How To Have Better Dates With J Girls

[Sinapse]

A source of frustration among many a foreign man is the huge gap between perception (Asian women are easy / like me for just being foreign) and reality - most Japanese women have only ever imagined their potential future mate to be a Japanese man.

For the purpose of this article, I'm going to be talking about the more Japanese-type girls, who generally don't speak more than a couple words of English, might not even have a passport, or if so have only been to Bali or Guam or similar Japanese-friendly countries, and don't particularly care too much about the world outside of Japan. In general (vast generalization incoming!), the more attractive a woman is the more she is rewarded by the society in which she grew up, which in turn means she has less incentive to branch out and seek foreign things because everything she could ever want (jobs, money, love, and lots of sex) is thrown at her every minute of the day.

In my experience, generally speaking, most foreigners are with or target girls who are primarily English-speaking, foreigner friendly types found in foreigner places like Roppongi, international parties, language exchange sites, etc. More wild generalizations, but often these girls (though there can be attractive ones) are in some sense of the word "rejects" from Japanese culture. Girls with physical body types that are not attractive to Japanese men but foreigners still like (for example - large asses or thin "usui" eyes and faces). Combine this with the fact that FOB foreigners think a Japanese girl 5 is actually a 8 simply by virtue of the fact that she's not fat and you see a lot of foreigners walking around happily with trolls. The attractive foreign-friendly girls are generally international school graduates or high-end hostesses, which means they come from money and have education. Education alone is a poor indicator though, as a quick trip to Waseda or Aogaku will show you, with their vast expanses of homely kurogami sutore-to girls. The money is important too.

This post is geared towards the more traditionally Japanese girls, the subset which contains both the largest chunk of, and the most attractive (at least according to Japanese standards) girls - the kind of girls you see working in Lumine, 109, at nail/ hair salons, kyabajo, etc etc. With all that in mind, lets get into it.

1. Speak Japanese
Drr this is obvious. If you aren't studying, start now. And if you've lived here more than 3 years and can only still say your name and have trouble interacting with clerks at the conbini, I just dont even know what you're doing with your life. If you live in a country, learn the language. Common sense, and its been said before but also *very* important for dating.

2. Understand her world
This is equally huge, but maybe a little easier than learning an entire language. You have to know about the girls you're interested in and what their daily life consists of. If she's a kyabajo, what days does she generally have off? When are good times to suggest a date? How does she spend her time and money?

The easiest way to learn about all of these things is by asking everybody about them. Ask guys, girls, anyone you meet - what do they spend their time and money doing, and why. What are their goals, fears, values, and beliefs.

Another way to figure this stuff out is to go into a conbini and check out a magazine targeting the type of girls you like. If you like 派手 / night life / apparel / kyaba like me, check out 小悪魔ageha .. if you like more black-haired traditional girl-next-door アメーカジ type girls look in CanCam, for example. If you dont know what you like flip through a few magazines until you find girls you like. Then, take some time learning as much as you can. You don't have to buy the magazine, but its probably a good idea since theres a ton of information and you might need time to decipher the kanji. You can even take it in to a Japanese tutor (nice if its a female!) and get translations and her opinion on it. Often these kinds of magazines have long-winded surveys about their ideal kind of guys and what they do and how they treat her.

Similar to this is to consume as much media as possible. Ameblo, used correctly is a HUGE trove of knowledge that you can dig through if you know what you're looking for. TV as well.. I dont watch it but I know people who do and its good to know the main characters / shows / new fads and humor. Movies as well serve as excellent double language practice and culture / intonation. Lots of foreign men have horrible voice tone in Japanese and speak very feminized due to anime / female Japanese teachers / friends. Watch some Takeshi Kitano, Takashi Miike, and old Mifune Toshiro movies are both entertaining, and highly masculine. Take notes from them, not girly hosts and boyish anime characters.

This is a HUUUUGE part of success with Japanese girls. You should ideally be getting girls saying stuff like すごい、良く知ってるね！or あたしより知ってるね！　with looks of amazement. <-- this tells you that her image of foreigners (FOB gaijin smash guys who dont really know what she's about and think any J girl is easy) is wrong, and she's delighted. You're exceeding her expectations.

Theres much more that could be said about understanding her world, but I'll leave it at that for now.

