The Game

[DJV]

There are many different ways to sell [emoji8] .

And you do know that guys here are mostly mongers and that many would agree with simply because you are an escort or a woman (and pretty)?

This is a bit rude and unfair.
I don't think that having too deep / frequent conversations helps the recruiting. Some other escorts have already found the optimum IMO.

 

[User#16452]

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[Solong]

This is a bit rude and unfair.
I don't think that having too deep / frequent conversations helps the recruiting. Some other escorts have already found the optimum IMO.

I'm sorry dear knight for offending the honor of thy lady in this echo chamber.
[emoji6]

 

[Wwanderer]

Imo, negging should NEVER be applied to women in two broad categories:

1 - Women who have ever been in Hokkaido

and

2 - Women who have never been in Hokkaido

There is a grey area as well - women who are located somewhere precisely on the boundary of Hokkaido and are about to enter it for the first time. In those rare cases negging might be apprpriate in some cases...but even then only via the third level version of negging as taught in the Toasted Tiger school of PUA.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Some people are nice, some are not. Avoid the ones who are not and be nice to the ones who are.

Yeah. I mean seriously, could it possibly be any simpler??

Sometimes PUA sounds like (I'm sure someone will say it is not) the study techniques for getting into relationships with and/or the pants of attractive but unpleasant women of bad character.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

In other words, morality aside, it wets panties, when done correctly.

I have noticed that you use the phrase "morality aside" fairly frequently, and I am not certain what you mean by it, but to me it seems that morality is rather precisely exactly what one should not/never lay aside in one's behavior. Suppose I said, morality aside, financial pyramid schemes are an effective way to make money. Well, yes...true, but how or why do you get to give yourself a (moral) pass on doing something that is wrong?

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Negging and a lot of other PUA "tricks" are about manipulating someone psychologically.

I'm sure there are women out there who are looking for a one night stand/boyfriend/whatever, but if they are, why do you need to use routines and be manipulative?

In various previous PUA debates, I have mentioned that the issues being discussed were not among my primary criticisms of PUA/nampa. Fwiiw the above comments, however, do express one of the major issues/downsides imo.

There are human interactions in which I think intentional manipulation of the other person's psychology is perfectly ok (poker, brawling, warfare for examples), but it is an adversarial thing to do (and creates an adversarial situation) and has no proper place in romantic or dating situations in my view.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Yeah. I mean seriously, could it possibly be any simpler??

Sometimes PUA sounds like (I'm sure someone will say it is not) the study techniques for getting into relationships with and/or the pants of attractive but unpleasant women of bad character.

-Ww

So, do you think only PUAs talk to hot looking women with attitudes?

Newsflash, a lot of women who are rated 9 or 10, have attitudes. And various women at this level feel they can get away with it, because of their beauty. Hell, there are ugly chicks that can have attitudes, and the guy near them just happens to be horny. And some guys actually like the challenge of feisty women, be they PUAs or not.

 

[Wwanderer]

I'm not sure you are aware of the average experience of men trying to meet women. They give ENDLESS amounts of shit to EVERY guy who talks to them. They point out every single weakness. Again, this isn't a moral judgment, just truth.

Women will fling ALL kinds of shit at men. If you think this is something that only I experience, or Solong, or anyone else, let's strap a camera to any random dude (you can pick) and we'll send him in to talk to girls - no "negging" or "tricks" required - and you'll see just how nasty women can be to men.

I quote only a couple of representative passages from a long post.

This is the second time that you have given an argument that appears to be along the lines of "it's ok for me to do something wrong if others do something as bad or worse (to me)". The last time you said it wasn't what you meant, but I don't know what you mean this time if it isn't meant as a justification for men to treat women badly....a "tit for tat" or "he/she started it" sort of childish justification.

-Ww

 

[Sudsy]

how or why do you get to give yourself a (moral) pass on doing something that is wrong?

