Giving notice when leaving a job in Japan?

[MossBoss]

Now when you suggest I get out of Shizuoka, do you mean I should get out only to get away from deadbeats or because there are actually full-time jobs available for people without 4 year degrees in other cities? lol

Tôkyo should offer more opportunities. You should be looking to network to get a better job.

 

[Leonidas]

I am unaware of the privacy law restricting "negative" references. Can someone here point me to the section where that would be spelled out? Even if the law says so, you will never find out if and when someone gives a poor reference about you. Nobody will tell. I know from practice that during reference calls, "areas of improvement" and weaknesses are often asked about. Also, "anything else I should be asking about that I've missed?"

Defamation laws do not protect anyone from having true claims about them revealed either. If you stole money from your employer, and he says so, that's not defamation. It's only defamation if you didn't.

It's always best to err on the side of caution, and to put oneself in the shoes of the other side. Treat them as you would have them treat you. EVEN if they don't. That's best to protect yourself, and also just to do the right thing. One month to find a replacement is often unrealistic, especially if that one month contains a period of time when everything shuts down (xmas/new years). Maybe English teachers can be replaced that fast but for many other jobs it's hard. As an employer I have always appreciated employees working with me to fill their place and not just throwing things in my lap. Those who did had better not ever ask me to provide a reference for them.

 

[tamannner]

When I quit my previous job in Japan my boss first complained and was angry even though we were on good terms. But I assured him I'd train my team to take over my tasks and that transition would be smooth. In the end he lightened up. Even if someone is not happy when you leave never give them more ammo, just be professional and move on knowing it's possible you can't use that person as a reference maybe

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

When I quit my previous job in Japan my boss first complained and was angry even though we were on good terms. But I assured him I'd train my team to take over my tasks and that transition would be smooth. In the end he lightened up. Even if someone is not happy when you leave never give them more ammo, just be professional and move on knowing it's possible you can't use that person as a reference maybe

I totally agree. While it is better to stick with a job until you have something else secured, I also want to quit before I get into my next argument with my boss...which is often impossible as he loves to bitch at me when he is stressed out about anything.

 

[Sudsy]

I am unaware of the privacy law restricting "negative" references. Can someone here point me to the section where that would be spelled out?

I would have to ask our attorney for the reference on privacy law and negative references - but we advise our clients not to give negative reviews of former employees. There are also ramifications in the portions of the criminal and civil codes regarding defamation.

Even if the law says so, you will never find out if and when someone gives a poor reference about you. Nobody will tell.

It's not at all uncommon for former employees to call up themselves, or have a friend call up, to see what a former employer has to say about them.

Defamation laws do not protect anyone from having true claims about them revealed either

Actually... in Japan, they do.

Article 230-1 of the Criminal Code: A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished by imprisonment with or without work for not more than three (3) years or a fine of not more than 500,000 yen.

There's also a bunch of sections in civil code about these issues, though the judgments tend to be in the 4-6 million yen range. Most aggrieved parties opt for criminal prosecution.

 

[MikeH]

Actually... in Japan, they do.

Actually in all other countries that I know too. Very bold statement, I agree, especially when I know only about laws in two other countries.

There was quite a public case years ago in Europe where someone called another one a paedophile. Well, the guy was a convicted child abuser and still the accuser got fined. (and if someone asks for reference I heard it from my neighbour).

 

[impish]

I have never just give a person (ex-coworker) as a random reference without asking them first to make sure that I am going to get someone who wants to say good things about me.. If they say yes that means they'll give you a good reference. if they say no then they probably wouldn't.

To get around defamation all you have to do is say. "I won't say anything bad about person X, but I will say that I wouldn't hire them." Basically you have said everything you need to say right there. You aren't defaming the person, but you're letting the person calling you that person X is not worth being hired.

 

[Leonidas]

@Sudsy , that's interesting about the irrelevance of truth to defamation claims in Japan. Learned something new! But the claimant will still need to make a case that his/her reputation was damaged. This would be very hard to do in the case of employment references, where the "defamatory" information was merely passed from one person to another, and nobody else ever heard about it. As well, if the claim made was true, the defendant could make the case that by passing along factual claims of a person's bad behavior, the public interest was served, since obviously it is in the public interest that people generally behave themselves, and that bad behavior be discouraged.

It's all theoretical though since in practice it will be nigh impossible to bring a law suit against a former employer for a bad reference. You'd have to prove that such a bad reference was made in the first place. How are you going to prove this? Nobody will tell. I have plenty of experience with this and it's just a fact that employers reveal poor behavior of former employees all the time. Some corporations may advise their employees not to do this, just to err on the side of caution, but overall I haven't seen this make much of an impact in practice.

And @MikeH , I guess you could probably find another two countries where it's handled similar to Japan. But, in common law jurisdictions truth is an absolute and complete defense against defamation claims. This is something you can easily google. In civil law jurisdictions it depends on the country. In some, like Spain or Germany, truth is a sufficient defense. In others, like Sweden, it also depends on the intent of the allegedly defamatory claim. Was it made maliciously and merely to degrade the person's standing in public? If so, it may be punishable. In the case of employer references, no way.

