Language question about how to call (name) the girl you're approaching

[fzym]

Hi,

So I have two questions:

1) I never used お姉ちゃん because I always felt it was just nampa over cliche, like saying "hey how about getting laid", and the best way to be instantly rejected.
Am I wrong, do you actually use it and it's just normal?

2) Once you know her name, when do you switch to ちゃん ? Assuming she's young enough for ちゃん.
Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I'm quite parcimonious with ちゃん to not sound "intrusive", most usually I say さん at first and then just use her name, and ちゃん only if she has an obvious young-ish a ttitude, is obviously open to interaction and the degree of connexion seems good enough.

But I also feel like it's more normal than I think, that speaking as if you were already connected can push towards being actually connected, and maybe that it also sort of puts you above her in some way, which can be a good thing in that context.

I don't know, what are your thoughts?

 

[TAG Manager]

2) Once you know her name, when do you switch to ちゃん ? Assuming she's young enough for ちゃん.

Chan isn't reserved for younger (or smaller) people. That's probably more like the respectful junior term, -kun.
....and chan is used for people you know in closer proximity or a less informal/causal relationship.
たん (tan) is also used a cute/causal suffix, especially with pet names.

This is all a bit subjective depending on who you are around and I think there are some generational differences.

Gf says that if you approach her blindly or without established connections with a -chan suffix, she'd ignore you or not take you seriously. (if you're obvs a foreigner, she won't take it so seriously, but still... shows you lacking class)
She and I both also agree that approaching an adult women with onee-san is probably more respectable and sensible. The opposite of that would just be plain weird.

 

[fzym]

Chan isn't reserved for younger (or smaller) people. That's probably more like the respectful junior term, -kun.
....and chan is used for people you know in closer proximity or a less informal/causal relationship.
たん (tan) is also used a cute/causal suffix, especially with pet names.

This is all a bit subjective depending on who you are around and I thing there are some generational differences.

Gf says that if you approach her blindly or without established connections with a -chan suffix, she'd ignore you or not take you seriously. (if you're obvs a foreigner, she won't take it so seriously, but still... shows you lacking class)
She and I both also agree that approaching an adult women with onee-san is probably more respectable and sensible. The opposite of that would just be plain weird.

First thank you very much for your developed answer, and thanks to your GF for her kind contribution.

Regarding chan generally, yes, indeed I have friendly relationships with some women older than me that are -chan, just as something casual or kind.
And on the other hand, some girls prefer being called only by their name, without chan. So yes, definitely some subjectivity and air-reading.
Generational difference, do you mean chan is perceived differently by younger generations, and is something with less "rules" than it used to be?

Ok, so your girlfriend confirms that onee chan isn't a good idea, I thought so.

So, onee san is considered a normal good way? (Even if she's obviously younger, considering onee is for older sister?)
If I really have to designate her I use anata, taking a very careful / polite voice and open hands to show I don't mean to use it in a rude way, but as much as I can I avoid it. So onee san would be the natural way?

And if the connection is good, does your girlfriend say something about adding chan to her name once she gave it to you? My apologies for the many questions, I'm trying to clarify all that.

Sometimes if we've been speaking long enough I also simply ask her what she prefers. Answers vary.
If I'm not wrong they seem to appreciate that I care about it and about how they feel about it, but I also would like to have enough points of reference myself to not have to ask.

Thank you!!

 

[TAG Manager]

Generational difference, do you mean chan is perceived differently by younger generations, and is something with less "rules" than it used to be?

Actually, more rules. So, the perception could be different depending on who you are talking to. If you study the conversation framework for different generations (just listening to random conversations) you can pick up on some differ iterations between age groups.

k, so your girlfriend confirms that onee chan isn't a good idea, I thought so.

In her words, it's like saying "hey little girl" in a creepy kind of way, especially from someone you don't know.

So, onee san is considered a normal good way? (Even if she's obviously younger, considering onee is for older sister?)

We hope that you're talking to people that are of-age, so that should qualify them for the -san suffix. However, you do get some extra headroom for being a foreigner who is assumed to not understand the social construct.

So, onee san is considered a normal good way? (Even if she's obviously younger, considering onee is for older sister?)
If I really have to designate her I use anata, taking a very careful / polite voice and open hands to show I don't mean to use it in a rude way, but as much as I can I avoid it. So onee san would be the natural way?

And if the connection is good, does your girlfriend say something about adding chan to her name once she gave it to you? My apologies for the many questions, I'm trying to clarify all that.

Sometimes if we've been speaking long enough I also simply ask her what she prefers. Answers vary.
If I'm not wrong they seem to appreciate that I care about it and about how they feel about it, but I also would like to have enough points of reference myself to not have to ask.

