Is P4p Immoral?

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Solong said:
I don't get what makes you the MOST qualified person.
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really? I sense you do a real good Ray Charles impersonation.....
 
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just4fun said:
really? I sense you do a real good Ray Charles impersonation.....
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No, but my logic circuit works. If I was going to ask someone for advice on how to pickup women, among the last would be a prostitute. I would naturally be suspicious of a conflict of interest. Where she would tell me or suggest I just go spend all of my money buying women.

It's like going to a Catholic priest and asking advice on whether or not I should become an Atheist or Christian. Somehow I suspect more often than not he would be pro-Christian.
 
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Solong said:
It's like going to a Catholic priest and asking advice on whether or not I should become an Atheist or Christian. Somehow I suspect more often than not he would be pro-Christian.
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Closet gay remarks......and now a Catholic Priest......do they go together? :muted::muted::muted::muted:
 
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Someone has yet to intelligently answer why people seem totally okay with supporting an industry that is both illegal and highly exploitive of women. People seem comfortable with the possibility that they have had sex with a woman forced into selling her body against her will, and almost certainly are supporting organized crime.

Since prostitution is illegal, society does in fact think it is immoral so we're already starting the conversation from a "alternative" viewpoint. Anyone arguing that prostitution is moral is at odds with the entire society of Japan and many Western countries

Also.... In what world is a prostitute the "most qualified" to comment on the morality of prostitution? :rolleyes:
That's a good one! I take it people don't pay her for her humility :ROFLMAO:
 
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It really depends on how you look at it and from what angle. From my view, it's called Schlitz. After drinking Schlitz, my Peter wanted to be petered out. If it was easier to get laid by PUA, then so be it. If it meant dropping Benjamin's or Grant's then so be it. But at the the end of the week, I made my way to the confessional box, spilled my guts, said a few Hail Mary's and went on about my business. I am just gonna say it: Sin is sin. Pimping, whoring, and fornicating. If you are gonna do it be a HH, or a HF, or a CS or just a horny college kid. N
 
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We are talking about morality not ethics. One man's moral position doesn't match the other, but ethics trumps both. So even though Japan says it is illegal in the books, it is 80 percent accepted by society. Otherwise, it'd be hard to find any P4P in this country. Which I might add is heavily supplied by unambitious people who are forced to work for pimps who also were Unambitious. That said, promiscuous people come in many forms. Womanizer/monger same branch of the tree. The arguments are all moot. Western mongers and womanizers, pimps and traffickers are all the same. Conditions are the same. The game is just the same. Flakey is flakey, shady is shady. Promiscuities have no honorable sides and if you got game, you are gonna get laid. If you got money, you are gonna get laid. If you got both, you're a bimiscuous fool.
 
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My thing is, the subject is way more nuanced than I reckon has been expressed here so far. If exploitation is thrown into the mix, we all contradict ourselves by walking around with iPhones and Nike trainers. Also plain ol' porn is full of equally trafficked, forced and exploited women. It's probably easier to discern which prostitutes are in the game willingly than AV stars...

Just talking out my arse though, i got no way of proving anything I've said.
 
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Sinapse said:
Since prostitution is illegal, society does in fact think it is immoral so we're already starting the conversation from a "alternative" viewpoint. Anyone arguing that prostitution is moral is at odds with the entire society of Japan and many Western countries.

I guess you've never been to Germany......(have you heard of Germany??? just checking :D) Holland? In the USA Nevada? I guess those don't fall into what you consider moral societies......
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Erm, I said "many Western countries" not "all"
 
Sinapse said:
This still fundamentally assumes that men "get" and women "give." I reject this premise. Sex is not a transaction. Men and women share experience together.
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Yeah, the mindset that sex is something women have and give/men don't have and try to get is weak and will fuck you up before you've even started. In my experience most women don't want this kind of pressure either.
 
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Answer to the OP:

No. Plain and simple.

The Japanese have it right:

- Japanese wives know their husbands use p4p. (hello, pocket money?!)
- But they know that's where it stops, paid for play... as the name implies.
- Men don't (or shouldn't) get emotionally involved with their paid partners.

