Is P4p Immoral?

[john.smith]

When you were talking about the social consequence of eating chocolate, it made me think of this video :

 

[Sinapse]

When you were talking about the social consequence of eating chocolate, it made me think of this video :

I kept thinking about this

 

[Wwanderer]

I wanted the thread re-opened in large part because I was going to post a bit about the ways that I think one can fairly effectively (much more effectively and easily than with chocolate bars at least) avoid patronizing abused and/or coerced sex workers. However, after a bit of reflection, I think such a post (and related discussions) should have their own thread rather than being "hidden" in this one. Basically I imagine that whether one thinks consensual p4p is moral or immoral, we would probably all agree that any guy doing p4p should try to avoid non-consensual p4p if at all possible. So, it is really a separate issue.

I'll make such a thread presently.

-Ww

 

[hkAlone]

I wanted the thread re-opened in large part because I was going to post a bit about the ways that I think one can fairly effectively (much more effectively and easily than with chocolate bars at least) avoid patronizing abused and/or coerced sex workers. However, after a bit of reflection, I think such a post (and related discussions) should have their own thread rather than being "hidden" in this one. Basically I imagine that whether one thinks consensual p4p is moral or immoral, we would probably all agree that any guy doing p4p should try to avoid non-consensual p4p if at all possible. So, it is really a separate issue.

I'll make such a thread presently.

-Ww

This debate could actually be quite interesting if it doesn't sound like "PUA strike back" kind.
We should almost have a moral sub section... Yes yes I'm very serious.

I am not talking about the moral inspired from isolated tribes of bronze age or early middle age (I think this is called religious moral) but the actual questioning about the positive or negative impact in our societies.

As P4P is concerned, basic legitimate questions could be ...

Is the girl coerced by another person ?
Is she doing this activity under a strong drug addiction ?
Will I finance organized crime by paying her or her agency ?
Does the activity could imply some psychological damages ?
Is the provider under any kind of mental distress?

Unfortunately the answer to these questions are not always no. I guess a code of conduct from a client perspective could help making sure he is not disturbing the social order. At least the client would feel much better if he knows for sure what he is doing is moral on a social perspective.

On the other side, with PUA, you could consider such code of conduct.
Moral questions could include :
What is the limit between seduction and deception?
When are we pushing too much?
When is physical pressure too high?
Should I back off in case of resistance?
I have seen many cases, where guys were pretending to be relocated soon to Japan, as they knew this would really trigger a positive chain if reactions from their target. Also, what about talking about potential long term relationship when you're going to f... another girl the day after.

I don't want to answer any question here.

 

[John Chavers]

I kept thinking about this

That's exactly the quality of woman I suspect you and the rest of TeamPUA pull and then brag about.

 

[Sinapse]

 

[User#8628]

This is Tokyo ADULT Guide.
There is a reason that its adults only, its all a little impure. So lets not go call each other immoral here. The title of this topic sounds quite insulting to the escorts on this site.

Personally i hate PUA. Yes, some of my relationships started that way. Yes, it can definitely work. But in most cases it doesn't work. Its so awkward if a guy who is not your type goes up to you with a cheesy line and you have to turn him down. Especially on the street. Like, i'm most likely on my way to an appointment and busy.
How would you feel if a woman who is unattractive to you would talk when you are on your way to work and you have to turn them down? A little awkward, huh? And what if you are in a relationship but some totally random girl keeps trying to flirt? Not even mentioning catcalling, every comment on my body is gonna get ignored, even if a hottie makes it. Dont come with "you're asking for it with those clothes", i'm not gonna be angry at you for enjoying the view but nobody asked for your unwanted comment.
And there was a whole forum about this pick up artist being "another white idiot". This guy wrote about "ways to ask a girl out that a japanese girl cant say no to" so that is obviously not ok (japanese people are bad at directly turning others down and he is taking advantage).