To be fair, we all have different systems of morals, or different interpretations of what it means to be moral. I grew up down the road from a father who used to regularly beat his sons... because he felt it was necessary to make them tough. In his eyes, he was acting out of a moral imperative. People don't generally simply do things they think are wrong; they find a way to rationalize them to fit their own moral code, thus removing the "wrongness".

I remember once reading a brilliant quote, "Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend."

 

[Wwanderer]

To be fair, we all have different systems of morals, or different interpretations of what it means to be moral. I grew up down the road from a father who used to regularly beat his sons... because he felt it was necessary to make them tough. In his eyes, he was acting out of a moral imperative. People don't generally simply do things they think are wrong; they find a way to rationalize them to fit their own moral code, thus removing the "wrongness".

I remember once reading a brilliant quote, "Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend."

I totally agree and very often say and do things along the lines of the quote you give, but having different morals is not at all the same as saying/thinking "morals aside" and acting by ignoring moral considerations...wouldn't you say?

-Ww

 

[Sudsy]

saying/thinking "morals aside" and acting by ignoring moral considerations...

I find that when people do this, they are rationalizing their actions and shoehorning them into their personal moral system somehow. They're aware that others may not approve, but they don't care, or if they do care, they care very little.

 

[Wwanderer]

In my experience when people say "morality aside", they often mean that they prefer not to discuss the issue (whatever it might be) from a moral perspective for one reason or another.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

Sometimes PUA sounds like (I'm sure someone will say it is not) the study techniques for getting into relationships with and/or the pants of attractive but unpleasant women of bad character.

If you want to believe that's what PUA is.. go ahead ^^

Seems like people in here are fond of telling me what PUA is without really knowing much about it in practice anyway..

In my experience when people say "morality aside", they often mean that they prefer not to discuss the issue (whatever it might be) from a moral perspective for one reason or another.

No, its another, different level of examination. We examined it morally - I totally sure of myself and that there is nothing morally reprehensible about what I'm doing. If you want to debate that, everyone is going to first have to roll back the random assumptions you make like "negging = insults" and "PUA = manipulation" before we can come to a meaningful debate about it. I was stepping out of the "moral" debate for a second to put on my pure utilitarian hat. Namely - from a purely scientific perspective, PUA WORKS and you have to explain that.. I think this is why people latch onto the "manipulation" storyline. It's easier to believe that it is manipulation than that guys can actually learn to get better with women. The second makes men who aren't working on themselves feel lazy, and women feel vulnerable that they might be attracted to guys who "work on something vague like PUA to get better with women." What they don't understand really, is that PUA is fundamentally about becoming a better man, NOT about getting a woman.

The way the conversation has been going is basically the same as if I said I am a Muslim and people started coming in and calling me a terrorist, woman-oppressor or heathen simply because of my religion. These are things which, yes the media wishes you to believe, and yes, may be true about a small subset of the population, but are in no way in general to the mass population of by and large peaceful, friendly Muslims.

In other words, yes there are terrorists within the Muslim community. For that matter there are people who use violence to promote ideology no matter what religion they are part of. Similarly, yes there are guys who study PUA and probably manipulate people. No, this is not all PUAs or even the majority. Is PUA morally reprehensible? I don't think so at all. Is it manipulation? Not the way I do it, or even the way most instructors I see teach it.

Are there manipulative guys? Yes, and for the most part these are the guys who are living in scarcity - NOT the PUAs. Generally speaking, the abusive, dark, evil men of the world need no PUA or learning to do their misdeeds. In fact, if they had a better way to connect with women (*cough, talking to them normally like PUAs are taught, cough*), they probably wouldn't feel the need to hit a woman. But they come from a deeply insecure and scarce mentality.

PUA, put simply, is "taking right action to meet women, reflecting on your own thoughts, words, and actions, and improving them where you can." That's it. No manipulation necessary (I think actually, it's quite hard to 'manipulate' women. They are a pretty savvy crew).