I only draw a line at the whole scene when someone dumps their family for their paid interest. (or, spending their life savings on a p4p service, which disrupts families... when they are the sole provider.)
 
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Yea
bruv said:
Yeah, the mindset that sex is something women have and give/men don't have and try to get is weak and will fuck you up before you've even started. In my experience most women don't want this kind of pressure either.
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Yeah, but women are good at using sex to get their own way or withholding as a punishment. Creates kinda imbalance

The smart dude moves on but don't so easy when it's ur missus

Yeah, a dude gotta change dat mindset. How do you do it?
 
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In my eyes it basically comes down to how you see yourself, and the world as it relates to you. You gotta know your worth. To yourself and to everybody else.

But tbh mate that's a whole topic of its own, I don't wanna derail this discussion
 
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Not everything in P4P is illegal in Japan most options are legal & opinions can't really be based in forced to work. If you look at Japanese keijibans you'll see them seeking out scouts. Drug use, pimps etc might be common in other parts of the world but not in Japan.
Why is this thread a comparison with P4P vs PUA?? The two are totally different. P4P vs just having a girlfriend in Japan is more of a suitable match.
In Tokyo we all have options in the past I just didn't feel like dealing with a relationship & realized I had options.
 
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Desktop said:
Why is this thread a comparison with P4P vs PUA?? The two are totally different.
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Yeah, seriously!

I have tired of pointing this out, but it is blindingly obvious I'd think.

Other than guys who see sex as the only reason to interact with a woman in any way, I don't see why anyone is confused about it.

-Ww
 
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Sinapse said:
Someone has yet to intelligently answer why people seem totally okay with supporting an industry that is both illegal and highly exploitive of women.
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Being illegal is not the same thing as being immoral. There's a lot of industries out there that are highly exploitative. Do you own a smart phone? Go on cruises? Stay in hotels?

People seem comfortable with the possibility that they have had sex with a woman forced into selling her body against her will
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I'd really like to see competent citations that most prostitutes, or even a large number of prostitutes in developed countries, are "forced into selling her body against her will". There's lots of anti-prostitution groups out there citing bullshit evidence and/or conflating studies to make statistics worse than they really is. My favorite is when anti-prostitution groups cite a study that they claim says that the average age that prostitutes start is 13 years old. What the study actually says is that the average age of underage prostitutes start is 13 years old. Which is still horrible, but isn't an indictment of prostitution as a whole.

The women that I've talked to about this do it because it's good money and because they are more or less in control of their own lives, and frankly for a lot of Asian girls there's not a whole lot of other options.

There ARE women out there that are sold into slavery for the purposes of prostitution, which is obviously horrific and needs to be prevented, and the people running such networks need to be put in a dark prison cell for the rest of their lives. But while just one woman being held against her will and raped is too many, this isn't an indictment of prostitution as a whole either.

and almost certainly are supporting organized crime.
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Yeah, very likely. But that's a function of prostitution being illegal, not a function of prostitution itself. Countries that have legalized or decriminalized prostitution are able to minimize this exploitation- women are able to come out from the shadows and not have to worry about being arrested, deported, or much worse. And criminalizing this behavior and using BS moralizing arguments that conflate sexual slavery with prostitution makes the problem worse, not better.

Since prostitution is illegal, society does in fact think it is immoral so we're already starting the conversation from a "alternative" viewpoint. Anyone arguing that prostitution is moral is at odds with the entire society of Japan and many Western countries
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I have news for you: Prostitution and PUA are in the same boat when you talk to the rest of society in Japan and many Western countries. The core of the moral argument is that sex is sacred and shouldn't be engaged in lightly. Society sometimes actually conflates the promiscuous with the prostitute, calling women that engage in sex outside of marriage or other promiscuity 'whores'. You can argue all you want about how 'special' sex is to you, but someone that joyously posts trip reports about having sex twice a day for 3 days with different women is obviously taking sex a lot more lightly than the mainstream would expect.