3. Plan your date for success

This is pretty obvious, but I still see lots of guys falling into this trap. Either doing the date on her terms (where she suggests / etc) or in a place that has a low chance of conversion to sex. Your date (yes, the first), should be either near your house, her house (if you have balls!), or a love hotel / karaoke / park bathroom / dark alley / you get the idea. It helps if you live on the Yamanote line or near it at a nice neighborhood like Ebisu / Meguro or Minatoku. There's no reason to think you should wait - unless the girl is VERY inexperienced, they usually know what's up, and if she's out on a date with you it means she likes you and sex IS on the table.

That said,

4. Don't expect too much, but go for it to see anyway!

Don't expect your date to end in sex. But, always make the move. As a man, its your role to try to escalate things sexually, and as a woman, she will say no if she doesn't want it.

5. No PDA

Don't try anything in public, it just hurts your chances of seeing her again / getting her to come back to your place / a hotel. Wait until you're behind closed doors, then make your move. In a way, this can take a lot of pressure off. Go to the izakaya / restaurant / whatever, and budget 1-2 hours to just have fun, talk, and forget about "whats going to happen".

6. Lead

This also should be obvious, but you are the leader. You invite her out, you pick the venue, you tell the waiter how many people even if the waiter asks the girl (common), you order the food, you tell her when its time to leave the first venue, you go for the kiss, etc. Japanese girls like and respect leadership, and they don't want to feel like they have to decide things.

7. Find out her values

Somewhat similar, and a lot easier if you've done the background work of step 2. Every girl has values which inform her life choices. Understanding them and her is not only the most effective method for getting her in bed, its the key to a successful love life. The problem is that without effort and conscious awareness and thought, guys take WAY too long to understand the girl and her values. THIS IS WHY girls don't have sex on earlier dates with those guys, because they don't feel understood, and feel like its かるい. If you can understand the girl more than even some of her close friends after just a couple hours, then you should be able to easily take her home.

The easiest way to explain the process of finding out her values is to "follow the trail of why". For everything she does, you can follow the trail of why all the way down to her values. So she has really nice nail art. IF you've done your work in step 2 you know its probably about １万円 per month, which is a sizeable chunk of change. Why does she do that? Its valuable to her and tied into her self-worth and appearance. If she has nail art, there are some professions that she has higher chance of working in and some less (if you don't know already this is a huge clue). She's not going to be a nurse, dental hygienist, este worker, CA, and probably not an OL. What might she be?

Thats just one example, but the process is the same for everything she thinks and does. Why does she do it? What does that mean about her? If you can figure this out without her spelling it out for you, you have a head start. She will feel like you really truly understand her more than most other guys (which, if you do all that, you do!).

Also very important are her relationships and her self-image.
Why did she break up with her last boyfriend?
What kind of person do her friends think she is? Is it accurate or inaccurate? Is she happy or sad to be thought of in this way?
Is she more a mommas girl or a daddys boy? Why?

Etc.

8. Actually like the girl

This is again obvious, but sometimes guys get too hung up on wanting sex, and without trying to understand the girl they might end up thinking (at worst) that in front of them is the generally stupid / frivolous / annoying young girl who is the guardian of your goal: her vagina. This is the absolute worst way of thinking of women and the date, and surprise surprise, also not very effective!

The best way to actually like the girl (and I mean beyond physically here) is to make a list of character traits you're looking for in an ideal partner. Then, when you discover that she has one of those things, say it!
"I really like how you're adventurous and try new things! Thats cool!"
It's also good to have negative expressions when she doesn't meet your expectations, but for now just focus on the positive. Importantly, it shouldn't be about her body. "You look pretty" or "You have nice eyes" may seem like a good thing to say, but it's readily apparent after 5 seconds, which means she's been told that a million times and is very used to it. Think about how you feel when you get some drunk salaryman come up to you and go "WHERR FROMM???" for the 50th time that night. Yeah, no surprise it isn't endearing.

9. Have fun!

Duh. Have fun! At the end of the night maybe you get laid, maybe not. But if you have fun, you can always take that with you and you will regret the whole night less if you relax and enjoy it.

===================================

Alright, theres way more that could be said about all of these but I'll save it for another time if people are interested in this kind of thing. For starters, hope you guys like it!

 

[Mr Cat]

Wow I could have wrote that, I'm in phase with every word. Thanks for taking time to write this down

 

[User#6326]

A well meaning post and some food for thought... Thanks!

 

[Wwanderer]

Numbered lists! Making a system/procedure for dating and social life!! @Solong the Second!!!

-Ww

 

[Shizumaru]

Great post. I feel like a lot of us already know these things, but it's great to have it all spelt out. Time to hit the magazine rack.

 

[User#6326]

Sure hope any cute girls I talk with don't end up being daddy's boys

 

[split]

You know your stuff man. Much of this matches my past experiences.