Generally speaking, after you have established the communication and you have a name, it's best for you to iron out the honorifics early on. Definitely start with the name-san usage format until she infers that you're being too formal for a casual relationship.

 

[fzym]

Actually, more rules. So, the perception could be different depending on who you are talking to. If you study the conversation framework for different generations (just listening to random conversations) you can pick up on some differ iterations between age groups.

Yes ok, I know what you mean.

And I'm also under the impression that sometimes using -chan is putting you more in a friend zone than in a potential partner zone, which is also not what you want.
Depends on the girls and contexts, air-reading again. And of course on how you use it, voice tone, distance / proximity etc, and on your general attitude, but, it's not something I would use systematically just because I'm allowed to.

In her words, it's like saying "hey little girl" in a creepy kind of way, especially from someone you don't know.

Ok, yes, it's a bit different from what I thought but it's still no good.

We hope that you're talking to people that are of-age, so that should qualify them for the -san suffix. However, you do get some extra headroom for being a foreigner who is assumed to not understand the social construct.

Yes, you're right to check but of course I don't talk to underage girls, if that's what you mean. And I just cut short if it appears they're less than 20.
Usually 20's - 30's, sometimes more. I'm not young so it still makes them most often younger than me, but as far as I can tell it's perfectly ok to -san a 20 something girl, as a simple mark of respect and because, well, you just don't know her.

Generally speaking, after you have established the communication and you have a name, it's best for you to iron out the honorifics early on. Definitely start with the name-san usage format until she infers that you're being too formal for a casual relationship.

Ok, that's exactly what I do.

Thanks very much again for all your answers, much appreciated and helpful.

I didn't know that onee san was actually common, so it gives me something to use confidently at start without stressing about being potentially out of track.
And for the rest, what you say is what I do, so you confirm I'm ok, both in the respect shown and care about that, and in the liberties taken and general "timing" in the conversation for ways to call her, which is also reassuring.

Although indeed there is more room for a foreigner to be not perfect on language uses, and most people are usually ok with that if it's clear you're doing your best to respect the Japanese manners, you don't wanna mess up an approach just because you sounded inappropriate while being actually of good will.

And knowing you're ok on that also allows you to free up your headspace, and use your energy and potential insecurity on more important things (such as, well, just being a charming guy talking with a charming girl, which is also just more fun than focusing on language sociology — although I love that in other contexts out of personal curiosity but, you know.

tl;dr: Thank you very much!

 

[Alice]

She and I both also agree that approaching an adult women with onee-san is probably more respectable and sensible.

I don’t hate it per se, but people calling me “onee-san” makes me feel like they regard me as older than them and guess my age as at least late 20s.
Not particularly flattering even if it’s true.

 

[TAG Manager]

I don’t hate it per se, but people calling me “onee-san” makes me feel like they regard me as older than them and guess my age as at least late 20s.
Not particularly flattering even if it’s true.

This is why I pointed out that people will have different receptions based on age/generation and of course, Japanese or not. At least for Japanese, going with -chan could make them feel immature or childish when being spoke to by a stranger, casually.
Gf did tell me recently that she still gets constant approaches when out alone, but none of them open with a -san or -chan line. It's always something about what she's wearing or if she's going somewhere with a plan or not.

Other approaches in nightlife area come down to shops looking for girls or host/hostess related businesses. She's very vanilla in that regard, so not receptive in a polite manner AT ALL. lol.

 

[fzym]

I don’t hate it per se, but people calling me “onee-san” makes me feel like they regard me as older than them and guess my age as at least late 20s.
Not particularly flattering even if it’s true.

I get that, and that's also what I would have thought, and one reason for which I wasn't using it.
Actually the main circumstances and almost the only ones in which I heard it, was more 50's guys calling the waitress or the 50's-60's shop owner (izakaya and such).
It didn't sound bad in itself, but a bit old-fashioned, and giving an old-time atmosphere to the conversation — which is not really what you want when approaching a girl.

So may I ask what is fine for you to be called, by a guy who doesn't know you?

 

[fzym]

Gf did tell me recently that she still gets constant approaches when out alone, but none of them open with a -san or -chan line. It's always something about what she's wearing or if she's going somewhere with a plan or not.

If it's not too much asking to you and to her, I would be glad to know what kind of approach your GF considered fine, I mean before she was involved in a relationship with you.
If not with any -san or -chan, I don't mean a line or trick to apply of course, and you adapt to the context and to your impression of each person etc, but a general idea. Like, "this kind of things is generally cool, this kind of things generally isn't".

