Dating Japanese Women & Problems

[Wwanderer]

I briefly met Ww on a social occasion once, and if anything, you are understating the case. I aspire to one day have a demeanor such as his.

I think you might be confusing me with that dashing young fellow, @just4fun !

However, if you'd like a demeanor similar to mine, it's easy enough. Here's a (numbered!) list of steps you can take:

1 - Grow a snow white beard and head of gray hair (except for the bald spot); use dye if needed.
2 - Gain weight and develop a pronounced pot-belly.
3 - Practice calling out "Ho Ho Ho" loudly in a jolly voice (and with the proper timing of course).
4 - Dress in red and white frequently (during the winter).
5 - Take a Christmas Elf bootcamp (sold separately).
6 - Raise a small herd of reindeer (and give them kawaii names).
7 - Find out what young women want and give it to them as presents.
8 - Keep a list of who is naughty and who is nice (and in what positions).

Extra credit - Get @User#16452 to make you a Halloween costume.

More seriously, you are too kind, sir!

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

My doctor and mother never told me anything about talking to girls. Pop culture is full of beliefs that arguably really mess you up for dating. I simply see it as different aspects of your life. Listen to the experts in each area.. if I want medical advice, listen to a doctor. Exercise, maybe a personal trainer or sports physiologist. Listen to people who do that thing better than anyone else around them - whether it's finance, health, or pickup. The reason it's called SELF improvement is because you have to do the synthesis and work. You pick the areas (it's a broad label!) in which you want to improve and work at them. It's also the reason why most doctors aren't putting out finance books and martial artists aren't telling guys how to chat up girls. In this sense, gaming definitely does contribute unique and unusual information and method.

While I do see some sense and merit in what you say, it does not seem to me that "how to chat up girls" etc is in the same category as having a more healthy lifestyle or better hygiene or handling money matters better or improving your posture etc. For one extremely important difference, all of those other self-improvement areas are about doing things to, with and for yourself. PUA/gaming is about how to do something to another person. As I described in more detail in my above reply to @Chocoballs , one thing that I see PUA/gaming as encouraging, or even being based on, is the concept that women are subjects/items/objects upon which guys can/should act...in a way that one does not regard other people in most social contexts.

Similarly, if you learn a martial art, you are doing katas, stances, and rote behaviors. It might not be easily apparent to the outside observer why there are spiritual teachings associated with martial arts at all. But with every discipline and any situation where you encounter opposition and failure, you have a chance to either get better or give up. This process, whether it's riding a bicycle until your legs are screaming and then ride some more, training a martial art over years at a high level, starting your own business, working very hard in your career, or rejection after rejection sending yourself to talk to girls, etc, is building your character. The opposite is choosing the path of no action, comfort, and laziness. These kinds of people settle into a job they hate, don't take risks, and live and die by the television and low-nutrition food. The path of pain and difficulty is often worth travelling, and pickup is one such path.

Fwiiw, although I think it sounds far fetched to most, I agree with you that there is a path toward "spiritual" advancement through PUA/gaming. However, imo that is not really very important or remarkable because there is a path to spiritual advancement/development in pretty much any and every possible human activity, including sitting staring at a wall (meditation) and putting your body in really peculiar/artificial postures (yoga) and learning to hurt people (martial arts) and archery and gardening and repairing motorcycles and writing poetry and running and even breathing (as you mention). There is a path in p4p and sugar dating too. It is an endless list. If we are going to talk about spiritual matters, maybe some scripture is best to make the point:

"At this moment what more need we seek?
As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
- Zazen Wasan

"In whatever way men love me,
In that same way shall they find my love.
For many are the paths of men,
But in the end, all lead to me."
- Bhagavad Gita

Again, I do not see anything especially unique about PUA/gaming, except that unlike pretty much all of the conventionally recognized paths to spiritual growth, PUA/gaming requires you
to do something to some one else and, imo, morally obligates you to consider its effect on their spiritual development (among many other effects it might have on them).

-Ww

 

[4vibes]

While I do see some sense and merit in what you say, it does not seem to me that "how to chat up girls" etc is in the same category as having a more healthy lifestyle or better hygiene or handling money matters better or improving your posture etc. For one extremely important difference, all of those other self-improvement areas are about doing things to, with and for yourself. PUA/gaming is about how to do something to another person. As I described in more detail in my above reply to @Chocoballs , one thing that I see PUA/gaming as encouraging, or even being based on, is the concept that women are subjects/items/objects upon which guys can/should act...in a way that one does not regard other people in most social contexts.



