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[User#6326]

what a world we live in..

It is false advertising any which way you cut it

if I am paying for something I have a right to know what I am buying

her body is gorgeous but that face.. No way man

 

[DireWolf98]

Alice -- the youngest among us, and the wisest. If you find a woman attractive and enjoy her company, why does it matter if she used to have a dick? I have known some transsexuals. Most are not to my taste, but some can be amazingly sexy and attractive. Many exaggerate a feminine form that is not really to my taste, but I enjoyed their company. Those I knew were funny with a wicked sense of humour. Most of them - I believe - have been through hardships most of us can not imagine

I won't mock, criticize or discriminate against trans people.

However, I am a strong believer in Truth In Advertising. Such people need to be up front and honest about their situation. Deception is very uncool in my book.

 

[User#8628]

I won't mock, criticize or discriminate against trans people.

However, I am a strong believer in Truth In Advertising. Such people need to be up front and honest about their situation. Deception is very uncool in my book.

You get what you see.

 

[DireWolf98]

You get what you see.

Perhaps, but service providers should be honest and up front are such situations. There should be 100% truth in advertising.

Here in the US, numerous venues and independents falsely advertise as "Japanese." It's uncool and dishonest.

If Socrates were replying, he would reduce this to the absurd: "My friend bought a car that appeared to be safe, but he was killed when it's Takata airbag deployed."

 

[User#6326]

You get what you see.

absolutely no reason she cannot advertise as what she is

what we see is an advert saying woman
what you get is something quite different (from the point of view of the customer)

 

[User#8628]

absolutely no reason she cannot advertise as what she is

what we see is an advert saying woman
what you get is something quite different (from the point of view of the customer)

Does it anywhere say "woman"?

 

[Akanksha]

Does it anywhere say "woman"?

Actually, it said. "The most wanted young girl coming with a perfect package."

In the new ad, and I think is last one also.

 

[Akanksha]

I think she travel in pair with Meg.

http://tokyo.backpage.com/FemaleEscorts/sweet-tasty-delicious-100-real-and-updated-pictures/3283108

They have pictures in the same location.

"She seems born as a girl"

 

[Desktop]

Backpage has a section specifically for transsexuals. If the ad isn't there & the person seems to use Backpage a lot most would assume not in the transsexual section means not a transsexual.
Backpage has done their part.

 

[DireWolf98]

Does it anywhere say "woman"?

April 2 ad entitled: Independent Girl Escort Now In Tokyo.

From the postings I have read, you seem to be a nice and empathetic person. Most of your points seem reasonable.

However, in this case you adamant about defending someone who appears to be dishonest in their marketing.

 

[User#8628]

April 2 ad entitled: Independent Girl Escort Now In Tokyo.

From the postings I have read, you seem to be a nice and empathetic person. Most of your points seem reasonable.

However, in this case you adamant about defending someone who appears to be dishonest in their marketing.

Ok, but i imagine those people being in a difficult position.
As long as a "ladyboy" has both boobs and a dick, she's some kind of exciting sexual novelty and attracts clients with it. However, i think most of them would love to fully transition but then they lose their special appeal to clients and their job opportunity.
Just imagining the joy they'd feel after getting all their operations done and finally be fully "woman", only to lose their old clientele and appearantly not being allowed to advertice themselves as a girl...
Yea, i'd be bummed if that was me.

 

[DireWolf98]

Ok, but i imagine those people being in a difficult position.
As long as a "ladyboy" has both boobs and a dick, she's some kind of exciting sexual novelty and attracts clients with it. However, i think most of them would love to fully transition but then they lose their special appeal to clients and their job opportunity.
Just imagining the joy they'd feel after getting all their operations done and finally be fully "woman", only to lose their old clientele and appearantly not being allowed to advertice themselves as a girl...
Yea, i'd be bummed if that was me.

I won't criticize lifestyle choices, within reason. TS people have a right to the pursuit of happiness.

If an honest pre-op TS has clients that enjoys that type of service, that's the personal choice and tastes of those clients. Some people like The Grateful Dead and some people like The Allman Brothers. I won't vilify the provider or those clients. That's their personal choice.

However, if a TS undergoes the transformation, that TS should be honest. They should advertise as a TS. Their existing clients should be understanding and potential new clients won't be deceived.

Dishonesty could lead to backlash and even boycotts.