 

[Wwanderer]

I have a very mixed reaction to the OP. Imo some of it is excellent advice, but some of it is terrible too.

Caveat emptor I'd suggest.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

@Wwanderer
Curious what you think is terrible, and why. Probably a good idea to explain a bit rather than just offer unspecified criticism

Keep in mind this is all based on my own experience, so others may vary, as always

 

[Wwanderer]

@Sinapse - OK, fair enough question...though to fully explain would require a longer post than I have time to write at the moment.

First, the points I think are good advice include 1, 2, 7, 8 and 9.

Some things I think are terrible advice:

Perhaps most importantly, you call the thread "How to Have Better Dates with J Girls" but appear to mean "How to Have Sex on Dates with J Girls". In other words, you appear to be defining a good date almost entirely in terms of whether or not it includes sex and seem focused on designing the whole dating experience with that goal in mind. There is already a TAG thread in progress that includes a major discussion of how and why it is misguided (to put it mildly) to have sex as a single-minded goal in relationships with women, so I won't say more here.

A second general point is that you are trying to reduce one of life's best, richest and most enjoyable human experiences into something like a recipe or procedure...a list of numbered tips and steps to take. This whole mind-set/perspective makes dating resemble changing a flat tire or installing an operating system or something of that ilk. It may well work if you define success entirely or mostly in terms of her going to bed with you, but you are cheating yourself (and her) out of most of the fun and excitement of building a relationship together imo and (long long) experience. I have debated this point at great length in multiple threads with @Solong, so I also won't say any more on it here.

Several of the specific points that I think to be bad advice have the fault (imo) that they seem designed to convince her to let you into her pants rather than to cause her to want you there. There is a big big difference.

Finally, point #6 is a total loser from my perspective, but perhaps that has to do with my personal tastes in women. I have no desire to be either in a relationship or in bed with a woman who wants to be controlled and led as though she were some sort of semi-child. If a woman can't even decide for herself what she wants to eat in a restaurant (for example), how capable can she be of choosing whom she wants to date or to have as a sexual partner? I would have a hard time respecting a woman who would even put up with being treated as you suggest in point 6. (I do know and understand that this sort of extreme male domination in decision making is a cultural norm in Japan, but I also know from experience that many many, maybe most, women quietly hate it and long for a man who will treat her as the adult and an equal she is. Try it sometime; you may be VERY glad you did!)

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

@Wwanderer

Perhaps most importantly, you call the thread "How to Have Better Dates with J Girls" but appear to mean "How to Have Sex on Dates with J Girls". In other words, you appear to be defining a good date almost entirely in terms of whether or not it includes sex and seem focused on designing the whole dating experience with that goal in mind. There is already a TAG thread in progress that includes a major discussion of how and why it is misguided (to put it mildly) to have sex as a single-minded goal in relationships with women, so I won't say more here.

Yeah, fair enough. The point to me is guys are really frustrated with dates in Japan, and both want to have more fun on the date and more success (whether you admit it or not, I do think that sex is not the only, but definitely A goal on a date. If not, why are you there). I think even in my post I address this very clearly and specifically so not sure why there is confusion about this. In fact #4, 8, and 9 are all directly against the "single-minded goal of sex". I'll accept that the title is perhaps not worded the best, but I don't really think the post as a whole portrays a single-minded focus, actually I think its quite balanced. I specifically included multiple angles for this reason.

A second general point is that you are trying to reduce one of life's best, richest and most enjoyable human experiences into something like a recipe or procedure...a list of number tips and steps to take. This whole mind-set/perspective makes dating resemble changing a flat tire or installing an operating system or something of that ilk. It may well work if you define success entirely or mostly in terms of her going to bed with you, but you are cheating yourself (and her) out of most of the fun and excitement of building a relationship together imo and (long long) experience. I have debated this point at great length in multiple threads with @Solong, so I also won't say any more on it here.

Yes, there dates and relationships are lovely and I often wax poetic about them (not yet on this site, but I will at some point, guarantee you that hehe). I've met some of the most interesting, amazing human beings ever in the past few years since devoting a huge amount of time to this. I'm not sure why you think having sex with a girl = cheating yourself out of fun of building a relationship. I love the chase, the tension before the sex more than even the sex itself. Also, really curious as to why on this site where theres tons of P4P and all that why you choose this thread to talk about the whole "only caring about sex = bad" argument.

