Las Vegas Shooting -- 59 Dead

[MikeH]

To protect yourself against .... what exactly?

Truck drivers maybe? If my memory serves me right the Bastille Day guy still killed more than this gun guy?

If laws are so good at stopping bad things to happen maybe we should have a law to say it's not ok to kill people. After that everything would be good.

 

[Frenchy]

Truck drivers maybe? If my memory serves me right the Bastille Day guy still killed more than this gun guy?

If laws are so good at stopping bad things to happen maybe we should have a law to say it's not ok to kill people. After that everything would be good.

Well look at the gun laws in Japan , smart ass.

By the way I am totally fine not to carry a machine gun everytime I go to a party outside , just in case a truck would attack us. I take my chances. And parties full of machine guns owners would not be that fun anyway.

 

[MikeH]

Well look at the gun laws in Japan , smart ass.

This discussion is going exactly like all those ones before. As said anything else than interesting.

Are you implying that because Japan has laws against killing people nobody gets killed or that if they'd allow guns people would start shooting up each other everyday in the streets?

People have the most creative ways to do bad if they so desire. Anyone who thinks there are easy solutions for complex problems is just kidding himself.

 

[Frenchy]

This discussion is going exactly like all those ones before. As said anything else than interesting.

Are you implying that because Japan has laws against killing people nobody gets killed or that if they'd allow guns people would start shooting up each other everyday in the streets?

People have the most creative ways to do bad if they so desire. Anyone who thinks there are easy solutions for complex problems is just kidding himself.

Agreed its not simple. But your opinion is that there is nothing to do about it, right? Its just like hurricanes, earthquakes etc... acts of God. Gimme a break.

 

[psd]

Even if better laws etc. get put into place to keep guns away from criminals, that still wouldn’t have done anything in this case. From what I understand, the shooter was a retired accountant with no criminal record or terrorist affiliation, who bought all of his guns legally. Background checks wouldn’t have revealed anything that would prevent him from being able to purchase the guns.

When I served in the Army front line ammunition was 60 rounds per soldier. This guy had 10,000 rounds, enough for an entire rifle company, and over twenty guns. So, yes he would not have been flagged as a risk but he should never have been able to access anywhere near that quantity.

 

[jhingy567]

If access to guns were that easy, and I had one lying around at home, I'm sure there were some moments during my teen years where I would've offed myself - it's just too easy to pull a trigger and finish a life instantly.

 

[MikeH]

Agreed its not simple. But your opinion is that there is nothing to do about it, right?

Yeah, you got me, that's exactly what I said.

My message could never in a million years to be understood that just reacting blindly to a terrible event by enacting new laws because they feel good don't solve the real problem, right?

As I said there are countries with more strict gun laws than US and there are less killing. And there are countries with more relaxed gun laws than US and again there are less killings. So maybe the problem is not the gun laws, no?

But as also said, this discussion has been done so many times and with the same results that I see myself out now.

 

[Frenchy]

Yeah, you got me, that's exactly what I said.

My message could never in a million years to be understood that just reacting blindly to a terrible event by enacting new laws because they feel good don't solve the real problem, right?

As I said there are countries with more strict gun laws than US and there are less killing. And there are countries with more relaxed gun laws than US and again there are less killings. So maybe the problem is not the gun laws, no?

But as also said, this discussion has been done so many times and with the same results that I see myself out now.

So what would you suggest if not changing the laws? (Which i agree is not enough)

 

[MikeH]

If access to guns were that easy, and I had one lying around at home, I'm sure there were some moments during my teen years where I would've offed myself - it's just too easy to pull a trigger and finish a life instantly.

Well, then you and million others are very different. As even I had an easy access to guns all my life and still I have never offed myself, not even once.

Then again jumping in front of the train is easier than shooting yourself in the head and has even better probabilities killing you. So why did you not jump then?

 

[AMcguyver]

As I said there are countries with more strict gun laws than US and there are less killing. And there are countries with more relaxed gun laws than US and again there are less killings. So maybe the problem is not the gun laws, no?

Maybe we're going about this the wrong way.

 

[psd]

Well, then you and million others are very different. As even I had an easy access to guns all my life and still I have never offed myself, not even once.

Then again jumping in front of the train is easier than shooting yourself in the head and has even better probabilities killing you. So why did you not jump then?

You know most gun deaths in the US are suicide?

