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Is this considered to be cultural appropriation?

User#8628 said:
Thats amazing.
Looks like she got kicked out of the organization mainly because they didn't want a foreigner to be really one of them.

Personally, i'm on a quest to become Japan's first western oiran. ;)
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If you look into it, that's far from the main reason. Also it seems she's attempted to edit her Wikipedia page which is a no no.
 
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Rusty Trombone said:
Is driving a cart around the streets of Tokyo dressed as a Nintendo character considered cultural appropriation?
Mario is prob as much a part of contemporary culture as a Kimono wearing woman is part of traditional culture.

In either case, unless you are disrespecting it, I doubt any one in Japan gives a damn.
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Done it! Its a blast!
 
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User#8628 said:
Thats amazing.
Looks like she got kicked out of the organization mainly because they didn't want a foreigner to be really one of them.

Personally, i'm on a quest to become Japan's first western oiran. ;)
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Only relying on what is written on Wikipedia, she got a special acceptance for research purposes without the proper training any other applicant has to run through first and apparently failed to behave properly. Can't see this being related to her nationality. Probably doing other foreigners who might be interested a disservice.
 
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Rebeccalee said:
I have a very pressing question.

If I go to Japan, and do the incredibly touristy thing where I dress up as a geisha/maiko and take photos of myself all decked out with hair and makeup - is this considered cultural appropriation?

I am obviously NOT Japanese, this isn't my culture. But I *reeeeaaalllllyyyy* want to do this. Before I do, I would like to know if by doing so it would be considered to be appropriating culture.

Please help!! I tried searching for several articles about "cultural appropriation vs cultural appreciation" but couldn't find anything Japan-focused. Mostly about black POC issues like hair(dreadlocks)
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I have no opposition. Maybe somewhere in Kyoto has a service? I find you'd look sooooo cute and exisotic!!! Go for it!!!
 
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impish said:
I absolutely despise this term. I understand why it started. White people claiming to have created things that were created by other ethnicities, but it's been distorted to beyond stupidity...

It has become so loosely used that now that people are afraid of wearing hair styles or clothing. It's like saying a Japanese person can't own a pizza parlor because he's not Italian. The Japanese offer services for tourists to dress like geisha/maiko so I don't think a majority of them would feel anything wrong with it.
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1000% this. There was the whole kimono exhibit fiasco at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts due to this oversensitivity. What bugs me even more is that most of the protesters weren't even Japanese, while some people who attended were Japanese and were perfectly ok with the exhibit, and yet the museum eventually cancelled the exhibit. But yes, a big "thank you" to you outsiders telling me how I should feel about sharing and celebrating my culture :rolleyes:

And like you said, there are services out there specifically catered for foreigners to dress in kimonos. Go for it and enjoy! (y)
 
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Yuriko said:
I have no opposition. Maybe somewhere in Kyoto has a service? I find you'd look sooooo cute and exisotic!!! Go for it!!!
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Thanks Yuriko! :shame:
faboo2001 said:
1000% this. There was the whole kimono exhibit fiasco at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts due to this oversensitivity. What bugs me even more is that most of the protesters weren't even Japanese, while some people who attended were Japanese and were perfectly ok with the exhibit, and yet the museum eventually cancelled the exhibit. But yes, a big "thank you" to you outsiders telling me how I should feel about sharing and celebrating my culture :rolleyes:

And like you said, there are services out there specifically catered for foreigners to dress in kimonos. Go for it and enjoy! (y)
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Phew, good to know I'm not making a misinformed/ignorant choice. Yay!!!
 
RandomTokyoGuy said:
Only relying on what is written on Wikipedia, she got a special acceptance for research purposes without the proper training any other applicant has to run through first and apparently failed to behave properly. Can't see this being related to her nationality. Probably doing other foreigners who might be interested a disservice.
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The wikipedia says she could skip a part of the training because she was already an adult.
She actually teaches about geisha culture on JAPANESE universities, so i think she probably knows more than your average Japanese girl who starts taking geisha lessons at 14.
From the way it was written on her wikipedia, it didn't sound like she was not willing to take lessons, but simply like she was too old to join them. She did actually take extra lessons since 2011, the same time she got kicked out of the community. She has been to brilliant universities so learning doesn't seem to be her problem.

Also note how this one and the only other western geisha i've ever heard of, Lisa Dalby, are both anthropologists. So something tells me you cant just take geisha lessons as a western person and get your certificate, you basically have to do an excessive study about it just to be able to participate a little on occasion.