Fwiiw, although I think it sounds far fetched to most, I agree with you that there is a path toward "spiritual" advancement through PUA/gaming. However, imo that is not really very important or remarkable because there is a path to spiritual advancement/development in pretty much any and every possible human activity, including sitting staring at a wall (meditation) and putting your body in really peculiar/artificial postures (yoga) and learning to hurt people (martial arts) and archery and gardening and repairing motorcycles and writing poetry and running and even breathing (as you mention). There is a path in p4p and sugar dating too. It is an endless list. If we are going to talk about spiritual matters, maybe some scripture is best to make the point:

"At this moment what more need we seek?
As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
- Zazen Wasan

"In whatever way men love me,
In that same way shall they find my love.
For many are the paths of men,
But in the end, all lead to me."
- Bhagavad Gita

Again, I do not see anything especially unique about PUA/gaming, except that unlike pretty much all of the conventionally recognized paths to spiritual growth, PUA/gaming requires you
to do something to some one else and, imo, morally obligates you to consider its effect on their spiritual development (among many other effects it might have on them).

-Ww

I guess having sex is also wrong? Since you discount the woman's participation as no more than just a passive and unwilling participant. Are you suggesting, they don't enjoy the seduction and can't walk away? Let's look at giving women pleasure. Are suggesting men should not learn to give women pleasure? PUA is just the first step to giving women pleasure.

 

[NormalGuy]

See, this is where you and @neverwrong share the same characteristics, you misquote and then base your arguments on something other people haven't said. I definitely didn't read WW state that women are passive and unwilling, quite the opposite

 

[Kegger]

I guess having sex is also wrong? Since you discount the woman's participation as no more than just a passive and unwilling participant.

WTF... Where did that come from?

 

[4vibes]

See, this is where you and @neverwrong share the same characteristics, you misquote and then base your arguments on something other people haven't said. I definitely didn't read WW state that women are passive and unwilling, quite the opposite

In case you have not read ww's postings, he calls what PUA do as tricks to bed women. Now you tell me how can anyone trick anyone to do that? So women don't want sex and PUA are brainwashing them into having sex? As I stated above, giving women pleasure takes skill. And WW suggest a man learning to do it is wrong. A man should neglect to do his duty. What kind of logic is that?

 

[4vibes]

WTF... Where did that come from?

WW accuses PUA tricks women into having sex. He is saying women don't want sex and PUA are brainwashing them into having sex. Seduction is a prelude to sex(the chase). Having sex is just the climax. Both give women pleasure.

 

[Sinapse]

PUA/gaming is about how to do something to another person.

I disagree pretty strongly with this. Pickup is first and foremost about control over your inner mind (how to calm your mind, how pick yourself up off the ground when your heart and ego are crushed, how to remove yourself from negativity and fear, how to take right action in the face of uncertainty and even improbability). The better you can master your own mind, the better you perform, in stark contrast to a few of those other disciples you named (gardening, etc), which you could perform accurately without any spiritual development at all. Even yoga has been pretty much totally stripped of spirituality in the West. It's something you do, like any other sport, not something you develop yourself with, unless you take it upon yourself.

Fwiiw, although I think it sounds far fetched to most, I agree with you that there is a path toward "spiritual" advancement through PUA/gaming. However, imo that is not really very important or remarkable because there is a path to spiritual advancement/development in pretty much any and every possible human activity, including sitting staring at a wall (meditation) and putting your body in really peculiar/artificial postures (yoga) and learning to hurt people (martial arts) and archery and gardening and repairing motorcycles and writing poetry and running and even breathing (as you mention).

True. You gain two things though. Spiritual advancement and success with women. In those other disciples you might also get two things such as spiritual advancement plus: flexibility and fitness (yoga), ability to fight (martial arts), a nice garden and understanding of the needs of plants and seasons (gardening), etc. The difference is very few of those other disciplines are subject to as much critique.

Timothy Leary once said "LSD causes psychotic and paranoid behavior in people who haven't taken the drug"

I similarly think pickup causes psychotic and paranoid behavior in people who aren't directly involved in it.

It would be nice if people who weren't interested in pickup simply allowed those who are to do their thing without judgment (not particularly talking to you, Ww, in this case) although I realize that people like Roosh and Julien Blanc make this difficult... Sigh. A guy can hope though

 

[Kegger]

WW accuses PUA tricks women into having sex. He is saying women don't want sex and PUA are brainwashing them into having sex. Seduction is a prelude to sex(the chase). Having sex is just the climax. Both give women pleasure.