Also, nowhere did I say I define success solely on getting her in bed. That certainly would be a bad belief and probably mess you up in the head a lot. There's a difference between always going for it if you like the girl, and attaching your self-worth to the outcome. The latter is highly unhealthy. The former is necessary as a man.

As for the list / procedure thing, guys need concrete things they can do. As much as I wish I could just help guys by saying "be yourself, enjoy the girl, fall in love" and have that work, it doesn't. It's not good advice and its not something you can use to get better without the specific behavioral changes.

Several of the specific points that I think to be bad advice have the fault (imo) that they seem designed to convince her to let you into her pants rather than to cause her to want you there. There is a big big difference.

All the points should be taken together in order to see the larger picture. There's no deception or trickery. You know what IS deception and trickery? Traditional beliefs like expecting the girl to have sex if you pay for her dinner or buy her something, or trying to be "nice" as a way to get into her pants rather than out of generosity. What I've written, by comparison, is radical honesty. You are a man and she is a woman, and yes there is love and fun and deep relationships, but also humans just like sex. You communicate this, and she either responds or turns it down, but there's no trickery or trying to deceive.

Finally, point #6 is a total loser from my perspective, but perhaps that has to do with my personal tastes in women. I have no desire to be either in a relationship or in bed with a woman who wants to be controlled and led as though she were some sort of semi-child. If a woman can't even decide for herself what she wants to eat in a restaurant (for example), how capable can she be of choosing whom she wants to date or to have as a sexual partner? I would have a hard time respecting a woman who would even put up with being treated as you suggest in point 6. (I do know and understand that this sort of extreme male domination in decision making is a cultural norm in Japan, but I also know from experience that many many, maybe most, women quietly hate it and long for a man who will treat her like an adult and an equal. Try it sometime; you may be VERY glad you did!)

To me this sounds like you're projecting very Western values and beliefs into a dating environment that frankly isn't like that. Not sure where what I said sounds like "domination" at all. Women most definitely are not children, and they are most certainly equals. Theres no going against her will. For the record, I didn't mean tell her what to eat, I meant ask her what she'd like when she has the menu, and then you tell the waiter both your order and her order. In Japan it's what the person who is taking care of everything (whether its the father, or the shacho) does. It's behavior that shows her she's under your wing, and you're going to look after her. This should not be confused with any sort of coercion or patronization. It may be not the way you choose to do things but its 100% the way relationships work with Japanese people (you can criticize the culture if you like, but thats another discussion entirely). All her life, at her work, at nomikais, etc etc, it's just how its done. You can rag on the Japanese value system if you like, but it's not going to help you connect with Japanese women.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come off as angry or anything, I actually enjoy having discussions like these and am not trying to be negative towards you personally.

 

[Hamerare]

Can't wait to read Sir Solong's reply

Otherwise I don't got nothing to say

 

[Wwanderer]

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come off as angry or anything, I actually enjoy having discussions like these and am not trying to be negative towards you personally.

Due to real life intruding on virtual life for me at the moment, I will have to postpone most of what I have to say in response to your above quoted post until some later date, but I want to confirm immediately that I couldn't agree more with what you say above. I too enjoy a good and even sharp debate of divergent points of view and appreciate you providing one. I also intend nothing negative or personal, even though it might be possible to read some things that way. If any significant anger or other bad feelings appear to be resulting, you can count on me to drift away from participation.

-Ww

 

[majimekun]

My own advices :

1. When asked questions about yourself and your past experiences/relationships, use it as a way to make very subtile and indirect hints about what she will gain from a relationship with you. If your lifestyle/values have the "suteki" factor (for a japanese girl), she will get hooked pretty fast. Japanese women use relationship to gain stuffs ... and sex is never one of them.

2. Get kind of touchy very gradually during the date. Japanese women like to be brought outside their comfort zone but you have to do it very naturally and NOT romantically if you don't want to be seen as a womanizer. First, avoid absolutely the hands and the face. For example, when living a place, let her go first by placing your hand on her back ... or touch her arm/shoulders when you laugh together at one of your joke.

3. Show that you have a heart, that you are able to feel/express compassion. Japanese girls hate the logical thinking that men are gifted of. They invariably fall for sensible guys. The discussion about pets can be a very good occasion (absolutely avoid politics/news which she will probably have no idea of).

4. Show that you are an open book. When asked a question about yourself, never hesitate and avoid thinking about the best answer. You must reply quickly with confidence without trying to hide things. Japanese girls are very impressed by honesty because they are constantly served bullshit by most men. And they can redflag you very quickly if they sense hesitation/strategic thinking.