I'm by no means badmouthing PUA, or even saying that I feel prostitution is entirely moral. I'm just trying to make sure that the record is correct, because there's been a lot of misconceptions and incorrect data about prostitution in this thread and elsewhere. There's a lot of immorality we overlook or maybe tolerate to get what we want in society - we could all pay a little more for products and services to further reduce economic inequality, or could push for social change that gives women more choices in life. When it comes to sex, I draw the line at consent. Moral or not, I'm fairly comfortable with that, and that the orgs I've visited aren't forcing women into doing things they don't want to do.
 
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meiji said:
Being illegal is not the same thing as being immoral. ...
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Thank you, @meiji !

@Sinapse's post about exploitation and abuse of women in p4p poses an important question for all mongers and articulates it very well, imo....while possibly exaggerating its prevalence quite a bit. I have been trying to find some time to write an adequate response, but @mieji 's post I quote says the majority of what mine would have said, and I agree with every single word of it. So, I'll not repeat it in my own words.

What I will do when I get a chance is post about some of the ways which I personally deal with the issue and try to make sure that I'm not contributing to the immoral aspects of p4p.

I'd like this one at least 20 times...just for the time it saves me...and another 20 for what it says, if I could.

-Ww
 
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just4fun said:
If you sleep in school......there's very limited choices you have in life.......
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Well, now we're getting to the heart of the topic. Sleep in school = why should I bother to better myself or learn anything when my friend can get me a job at the kyaba or delivery health? All those late nights and drinking will mess up my health, but so what?

meiji said:
The women that I've talked to about this do it because it's good money and because they are more or less in control of their own lives, and frankly for a lot of Asian girls there's not a whole lot of other options.
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You supporting the system by dumping money into it = system doesn't change. You're free to support it. Doesn't make it moral.

Take a look at that last part that I put in bold. How are they in control of their own lives if they don't have other options? Total contradiction there.

TAG Manager said:
Answer to the OP:
The Japanese have it right:

- Japanese wives know their husbands use p4p. (hello, pocket money?!)
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Yup...and we can see the results of this way of thinking in Japan today. People treating marriages as purely business arrangements: increased divorce rates, depressed populace and declining birth rate. Doesn't sound too healthy to me!

Wwanderer said:
Btw, I very much hope that this thread will stay away from debating p4p vs PUA/nampa/gaming/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Doing so is illogical and distracting.
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Actually it's pretty logical. Game is just the idea that you can have any kind of relationship with women that you want, for free. This includes both fast sex and long-term relationships. With game you can get everything you would get in p4p, except without paying for it and without supporting often exploitative industries.

User#16452 said:
There are also lots of gay undertones, which I suspect is not this guy's thing either.
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Haha, but seriously, why would enjoying a book with gay undertones conflict with gaming women? For someone who's apparently read the book, this is a pretty simplistic view. What if I were bisexual? (I'm not, but nothing I said would have ruled that out). Someone else made some vaguely homophobic comments after yours...sorry to disappoint, but homosexuality doesn't make me uncomfortable, neither do I view it negatively, and I wouldn't use "gay" pejoratively. That seems like something that people who are actually insecure about their sexuality would do. Such as, you know, people who think they need to pay for sex. ;)

Anyway, I still haven't seen a good moral, ethical or even really practical defense of p4p in here, other than "shit is convenient." Which...okay, but yeah, let's take this deeper! Also would like to hear more from User#16452 as she's offering the only female perspective in here so far. That doesn't make her more or less qualified, but her opinion still has value.
 
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Dorian Gray said:
Yup...and we can see the results of this way of thinking in Japan today. People treating marriages as purely business arrangements: increased divorce rates, depressed populace and declining birth rate. Doesn't sound too healthy to me!
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You think too much.

None of this really has to do with p4p --- did you happen to notice a lot of the recent surveys (in Japanese) about women and men who aren't interested in marriage, regardless? ....not related to p4p. Depressed poplace? victim of their own stringent culture, not related to p4p. Divorce rates -- this is a mixed bag. Women are becoming more independent and are looking for better lives.

Marriage is Japan isn't so much about love nor is it religious, despite some appearances. It's about stability, which is what the majority have... not everyone is this country is getting divorced nor are they depressed.
 