Also the thing that I find hard for a westerner, but it's another point, is accepting the idea that a girl that doesn't answer you at first and keeps walking doesn't necessarily mean she's not open to talk, if you show yourself normal enough and good enough for that.
Of course there are ways of not answering that mean clear rejection and you just stop immediately, but in my country and in most I guess, a girl not answering directly means you just stop right away, no interpretation to have and 99% no exception to the fact that it's a no.
Walking alongside a girl and keeping talking to her sometimes for minutes until she finally laughs or answers and you're actually having a friendly conversation, really makes you feel really pushy, and accepting that it's actually ok, and actually doing it yourself without feeling like the worst guy on earth, is a big cultural shift to accept.
I actually still very rarely do it, I remember 1 time for sure and we finally talked nicely, but that's it. I just feel like I'm bothering her and I don't want that. Not mentioning that monologuing isn't the easiest way to communicate.

 

[TAG Manager]

If it's not too much asking to you and to her, I would be glad to know what kind of approach your GF considered fine, I mean before she was involved in a relationship with you.

She would usually be fine with an approach that's related to something she's interested in... like at a book store or shop with a specific theme.
She'd never respond to a street pickup. Or, something that isn't well vested. As she would say "Ask yourself, what the whole reason to talk to a stranger? Is it worth their time? or your time?" and so on...
Ironically, the whole reason we are together is because she followed me (chased?) to an elevator after we both picked up some french fries. I wasn't even paying attention and just asked what floor she's going to since I was next to the buttons. The rest is history.

Also the thing that I find hard for a westerner, but it's another point, is accepting the idea that a girl that doesn't answer you at first and keeps walking doesn't necessarily mean she's not open to talk, if you show yourself normal enough and good enough for that.
Of course there are ways of not answering that mean clear rejection and you just stop immediately, but in my country and in most I guess, a girl not answering directly means you just stop right away.
Walking alongside a girl and keeping talking to her sometimes for minutes until she finally laughs or answers and you're actually having a friendly conversation, really makes you feel really pushy, and accepting that it's actually ok, and actually doing it yourself without feeling like the worst guy on earth, is a big cultural shift to accept.
I actually still very rarely do it, I remember 1 time for sure and we finally talked nicely, but that's it. I just feel like I'm bothering her and I don't want that. Not mentioning that monologuing isn't the easiest way to communicate.

Don't really want to touch on this too much since we have friends that really get annoyed by men that don't take a hint and just give up.

 

[Alice]

So may I ask what is fine for you to be called, by a guy who doesn't know you?

I’m the kind of girl who likes the “oooi, Omae” approach, but I think that gets you a slap in the face from the majority of girls so would not recommend.

Also would not recommend “お茶しませんか” if you don’t want to sound like a 60 years old picking up a high schooler.

I’m not sure, maybe try to avoid name calling although it’s a bit impersonal. Just something like “where are you going” or something like TAG manager said.
Or maybe “kimi”? Although it’s also a bit slimy I guess.

 

[TAG Manager]

Also would not recommend “お茶しませんか” if you don’t want to sound like a 60 years old picking up a high schooler.

Oh, that's a good one... That's such an accurate representation of an older age group.

 

[Cinnabums]

Many providers call me .........ちゃん！
Like it alot.

 

[CharlieSimms]

Many providers call me .........ちゃん！
Like it alot.

異教ハンマーちゃん！！☺️

 

[fzym]

She would usually be fine with an approach that's related to something she's interested in... like at a book store or shop with a specific theme.

Yeah, in other words, "normal things"

It's not always the case to have something to naturally react to to start a convo, but of course that's the best scenario, or at least to find one on the spot, like oh nice shoes or whatever can give you an starting point.
That's also what I try to do, and where's there's nothing except you find her cute, well, I just improvise trying to sound not too cliche or fake. Works or not, but that's also life.
At some point of the game she's also free to have a good feel about you and be interested in persuing even a shallow conversation just to keep talking, or to not and just say ciao.
And probably if there's something more than finding her cute she'll feel something and feed the convo, and if not it means you'll find another one with no regret.
(Trying to be wise lol.)

Ironically, the whole reason we are together is because she followed me (chased?) to an elevator after we both picked up some french fries. I wasn't even paying attention and just asked what floor she's going to since I was next to the buttons. The rest is history.

Sounds like a nice story

Don't really want to touch on this too much since we have friends that really get annoyed by men that don't take a hint and just give up.

No worries. But just one question to be sure, at first I was surprised because I thought you meant female friends that would like guys to fight more for them, but actually you mean male friends advising other guys, right? I won't launch an uncomfortable debate, just to make sure I get what you're saying.