 

[Wwanderer]

The issue of post-op trans disclosure was discussed quite recently in this thread:

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads...erences-vs-sex-worker-personal-privacy.11107/

I gave my opinion in some detail in the first two posts there and won't repeat it here.

However, the basic point is that a provider is not, should not imo, be required to reveal any and all personal information to clients just because they are paying her for intimate services and care about it. What they should be entitled to is receiving what they pay for, i.e., intimate services. As @User#8628 expressed it well, "What you see is what you get." How it got that way is not the customer's business. This is a broader issue than just trans vs cis medical histories. See the list in my second post in the above referenced thread.

Suppose someone is born with a severe cleft palate that horribly deforms their face but manages to have it surgically repaired at great expense and with considerable pain and risk so that it ends up looking normal or close to it. Perhaps such a person should be required to reveal what their face looked like previously to anyone interested in their appearance? I don't think so.

-Ww

 

[John Chavers]

Suppose someone is born with a severe cleft palate that horribly deforms their face but manages to have it surgically repaired at great expense and with considerable pain and risk so that it ends up looking normal or close to it.

Comparing sex-reassignment elected surgery with a medical procedure that alters a child's life for the better?

 

[DireWolf98]

Comparing sex-reassignment elected surgery with a medical procedure that alters a child's life for the better?

@Wwanderer - I have to agree with @John Chavers in this situation. That is an apples-to-bowling balls comparison. A cleft palate is a severe quality of life issue.

Also, if a provider has had "work done" on her face, breasts or teeth, I wouldn't consider that a major issue. Disclosure wouldn't be necessary.

However, IMHO, a TS should advertise as a TS - especially if they advertise on Backpage.

 

[TheScientist]

However, i think most of them would love to fully transition

You get what you see.

Actually according to lots of what I've read including some of the medical literature, thats simply not the case. There are in fact a large percentage of these individuals who choose not to fully transition.

 

[Wwanderer]

Comparing sex-reassignment elected surgery with a medical procedure that alters a child's life for the better?

@Wwanderer - I have to agree with @John Chavers in this situation. That is an apples-to-bowling balls comparison. A cleft palate is a severe quality of life issue.

Actually there is massive evidence that elective sex-reassignment does radically improve the quality of life for a trans woman. For example, suicide rates and drug abuse problems drop dramatically after the surgical procedures are completed. I think you are vastly underestimating the psychological stress and despair that arises for someone who does not feel at home in their own body and who does not feel that (almost) anyone perceives or cares about their "real selves". For many/most trans women the conviction that there is "something wrong with their body" begins in early childhood, basically as soon as they begin to understand the physiological differences between women and men, and when they express this conflict to others, they are often treated as freaks and outcasts at best.

But in any case, I did not particularly mean my analogy to be a medical one or about the degree of suffering involved. Rather I meant it as an ethical one or as an issue of fundamental human rights. My point being that imo purchasing and hour or a few of physical intimacy with a sex worker should not require her to give up her right to personal privacy; in this case it should not require her to disclose, much less advertise, her medical history.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Also, if a provider has had "work done" on her face, breasts or teeth, I wouldn't consider that a major issue. Disclosure wouldn't be necessary.

However, IMHO, a TS should advertise as a TS - especially if they advertise on Backpage.

If I am following you here, you seem to be saying that she should disclose her trans status but does not have the same obligation to disclose other cosmetic surgeries because the former is much more important than the latter to you. But why should her rights to person privacy depend on how you feel about something?

Let me try another analogy. Should a provider have to disclose (in advance of even being contacted by a potential customer) her criminal record, if any? In my personal case, I'd really *hate* to patronize a sex worker who had been of convicted of criminal child abuse but wouldn't care if her crime were, say, drug use. (In both cases, I am assuming that she has served her time and moved on in her life.) So, should my feelings on the matter require her to disclose the former but not the latter? Why? Where do my feelings, which might or might not be shared by others, enter into determining her right to personal privacy?

-Ww

 

[TheScientist]

@Wwanderer I have no issue with your human condition points at all. However in this and other threads we've seen clearly that some people don't want to have a P4P experience with a pre or post-op transexual person and some have a genuine strong feeling against the idea to begin with. To me its about the same as how I absolutely can not deal with P4P with women who still look like teenage girls or women with obvious drug/mental problems. The thought of it just squicks me out completely.

 

[DireWolf98]

@Wwanderer - I understand and respect your points regarding rights to privacy.