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meiji said:
What the study actually says is that the average age of underage prostitutes start is 13 years old. Which is still horrible, but isn't an indictment of prostitution as a whole.
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meiji said:
criminalizing this behavior and using BS moralizing arguments that conflate sexual slavery with prostitution makes the problem worse, not better.
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I'm not sure which studies you are talking about. It does seem that Japan is definitely far higher than most other developed countries in terms of human trafficking - being the only G8 country in Tier 2 of the State Department (which includes Russia.. not exactly an upstanding global citizen). I'm not sure why you object to sexual slavery / human trafficking being mentioned alongside prostitution.. are there more common destinations for trafficked women? It seems connected to me.

meiji said:
the orgs I've visited aren't forcing women into doing things they don't want to do.
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You cannot possibly know this for a fact. Look, I'm sure the vast majority of p4p is consensual and something the woman chooses to do. BUT that doesn't mean that you haven't unwittingly been to a "provider" or whatever euphemism you guys like to use that has, at least initially, been forced into prostitution. Keep in mind that she probably would only really be noticeably uncomfortable or against it the first few times. After she realizes she can't escape her fate she'd probably be indistinguishable from any other prostitute merely by the fact that she's given up. My point is the same as @Wwanderer makes in another thread:

Wwanderer said:
the main point I'd like to add to this discussion and the arguments others have made is that an extremely low error rate is still an intolerable one.
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Wwanderer said:
I't not saying that such a situation and outcome is at all common; surely it is quite rare. But for me personally, I'd rather make damn sure it never happens even once
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Wwanderer said:
My point is that it doesn't matter how rare it is. If it happens even once when a guy could have avoided it, that's one time waaaaay too many imo.
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My question to you guys is are you "making damn sure" that you never support a situation where a woman is being exploited? Or are you just looking at them and choosing to believe that they want to be there. In other words:

Wwanderer said:
My hunch is that many guys don't want to consider the type of possibility I point out because it is inconvenient and interferes with their goal of getting into the panties of as many attractive women as possible...but please explain to me how/why I'm wrong if you disagree.
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I guess my ULTIMATE issue is that it seems a lot of people on this board are HYPER critical of gaming while not really being critical of themselves and their own support of the p4p industry. Those direct quotes from Wwanderer (probably the most considerate and well-thought out p4p poster who comes over to the PUA threads) highlight this double standard.

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meiji said:
The core of the moral argument is that sex is sacred and shouldn't be engaged in lightly.
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I agree this is the issue. In reality, my issue is not at all with the legality of it (I don't particularly care if something illegal or not, but rather if it is "right" or not), nor with the issue of liberty (I think consenting adults should be able to exchange money for whatever they wish). Actually, I don't have a problem with prostitution existing in this world at all, nor will I make any effort to fight against it (it would be nice if it was legal).

My issue is that I think it's a tragedy that some men think they can't get enough sex and so they feel they have to pay for it. I think it's a shame that many modern men are unaware of how to communicate with women in an attractive way and shoot FAR FAR below the level they can actually get. Too often I see guys get into relationships and marriages out of fear and scarcity of sex rather than out of supreme love for their partner. In short, the scarcity of sex is my main opponent.

If you are married, have a lot of money, and/or don't really like talking to women or getting to know them in prefer to insert as fast as possible.. I think prostitution is the right choice for you! If that isn't you and you believe that you are so unattractive that you can't get a girlfriend the normal way, I think prostitution is selling you a lie - namely, the habit of paying for sex is degrading your own power as a man and placing women fundamentally above you. The edge of feminism cuts both ways - women are equal to men, no less AND no more. I would challenge that ANY man can have sex with tons of women - for free and in whatever manner he wishes.

As Voltaire said, "Donnez-moi une minute pour faire oublier mon visage grâce à ma conversation, et je pourrai séduire la reine de France"
or, "Give me a minute to talk away my ugly face, and I'll bed the Queen of France"
 
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Before we go too far down an only marginally relevant tangent, imo we should keep in mind that commercial sex between consenting adults cannot be considered immoral because commercial sex sometimes occurs without the consent of one of the people (the woman in the case of non-consensual heterosexual commercial sex). In other words it is not the selling of sex per se that is immoral; it is mistreating and exploiting women to coerce them to sell sex that is immoral.