 

[Sudsy]

.........ちゃん

早く行く寝らせるちゃん？

 

[fzym]

I’m the kind of girl who likes the “oooi, Omae” approach, but I think that gets you a slap in the face from the majority of girls so would not recommend.

Haha yes, I think I get why you like that, but I won't use it as a rule
And also it's not just my type to do that, unless maybe I had a couple of drinks and can do it with some humor and she may laugh.
Yet sometimes if we're not walking I just look at her and say a plain and frank konnichiha without adding a sentence right away, that feels a bit like ooi omae, with less potential risk to be found "offensive", if I may say so. (I guess.)

The balance between boldness and not invading her personal space isn't an easy thing to manage I think, especially when you have 2 seconds to make a good impression. Hence although I'm not shy, or when I feel impressed and super incertain I overcome that and go for it anyways, but I find myself quite regularly showing both boldness and insecurity.
Insecurity isn't good, and mixing it with boldness probably also makes the girl feel not really comfortable, like hey, choose your side, dude.
Or excessive "don't want to bother you", which comes from, well genuinely not wanting to bother her, which I guess is good, but also easily turns into giving an insecurity feeling as if you were saying 3 sumi masen in a row, which ain't good.

Also would not recommend “お茶しませんか” if you don’t want to sound like a 60 years old picking up a high schooler.

Lol yes.

I’m not sure, maybe try to avoid name calling although it’s a bit impersonal. Just something like “where are you going” or something like TAG manager said.

I do things like "where are you going" sometimes, but try to avoid it as first approach cause I'm a bit uncomfortable with sounding too much "hey cute girl this is nampa", thinking it might just make her feel like "no sorry I'm not just a cute girl and not interested in someone seeing me as just a cute girl and just wanting to get laid with me because of that".
Although nampa can also come from something more than just finding she's cute, but, I guess you know what I mean.
But maybe I'm overthinking it and it's actually fine to sound like it's what it is aka nampa? (As long as you're also a normal human being and if possible a charming one.)

I’m not sure, maybe try to avoid name calling although it’s a bit impersonal.

Actually as long as I don't have to designate her I probably delay the moment where I'll have to call her anything, and try to talk without it at first.

For kimi, hmmm, yes, what I've been told about kimi is basically that except in love songs, it's really putting you above your interlocutor, like socially, at least that's what I understood.

Isn't omae a bit "agressive" if you're not already friends with someone? I also would have thought it was mainly used with guys.

 

[fzym]

Many providers call me .........ちゃん！
Like it alot.

Oh, ok. Like, your name-chan once they know it, or, something-chan right away?

I feel like basically it's ok to chan if the girl is already interested in you or is already enjoying chatting with you, but using it right away can be too familiar at first. You think I'm wrong?

 

[Cinnabums]

早く行く寝らせるちゃん？

Me in a nutshell, the girls love me.

 

[CharlieSimms]

Me in a nutshell, the girls love me.

Oh.. you write something like that.. and you know I just have to… 🥺

 

[Alice]

Isn't omae a bit "agressive" if you're not already friends with someone? I also would have thought it was mainly used with guys.

Yeah it is, most girls don’t even accept their boyfriend calling them that, but what can I say, I like an aggressive approach.

I kinda dig the “konnichiwa” as well, could totally see that work in a drinking environment. (Would probably have to drink some myself as well to appreciate that though.)

Also nampa is always kind of obvious imo. I wouldn’t take offense feeling like “this guy is talking to me because he thinks I’m cute”, unless it has the vibe of someone who is taking to every girl who passes by who is above a 6 to him or something, and even then, if the guy is hot I guess there could be a mutual use in that?

But I might be an outlier in this way of thinking because Japanese ladies prefer some deniability in case of a scandal. So they may want to tell themselves that even though a guy chatted them up , it was not really nampa.
But I have dated someone in the past who I have met at a fancy public place who started conversation with a question and displayed interest and helpfulness.
It’s still just nampa to me personally. No different from the street to me. But again that may feel different for someone else.

 

[fzym]

Hey, sorry I was on the rush these days.

but what can I say, I like an aggressive approach

Yes, that's why I said I got it that you like omae, I figured you liked agressive style.

By the way may I ask if you're Japanese or a foreigner? Your English sounds more like native English, and even if you're Japanese I get that you're not typical and that I should take your answers with a grain of salt, but just wondering, if you don't mind of course.

I kinda dig the "konnichiwa" as well, could totally see that work in a drinking environment. (Would probably have to drink some myself as well to appreciate that though.)