 

[Durg50]

If access to guns were that easy, and I had one lying around at home, I'm sure there were some moments during my teen years where I would've offed myself - it's just too easy to pull a trigger and finish a life instantly.

Nailed it! Me too

 

[jhingy567]

Well, then you and million others are very different. As even I had an easy access to guns all my life and still I have never offed myself, not even once.

Then again jumping in front of the train is easier than shooting yourself in the head and has even better probabilities killing you. So why did you not jump then?

Well, jumping in front of a train is harder work than pulling a trigger and also not guaranteed. And the death may be painful - seen videos of people still alive after losing half their body. Blowing out my brains seems like a better option.
Now if I had indeed offed myself - ofcourse you won't say lax gun laws are to blame, but rather my mental illness. All I say is a gun within arms reach of a mentally unwell person doesn't help things.

 

[MikeH]

So what would you suggest if not changing the laws? (Which i agree is not enough)

It seems I didn't see myself out yet.

I would start by giving everyone access to public healthcare, including mental health.

Also I am not against changing the laws, just against changing them in panic mode to make people feel safe and good as that's not the real solution and won't stop mass killings.

You know most gun deaths in the US are suicide?

Sure, but don't see the relevance to this discussion. The countries with most suicides in the world have strict gun laws and still people off themselves. Hanging, jumping in front of trains and poison are good choices too. Again, give people access to health care (and remove poverty) and suicides go down.

 

[psd]

Sure, but don't see the relevance to this discussion. The countries with most suicides in the world have strict gun laws and still people off themselves. Hanging, jumping in front of trains and poison are good choices too. Again, give people access to health care (and remove poverty) and suicides go down.

It was raised as a reason not to have guns and you dismissed it saying guns aren't a good way of committing suicide.

This is the level of discussion that Americans have about gun laws, but the entire country is fucked up so it's no particular surprise.

 

[jhingy567]

True, suicide was not really the main point of my post. Just illustrating how easy it is to finish a life with a powerful tool. Was just hoping people could picture a slightly different scenario with a young kid having some beef(the bad sort) at school but easy access to guns at home...

 

[hkAlone]

I do agree that nobody will change its mind about guns control there. Then no point to discuss this.

Let's at least agree it's a tragic event.

I am in this particular case really amazed by the profile of the killer. How a rich retired guy from Nevada turned into a mass killing shooter ?
I would bet in some tumor in the brain.
Hope he didn't blow his head when he killed himself.

 

[Frenchy]

I do agree that nobody will change its mind about guns control there. Then no point to discuss this.

Let's at least agree it's a tragic event.

I am in this particular case really amazed by the profile of the killer. How a rich retired guy from Nevada turned into a mass killing shooter ?
I would bet in some tumor in the brain.
Hope he didn't blow his head when he killed himself.

If the "anything is OK, lets authorize all kinds of crazy weapons to be sold to all kinds of crazy people in whatever quantity they want" crowd does not change their mind after this kind of event, yeah, youre right, nobody will change its mind ever.

That doesnt mean I think the rules should be changed hastily just based on the current emotions due to this horrific slaughter, but you have ever larger mass shootings in the US every year or so and it seems its never the right time to change anything anyway (except to make the rules even looser)

 

[MikeH]

but the entire country is fucked up so it's no particular surprise.

So wouldn't that be the real reason for the mass killings then? Even if we prevent anyone from accessing guns, trucks and aeroplanes I am pretty sure people find other ways to kill each others if they think the whole country is fucked up.

If the "anything is OK, lets authorize all kinds of crazy weapons to be sold to all kinds of crazy people in whatever quantity they want" crowd

So how big you actually estimate that crowd to be?

And parties full of machine guns owners would not be that fun anyway.

Now I am sure you have never been in a party full of machine gun owners. But then I have to admit I am partial to girls who know how to handle a gun. Though I have to confess I did actually like the parties where we had a bunch of artillery owners too even more.

 

[Frenchy]

So wouldn't that be the real reason for the mass killings then? Even if we prevent anyone from accessing guns, trucks and aeroplanes I am pretty sure people find other ways to kill each others if they think the whole country is fucked up.



So how big you actually estimate that crowd to be?



Now I am sure you have never been in a party full of machine gun owners. But then I have to admit I am partial to girls who know how to handle a gun. Though I have to confess I did actually like the parties where we had a bunch of artillery owners too even more.