I dont know exactly how one becomes geisha in this day and age, but from what i've heard, girls start studying in their teens mostly. Now, a teenage westerner who gets facinated by geisha culture can not just pack their bags and go to Japan during their teens usually, or i would have been here a bit longer, haha.
So by the time people come here they are likely "too old".
But the time that geisha used to be child slaves who were sold by their families is no more, and one of the main reasons the geisha profession is dying out is because its hard to find girls to become one. So why not a foreign woman who is a bit older and eager to learn?

If its about age and not nationality, it would be interesting to see a foreign teenager who lives here and is fluent in Japanese being interested in taking up geisha classes. I dont know of anyone like that though and maybe the odds are slim.

Also another thing is that probably he main clients of geisha nowadays are foreign tourists. Geisha dinner is immense popular by foreign tourists who do have the funds.
I feel safe to say that geisha may not be so popular with Japanese guys nowadays. Of course, for the novelty some businessmen will invite geisha for dinners once in a while, but since you can have the company of the finest, prettiest hostesses for the same money, i think in general they prefer to invite them. Times have changed and Japanese men much prefer the company of a woman in a figure flattering dress and natural makeup over the stiff geisha nowadays.
So given that tourists are a very important source of clients for geisha, economically, a geisha who speaks fluent English is a much better bet than a geisha who knows every single song and dance that may not be played on a two hours dinner.


Not defending her as a person though, she does sound a bit shady.
The thing with the unsafe guesthouse is quite concerning.
 
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lololasaumure said:
Is Singapore any cheaper than Tokyo in terms of living cost?
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When I last time checked it was not. Though this will widely vary on how you plan to live; where to stay, use of transportation etc. So does Tokyo but I felt even more true in Singapore.
 
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At a previous occasion when I left a work in Japan I was actually presented with a tailor made kimono.
Luckily to this day I have lived ignorant of the existence of something like cultural appropriation and I will happily continue to do so;)

There are good reasons to eat/dress like the locals. Such traditions didn't develop for a reason in the first place.

In case of a maiko san I can see the point that one shouldn't try to imitate one, as this prestigious profession requires quite a lot of training. However to my knowledge the make over you get is only similar and not exactly the same and such service is equally used by Japanese and foreign tourists, so it has to be accepted by general public.
 
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@User#8628
I think you make a lot of very wrong assumptions about the Geisha/Maiko business. Just because there are some Geisha dinner options available to tourists doesn't mean it's a major income stream.

I have been lucky to experience Geisha / Maiko on a few business occasions. This are not the same situations where you would bring an escort.

The number of Geisha/Maiko is dwindling for probably many reasons including economic ones and the tough training. It is however still a mainly Japanese only business with a few peep holes for foreigners.

Regarding this Australian girl, judging just by the few articles I read, one of the main qualities she seemed to lack us modesty. Another thing is that she has been convicted in court, even if not in Japan, and I think the expectation of a Geisha is to be unblemished.

To give you another example, one of the greatest Yokozuna of all time, Asashouryuu was forced to retire for his wrongful behavior outside the dohyou. Behaviour and manners matter in Japan.

As you describe I agree with you that for practical reasons a career as Geisha is difficult to chase for foreigners.
 
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Agree. I have actually met her on few occasions. Just social events in Tokyo. Not very good vibes. Very business like, not really your image of a geisha. But looks good in a kimono.
 
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If you go to Kyoto I don't think you'll have any problem. Many many shops dedicated to renting and assisting you with traditional Japanese dress. I saw Westerners, Japanese, Chinese, and many other nationalities that I don't feel confident enough in guessing, and no one seemed to have any problem with it. The truly amazing thing to me was that they went around all day and all over the city. I mean in hind site, that's a lot of work to get dressed up and NOT get to wear it for a while. At one point I even got to play reverse stereotype when a couple of teenage girls asked the western tourist covered in camera gear to take their picture (with their phones) in their geisha outfits in front of the cherry blossoms.

To be clear, I'm not saying you would have a problem doing this outside Kyoto, but just that as a city they seem to embrace the idea of everyone getting to experience a bit of traditional Japan.
 
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Even if cultural appropriation was created by retarded white people, it is still coming from all races now.

Black people lose their minds if a white person has dreads because dreads are "black people hair".

Mexican people lose their minds if a white person opens a Mexican restaurant and makes Mexican food because only "Mexican people" can make "Mexican food".

It is retarded no matter what race it is focused on.
 
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TokyoJoeblow said:
Even if cultural appropriation was created by retarded white people, it is still coming from all races now.

Black people lose their minds if a white person has dreads because dreads are "black people hair".

Mexican people lose their minds if a white person opens a Mexican restaurant and makes Mexican food because only "Mexican people" can make "Mexican food".

