Japanese Attitudes Toward Westerners (dating And Otherwise)

[Wwanderer]

Fwiiw, my take on the phenomenon (avoidance of gaijin on trains) is quite similar to meiji's. It certainly doesn't bother me personally; my skin is A LOT thicker than that. If I give it even a moments thought, I usually feel slightly amused.

I also don't see it as racism but rather as an attempt to avoid unexpected situations/interactions. Japanese culture puts a lot of emphasis on behaving properly in any given situation, and from a Japanese perspective, a gaijin is reasonably likely to do something so unexpected and outside the norm that you (the J person) will not have any idea how to respond properly, because there simply is no social template or script for the situation.

And to be very clear, I did not bring up the empty-seat-next-to-the-gaijin thing in order to accuse the Japanese of racism or anything else. My point is merely that someone who isn't willing to sit next to you on the train, whatever their reason, is surely even less likely to be willing to date you!

-Ww

 

[meiji]

In terms of dating/marriage, I'd echo some of the previous sentiments that PDA is pretty frowned upon in general. Both myself and my westerner friends had social lives separate from our SOs, AND together. Sometimes SOs show up, sometimes not (and it's not necessarily like it's a planned 'couples' event).

I don't think dating foreigners is only a function of foreign culture exposure, although that's a pretty obvious one. Japanese society generally doesn't treat women too well, so I think if you aren't a very successful Japanese woman (either very attractive, very wealthy, or very smart), and you are a middle class woman there's a chance you'll date a foreigner, and I think the older the woman gets, the greater that chance gets. Both men and women in Japan have gotten pretty sick of the standard Japanese family model (for different reasons) and the women especially don't want to do their assigned homemaker roles if a potential husband can't get a job or can't get a guaranteed lifetime job. I think additionally many middle class Japanese, especially in the bigger cities, do some traveling internationally, and also get a lot of exposure to foreign culture through movies, TV, etc.

I think as time goes on dating foreigners will get more common, primarily because rural populations are the ones that are dropping while Tokyo is still growing. I think it's as always dependent on foreigners being desirable, which means knowing a good amount of Japanese and having good jobs, etc.

 

[GoldenDalton]

Fwiiw, my take on the phenomenon (avoidance of gaijin on trains) is quite similar to meiji's. It certainly doesn't bother me personally; my skin is A LOT thicker than that. If I give it even a moments thought, I usually feel slightly amused.

I also don't see it as racism but rather as an attempt to avoid unexpected situations/interactions. Japanese culture puts a lot of emphasis on behaving properly in any given situation, and from a Japanese perspective, a gaijin is reasonably likely to do something so unexpected and outside the norm that you (the J person) will not have any idea how to respond properly, because there simply is no social template or script for the situation.

And to be very clear, I did not bring up the empty-seat-next-to-the-gaijin thing in order to accuse the Japanese of racism or anything else. My point is merely that someone who isn't willing to sit next to you on the train, whatever their reason, is surely even less likely to be willing to date you!

-Ww

With the seat thing, I couldn't care

Fwiiw, my take on the phenomenon (avoidance of gaijin on trains) is quite similar to meiji's. It certainly doesn't bother me personally; my skin is A LOT thicker than that. If I give it even a moments thought, I usually feel slightly amused.

I also don't see it as racism but rather as an attempt to avoid unexpected situations/interactions. Japanese culture puts a lot of emphasis on behaving properly in any given situation, and from a Japanese perspective, a gaijin is reasonably likely to do something so unexpected and outside the norm that you (the J person) will not have any idea how to respond properly, because there simply is no social template or script for the situation.

And to be very clear, I did not bring up the empty-seat-next-to-the-gaijin thing in order to accuse the Japanese of racism or anything else. My point is merely that someone who isn't willing to sit next to you on the train, whatever their reason, is surely even less likely to be willing to date you!

-Ww

In my opinion there's quite a bit of racism, more than in the U.S. and U.K. , and it should be ok to point it out. Of course, that doesn't mean it's wise to do so inside Japan, or that Japanese people are going to listen. Blaming only white Anglo males for the world's ills has gotten old, and we're going to see that type of discourse fade, as it's now at a peak with nowhere to go.