That's all for today

 

[majimekun]

5. Never tell her about your expectations and if she asks the question, give her the easiest expectation you can think of (ie: "I just want to enjoy my time with you"). The reason is that most japanese girls have a very very low self-confidence ("jishin ga nai"). If you say something like "I like girls who initiate physical contacts", then she might freakout and shut you down because she will assume from the start that it's way too difficult for her. They don't accept challenges easily. Note that I'm talking about the typical jGirls that have little interest in westerners from the beginning. On the other side, beware that these "wagamama"s will expect you to bear with any of their requests because they are little queens or because this is the way things are done in Japan (and other bullshits).

6. Never make the mistake of starting a sentence with "(I think that) Japanese girls are ...". Because she wants to be seen as someone special. But, of course, they never mind spitting broad generalizations about western men right in your face.

 

[Wwanderer]

You guys sure do have a talent for making something that can be simple, natural and fun play into a complex, artificial and stressful effort!

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I think even in my post I address this very clearly and specifically so not sure why there is confusion about this. In fact #4, 8, and 9 are all directly against the "single-minded goal of sex". I'll accept that the title is perhaps not worded the best, but I don't really think the post as a whole portrays a single-minded focus, actually I think its quite balanced. I specifically included multiple angles for this reason.

...

All the points should be taken together in order to see the larger picture.

I agree that some parts of your OP take a definite stand against having a "single-minded goal of sex", as you say. But then you turn around and say something else that takes what I see as the opposite point-of-view. This is exactly the reason for my comments in this post:

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/how-to-have-better-dates-with-j-girls.9230/#post-37408

Now perhaps you intended it and perhaps it can be read as somehow averaging out to some view in the middle and being, as you call it, "quite balanced", but fwiiw and with all due respect, to me it reads as simply self-contradictory and confused/incoherent...leaving me unsure what you actually think.

Here's one really clear example from your final point (#9) in the OP.

First you write, very sensibly imo:

"Have fun! At the end of the night maybe you get laid, maybe not. But if you have fun, you can always take that with you ..."

Good! What could be simpler; just go out and have a good time with her, realizing that sex is one thing that might happen but not the only possible good thing.

But then, you do a U-turn and add:

"...and you will regret the whole night less if you relax and enjoy it."

(Underlining added.)
Really?? Seriously?? You ***regret the whole night*** if you don't get laid...just a bit less if it were otherwise fun. Whoa!

I could give other examples too, but maybe you can see why this seems confusing at contradictory at best?

Moreover, you are still doing it in your most recent post where you write:

I do think that sex is not the only, but definitely A goal on a date. If not, why are you there

This seems to me to first say that sex is just one goal of a date, but then to turn around and say that it is the only goal worth being there (only good enough reason to even have a date). OK, I remain baffled about what you are trying to say.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I'm not sure why you think having sex with a girl = cheating yourself out of fun of building a relationship. I love the chase, the tension before the sex more than even the sex itself.

Clarification - I did not mean that having sex with a woman cheats you out of the fun; I meant to say that turning it into a somewhat repetitive *procedure* designed to reach a pre-determined goal robs the process of much of its fun, joy and creativity.

Also, really curious as to why on this site where theres tons of P4P and all that why you choose this thread to talk about the whole "only caring about sex = bad" argument.

Fair question. I have done tons of p4p in my life and still do a lot; I have *nothing* against "only caring about sex" in a p4p relationship. In a way, that's exactly what it is for. And often the woman cares only about the money. It is very honest in that sense. A pro escort I knew very well and personally for many years used to say that it is the most honest connection a man and woman can have. (My own view is not that extreme though.)

However, when you go into a social/dating/romantic-context relationship with a woman and "only care about sex", you are imo being dishonest with her AND doing yourself a disservice by having an over-ridging hidden agenda that distorts the whole nature of the interaction. This very very often ends up in the all too familiar situation of the guy trying to persuade the woman to *give* him sex while she uses his desire for sex to manipulate him to get whatever she wants. It sort of works; you may well get laid this way. (And she may well get what she wants too.) But there is much much better to be had in the np4p world.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

For the record, I didn't mean tell her what to eat, I meant ask her what she'd like when she has the menu, and then you tell the waiter both your order and her order.

I am glad to hear that clarification, but in case you didn't know, it is actually very common for Japanese men to order a meal for a female companion without bothering to consult her on what she wants to eat, sometimes even ignoring her "requests" in the process. I have heard complaints from many women on this point...some present in this forum who can confirm it if they are so inclined.