It is retarded no matter what race it is focused on.
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In some countries people are on the opposite happy if foreigners wear their traditional clothes. That's the case in my home country.
 
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e-smile said:
In some countries people are on the opposite happy if foreigners wear their traditional clothes. That's the case in my home country.
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Yes, and I'm also happy when they buy LV, Saint Laurent etc... good for jobs in my little country! :)
One thing I noticed also about the Japanese specifically is that they can make great French food too. Many French restaurants here , managed by Japanese chefs who spent just a few years learning in France, are much better than typical Parisian eateries (not to mention that the service is 100X better here)
 
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Frenchy said:
Yes, and I'm also happy when they buy LV, Saint Laurent etc... good for jobs in my little country! :)
One thing I noticed also about the Japanese specifically is that they can make great French food too. Many French restaurants here , managed by Japanese chefs who spent just a few years learning in France, are much better than typical Parisian eateries (not to mention that the service is 100X better here)
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Yeah Japan is well known for french restaurants and is said to have better ones than in France but I've never tried it. The idea of eating french food in Japan never crossed my mind but it does now :)

And yeah the service is the best here, and they don't even take tips.
 
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RandomTokyoGuy said:
@User#8628
I think you make a lot of very wrong assumptions about the Geisha/Maiko business. Just because there are some Geisha dinner options available to tourists doesn't mean it's a major income stream.

I have been lucky to experience Geisha / Maiko on a few business occasions. This are not the same situations where you would bring an escort.

The number of Geisha/Maiko is dwindling for probably many reasons including economic ones and the tough training. It is however still a mainly Japanese only business with a few peep holes for foreigners.

Regarding this Australian girl, judging just by the few articles I read, one of the main qualities she seemed to lack us modesty. Another thing is that she has been convicted in court, even if not in Japan, and I think the expectation of a Geisha is to be unblemished.

To give you another example, one of the greatest Yokozuna of all time, Asashouryuu was forced to retire for his wrongful behavior outside the dohyou. Behaviour and manners matter in Japan.

As you describe I agree with you that for practical reasons a career as Geisha is difficult to chase for foreigners.
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Let me clear that up, i said hostess, as in kyabajo, not escort. I'm fairly sure that hostesses are the modern version of geisha and almost completely replaced them, and geisha hold mostly a cultural value.
Does anyone know if geisha are still mistresses of the very rich, or if thats not something you can hope for with a geisha carreer anymore?

Personally, i have visited a geisha gathering at a Japanese restaurant with a Japanese client, so i wouldn't say its not a gathering where you bring an escort. ;)

Yes, i'd say its not possible for a gaijin to get into geisha schooling easily. Appearantly you have to be an anthropologist, but i dont know why they would still trust them easily after Lisa Dalby advised on Memoirs of a Geisha, and while one of the Japanese advisors, Mineko Iwasaki, made an angry outcry about the misconceptions in the book and the movie, Lisa stayed silent as far as i know. And now this Australian woman who seems to want to make her fortune of geisha and foreign tourism to Japan while honestly, with her degrees she should just be able to easily land a good paying job instead of building unsafe guesthouses.
 
wraithfive said:
If you go to Kyoto I don't think you'll have any problem. Many many shops dedicated to renting and assisting you with traditional Japanese dress. I saw Westerners, Japanese, Chinese, and many other nationalities that I don't feel confident enough in guessing, and no one seemed to have any problem with it. The truly amazing thing to me was that they went around all day and all over the city. I mean in hind site, that's a lot of work to get dressed up and NOT get to wear it for a while. At one point I even got to play reverse stereotype when a couple of teenage girls asked the western tourist covered in camera gear to take their picture (with their phones) in their geisha outfits in front of the cherry blossoms.

To be clear, I'm not saying you would have a problem doing this outside Kyoto, but just that as a city they seem to embrace the idea of everyone getting to experience a bit of traditional Japan.
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Yes, i've done this in Kyoto as well.
I went to a few different temples to take pictures.

The funny thing though is when western people take pictures of Chinese tourists in kimono and then go tell their family back home that they saw geisha, haha.

e-smile said:
In some countries people are on the opposite happy if foreigners wear their traditional clothes. That's the case in my home country.
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As far as i know, Japanese people generally like it. :)
 
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User#8628 said:
As far as i know, Japanese people generally like it. :)
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Same here, I had a lot of compliments when I wore Yukata and I remember two french girl wearing Yukata last year during Hanabi who had many positive comment as well.
Recently a girl I'm currently seeing asked me if I can wear one and said she thinks it's hot on foreigners.
 
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