To confuse the two would be like saying family life is immoral because there is horrible domestic violence in some (many, sadly) families. It is the domestic violence that is immoral, not the family life with which it is associated.

In other words, perhaps the right answer (or one with which more of us would agree) is that mutually consensual p4p is moral, and non-consensual p4p is immoral. Most people would probably agree that non-consensual sex of any kind is immoral, p4p or np4p or whatever, so the second statement in the previous sentence is obvious. The only part of the OP question that seems worth debate is the first statement in that sentence, the one about consensual p4p.

That said, it is surely incumbent on mongers to at least think about the non-consensual sex that occurs within the p4p world and to decide for themselves how they will deal with it. I'll talk about that in a following post.

-Ww
 
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meiji said:
There's a lot of industries out there that are highly exploitative. Do you own a smart phone? Go on cruises? Stay in hotels?
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Let's be a bit more specific and stark: Do you like and eat chocolate? See http://www.foodispower.org/slavery-chocolate/

Now first, let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the abuse and exploitation of women in p4p is OK or can be ignored because people, often even children, are abused and exploited in other commercial activities. Something that is wrong does not become right because other things are wrong, even if there are a lot of them or even if they are worse...a type of argument that @Sinapse appeared to be making a couple of times in the "does approaching women bother them?" thread, but maybe wasn't.

What I am saying is that we all need to deal with problems of this type routinely in our daily lives, and I can see no reason that anyone is morally obligated to react to these immoral aspects of p4p in any different way than they do with similar immoral aspects of other commercial activity, like buying chocolate candy for example.

Moreover it isn't clear to me that mongers are any more obligated to work against the exploitation and abuse of women in the commercial sex industry than non-mongers. Do those who buy and eat chocolate have a greater obligation to fight against the child slavery and exploitation in that industry than people who don't consume chocolate? In the face of such vast wrongs, it seems to me that we are all obligated to do what (little) we can.

So, what can one do to oppose the abuse and exploitation of women in the commercial sex industry? The single most effective and important approach, imo, is to support and advocate the legalization of prostitution. It is precisely because so many people *feel* that it is wrong for consenting adults to sell sex that it is illegal, and it is precisely its illegality that encourages the involvement of criminal elements in the industry and allows their abuses to remain semi-hidden and hard to suppress legally.

For example, if a monger encounters a sex worker who appears to be coerced and abused, why can he not report the situation to the police? The answer is largely because he has committed a crime in paying for sex and so has a strong motivation to avoid the involvement of law enforcement? And why is paying for sex illegal...because a lot of people agree with @Dorian Gray and @Sinapse et al. and *feel* that sex is not a commodity and wish to impose their *feelings* on others by confusing their *feelings* with absolute morality, i.e., morality that should apply to everyone and be enforced by legal means.

This is not theory. As someone who has had plenty of commercial sex experiences in countries where it is legal (Australia, Germany...), I can assure you that legalization makes a huge difference. That said, it definitely does not solve the problem, far from it sadly, but it helps...a lot. Eating chocolate is legal, as are the things @meiji mentions in the quote above, and the abuses still exist, but there would be much less chance of doing anything about them...of even knowing about them if consuming chocolate became a crime.

Bottom line: Monger and non-monger alike should push hard for legalization of all consensual sex work. Period.

There is more that mongers can do by virtue of their participation in p4p, but this post is already too long. I'll leave that topic for another post.

-Ww
 
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If p4p wasn't immoral, why won't p4p users talk freely about it in public, why is it hidden activity, almost shame activity?

To me p4p is immoral to an extent that I judge it ethically acceptable (for example pedophilia is immoral to an extent I cannot accept), and because I find it immoral it excites me.

I can as well pua, it excites me too, in a different way.

To me it's like tea and coffee, some day I'd feel like coffee some other day I'd prefer a tea.
 
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