Ok cool, yes mostly drinking environnment, or can be just in a chill environment where the girl isn't going somewhere or doing anything in particular, like she's in a slow pace and you're not interrupting her.
In drinking places I also just simply say kanpai, when I or the girl receives a drink, we kanpai and if she's happy to kanpai we start chatting, most often it's pretty smooth.

Also nampa is always kind of obvious imo. I wouldn't take offense feeling like "this guy is talking to me because he thinks I'm cute", unless it has the vibe of someone who is taking to every girl who passes by who is above a 6 to him or something, and even then, if the guy is hot I guess there could be a mutual use in that?

Yes, I see. Actually that's really a point, for me at least. Finding the balance between "it's ok that it's pretty clear, don't overthink it", "have a natural thing to say that sounds like just normal life and you have no particular agenda", and evaluate the girl's openness to nampa that is nampa, as opposed to "oh, I just met a nice guy", how she's used to nampa or not, what she thinks about it or what she wants to pretend she thinks about it, … and how to negociate all that.
They can all meet naturally because it's actually natural, and likely because you have a genuine interest of the girl besides the fact that she's cute.
But when you're not in a state of grace, it's a good way lose your confidence and just be awkward.

I'm often trying to avoid letting her understand that actually she just burnt my eyes and right now that's it, because of fear of making her not respected as a real person and not only a cute girl.
But maybe I overthink it and should just be fine with that.

Japanese ladies prefer some deniability in case of a scandal. So they may want to tell themselves that even though a guy chatted them up , it was not really nampa

Yes, totally. The other day I was having a date with a girl and she said she wasn't used to be talked to by strangers, and after a short back-and-forth she said well or it's just nampa, and laughed, and I was thinking, well, I did genuinely like your energy, but what do you think, it was definitely nampa.

They also like to ask you "what made you talk to me, why did you want to talk to me?" with a perfectly genuine face.
So I usually answer something like, well of course I thought you were very suteki or kawaii or whatever comes, … but beyond that, "I liked your energy", "thought you had kind eyes, nice style…", emphasizing this one as the important or trigger-reason. Which can totally be sincere, but I'm also like, really?
I never really know if I'm supposed to explicit that I found her cute, usually if she asks why talking to her I will mention it, but, I never know if she wants to hear it, because hey, it's cool, or if she wants to hear something deeper than that, or that just differentiates from the 2458 other guys that might have approached her today for the same reason.

But I have dated someone in the past who I have met at a fancy public place who started conversation with a question and displayed interest and helpfulness.
It’s still just nampa to me personally. No different from the street to me.

Yes, I agree, it's kind nampa, which is totally cool, but it's nampa.

 

[Alice]

By the way may I ask if you're Japanese or a foreigner? Your English sounds more like native English, and even if you're Japanese I get that you're not typical and that I should take your answers with a grain of salt, but just wondering, if you don't mind of course.

Oh I’m very much a white girl (Europe) lol.

But I have lived in Japan for a long time so people say my character is sometimes like a Japanese person.
That said I don’t vibe all too well with a lot of Japanese girls, I wouldn’t say I’m exactly one of them.
Most of my friends are foreigners or partly Japanese but have been here for a long time.
So kind of in the middle.

 

[fzym]

Oh I’m very much a white girl (Europe) lol.

But I have lived in Japan for a long time so people say my character is sometimes like a Japanese person.
That said I don’t vibe all too well with a lot of Japanese girls, I wouldn’t say I’m exactly one of them.
Most of my friends are foreigners or partly Japanese but have been here for a long time.
So kind of in the middle.

Ok I see, thanks for clarifying
And thanks for all your thoughtful answers, I very much appreciate!

 

[Ken Obi]

OP: ちゃん is way too familiar for someone you've just met, IMHO, nampa or not... I get a similar feeling when some older women use "darlin'" on me when we've just met (often restaurant or hospital staff)


1. I've never called a woman お姉ちゃん or お姉さん in conversation. If I don't know her name yet, well, you don't need really pronouns and names in Japanese convo... (though I suppose you could always use そちら)
2. Once name comes in, I use さん sparingly only to clarify context, never ちゃん

My favourite openers:
わあ...うまそう (they were seated eating street yakitori at 6am after clubbing; I ordered some and we exchanged laughter and LINE)
疲れた! 楽しかったけど,どこかに飲み行きたい (at a light, outside combini, LINE)
いっぱい 降ってっるね (outside hotel, waiting for rain to pause a bit; great convo and LINE, but fumbled the bounce)
こんにちは, こんばんは (my standard go to in pretty much any situation)

What I'm trying to say is that you can feel free to lose names, and just launch into convo.