I can't speak for WW but it is a huge leap to go from saying PUA tricks women into having sex, to your conclusion that he thinks women don't want sex.

My main thing was that you quoted one of his posts the was no way relevant to what you then said.

Ive gone on record as saying that I think a lot of what you PUA do is just common sense and a natural part of evolution (well I actually haven't said that bit to date)

I'm now wondering if this is due to maturity, as I'm a lot more comfortable now than I was in my 20s.
So maybe PUA is a young mans game.

I do go the P4p route, but I also meet girls in bars etc, but I just do what comes naturally and don't rely on a set of preset actions to try and get the girl to come home with me.

I'm also lazy so if things don't work out with the bar scene you have a 100%back up plan. i.e pop over to Yoshiwara for a couple of hours of artificial loving.

I'm way to lazy for the 3 hour/9 contacts/ 3 dates scenario.

But back on topic, where my original point ( I think) was that I find it a bit of a hypocrisy to complain about these "problem" women who are, as I see it, using the tools of game in much the same way PUA do.

 

[meiji]

What PUA is or isn't is not on topic here. Last warning to get back on topic.

 

[Wwanderer]

I think the problem is that a lot of guys just find it difficult both to approach women and to relax around them. This, for me, is what 'good' PU seems to be designed to solve. It provides a framework for approaching women and talking to them ...

But, as you argue, the risk seems to be that by automating certain behaviours, your 'true' behaviour becomes subsumed. There used to be a show on British TV called WLTM, and it took people who were suffering from an extreme lack of success with the opposite sex, gave them a bunch of different coaches to help them, and, largely turned these nervous wrecks into people with successful and thriving relationships. ... Some of these people's lives were changed in a truly dramatic way. But in so doing all of them became a bit less interesting. All of them were obviously picked because they would make good TV. So even though they were all fucking weird, they were also weirdly endearing. By the end of the show, while they were more successful with the opposite sex, and, indeed, life in general, they were also a little less weird. So I almost always felt very ambivalent about their success. I don't think one thing is better than the other.

Fwiiw, I think that this post is a particularly insightful and balanced one and specifically that it does a good job of drawing the distinction between improving something about yourself (your hygiene or posture or diction or whatever) and changing yourself into someone else. I have had difficulty in articulating the crucial difference in this and other threads. Thanks.

-Ww

 

[Kegger]

Heeding the emperors warning and getting back on topic, I actually find some of the things in @Solong s original post to not actually be problems.

I kind of prefer the non-confrontational approach many Japanese woman prefer.

I'd much rather not get a reply, than a "not in a million years" direct reply.

Send a girl a text, maybe two, and no reply. I get the point.

... And boom... Back on topic

 

[Wwanderer]

What PUA is or isn't is not on topic here. Last warning to get back on topic.

I guess the topic is Problems in Dating Japanese Women, and I have been invited (including by the OP) to contribute advise/input (based on my experiences and observations) rather than criticizing the input/advise others give. That sounds like a recipe for a somewhat sterile and limited discussion to me, but so be it (for this thread).

So, here's a bit more of my advice fwiiw: Don't do things to or for women; do things with them, in cooperation/collaboration with them.

Don't kino or escalate them; don't try to make them tense; don't try to put them at ease; don't "guide them" (geez!) to sex/pleasure; don't shield them from "external pressure" (whatever that means); don't treat or think of them as a problem to be solved in your life; don't score/evaluate them or their culture or behavior; don't diagnose their mental/psychological/emotional defects as though you were their shrink; don't instruct them; don't try to "fix' or train them; don't *use* them as a part of your spiritual growth efforts; don't time their responses to your messages; don't select and pick them up as though they were menu items... Meet them rather than picking them up.

Instead, recognize that you need them and their wisdom and their insights and their strengths and their abilities as much as they need any of yours. Moreover, recognize that your weaknesses and defects are no less than theirs. Be as willing to accept their help, support, guidance etc no less than you are willing to provide yours to them.

Then, once you have your head wrapped around this very unconventional perspective, form mutually self- organizing partnerships with some of them and proceed to do things, great and small, together with them. Enjoy each other in a light hearted and playful way; life has many harsh sorrows; relationships are one of the major compensating joys.

I am afraid this is not very articulate. The difference between doing something to someone and with them probably sounds like some meaningless semantic/word-game, but the underlying difference in attitude and conceptualization that I am trying to express is night-and-day imo and can make all the difference in the world.