But in any case, I am left wondering about the rest of point #6 in your OP; let me quote a part of it:

You invite her out, you pick the venue, you tell the waiter how many people even if the waiter asks the girl (common), you order the food, you tell her when its time to leave the first venue, you go for the kiss, etc.

Have I misunderstood you in some similar way on all these points? Do you consult her on the venue before you pick it? Do you get her opinion on when to leave a venue before telling her its time to leave? If so, you express it oddly in that quote, but I do hope you don't just order her around like some sort of underling or semi-child.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

First you write, very sensibly imo:
"Have fun! At the end of the night maybe you get laid, maybe not. But if you have fun, you can always take that with you ..."

Good! What could be simpler; just go out and have a good time with her, realizing that sex is one thing that might happen but not the only possible good thing.

But then, you do a U-turn and add:
"...and you will regret the whole night less if you relax and enjoy it."
(Underlining added.)
Really?? Seriously?? You ***regret the whole night*** if you don't get laid...just a bit less if it were otherwise fun.

This leaves me questioning if you actually read what I wrote. I said, once again (as you quoted very specifically):

"...and you will regret the whole night less if you relax and enjoy it."

If you relax and enjoy it. NOT if you don't get laid.

Not really sure how these two are contradictory.

WAIT, first you said
"Go out and have fun!"
THEN, you said
"You will regret it if you don't relax and have fun."

Um, yeah thats basically just saying the same thing twice.

Moreover, you are still doing it in your most recent post where you write:
"I do think that sex is not the only, but definitely A goal on a date. If not, why are you there"

This seems to me to first say that sex is just one goal of a date, but then to turn around and say that it is the only goal worth being there (only good enough reason to even have a date). OK, I remain baffled about what you are trying to say.

Again.. did you actually read the quote you quoted? I never said its the only goal. I said its A goal, and if it's not I'm confused why you're on the date. In other words, if sex isn't at least in your mind, its not a "date" its just dinner with someone who you want to be friends with. Do you actually go out on "dates" with women thinking "No, I don't want to have sex with this woman." ??? This isn't really rocket science.. dates are romantic, and sex is A goal. Not sure what's hard to understand or controversial about this..

Clarification - I did not mean that having sex with a woman cheats you out of the fun; I meant to say that turning it into a somewhat repetitive *procedure* designed to reach a pre-determined goal robs the process of much of its fun, joy and creativity.

...Okay. So dont follow my advice? I personally have way more fun, creative and joyful dates now that I know the "procedure" to turn them into consistent sexual experiences. If you think this isn't true, thats fine.

However, when you go into a social/dating/romantic-context relationship with a woman and "only care about sex", you are imo being dishonest with her AND doing yourself a disservice by having an over-ridging hidden agenda that distorts the whole nature of the interaction. This very very often ends up in the all too familiar situation of the guy trying to persuade the woman to *give* him sex while she uses his desire for sex to manipulate him to get whatever she wants. It sort of works; you may well get laid this way. (And she may well get what she wants too.) But there is much much better to be had in the np4p world.

There's no hidden agenda, and girls are not idiots by any stretch of the imagination. Every single man and woman out on a date knows that sex is connected to dates, and at the end it might or might not happen, but it's not shocking or hidden, like trying to suddenly get her to sign up for Amway or demanding she paint you a picture of your pet dog. THAT would be a surprising or hidden ulterior motive. Trying to have sex, on the other hand, is basically expected. I already said there's no manipulation, but it seems you're set in your ways to think that. In fact, basically everyone who looks on the outside in at nampa or pickup has this idea and it's been talked about extensively and disproven too many times to count, so I'm not going to spend more time on this. Again, if you feel that way, thats fine, you don't have to use the techniques I've mentioned above.

To be honest, most of your criticism sounds like you've set your mind on what I'm saying and reacting to your own projections than you are actually reacting to the words I've written. Even when you directly quote the passage, you misinterpret it to such a surprising degree that I'm left wondering if English isn't your first language (is it?). I'm not sure how much more clearly I can say that sex isn't the sole goal or focus of the date. If you don't want to have sex with the girl you are with, easy, DONT! Nobody is telling you you must to have sex with her.. actually quite the opposite, if you don't like the girl, cut it off and let her go! If you don't that's really weird..

 

[Wwanderer]

This leaves me questioning if you actually read what I wrote. I said, once again (as you quoted very specifically):

"...and you will regret the whole night less if you relax and enjoy it."

If you relax and enjoy it. NOT if you don't get laid.

Not really sure how these two are contradictory.