Naturally, I'm not accusing you of thinking like that, given you know much more than me, but I do think as Westerners we've been programmed to let non-western cultures off the hook in some matters, with exceptions such as non-western standards regarding gender roles.

I myself don't care about the seat thing, really. I stand just so elderly Japanese patrons can ride in comfort. The staring is a different issue. It's intrusive and quasi- threatening. Last time I was there I stared back, with an arrogant smirk. I really don't know a better way to deal with it. I'm a peaceful man, but I'm not comfortable allowing myself to get AMOG'd by a total stranger just because I'm a different ethnicity.

 

[Ast47]

Hi, I came across this thread by happenstance. I'm always surprised when I read threads like this, about the supposed difficulties faced by white westerners in Japan. None of this has ever been an issue for me. I'm a tall blonde white dude, and I've been married for 12 years to a Japanese woman. We live in NYC and live there now, but she's from rural Japan, not Tokyo, from a very small village in fact where Westerners are rarely seen. I've been there at least eighteen times, have spent more than a cumulative year there -- her family and her community have been kind and accepting from the beginning. I've had no problems whatsoever there or anywhere else in Japan, aside from one incident of Driving While Gaijin.

I've never noticed anyone avoiding me on the Tokyo metro, or any other train for that matter. In fact, I rarely get the idea that me being a foreigner is that big of a deal, except in the countryside where people are sometimes simply curious, but hardly prejudiced. I can walk alone anywhere, into any establishment, without a problem.

If anything, I would say there's a lot more racism and prejudice in the United States than in Japan. How many Americans would date a foreigner? How many white American families would accept a foreign, non-white son-in-law and daughter-in-law? My family showed a lot more discomfort with my wife than her family showed me. I suspect that, for many white Americans, Japan is the first place where they were a "minority" and that their self-consciousness was heightened as a result. They may be interpreting every little gesture from people around them through a lens of mild paranoia.

 

[GoldenDalton]

If anything, I would say there's a lot more racism and prejudice in the United States than in Japan. How many Americans would date a foreigner? How many white American families would accept a foreign, non-white son-in-law and daughter-in-law? My family showed a lot more discomfort with my wife than her family showed me. I suspect that, for many white Americans, Japan is the first place where they were a "minority" and that their self-consciousness was heightened as a result. They may be interpreting every little gesture from people around them through a lens of mild paranoia.

This is inaccurate. There are plenty of white American women in marriages with people of other nationalities and races. There are how many immigrants naturalized each year in the U.S. relative to Japan? When's the last time the Japanese elected a Zainichi prime minister? We can blame it in the in- group culture. That's fine and sensible. Still racist, though.

I think it's the opposite of the idea of encountering racism for the first time. There's plenty of anti- white racism in the U.S. if you know where to look. We often do our best to ignore racism by non- whites because of our rationalization hamsters.

I think what actually happens is that white Americans do everything to avoid questioning leftist/ critical race theory, so much so that when they encounter blatant racism it causes cognitive dissonance.

 

[User#3673]

I have read this thread with interest. Valid opinions all. I find it interesting, and the longer I live in Japan, the more I find opinions vary on a) Where you live in Japan and b) Your ethnicity.
One friend looks Japanese and feels there is very little racism here. There is more back in the USA he feels. I live in the sticks in Japan, and really enjoy going to Tokyo because it reminds me of home in that I am treated just like a regular guy.
I love that. Where I live in the countryside, I am stared at, and objectified, and also admired. It goes hand in hand. Often women think I am tall and handsome. So that is one of the plusses. But yes I get stared at, at times. Treated like a movie
star at times, and often the seat next to me is one of the last ones taken (in my area). I don`t notice the last seat thing in Tokyo. People there are much more used to non-Japanese. This seat thing in my town, has changed for the better over the years.
I remember complaining about it ad nauseum 23 years ago. I never mention now (except here LOL!) I`ve lived in Japan for almost 25 years now. I am caucasian, and my wife is Japanese. Our family will get stared at.
But I take this to mean that our children are so beautiful and our family is very interesting.