I also appreciate the logic of your argument regarding my views about TS versus "work done."

However, I don't see myself as some lone crazy person screaming on a street corner. Backpage and various escort websites seem to believe that this issue is important enough to create a separate section for TS and/or TV providers.

 

[Wwanderer]

@DireWolf98 and @TheScientist - I likewise see and respect your points of view. I agree that many men have "genuine strong feelings" against the whole concept of trans women and I most certainly don't regard it as a view associated with " some lone crazy person screaming on a street corner". And we have been compadres in the online monger community (Asian Branch) far too long, @DireWolf98 , for me to imagine you as close minded, bigoted or irrational.

This is just to say, as I argued in this thread (which expressed it better than I am doing here):

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads...erences-vs-sex-worker-personal-privacy.11107/

there are real merits to both points of view imo...as there often are when important "rights" of different people come into conflict. In such situations, it is necessary for one group's rights to bend (or be lost in some cases) to accommodate the other group's. There is simply no satisfactory single solution that is good for all concerned. A choice must be made. I think that well-intentioned and rational people might disagree about where and how the trade-off is properly made.

My view is that the right to personal privacy of trans women should largely prevail over what seems to be a matter of taste or even squeamishness among many mongers. The former seems like a more fundamental and important human right to me. I would be interested to hear arguments to the contrary that were not simply along the lines of "It would make me happier and more comfortable".

But even more strongly I believe that it is completely unfair to put the WHOLE BURDEN on the privacy rights of the trans woman by considering it her obligated not only to reveal her medical history to her customers but in fact to broadcast it to the world by publicizing it in her ads and websites and such. If that is your solution, why do you feel that is fair for YOU TO GIVE NOTHING and HER TO GIVE ALL in the trade-off between her privacy rights and your sexual preferences/tastes?

Imo, the best available solution (not ideal or perfect) is that mongers for whom trans vs cis is a very important distinction, ones who are "squicked out completely", should make it THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to find out the critical information by asking the sex worker directly, before engaging in any sex or transfer of money. Is that really too much to ask? For her part, imo, the sex worker should then either tell the truth or refuse to answer the question. I don't see how she is failing to live up to her responsibility to her clients to be honest or to honor their personal sexual preferences if she does that.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I absolutely can not deal with P4P with women who still look like teenage girls or women with obvious drug/mental problems. The thought of it just squicks me out completely.

Imo the former is not a good analogy with post-op trans preferences. All of the providers you will ever see presumably once looked like and indeed were teenage girls; you care about what they are now...at the time you see them, not what they once were though. If you applied the same logic to trans women, you would not care that they once had a male physiology but only about their physiology now, when you are seeing them. Right?

The difference, I suppose, is that you believe that aging actually transforms an adolescent female into an adult one (and obviously that is true) but somehow you do not believe that gender re-assignment surgery entirely changes the physiology of a trans woman...or something like that which I don't really follow clearly.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Backpage and various escort websites seem to believe that this issue is important enough to create a separate section for TS and/or TV providers.

Imo there are a few reasons for this. An important one is that there are men who are specifically seeking TS or TV providers, and such sections help those mongers locate the appropriate providers. Indeed, some TS women list themselves in both the TS section and the general listings (using different street names) in order to access both groups of potential clients. But, of course, one of the reasons for these sections is that there are quite a lot of mongers who feel as you and @TheScientist feel about trans women, and such sections give them a sense of "safety" or "protection" from unintentionally seeing a trans sex worker.

I do not know if BP or escort listing websites ask or requite trans women to list themselves only in these specialized sections. Do you?

-Ww

 

[TheScientist]

Is that really too much to ask?

Well yes, I could ask this of every provider who I've engaged to bring me to climax but frankly this seems beyond ridiculous.

but somehow you do not believe that gender re-assignment surgery entirely changes the physiology of a trans woman...or something like that which I don't really follow clearly.

No, I don't see it that way. Its not a question of being repelled by youth, its a question of being uncomfortable with engaging in a sex act with a woman who looks that young, it makes me think of some really unpleasant things and unpleasant people who do those things. Its not a question of past vs present its very much a question of present state of being.

 

[Wwanderer]

Well yes, I could ask this of every provider who I've engaged to bring me to climax but frankly this seems beyond ridiculous.

Why? Why is it not ridiculous to consider a trans woman obligated to answer the question even when no one asks because some people want to know the answer?

-Ww