WAIT, first you said
"Go out and have fun!"
THEN, you said
"You will regret it if you don't relax and have fun."

Um, yeah thats basically just saying the same thing twice.

Perhaps too small a point to debate much further, but it is the "less" that changes the whole parsing of that sentence. In other words, you say that relaxing and enjoying yourself will make you regret the whole night *less*, but why do you regret it at all if you relaxed and enjoyed it? The obvious reading is that you regret the night because you did not get laid, but you regret it *less* if you relaxed and enjoyed it anyway.

I said its A goal, and if it's not I'm confused why you're on the date. In other words, if sex isn't at least in your mind, its not a "date" its just dinner with someone who you want to be friends with.

I think the above spotlights our basic divergence. You appear to be saying that seeking sex is such a fundamental goal of dating that it defines it, that it isn't even dating if you aren't trying to get her to have sex with you...that you don't see the point of dating ("why you're on the date") if you are not seeking sex. So, trying to get laid is a necessary condition for dating? To me that elevates sex seeking to a level beyond simply being one goal among others. Moreover and obviously, there are many people who go out on dates, or what they consider dates, without the slightest intention of having sex in the short term...even if it might be a part of some long term relationship that emerges. This, again obviously, is a more common attitude among women than men but is not exclusively that of either men or women.

...Okay. So don't follow my advice? I personally have way more fun, creative and joyful dates now that I know the "procedure" to turn them into consistent sexual experiences. If you think this isn't true, thats fine.

Sure, no problem. We can agree to disagree. In essence we are simply offering different advice, presumably based on our different experiences in life. That, again, is why I said in that brief earlier post that I think some of your advice is good and some terrible. Readers can/will judge and decide for themselves.

thats fine, you don't have to use the techniques I've mentioned above.

Of course, no one has to use them obviously...and most people don't actually. They are wise imo.

Even when you directly quote the passage, you misinterpret it to such a surprising degree that I'm left wondering if English isn't your first language (is it?).

LOL!! Yeah, English is my first (and almost only) language, but more than that, I have been considered unusually good at it...often received praise for being articulate. Writing in English is a significant part of how I earn my living, and literally hundreds of things I've written have been published. I even briefly taught writing at a world famous university (you have almost certainly heard of it). I could wave around some other credentials/accomplishments involving the use of English for communication, both speaking and writing, but it might go too far toward self-identification. Anyway, it is rare indeed that anyone has suggested that I don't have a good understanding of English!

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

Sure fair enough. Agree to disagree then. The knowledge I speak of is specifically how to attract, sleep with, and continue dating high value young and hot Japanese girls. If you're not interested in that then no worries, there are others who are.

I think there is a large pain body in the modern male with a lot of frustration surrounding dating, leading to lots of trouble in the dating arena, and lots of toxic beliefs that inhibit them. I strongly believe that anyone out there can get good at this if they put enough effort into attraction and pickup or whatever you'd like to call it, but I also understand there will always people who say it doesn't work or is creepy. By and large those people are those who have never tried it first hand, so it's basically like someone who hasn't skydived saying "isn't it scary??? I could never do that / never want to do that.". Well, yes but if you conquer your fear and pain body it can be the most beautiful and rewarding thing you've ever done. Without a doubt it is for me in my life, and without walking this path I would have had far less beautiful amazing experiences with girls who were previously totally out of my reality to attract. Game truly is therapeutic. I teach this stuff to guys in person, and I've seen guys with massive social anxiety overcome a total lack of social ability and end up increasing the success in their career, their love life has escalated to levels they'd never believed possible, and they had tons of friends where before everyone just thought they were weird. So my suggestion is before you knock it to try it out, it might not be at all like you had imagined.

Anyway, if you feel satisfied paying for sex, that's fine, but if you put some effort into it you could have the same and probably better experiences without the pretense of payment involved. Actually, I won't say which one because I want her to continue having a successful career at it, but I've picked up one of the escorts that has reviews on here and she came out to meet me without any mention of her pro status (only discovered she was a pro when browsing this site and was surprised!). Just goes to show that attraction runs deeper than monetary relationships. This is not to rag on Johns or the P4P industry at all, as I've mentioned before I think it should be legalized and regulated for health and anti-exploitation reasons. Anyway, like you said, take my advice with a grain of salt for sure. Apply it if you want, don't if you don't. My advice is only really for the people who care to put effort and practice into it. Everyone else, by and large its either lost on or ignored, which to be honest is how it has to be.