People have these massive pervasive misconceptions about PUA because of the current media paradigm that rewards extreme sensationalization, and a very simple mindset knee-jerk reaction like PUA = manipulation or "tricks" is much easier to hold than a more complex, accurate view, much in the same way that thinking "Muslim = terrorist" is simpler and easier, but fundamentally borne out of misunderstanding, not understanding. It's swallowing a media narrative that is just dramatically misrepresenting a large population as its seedier elements. We are in an era of digital lynching, and anyone who gets laid more than society thinks they should are the targets. God forbid we "manipulate" the poor, impressionable club girls who can't take care of themselves and need the added weight of society, media, and white knights around them to do it for them

 

[Sinapse]

What does this have to do with negging? You didn't neg the woman in your story. In fact, it sounds like you were a nice guy, if not a little overly so. Good approach!

Of course. My point is that women can be quite nasty from the outset, even if the guy is approaching "nicely".

Do, of course, keep in mind that a woman who doesn't quickly signal to a guy that she is not interested (though hopefully a little more politely than the example you gave) will be branded as leading the guy on, being a cocktease or even as putting him the friendzone.

I agree totally and I understand this. The "bitch" facade is just par for the course. So too, is the much-maligned "neg". Both of these work for the best interests of all parties and for the purpose of better connecting people on the same level. Insulting or manipulating a girl, on the other hand, is not, nor is it in anyone's best interest to do.

In reality, women should be cheering good pickup. It teaches men to improve themselves in every aspect of their life. This is good for men, and good for women who are constantly saying how "There's no good men anymore".

On programs - not usually bootcamps because it would be a little boring for the ladies, but in seminars, we delve deep into the psychology of men, women, and "the fan dance" -- with women present! The women we get on board are a wide variety of perspectives from hugely different backgrounds - last time we had a high-class kyabajo and a Japanese female CEO. We get them to come, share their perspectives, and observe. I've invited girlfriends and other girls I'm sleeping with in the past as well. They all enjoy it quite a bit and love giving their own perspective. By the end of the day, they are the ones who usually want to keep going long after everyone else is exhausted! @User#16452 I am so convinced of the innocence and honesty of what I teach, that if you'd like to come next time - no cost to you, of course - you're more than welcome to sit in and hear the "horrible manipulative techniques" we are teaching these guys. We'd love to hear your own perspective and experience as well! And I think you might be pleasantly surprised that what we teach is quite different from what you might be imagining. Anyway, no pressure to come or anything, just throwing it out there if you actually want to see what gets taught.

 

[Wwanderer]

People have these massive pervasive misconceptions about PUA because of the current media paradigm that rewards extreme sensationalization, and a very simple mindset knee-jerk reaction like PUA = manipulation or "tricks" is much easier to hold than a more complex, accurate view, much in the same way that thinking "Muslim = terrorist" is simpler and easier, but fundamentally borne out of misunderstanding, not understanding. It's swallowing a media narrative that is just dramatically misrepresenting a large population as its seedier elements.

I don't know if what you say is correct, but fwiiw, it does sound plausible to me. In areas where I do know the "ground truth" reality very well, it is certainly the case that the media gives a grossly inaccurate and sensationalized account to the public. It sells papers, so to speak.

So, for the sake of discussion at least, let's accept that there is nothing bad whatsoever about the "true PUA" as you practice and teach it. It is utterly blameless and irreproachable in reality and a boon to humankind regardless of gender.

This raises some interesting (to me, at least) demographic questions: What fraction of men who are open to meeting new women and dating them have done any significant reading or training or even just deep thinking on their own to improve their PUA skills? What fraction would consider themselves to be PUAs? What fraction of those are "true PUAs" according to your version of PUA? Etc. I know that you don't have any real numbers with which to answer these questions. Probably no one does. I'm just interested in hearing your rough estimates/guesses.