Anyway, back to the topic.
I've been thinking about this a lot and in an ideal world there'd probably be completely legal p4p, completely govenment controlled so no forced p4p and prices are low, kind of like a regular massage or therapist session. Girls dont have to retire young and you dont get to choose your girl, so you could get hooked up with some 65 years old or something. Alternatively there could be "private clinics" with only hot girls for very high prices not govenment controlled. Also there wouldn't be a social judgement on sex workers. It would be a service like hospital or therapist.

Nothing like that is gonna happen anytime soon i think.
We live in a flawed world, accept it.

 

[john.smith]

I've been thinking about this a lot and in an ideal world there'd probably be completely legal p4p, completely govenment controlled so no forced p4p and prices are low, kind of like a regular massage or therapist session. Girls dont have to retire young and you dont get to choose your girl, so you could get hooked up with some 65 years old or something. Alternatively there could be "private clinics" with only hot girls for very high prices not govenment controlled. Also there wouldn't be a social judgement on sex workers. It would be a service like hospital or therapist.

It is quite interesting that you are thinking that an ideal world is about a government imposing a price on the services you want to provide.
And also interesting that you consider a government a moral autority which is the one who can make sex "pure".
I also don't get the idea why you think that a customer should not have the choice of which girl he prefers and this should be set by government decree or randomness.
I am quite horrified that you think about such solution.

This would only restrict the number of customers interested into P4P, and penalize the best girls since they would not get more money for being different than others. And would not even fix the problem of exploitation.

Embrassing diversity and the ability to choose is the most important thing in a free world.

 

[User#8628]

Why i'd think the girl should be randomly set up with a guy?
Because now prostitutes have to retire at a young age because it gets more and more difficult when you get old to find customers and your price get lower to a point that you cant live off it.
This way sex workers could have set prices that are low because it'd be a secure job that you can continue your whole life so you don't have to worry about that. It seems the only way sex work can be treated like a normal job.
No "easy money", no mafia involved and no social judgement.

You must be an American holding me for a communist or something.
Well, i think communism obviously doesn't work, because people are not always fair to each other and are selfish to some extend but the ideal of communism IS a perfect world, which cant be realized and i'd never wish to try it again so no i'm not some communist supporter, but i'm also not afraid of putting health and mental healthcare in the hands of the government because thats what we do outside of america. And sex work is healing for the body and soul in many ways.

 

[User#8628]

Basically i do want to do the job that i love most for the rest of my life without social judgement or losing all customers when getting too old, so yes that would be perfect. Idealistically speaking, not pefect in the sense that i think we should actively trying to realizing it.

 

[john.smith]

My point is that if the problem you want to fix is making it possible for an unattractive woman to compete with attractive one, the only way to do it is by forcing a choice on the customer.
Basically, if such thing would be enforced, now, not only the customer would not have what he wants, but you would be the one paying for it, since you are obviously at the top of the escort scale.

Your example is not different from the IT world where young graduate are favored against old dinosaurs, because the technology evolves so fast.
I can't help thinking how awful would it be if companies were forced to employ someone not qualified to the job just to fill some "equality quota". It would be a disservice not only for the company, but as well for the unwanted dude filling a spot where he does not fit.

Mafia only happen when a trade is forbidden by a government. As soon as it becomes legal, then there is no point, as a customer, into risking the black market where he has significant risk to be ripped off, catch STI, and encouraging exploitation.
For the social judgement, I am not an escort, so I can't feel what you mean, but to my opinion, people who has social judgement on your trade are not worth speaking to.

Also for easy money, why do you consider it so bad? It can be bad for girls not morally ready to be an escort might regret later their action, this can put them in deep depression as they violate their core values and beliefs.
But should such girl impose, by government decree, to the rest of the sex worker industry which price is right for everyone ?

How would you really take it if tomorrow the government says your pricing is too high, when people in this forum would be ready to pay you for that, and you would be ready to accept ?

Alice, you surely are an incredible escort, by your words I think that you are feeling guilty about getting paid above the average escort. You should not be.