 

[Sudsy]

in practice it will be nigh impossible to bring a law suit against a former employer for a bad reference. You'd have to prove that such a bad reference was made in the first place.

As I mentioned, if a former employee suspects a previous employer has been giving negative information about them, all they have to do is call up posing as a prospective employer and ask about them, and record the call.

When dealing with an employee that performed poorly or was otherwise released for cause, we specifically coach our clients to say, "Yes, employee worked for us. We have nothing to say regarding their tenure here."

Not negative at all, legally non-actionable - still speaks volumes to anyone with half a brain.

 

[MikeH]

Not negative at all, legally non-actionable - still speaks volumes to anyone with half a brain.

The general rule in all calls with references is if they don't sing his praise and add at least a few hallelujahs in there then it's a no.

And if the call goes to answering machine all you need to do is to tell you called for a reference and add "if he was an exemplary employee please call me back".

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

I would have to ask our attorney for the reference on privacy law and negative references - but we advise our clients not to give negative reviews of former employees. There are also ramifications in the portions of the criminal and civil codes regarding defamation.



It's not at all uncommon for former employees to call up themselves, or have a friend call up, to see what a former employer has to say about them.



Actually... in Japan, they do.

Article 230-1 of the Criminal Code: A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished by imprisonment with or without work for not more than three (3) years or a fine of not more than 500,000 yen.

There's also a bunch of sections in civil code about these issues, though the judgments tend to be in the 4-6 million yen range. Most aggrieved parties opt for criminal prosecution.

Do these laws apply to foreigners too?

Just have to ask because some things are still Japanese only lol.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

@Sudsy , that's interesting about the irrelevance of truth to defamation claims in Japan. Learned something new! But the claimant will still need to make a case that his/her reputation was damaged. This would be very hard to do in the case of employment references, where the "defamatory" information was merely passed from one person to another, and nobody else ever heard about it. As well, if the claim made was true, the defendant could make the case that by passing along factual claims of a person's bad behavior, the public interest was served, since obviously it is in the public interest that people generally behave themselves, and that bad behavior be discouraged.

It's all theoretical though since in practice it will be nigh impossible to bring a law suit against a former employer for a bad reference. You'd have to prove that such a bad reference was made in the first place. How are you going to prove this? Nobody will tell. I have plenty of experience with this and it's just a fact that employers reveal poor behavior of former employees all the time. Some corporations may advise their employees not to do this, just to err on the side of caution, but overall I haven't seen this make much of an impact in practice.

And @MikeH , I guess you could probably find another two countries where it's handled similar to Japan. But, in common law jurisdictions truth is an absolute and complete defense against defamation claims. This is something you can easily google. In civil law jurisdictions it depends on the country. In some, like Spain or Germany, truth is a sufficient defense. In others, like Sweden, it also depends on the intent of the allegedly defamatory claim. Was it made maliciously and merely to degrade the person's standing in public? If so, it may be punishable. In the case of employer references, no way.

This is a great point. It isn't like a company you are applying at is going to say a word if you ask "hey, did you decide not suddenly not hire me because my employer said something about me?"

Dumb question to ask and not a Japanese employer on Earth that would answer such a direct question.

An obvious hint that my employer said something negative would be if a company seemed interested in hiring me based on my resume before calling up my employer and then suddenly "losing interest" out of nowhere lol.

 

[User#8628]

I would have to ask our attorney for the reference on privacy law and negative references - but we advise our clients not to give negative reviews of former employees. There are also ramifications in the portions of the criminal and civil codes regarding defamation.



It's not at all uncommon for former employees to call up themselves, or have a friend call up, to see what a former employer has to say about them.



Actually... in Japan, they do.

Article 230-1 of the Criminal Code: A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished by imprisonment with or without work for not more than three (3) years or a fine of not more than 500,000 yen.

There's also a bunch of sections in civil code about these issues, though the judgments tend to be in the 4-6 million yen range. Most aggrieved parties opt for criminal prosecution.

I think its a good law actually. Some facts may be true but are none of anyones business, like if your employer found out you are also a sexworker and fired you because of that for example.

 

[Sudsy]

Do these laws apply to foreigners too?

Just have to ask because some things are still Japanese only lol.

Pretty much all laws apply to Japanese and foreigners equally. There are very few that apply to either group exclusively, mostly immigration law (affecting only foreigners or those who hire them) or military/police service requirements and public office holder regulations (Japanese nationals only). Welfare is another that is specifically national only, though most areas extend it to long term residents as a courtesy.

 

[Desktop]

Companies can lose interest at any time for numerous reasons. I once went 7 rounds to end up not being liked by the last senior director. 3 months afterwards he left the company to go to a competitor of theirs.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

Companies can lose interest at any time for numerous reasons. I once went 7 rounds to end up not being liked by the last senior director. 3 months afterwards he left the company to go to a competitor of theirs.

True...I shouldn't say it is an obvious sign, but I believe the chances they heard something negative about me went up in my mind if they suddenly pull a 180 with regard to interest in me.

I have been turned down suddenly due to other reasons in the past though, so I agree with you.