Btw and I hope obviously, I would give *exactly* the same advice if the OP had omitted the word "Japanese" from the thread's title.

-Ww

 

[4vibes]

My main thing was that you quoted one of his posts the was no way relevant to what you then said.

[QUOTE="Wwanderer, post: 52017, member: 381"

PUA/gaming requires you
to do something to some one else

-Ww[/QUOTE

Would sex be the same thing? A man is require to do some thing to the woman during sex?

 

[Vulkan]

In my opinion the point is more about handling those "non confrontational " (and unusual to newbies) behaviors rather than be judgmental of japanese women. The former you can change the latter you can't.

 

[4vibes]

Don't kino or escalate them; don't try to make them tense; don't try to put them at ease; don't "guide them" (geez!) to sex/pleasure; don't shield them from "external pressure" (whatever that means);

-Ww

And be in the friend zone forever..... And must P4P.... What do lovers do? The above.

 

[Wwanderer]

And be in the friend zone forever..... And must P4P.... What do lovers do?

Not my experience, not remotely my experience, in fifty plus years of relationships that have involved just about ever type of connection with women that has a commonly recognized name/category and many more creative ones that do not. Those are just the facts, make of them what you will.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

I guess the topic is Problems in Dating Japanese Women, and I have been invited (including by the OP) to contribute advise/input (based on my experiences and observations) rather than criticizing the input/advise others give. That sounds like a recipe for a somewhat sterile and limited discussion to me, but so be it (for this thread).

So, here's a bit more of my advice fwiiw: Don't do things to or for women; do things with them, in cooperation/collaboration with them.

Don't kino or escalate them; don't try to make them tense; don't try to put them at ease; don't "guide them" (geez!) to sex/pleasure; don't shield them from "external pressure" (whatever that means); don't treat or think of them as a problem to be solved in your life; don't score/evaluate them or their culture or behavior; don't diagnose their mental/psychological/emotional defects as though you were their shrink; don't instruct them; don't try to "fix' or train them; don't *use* them as a part of your spiritual growth efforts; don't time their responses to your messages; don't select and pick them up as though they were menu items... Meet them rather than picking them up.

Instead, recognize that you need them and their wisdom and their insights and their strengths and their abilities as much as they need any of yours. Moreover, recognize that your weaknesses and defects are no less than theirs. Be as willing to accept their help, support, guidance etc no less than you are willing to provide yours to them.

Then, once you have your head wrapped around this very unconventional perspective, form mutually self- organizing partnerships with some of them and proceed to do things, great and small, together with them. Enjoy each other in a light hearted and playful way; life has many harsh sorrows; relationships are one of the major compensating joys.

I am afraid this is not very articulate. The difference between doing something to someone and with them probably sounds like some meaningless semantic/word-game, but the underlying difference in attitude and conceptualization that I am trying to express is night-and-day imo and can make all the difference in the world.

Btw and I hope obviously, I would give *exactly* the same advice if the OP had omitted the word "Japanese" from the thread's title.

-Ww

This doesn't appear to be actionable advice. As if the guy should just have no thought process, be aimless, no initiative, or not display leadership on his own. It appears to be more of a list of narrow restrictions, in which it's felt other men must adhere to when interacting with women or as if the interaction should only go a certain way.

Definitely a man should respect, cherish, and get input from women too. However, this doesn't mean he can't initiate touching, suggest, lead, or have a direction he would like to go. Which are core qualities many associate with being a man or masculine.

I can't help but think if there isn't some sort of elitist bubble at work. Like, if I was talking to Donald Trump, I'm sure he would say just be yourself as women are easy or it will all come easily. Maybe so for a man of his socioeconomic position, but that doesn't reflect reality for the majority of men.

Note- Edited.

 

[Wwanderer]

This doesn't appear to be
actionable advice. It appears to be more of a list of narrow restrictions, in which it's felt other men must adhere to when interacting with women or as if women can't decide for themselves.

I can't but help if there isn't some sort of elitist bubble at work. Like, if I was talking to Donald Trump, I'm sure he would say just be yourself as women are easy or it will all come easily. Maybe so for a man of his socioeconomic position, but that doesn't reflect reality for the majority of men.

Thanks for the comment. It reveals that I haven't succeeded in communicating my point (to you at least). I am talking about an attitude toward or basic concept of relationships with women. Having that attitude or concept has nothing to do with wealth or elitist status (such as celebrity or astonishing physical attractiveness) at all. Anyone can take the attitude or embrace the concept.