Basically i do want to do the job that i love most for the rest of my life

That's the most beautiful thing which can happen in a professional life, and the root of outstanding skills. I have no doubt you will keep having customer until your 40 and even after.
When you'll be older maybe you won't be able to keep doing escort but may still be able working in the sex industry and still love it.

It is similar in IT, where you start working on the technology, but as you get older and younger people knows about newer technology, you evolve into managerial role. Not all so bad, just an evolution because life is not static. Trying to make it static when it is not is the root to tyranny.

 

[NormalGuy]

I think I'd rather stay at home and have a wank, rather than go to a clinic and pay some random old woman who I didn't find attractive do it for me.

One of the things I hope, and keeping this on topic, is that the women that choose to do this are intelligent ladies that will make a lot of money early on in their lives and invest it wisely for the future. Surely nobody can deny that the good looking, well skilled, reliable independents have very good earning potential, so when the time comes that they want to get out they can use their education and investments to secure a nice life. With the working hours, rate of pay, self employed aspects of it, staying in education, starting another business or even having a career should be possible (but that's only imho, as I don't know too much about your lives).

 

[User#8628]

You guys have good point for sure.
Well spoken.

 

[User#8628]

This whole threat feels pretty hurtful for escorts.
It's seriously questioning if our job is immoral. Imagine people making a topic like "is IT immoral?" "Are people using products of IT immoral because technology is making us anti social and its a tool for stalking and blablabla"

Even if it's more an attack to the customers if its immoral or not, it hits home for the escorts because it's a big part of our life.

 

[john.smith]

Well, this topic about immorality of P4P should not be seen as an attack against prostitution, this is poorly worded I think.
The question should be: from where comes the value system which make P4P immoral in some people's mind.

I would say this is because of christian roots in western culture, without lots of conviction though.
This would explain why eastern countries are more open than western one about sex. But I may be wrong on this, @Wwanderer can surely tell.
Some says it is because of exploitation. This may be true, but is not limited to sex, in a socialist country "work" is seen as exploitation of man by man instead of a cooperative activity involving free individuals.

I was raised with by thinking P4P was immoral, I think this view came mainly from movies and the idealisation of romance you see in it.
My view about immorality of P4P changed dramatically when I adopted another set of value which came from some philosophers I read.

Now I think P4P is the one of the purest form of free cooperation between individuals, and any attempt to prevent it, I see it as a violation of the right of a woman to use her body as she sees fit.

 

[injp]

I have a theory that the vast prostitution market in Japan is a form of social welfare/wealth distribution. And some government bearucrats believe they are being altruistic (as opposed to immoral) by allowing so much prostitution in society. You hear of many stories of housewives turning to p4p to help supplement the families income. I had a friend that did this. She often complained that japanese was a very difficult country to live in if you were poor because of all the taxes, fees, expensive school backpacks etc. One year her family did not have enough money to pay the car inspection fees for her family's older car. So she made some money meeting men on dating/deai sites. She says she hasn't done it in a while, but she has that option to fall back on.

I have a deeper conspiracy theory that male government bearucrats intentionally keep the cost of living high to keep a large supply of p4p options in society to service their needs.

 

[DocMcStuffins]

If the cost of living was too high wouldn't there be a lack of clients?

 

[injp]

That's a good point. But there a multiple income levels, and men earn more than women. A salaryman will be able to survive but if you are not on that track you can struggle. I guess it is the same as other countries, but my poor Japanese friend complains about it a lot.

 

[Wwanderer]

The title of this topic sounds quite insulting to the escorts on this site.

This whole threat feels pretty hurtful for escorts.
It's seriously questioning if our job is immoral.

@Sinapse started (and named) this thread but should not be blamed for its existence. I am the one who repeatedly said that we needed a thread on the topic. My reason was that debates on the morality of p4p kept breaking out in threads about PUA/nampa/gaming when its/their proponents would call p4p immoral as a way, an illogical/incoherent way to be sure, of defending their activities from criticism by mongers. Basically they were trying to deflect the discussion to other topics as far as I can see.