Good point , actually the crowd is not that big , it is just powerful , well-funded and buying enough congressmen votes to get to this kind of great results : a guy can LEGALLY buy enough machine guns and ammos to shoot hundreds of people from a hotel room... all in the name of that 2nd amendment. Because the Founding Fathers (or whomever made this amendment) obviously thought it should serve for that purpose.

Look I don't even talk about a ban on gun possession here. I just think there should be some reasonable limits and super strong vetting and ongoing checks . Again look at the Japanese regulation : it doesn't say you can't own a gun , but if you want one then the rules are extremely strict .

I can't understand why the same guys who want "extreme vetting" at their borders to avoid terrorists and "bad hombres" are so lax when it comes to buying guns in their own country . I don't see the logic here

 

[TAG Manager]

I can't understand why the same guys who want "extreme vetting" at their borders to avoid terrorists and "bad hombres" are so lax when it comes to buying guns in their own country . I don't see the logic here

Point of clarification here --- The laws follow a Federal > State > Local format. Federal laws supersede state & local laws but the detailed controls usually reside with the state and local laws. Some states and localities have fairly lax rules while others are a bit too strict in some cases. (a matter of opinion on the latter part)

The basic principle is that if you're an adult and don't have any criminal record or records of mental instability (in some areas) then you are permitted to by a firearm. Shotguns and rifles are usually easier to buy than say a handgun. After that, there's no strict monitoring (I think) about the number of firearms you can buy but there are limits in some states about how many and how often you can buy. I'm talking about legal firearm transactions that are recorded by a licensed dealer, who is overseen by the ATF. (I don't have a criminal record, but I have held a government clearance which would flag me for a hold and manual review before a purchase is approved in the legal channels....)

All of the backroom, illegal and unrecorded transactions are the ones skirting the law bringing both illegal and unregistered firearms to the hand of people that shouldn't have them.

In the same breath with drug smuggling, weapons smuggling is right up there in the same bracket.

 

[MikeH]

Again look at the Japanese regulation : it doesn't say you can't own a gun , but if you want one then the rules are extremely strict .

In practise though the Japanese laws pretty much say you can't own a gun. Except in the case when you are really rich and own big areas of land you won't get a license for even a shotgun.

Even if you pass all the written and practical tests and other hoops mandated by the law they can just refuse to give you a license. And handguns licenses don't even exist.

And still my claim is you could give the Japanese the same access to guns as the Americans have and you would not get mass shootings.

 

[TAG Manager]

And still my claim is you could give the Japanese the same access to guns as the Americans have and you would not get mass shootings.

No, we have elderly drivers going the wrong way on the expressway, bus drivers falling asleep and crazy nuts going on rampages in nursing homes.
And lest we forget about the Akihabara truck/knife attack.


Edit: oh and the dude that fell asleep while driving a drain at 120 km/h

 

[Frenchy]

Point of clarification here --- The laws follow a Federal > State > Local format. Federal laws supersede state & local laws but the detailed controls usually reside with the state and local laws. Some states and localities have fairly lax rules while others are a bit too strict in some cases. (a matter of opinion on the latter part)

The basic principle is that if you're an adult and don't have any criminal record or records of mental instability (in some areas) then you are permitted to by a firearm. Shotguns and rifles are usually easier to buy than say a handgun. After that, there's no strict monitoring (I think) about the number of firearms you can buy but there are limits in some states about how many and how often you can buy. I'm talking about legal firearm transactions that are recorded by a licensed dealer, who is overseen by the ATF. (I don't have a criminal record, but I have held a government clearance which would flag me for a hold and manual review before a purchase is approved in the legal channels....)

All of the backroom, illegal and unrecorded transactions are the ones skirting the law bringing both illegal and unregistered firearms to the hand of people that shouldn't have them.

In the same breath with drug smuggling, weapons smuggling is right up there in the same bracket.

Then by this same logic of allowing states to fudge the federal laws I suppose "strict states" should start having borders controls to check whomever is coming from the "lax states" , otherwise it doesnt make much sense: anybody can buy something in , say, Texas which would not be permitted in , say, Vermont and go on a rampage in Vermont

 

[Frenchy]

No, we have elderly drivers going the wrong way on the expressway, bus drivers falling asleep and crazy nuts going on rampages in nursing homes.
And lest we forget about the Akihabara truck/knife attack.


Edit: oh and the dude that fell asleep while driving a drain at 120 km/h

So... you're not glad you live in Japan , after all ?