating" and have 2 or 3 other sex friends or boyfriend/girlfriends.

This is important as far as polyamory or open-relationships go, because some people prefer to lie, hide, be selfish, and cheat as oppose to honesty. You have to keep this in mind. She or he may say that they are totally against such open or polyamorous relationships, but in actuality you ARE in an undeclared and unmentioned 3-way or 4-way relationship but don't know it. They just prefer not to discuss it and do it behind your back.

My experience is non-existent for finding bisexual guys though, sorry!

A guy finding bi-sexual women is admittedly hard. But there are various ways.

1) Bi-sexual female friend story

One way that I pull it out of some women is tell them stories about bi-sexual female friends of mine or my pals. I distance the story from myself or her, as this makes most women more comfortable.

I then ask her opinion about how she would react in various bi-sexual situations that my friend found herself in. Based on her verbal, facial, and body language reactions you can figure some out or at least she is comfortable with it.

The REAL test, is to put her in a female bi-sexual situation, like a swinger party/sex orgy, swinger club, or 3-way sex. Words and actions can sometimes be very different.

2) Use bi-sexual women to find other bi-sexual women.

Women can have strong lesbian-radar. I've had bi-sexual or lesbian women approach girlfriends of mine. I'm sitting there and literally watching them flirting and trying to get with my lady. Even at times where my girl has no clue what's going on, but I do, as have seen it before. I use those opportunities to bring us to our apartment or a hotel. [emoji48]

Even better when my girlfriend is openly and comfortable being bi-sexual. She goes get women. Such an interesting thing to watch. Those are diamonds, and hard to come by. Sometimes just sheer luck or requires going through a lot of women, and the guy being very mindful to look for that type of woman.