Anyway, TAG is a board largely devoted to commercial sex, and it seems to me that it is the right place to discuss its morality if there is one.

That said, I apologize to you and any other escorts offended by the very existence of the thread. I can well understand that the content of some of the posts (and far worse ones in other threads) are offensive/hurtful to you, but obviously you know far better than me or any monger how much of the world feels about what you do.

And, of course, you know exactly how I feel about these issues, @User#8628. I think (consensual) sex workers are exactly the opposite of immoral; to me they are brave, heroic even, noble, admirable and self-sacrificing in many ways. Their closest analogy among other professions imo are health care providers, people who also provide extremely personal and important services to whomever needs them and are paid for doing so. How is that so different from what sex workers do? This thread is a place for views such as mine (admittedly very unusual) to engage those who regard consenting adults exchanging money for sexual activities/services in private to be a moral wrong for reasons no one has yet explained in this thread as far as I can see. (There have been some arguments that it is not as good as other ways of having sex or is not a wise thing to do, but that is very far from making it immoral surely.)

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Personally i hate PUA. Yes, some of my relationships started that way. Yes, it can definitely work. But in most cases it doesn't work. Its so awkward if a guy who is not your type goes up to you with a cheesy line and you have to turn him down. Especially on the street. Like, i'm most likely on my way to an appointment and busy.
How would you feel if a woman who is unattractive to you would talk when you are on your way to work and you have to turn them down? A little awkward, huh? And what if you are in a relationship but some totally random girl keeps trying to flirt? Not even mentioning catcalling, every comment on my body is gonna get ignored, even if a hottie makes it. Dont come with "you're asking for it with those clothes", i'm not gonna be angry at you for enjoying the view but nobody asked for your unwanted comment.

@Solong , @Dorian Gray , @Sinapse and all other cold-PUA advocates, I hope you will read the above at least twice and think about it honestly. I know @User#8628 quite well, and I can assure you that if there are more sex-positive, open-minded, adventurous and just plain old fun women out there, I have never met any of them. Moreover and as she states, she has had relationships start via PUA/nampa/gaming, so it is not like she is hysterically sensitive to being approached by a stranger in some crazy way. Yet she still says that she hates it and gives a clear explanation of why it bothers her so much. You should pay attention to this post imo.

And fwiiw, @User#8628 is not the only woman I have heard express this reaction to cold-PUA or whatever you want to call what you do.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I've been thinking about this a lot and in an ideal world there'd probably be completely legal p4p, completely govenment controlled so no forced p4p and prices are low, kind of like a regular massage or therapist session. Girls dont have to retire young and you dont get to choose your girl, so you could get hooked up with some 65 years old or something. Alternatively there could be "private clinics" with only hot girls for very high prices not govenment controlled. Also there wouldn't be a social judgement on sex workers. It would be a service like hospital or therapist.

I do not want to put my words in @User#8628 's mouth (maybe other things though ), but if I am reading her correctly, I think she is making a parallel to the way medical care and even basic commodities like food and housing are handled in many Western European social democracy type countries. She is suggesting (I think) that in an ideal world everyone should be able to have a sexual partner in some way and that those who cannot find or provide one for themselves would be "taken care of" by the government...perhaps not in a high quality way but at some basic minimal level of human rights way.

The important bit that seems to have been mostly ignored in the discussion of her idea above is the one in the quote that I made bold, namely that this government provided minimal sexual services system would not replace much higher quality options for those who could afford them. This again follows the pattern of how the Western European democracies deal with medical care, food, housing etc. For example, the fact that basic food is provided to those who would otherwise be going hungry does not mean that posh and excellent restaurants are not also available to those who can afford them.