Overall, even in the countryside, Japanese are pretty accepting of my family. That said I do have some pet peeves, but won`t go into them in depth. Mostly I like my life here. I am treated well most of the time. I am respected most of the time.

If you want to date a Japanese lady or man, I say go for it!

My advice on the staring: Ignore it! You will never stop it. It will take many more years for Japan to change. Enjoy being a pioneer in Japan`s quest for internationalism.
Japanese tend to stare without smiling. It can look threatening but rarely is. You just look different. No matter how many movies they have seen, or how many foreigners they have seen in person,
they still don`t see them often enough. They don`t seem to understand it is rude (the ones who do it). Most Japanese don`t do it.

Tokyo is a whole different ball game. I feel at home in Tokyo. You are not so much a gaijin in Tokyo. In the country though, it is quite different. Not bad, just different.

When I go to a party here, people will make a big deal of me. It helps me to get students. But the negative is you get stared at sometimes, and very, very rarely, you encounter a racist who is rude to you. But I can count on one hand how many times
that has happened.

Being rare sets up opportunity. If I were single and young again (sigh), I think living in the countryside might be cool. You would be very unique.

I think Asian people and people of African decent have it worse unfortunately. I agree with the people who have said that the caucasians who have never experienced being treated differently based on race will notice it here.

There is a lot of unintentional racism here. But there is also a lot of times when you get treated like a prince or a king. It swings both ways. And I think there are many, many Japanese women who are interested in dating non-Japanese. But you
are talking about the women with a more international outlook. And frankly, the women here who have a more insular outlook are not as interesting anyway. You are going to be attracted to the Japanese who are special, because they are special.

A great book on all of this is "My Name is Loco, I am a Racist," by Baye Macneil (I think). He is African American and has spent many years in Yokohama. Which I would argue is not as accepting of non-Japanese as Tokyo is.

 

[cabbie]

If you're looking for a response to the staring thing, you might want to give this book cover a go.
http://arnikristjansson.com/?/graphics/staringbook/

 

[Solong]

I don't think this is as true today as it may have once been. There are so many J-girl/foreign guy couples in Tokyo now (not to mention half Japanese kids and babies) that it would have to be an ultra-nationalist who lives in a cupboard...

...But I expect these attitudes to die out as the older generation die off.

The situation partially depends if it's a Japanese MAN with a foreign woman VS a Japanese WOMAN with a foreign man.

There is a lot of male territorial behavior involved, where men of a particular race feel they OWN or that ALL women of their race or nationality must LIKE them OR stay within their race/nationality. Men who think like this can be highly HYPOCRITICAL, where they think it's fine for them to date foreign women.
Japanese man + foreign woman = victory and "true love", while Japanese woman + foreign man = loss, national disgrace, whore, "only sex", penis size, etc...

This has similarities to the attitudes of White racist men towards Black men with White women, while they may have a total different thinking about White men with Black women or women of color.

There can be older Japanese, Japanese men, or very ultra conservative/nationalitic Japanese that give bad looks, say bad things, or put social/group pressure on Japanese women to not date or be seen with foreign men.

Some Japanese women are independent enough and have a strong enough character to reject such group pressure and backwards prejudice, BUT many Japanese women can NOT.

It's more of a struggle for Japanese women, because they have a much harder time going against group pressure than men do.

Japanese also have a kind of ranking system based of foreigners based on race, country, and language.

A White, blonde, blue-eyed American or British person is likely to see FAR LESS prejudice and discrimination than a Chinese, Turkish, or African would. However, the ultra-nationalism and groupism is still enough for even White blue-eyed Americans to notice, particularly if they have LIVED in Japan for a long time.

The Japanese form of discrimination is non-violent, because Japanese police don't tolerate any BS and have extraordinary arrest and detain powers beyond those of police in many Western countries. There will be no KKK cross burning on the lawns of minorities in Japan, BUT Japanese are not electing a White, Black, or Bi-racial person to any major political office any time soon.