 

[DJV]

This last post is epic : a P4P provider falls for a PUA.
This pretty much sums up all the tricks, pretend and power play that sometimes happens in relationships. (and maybe are the proper triggers to high feelings and pleasure)

Hopefully there is some moments of truth and sincerity in those relationships, even if sometimes we don't know exactly for sure when and how intense
Memories can be so asymetrical : a client might remember the sex when a provider remembers holding hands (or vice versa)

 

[Sinapse]

This last post is epic : a P4P provider falls for a PUA.
This pretty much sums up all the tricks, pretend and power play that sometimes happens in relationships. (and maybe are the proper triggers to high feelings and pleasure)

Yeah, not only did she meet me, but she took a taxi all the way across the city to meet me, then we taxi'd to her apartment to get it on.

Actually I have a lot of stories with night workers. I tend to stay away from prostitutes (if they tell me that's what they work as, which isn't common to honestly say) due to disease concerns, but I've dated a lot of kyaba / hostesses, gogo/pole dancers, and girls bar girls. I live in a semi-red light district but stay away from picking up the girls there out of respect/fear for the yakuza who stand in the street all the time (and the aforementioned trying to stay clean concerns).

Another girl who I met on the street during Halloween last year (been nearly a year now!) was (is) a kyabajo, and regularly entertains yakuza bosses and high-ranking CEOs at her club. She makes high-hundreds to thousands of dollars a night, but chose to come out with me during her free time. The night I met her for our first date I didn't know any of this, and didn't even remember her face to be honest (Halloween is a busy season for nampa boys), but she came from Chiba all the way to Shibuya in a taxi because it was raining and she doesn't know how to buy a ticket for the trains. When she arrived, she didn't get under my umbrella despite my offer, and I knew she was a curious human being who was worth my time and further investigation. I learned a lot about the way Japanese night life (mostly kyaba and yaks) runs, but also peered deep into her soul and she into mine. Over the course of a year, she took me on some of the craziest and most amazing dates of my life, including taking me on a helicopter ride from kiba all the way over the city to Shibuya, then back again. She took me to Bali An when the key to my apartment didn't work. She took me to Nagasaki and Fukuoka, and paid for my and all of my friends to go to the kyabakura there. She took me for my birthday for a full french course meal with wagyu beef on a Tokyo bay cruise. Of course, she paid for everything.

In the end, (about three weeks ago) I had to cut her off because she was hugely more invested in me than I in her. She had been raped at age 9 and had only had five sexual partners including one long-term boyfriend since then (she is 28), and didn't really know how to be sexual or even proficient in bed. Most of the time we would have long rambling conversations which I totally enjoyed and loved, and then she would sleep next to me and I wouldn't feel sexually towards her at all, more like a brother and sister relationship. She wore heels and had great fashion, always had hair sets and long nails, eyelashes, etc, she even dyed her hair lighter for me (I like gyaru/ blondes). But still I wasn't really sexually that attracted to her. Meanwhile my friends are shocked because by all outward appearances she's stunning. She too, after leaving the next day would send me angry messages asking why I didn't try to have sex with her. I highly value women who know what to do in bed, it's one of the reasons I don't pursue girls who are virgins. Her lack of sexuality ended up being a dealbreaker for me, but the huge contrast between her work (entertaining men and holding off sex with them to pull as money as possible from them) and her true personality (a sexually inexperienced, even afraid, girl) was massive. At her work, in one of the top kyabakura clubs in Tokyo, she staves off sex from men who want that more than anything from her, but underneath lay her deep shortcomings in that area. In some ways it was Shakespearean. I would have never imagined a high-level kyabakura could get away with having had sex with so few men in her life.

Anyway I have a ton more stories like this. But the point to me is that anyone insinuating that I'm only in this for the sex is wildly misunderstanding me. On top of that, you don't need to pay for sex, and a lot of these girls in well-payed night-life - from escorts to kyaba - are using the money they make to see guys they actually like, and that could be you!

 

[Whoissalmon]

@Sinapse I do know and understand that this sort of extreme male domination in decision making is a cultural norm in Japan, but I also know from experience that many many, maybe most, women quietly hate it and long for a man who will treat her as the adult and an equal she is. Try it sometime; you may be VERY glad you did!

Not taking any sides here, since I believe that you're both right in a way. But if you turn this conversation around, you can take some pointers about how NOT to behave.

For example, a gaijin friend of mine didn't happen to know the area while he was out and about with a group of female acquaintances. When the topic "where should we eat?" came up, he didn't have any strong opinions about the matter, and left it for the girls to decide. Because of that the girls afterwards pointed out that he isn't "very manly".