My own impression is these are quite small fractions. In other words, as far as I can judge only a small minority of men who are "on the market" have bothered to look into PUA material or training enough to significantly affect their behavior and that only a small fraction of such men think of themselves as PUAs....and a yet smaller fraction are doing "true PUA" by your standards. In the context of the current discussion of negging, my guesses are that most men have never tried it and that most of those who have tried it have done so in an incorrect (i.e., insulting) way in your view of the technique.

But I'd love to hear your guesses or @Solong's or anyone else's.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

@User#16452 I am so convinced of the innocence and honesty of what I teach, that if you'd like to come next time - no cost to you, of course - you're more than welcome to sit in and hear the "horrible manipulative techniques" we are teaching these guys. We'd love to hear your own perspective and experience as well! And I think you might be pleasantly surprised ...

I can't help thinking that if @User#16452 were to give you a free sample of what she sells, you would most certainly be well past "pleasantly surprised"!!

You can definitely trust me on that!

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

If you want to believe that's what PUA is.. go ahead ^^

Seems like people in here are fond of telling me what PUA is without really knowing much about it in practice anyway..



No, its another, different level of examination. We examined it morally - I totally sure of myself and that there is nothing morally reprehensible about what I'm doing. If you want to debate that, everyone is going to first have to roll back the random assumptions you make like "negging = insults" and "PUA = manipulation" before we can come to a meaningful debate about it. I was stepping out of the "moral" debate for a second to put on my pure utilitarian hat. Namely - from a purely scientific perspective, PUA WORKS and you have to explain that.. I think this is why people latch onto the "manipulation" storyline. It's easier to believe that it is manipulation than that guys can actually learn to get better with women. The second makes men who aren't working on themselves feel lazy, and women feel vulnerable that they might be attracted to guys who "work on something vague like PUA to get better with women." What they don't understand really, is that PUA is fundamentally about becoming a better man, NOT about getting a woman.

The way the conversation has been going is basically the same as if I said I am a Muslim and people started coming in and calling me a terrorist, woman-oppressor or heathen simply because of my religion. These are things which, yes the media wishes you to believe, and yes, may be true about a small subset of the population, but are in no way in general to the mass population of by and large peaceful, friendly Muslims.

In other words, yes there are terrorists within the Muslim community. For that matter there are people who use violence to promote ideology no matter what religion they are part of. Similarly, yes there are guys who study PUA and probably manipulate people. No, this is not all PUAs or even the majority. Is PUA morally reprehensible? I don't think so at all. Is it manipulation? Not the way I do it, or even the way most instructors I see teach it.

Are there manipulative guys? Yes, and for the most part these are the guys who are living in scarcity - NOT the PUAs. Generally speaking, the abusive, dark, evil men of the world need no PUA or learning to do their misdeeds. In fact, if they had a better way to connect with women (*cough, talking to them normally like PUAs are taught, cough*), they probably wouldn't feel the need to hit a woman. But they come from a deeply insecure and scarce mentality.

PUA, put simply, is "taking right action to meet women, reflecting on your own thoughts, words, and actions, and improving them where you can." That's it. No manipulation necessary (I think actually, it's quite hard to 'manipulate' women. They are a pretty savvy crew).

People have these massive pervasive misconceptions about PUA because of the current media paradigm that rewards extreme sensationalization, and a very simple mindset knee-jerk reaction like PUA = manipulation or "tricks" is much easier to hold than a more complex, accurate view, much in the same way that thinking "Muslim = terrorist" is simpler and easier, but fundamentally borne out of misunderstanding, not understanding. It's swallowing a media narrative that is just dramatically misrepresenting a large population as its seedier elements. We are in an era of digital lynching, and anyone who gets laid more than society thinks they should are the targets. God forbid we "manipulate" the poor, impressionable club girls who can't take care of themselves and need the added weight of society, media, and white knights around them to do it for them

GOD???? Why are you bringing fictional characters into this conversation? Is this easier to explain than say "Superman" or Star Wars characters?