-Ww

 

[4vibes]

Not my experience, not remotely my experience, in fifty plus years of relationships that have involved just about ever type of connection with women that has a commonly recognized name/category and many more creative ones that do not. Those are just the facts, make of them what you will.

-Ww

The only people I know doing that are millionaires or pretty boys where the women throw themselves at them. Not the average Joe.

 

[Wwanderer]

The only people I know doing that are millionaires or pretty boys where the women throw themselves at them. Not the average Joe.

This means that, like @Solong , you have not correctly understood what "that" is.

-Ww

 

[Vulkan]

This doesn't appear to be actionable advice. As if the guy should just have no thought process, be aimless, no initiative, or not display leadership on his own. It appears to be more of a list of narrow restrictions, in which it's felt other men must adhere to when interacting with women or as if the interaction should only go a certain way.

Definitely a man should respect, cherish, and get input from women too. However, this doesn't mean he can't initiate touching, suggest, lead, or have a direction he would like to go. Which are core qualities many associate with being a man or masculine.

I can't but help but think if there isn't some sort of elitist bubble at work. Like, if I was talking to Donald Trump, I'm sure he would say just be yourself as women are easy or it will all come easily. Maybe so for a man of his socioeconomic position, but that doesn't reflect reality for the majority of men.

Note- Edited.

I agree. A mere list of restrictive "don't do" has little added value in terms of giving a direction to one's behavior. While i value some of the principles that ww emphasizes, i find them of little to no help in terms of connecting with women.

I find out that when you're too experimented and skilled in one domain, you usually have no clue ad to find out anything practicle to help average people get better at it.

reminds me of a famous US rock climber saying that people should just climb, be positive and all the pieces would come together at some point. The reality is much tougher than that.

 

[Wwanderer]

I don't know if it helps clarify my post at all, but my advise is not meant to be a prescriptive set of recipes/procedures/techniques in the style of most of the advice offered by PUAs/gamers. As I have very often stated in these threads, I think it far better to follow your impulse of the moment. Rather the advise I give above is intended to suggest a change in attitude toward and fundamental concepts of dating/relationships which can dramatically change what your impulses of the moment are and how you experience the interactions (e.g., with much less anxiety, fear and stress).

-Ww

 

[meiji]

So here's my 2 cents:

I think everyone on all sides can agree that the best way to improve your abilities to talk to women is to improve your self-confidence around women, and really the only way to do that (aside from looking good) is to talk to women.

Beyond that, I'm going to resort to my usual mantra: We All Like Different Things. That's true for both men and women. What this means to me is that I'm open to listening to what other people say without trying to shout them down or denigrate them. Men have as many successful and unsuccessful approaches to women as women have ways of showing interest and disinterest towards men. There is no 'right way' to go about it and not 'right way' to be successful with women. Yes, guys that are interested in a 'slow burn' probably aren't going to try to get a girl into bed immediately, and they can be just as successful as a guy that has his 'game' down and is able to have multiple 'same night lays' in a row. Neither is more or less valid than the other, and there's plenty of room on this board for both ends of the spectrum, and everything in between. We all like different things. The only thing that I'd reject in a conversation is one person saying that another person speaking from experience is the wrong way of picking up women.

Take from what other people have to say that might help you and leave the rest. Everything else is learning for yourself what works and doesn't work. For you.

 

[Solong]

I don't know if it helps clarify my post at all, but my advise is not meant to be a prescriptive set of recipes/procedures/techniques in the style of a lot of most of the advice offered by PUAs/gamers. As I have very often stated in these threads, I think it far better to follow your impulse of the moment. Rather the advise I give above is intended to suggest a change in attitude toward and fundamental concepts of dating/relationships which can dramatically change what your impulses of the moment are and how you experience the interactions (e.g., with much less anxiety, fear and stress).

-Ww

You aren't giving actionable advice. Be "natural", "go with the flow", "use the Force", etc... That all sounds good in movies, but doesn't reflect reality. Even a Jedi needs and uses actual techniques to fight with.

If a guy (or woman) are failing or not doing well, as they presently are, specific advice on how to correct and impriove their situation is more useful. Coaches, trainers, and teachers are paid and are valued for being specific.

This is why I'm concerned about the perceived elitism. Like a soft and refined man of privilege and money, who had it easy for a long time, yelling at gladiators on how he would like to see them fight.

"A gladiator should be a natural. And when he fights, he should never: bite, trip, throw dirt, no..."

"Hey you, from way up there eating turkey. We are fighting and dying in this arena. We want to know and will do what it takes to win"