Imo, this is a wildly radical, creative and perhaps impractical idea...but definitely an interesting notion. And obviously she is right that

Nothing like that is gonna happen anytime soon i think.
We live in a flawed world

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

The important bit that seems to have been mostly ignored in the discussion of her idea above is the one that I made bold, namely that this government provided minimal sexual services system would not replace much higher quality options for those who could afford them. This again follows the pattern of how the Western European democracies deal with medical care, food, housing etc. For example, the fact that basic food is provided to those who would otherwise be going hungry does not mean that posh and excellent restaurants are not also available to those who can afford them.

@john.smith - Am I right to think that what I wrote above would answer most of the "free market" type concerns you raised in your posts above? In other words, do you agree that the benefits of free markets and the rights of consumers to make choices will still occur even if the govt guarantees some minimal "social safety net" level of the most basic necessities of life? (Whether or not commercial sex services should be regarded as such is another question of course.)

-Ww

 

[Midlife Crisis]

@User#8628 @Wwanderer Yes, the idea that sex is a basic need similar to healthcare, welfare, education, etc. is not a rare idea in the EU where there is a long history of egalitarian thinking. I think most people can understand that if we strip 'sex' down to its most basic (at least for humans), removed from porn, culture, advertising, etc., it is a fundamental human need for most people.

However, this idea is very difficult/impossible for many Americans to understand/accept for a lot if historical, cultural, and religious reasons. Of course, the great irony here is that the 'sex industry ', in dollar terms, is by far the largest in the US. In other words, even if many Americans disagree that sex is a basic need, this great need is nevertheless being served at huge private profit by a wide variety of corporations and organized crime.

 

[Wwanderer]

Yes, the idea that sex is a basic need similar to healthcare, welfare, education, etc. is not a rare idea in the EU where there is a long history of egalitarian thinking.

However, this idea is very difficult/impossible for many Americans to understand/accept for a lot if historical, cultural, and religious reasons.

An off-topic aside (sorry, admins!): It is so puzzling to me that American culture is directly derived from Western European culture to a very large degree but has ended up so different from it. I think you guys cheated and sent us the more than our fair share of idiots, assholes and fanatics during the many historical waves of European immigration! If you had any decency you'd take at least half of them back from us!

-Ww

 

[bruv]

@Solong , @Dorian Gray , @Sinapse and all other cold-PUA advocates, I hope you will read the above at least twice and think about it honestly. I know @User#8628 quite well, and I can assure you that if there are more sex-positive, open-minded, adventurous and just plain old fun women out there, I have never met any of them. Moreover and as she states, she has had relationships start via PUA/nampa/gaming, so it is not like she is hysterically sensitive to being approached by a stranger in some crazy way. Yet she still says that she hates it and gives a clear explanation of why it bothers her so much. You should pay attention to this post imo.

And fwiiw, @User#8628 is not the only woman I have heard express this reaction to cold-PUA or whatever you want to call what you do.

-Ww

Some guys are dicks, yeah. Some are deceitful, repeat canned lines and fake stories, don't know how to take a hint when you're politely givin them the brush off. Some put up YouTube videos meeting girls on the street, pretending that later when the cameras are off those girls didn't quickly get bored of the little dance this clown and his camera was doing for them, and moved the fuck on.

But yo, some guys aren't that. Some are well adjusted, socially savvy, discreet, respectable cool guys who happen to see a girl on the street and feel that unmistakable pull of attraction that we've all felt at times and in places and with people we'd never've expected to. And those guys are savvy enough to know in a huge city like tokyo with millions of people chances are they're not gonna see that particular girl again, so fuck it, take the shot. Go for glory. Life's too short. Could mean a single naughty night of fun, could be the future mother of their kids. Could even be nothing but a cold stare and a hint well taken. Win, lose, whatever. Life's good. You won't see dumb YouTube videos of those guys, you won't find em making absurd promises they can get you laid instantly with any girl in exchange for your credit card details.They got nothing to prove or brag about, no interest in an ego stroke, no ulterior motive and nobody they feel accountable to for their actions except the man in the mirror.

And sure, some women like Alice don't like being cold-approached, while some women literally squeal with delight when it happens. Vive la difference.