 

[User#16452]

.

 

[Solong]

Seems like people in here are fond of telling me what PUA is without really knowing much about it in practice anyway..

The way the conversation has been going is basically the same as if I said I am a Muslim and people started coming in and calling me a terrorist, woman-oppressor or heathen simply because of my religion. These are things which, yes the media wishes you to believe, and yes, may be true about a small subset of the population, but are in no way in general to the mass population of by and large peaceful, friendly Muslims.

In other words, yes there are terrorists within the Muslim community. For that matter there are people who use violence to promote ideology no matter what religion they are part of. Similarly, yes there are guys who study PUA and probably manipulate people. No, this is not all PUAs or even the majority. Is PUA morally reprehensible? I don't think so at all. Is it manipulation? Not the way I do it, or even the way most instructors I see teach it.

Are there manipulative guys? Yes, and for the most part these are the guys who are living in scarcity - NOT the PUAs. Generally speaking, the abusive, dark, evil men of the world need no PUA or learning to do their misdeeds. In fact, if they had a better way to connect with women (*cough, talking to them normally like PUAs are taught, cough*), they probably wouldn't feel the need to hit a woman. But they come from a deeply insecure and scarce mentality.

Totally agree.

Sadly the point is likely to be missed. Sure to see Muslim religion = Terrorist, PUA = Manipulative Rapist or whatever bad label can be attached.

 

[Wwanderer]

Besides, I have seen several PUA seminars already, albeit recorded ones, as I used to be a member of a private PUA forum. In fact, the reason I got kicked off was for downloading too many seminars to watch!

Interesting.

Could you describe your impression of PUA from these recorded seminars in 2 or 3 sentences (or more if you wish, obviously)? In particular, did what you saw more-or-less confirm or contradict the media depiction of PUA as consisting largely of tricks/techniques to psychologically manipulate women?

-Ww

 

[Solong]

I find that when people do this, they are rationalizing their actions and shoehorning them into their personal moral system somehow. They're aware that others may not approve, but they don't care, or if they do care, they care very little.

I don't think this is true, and it appears you are adding in more than was stated.

"Morality aside" can simply mean to temporarily look at the logic, efficiency, or effectiveness of an action or to look at something hypothetically. It can also mean to suspend a debate on conflicting views about the morality of something, so the focus can return to the topic.

It doesn't necessarily mean to be unethical, immoral, or actually execute immoral and unethical actions.

 

[Sinapse]

What fraction of men who are open to meeting new women and dating them have done any significant reading or training or even just deep thinking on their own to improve their PUA skills? What fraction would consider themselves to be PUAs? What fraction of those are "true PUAs" according to your version of PUA?

Yeah honestly, no idea. I would say most young guys these days either casually know about PUA or have read some stuff online about it. For older guys - maybe not so much. As for "considering themselves PUAs" it's usually the newer guys or guys who want to prove something to themselves and the world that feel the need to label themselves like that. My version of "true PUA" (though I shy away from the actual phrase "PUA" because it seems kinda slimy) would include anyone who:

-consistently takes action towards talking to and meeting the women they like
-reflects on their action and tries to improve it
-studies/observes body language, conversation patterns, and social dynamics (how people act alone vs with friends, or with coworkers, in different arenas, etc)
-comes from a place of deep honesty and curiosity about the other sex

I suspect, @Wwanderer that you may be a "PUA" under my definition? Does that scare you?

Really, I'm not sure the % at all. All I know is the demographics that come through my door. There are a few specific "types" of guys who do it:

-Normal shy,friendly guys. These guys are basically totally normal, but not super social and have difficulty owning their space and masculinity, are afraid to approach based on fears that people are watching or that the girl won't like them, etc. These guys have normal friends and are really nice, but usually girls just pass them over because they're not aggressive or forward enough. Often, these guys just want a normal girlfriend.
-Successful career men. These guys are usually a bit more social (although sometimes they are just an older version of the normal shy guy), and have a successful career / business, often travel a lot and work out, have their own hobbies, etc, but just need some help in the women department. For these guys, after a bootcamp they can really take off. It's usually a few quick fixes and things they didn't notice they were doing.. show them the methods and the door and they blast right through it and get really successful really quickly where they had been banging their head against the wall before. My lawyer friend who went from not getting laid at all to 100 girls in a year his first year in the game fall into this category. These guys either want to rack up numbers then get a nice wife/girlfriend, or skip the numbers thing and just go for the endgame.
-"The robots". This is how a group of them have self-described, and I only use this label here for lack of a better word. These guys vary from aspergers' spectrum to emotionally flat, but they generally don't feel a lot of emotion and/or have difficulty reading facial expressions. With these guys we break down body language very very specifically and concretely, including how to read it and how to use it to convey what they want to convey. For example, they think they are smiling, but something is slightly off, or they can't understand exactly what emotion the girl is feeling.
-The frat / party boys. These guys sometimes come by and take a course and are usually in it to rack up huge numbers.
-The self-development junkie. These guys are addicted to reading everything under the sun related to self-development ranging from Dale Carnegie-type business stuff to Anthony Robbins and of course, PUA. They serially take programs and are always talking about theories and trying to better themselves in all areas.

I can't help thinking that if @User#16452 were to give you a free sample of what she sells, you would most certainly be well past "pleasantly surprised"!

I'm sure she's a lovely lady.

I've slept with quite a large number of women, but no matter how sexy or skillful, I've never found one I'd consider paying for.. mostly because I basically just don't think sex is worth money.. it's like creating art or dancing - something beautiful to be done for its own sake, not as a transaction.. but who knows

 

[Solong]

This raises some interesting (to me, at least) demographic questions: What fraction of men who are open to meeting new women and dating them have done any significant reading or training or even just deep thinking on their own to improve their PUA skills? What fraction would consider themselves to be PUAs? What fraction of those are "true PUAs" according to your version of PUA? Etc. I know that you don't have any real numbers with which to answer these questions. Probably no one does. I'm just interested in hearing your rough estimates/guesses.

But I'd love to hear your guesses or @Solong's or anyone else's.

-Ww

Even I don't officially label myself a PUA, as into the swinger lifestyle more. As you have been here a while, you may have noticed my initial focus here was primarily relative to swinging. But the label of PUA doesn't bother me, because I do know a lot about it. For me, it was more that the 2 lifestyles can intersect in terms of pick up, and I saw PUA as an effective tool on the seduction process. Just that here, it seems people are thrown into a box, and that's one in which I was pushed in for defending pick up/NP4P or not being pro-P4P enough. I tend to defend PUA, because many here had clearly not studied it or had no understanding of it, but were demonizing it or anything not "monger" enough. I also think guys should have options, and found it peculiar when some men here expressed that they feel as if they don't.

PUA is more of a tool that various guys use, with a lot them having read some material online. Lots of guys using PUA, but not taking on the official title of it. Guys would be all over the place in terms of level of study and expertise. I suspect there would be a significant age/generation gap too, and also relative to being comfortable with computers and how they use the Internet.

 

[Hamerare]

I don't know if it's just me, but I find this whole PUA stuff totally obnoxious and disrespectful to women. Unlike the exchange of provider info where even if the service was bad the girl is still referred to in human terms. PUA is all about treating women as a piece of ass for personal gratification then discarding. Millions of guys are able to find women without resorting to all these pseudo scientific methods.

I am pretty sure that the qualities needed to be a PUA are the same symptoms prevalent in the 10% of the male population with autism or personality disorders.

This PUA section is divisive and detracts from the forum as a whole. It is fanatical in the same way some religions and political movements are.

Solong, Espanish and their ilk needn't bother replying to this because I have their sorry handles blocked.